Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Leveling is lazy development. Its where Lotro failed. They were adding in new levels and the actual content was severely lacking. Then they added more content (maps and quests) and stopped the leveling additions now people 'outlevel' content. SO they sell level inhibitors (like WOW).
ESO has a semi decent compromise, but even they dont get it exactly right. BUt not sure if there is an exactly right. There are still levels and leveling and points you spend as you level. But everything is shared so it is definitely not a grind when youre playing multiple toons. But most items are still level based. Which I guess is a staple of MMOs in general but with a diferent type of 'system' (that others have tried) you could bypass leveling altogether and go with skill or 'build' based type gearing system. (again others have tried it but not too successfully).
Want to use the best staff in the game? (for a particular "build") then I would make it a mandatory 3 maxed out requirements to equip it. Same with armors. I know many would hate that as it pigeon holes them maybe and with a system like that a respeccing system (that wasnt too expensive) would probably be semi necessary.
But they do have the mobs side fairly well done. Although IMO they could be even more difficult. But again most games now cater to ultra casuals who can youtube a build buy or make some gear then go out and shred open world mobs (even boss level types) with little to no effort. But in a genre on life support it hard to ask for too much beyond basic competence, and even that is nearly impossible as every developer and MMO coming down the pipeline (all 3 of them) all are going to have a PvP focus to them....
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Agree, I'm "level 13" in FO76 and love it.
However in a PVP focused game I too tire of leveling being a major factor of my PVP success.
Being you are an old L2 player you likely don't feel the same.
My problem with leveling is that it's much the same as it's always been, and jumping into a game and working my way to hero by killing 10 rats or delivering this nonsense is nothing but a time wastingtactics made for you to stay occupied, because they haven't created something actually fun for you to do. Don't get me wrong, as we can see by Warframe/Path of Exile's popularity, plenty of people enjoy that kind of grind for the sake of grinding, but I think it's safe to say most people don't which is part of the reason MMOs are on the decline and MOBA style games are on the rise.
How do you reconcile that view with the fact that traditionally non-grindy games (i.e. FPSs like Unreal Tournament or CoD) have moved towards adding leveling grinds for equipment, guns, cosmetics, and even heroes (such as in MOBAs)?
How is it that leveling is just so awful that multiple other genres have decided that's worth adding to their franchises, too?
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Agree, I'm "level 13" in FO76 and love it.
However in a PVP focused game I too tire of leveling being a major factor of my PVP success.
Being you are an old L2 player you likely don't feel the same.
My problem with leveling is that it's much the same as it's always been, and jumping into a game and working my way to hero by killing 10 rats or delivering this nonsense is nothing but a time wastingtactics made for you to stay occupied, because they haven't created something actually fun for you to do. Don't get me wrong, as we can see by Warframe/Path of Exile's popularity, plenty of people enjoy that kind of grind for the sake of grinding, but I think it's safe to say most people don't which is part of the reason MMOs are on the decline and MOBA style games are on the rise.
How do you reconcile that view with the fact that traditionally non-grindy games (i.e. FPSs like Unreal Tournament or CoD) have moved towards adding leveling grinds for equipment, guns, cosmetics, and even heroes (such as in MOBAs)?
How is it that leveling is just so awful that multiple other genres have decided that's worth adding to their franchises, too?
You answered your questions . There is a huge difference in "Adding in" and "designed in" . MMOs core design flaw is that levels were used to gate content and progression to give developers time to create new updates, it really has nothing to do with core game mechanics. FPS have added in a lot of elements to there genre to make it more engaging and rewarding to play. I've yet seen that type of involvement in mmo design that progressed in any one directions but vertical.
Shadowbane made leveling easy because that wasn't the core of the game, the core was the end sieging and pvp. Not 100% why the mmo genre continues to d drag players through numbers of levels that are exactly like every other game before it. It is old and boring.
Some folk may love to level, love that ding, but it is the most redundant and mediocre part of the mmo genre.
FOr those who insist trhrey love to level, why no love for Black Desert ?
Considering the prevalence of purchaseable boosts and lootboxes for the level grinds being added to so many of these, I would contest your assertion that they were "added in" or "designed in." They were definitely designed in, that design just has nothing to actually do with the gameplay experience in-match. It's about the design to coax more dollars outta their audience by adding a superfluous grind then providing options to lessen the sting of it.
Those leveling systems lasted about 2.76 seconds as just added depth before pubs went "Added depth? What's that? Added cash, now that speaks to me!"
That's not much different from how traditional MMORPGs used it, but the sub system actually had a cap and was a "if you enjoy working the grind, sub, if you dislike the grind, don't sub."
Now it's "Don't like the grind? (That's intentional!) Pay me."
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Hey you made a statement as "World According to Mars-Orbital" which was just bollocks.
There are many ways to play these games. If you are just being a mindless drone, grabbing quests and repeating ad nauseum to be high level no wonder you can't stand leveling.
For others, they bring part of themselves to the experience, create their own stories (actually create there own stories) and generally enjoy the world that is given to them.
That's why "in my humble opinion" I thing some gamers are their own worst enemies.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Agree, I'm "level 13" in FO76 and love it.
However in a PVP focused game I too tire of leveling being a major factor of my PVP success.
Being you are an old L2 player you likely don't feel the same.
My problem with leveling is that it's much the same as it's always been, and jumping into a game and working my way to hero by killing 10 rats or delivering this nonsense is nothing but a time wastingtactics made for you to stay occupied, because they haven't created something actually fun for you to do. Don't get me wrong, as we can see by Warframe/Path of Exile's popularity, plenty of people enjoy that kind of grind for the sake of grinding, but I think it's safe to say most people don't which is part of the reason MMOs are on the decline and MOBA style games are on the rise.
How do you reconcile that view with the fact that traditionally non-grindy games (i.e. FPSs like Unreal Tournament or CoD) have moved towards adding leveling grinds for equipment, guns, cosmetics, and even heroes (such as in MOBAs)?
How is it that leveling is just so awful that multiple other genres have decided that's worth adding to their franchises, too?
You answered your questions . There is a huge difference in "Adding in" and "designed in" . MMOs core design flaw is that levels were used to gate content and progression to give developers time to create new updates, it really has nothing to do with core game mechanics. FPS have added in a lot of elements to there genre to make it more engaging and rewarding to play. I've yet seen that type of involvement in mmo design that progressed in any one directions but vertical.
Shadowbane made leveling easy because that wasn't the core of the game, the core was the end sieging and pvp. Not 100% why the mmo genre continues to d drag players through numbers of levels that are exactly like every other game before it. It is old and boring.
Some folk may love to level, love that ding, but it is the most redundant and mediocre part of the mmo genre.
FOr those who insist trhrey love to level, why no love for Black Desert ?
Considering the prevalence of purchaseable boosts and lootboxes for the level grinds being added to so many of these, I would contest your assertion that they were "added in" or "designed in." They were definitely designed in, that design just has nothing to actually do with the gameplay experience in-match. It's about the design to coax more dollars outta their audience by adding a superfluous grind then providing options to lessen the sting of it.
Those leveling systems lasted about 2.76 seconds as just added depth before pubs went "Added depth? What's that? Added cash, now that speaks to me!"
That's not much different from how traditional MMORPGs used it, but the sub system actually had a cap and was a "if you enjoy working the grind, sub, if you dislike the grind, don't sub."
Now it's "Don't like the grind? (That's intentional!) Pay me."
So item malls existed in 20th century fps ? Lootboxes existed in 20th century FPSers ?
This thing were people need to hate just to hate needs to end and I call on the moderators to clamp down on the hate because it is simply uncivil and detracting from discussions.
This is a fact : FPS started in the 20th century long before loot boxes and other"item mall" content and any real subsantail level mechanism. Go in you blast things with weapons per l;evel on move on.. A good many mmo's started in the 20th century with a design of level progression. Its a fact, deal with it.
Then loot boxes became a normality through the adobtion of the Korean item mall : FACT .
To sit here and have to hold peoples hand through the history of gaming is so old and tirin special of people who are supposed to be these uber "look at my forum title , koodafadadoo" .. get over it . Pretty legendary at nothing but being an assshole.
First off: check your attitude. Stop acting like an asshat just because I disagree. None of my post attacked your person.
Secondly, a quick review of the best 90s shooters shows titles like Doom, Half-Life, Unreal Tournament.. Which of those included the level grind again? And by level, let's be clear (though this should honestly be obvious via context): I'm not talking about games with "levels" to play, as in the first map with baddies. I'm talking about the character or account leveling to unlock new cosmetics, guns, equipment, etc., something that definitely wasn't a part of 90s FPS multiplayer. Unreal Tournament had no grind to unlock new weapons; all non-starter weapons were to be taken from the map. I don't recall seeing folks grind out player character levels in Doom, either. Where are all these 90s character/account grinds for player/account unlockables that we see in titles like CoD, BF, and Overwatch today? IIRC, not even GoldenEye 007 used any sort of player or account progression like we see today. System Shock (EDIT- referring to SS2 here) is of note, which released in 1999, but is primarily an RPG, not an FPS (and, specifically, not an FPS with a competitive online component).
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Hey you made a statement as "World According to Mars-Orbital" which was just bollocks.
There are many ways to play these games. If you are just being a mindless drone, grabbing quests and repeating ad nauseum to be high level no wonder you can't stand leveling.
For others, they bring part of themselves to the experience, create their own stories (actually create there own stories) and generally enjoy the world that is given to them.
That's why "in my humble opinion" I thing some gamers are their own worst enemies.
I agree with that generally, but I do think you may be selling some of the mindless grind short. Sometimes, I enjoy putting on some music in my headphones and just doing some mindless task that's pretty fun to unwind.
Other times, I might wanna play something like XCom or Total War. I think there's room for both.
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Hey you made a statement as "World According to Mars-Orbital" which was just bollocks.
There are many ways to play these games. If you are just being a mindless drone, grabbing quests and repeating ad nauseum to be high level no wonder you can't stand leveling.
For others, they bring part of themselves to the experience, create their own stories (actually create there own stories) and generally enjoy the world that is given to them.
That's why "in my humble opinion" I thing some gamers are their own worst enemies.
according to 1 billion dollars generated by battle royale type games : facts
what level are you in Black Desert ?
And 2 weeks ago you were over in the bless forums telling us all how we were wrong and should hop in and play. FACT..............
As I recall he plays a wide rotation of games, in two or 3 week spurts and moves on to another set.
So either he likes everything...or he enjoys nothing to any great degree, not sure which.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm back from the future, just wanted to let you guys know this happened:
Apocalypse: Mobile was announced when everybody expected the Ashes of Creation MMORPG to finally launch.
Some dude asked if it was some kind of post April Fools Day joke at IntrepiCon, and it turned into a meme. Intrepids lead devs said they couldn't ignore the quick cash they garnered from the battle royale space so doing a mobile version took priority.
After much backlash they released a presser that said Ashes of Creation MMORPG is still in development. An industry insider on MMORPG.com said everyone who was upset is being unreasonable because mobile versions and battle royale = company money (like he's some shareholder not a gamer).
I got bored and time machined back.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
people are truly fooling themselves imho who think they want another mmo to "level" in.
I want another mmo to level in. Love leveling.
I started over again in Lord of the Rings Online with brand new characters so I could level again.
Hey you made a statement as "World According to Mars-Orbital" which was just bollocks.
There are many ways to play these games. If you are just being a mindless drone, grabbing quests and repeating ad nauseum to be high level no wonder you can't stand leveling.
For others, they bring part of themselves to the experience, create their own stories (actually create there own stories) and generally enjoy the world that is given to them.
That's why "in my humble opinion" I thing some gamers are their own worst enemies.
according to 1 billion dollars generated by battle royale type games : facts
what level are you in Black Desert ?
And 2 weeks ago you were over in the bless forums telling us all how we were wrong and should hop in and play. FACT..............
As I recall he plays a wide rotation of games, in two or 3 week spurts and moves on to another set.
So either he likes everything...or he enjoys nothing to any great degree, not sure which.
Life in the middle....
From all that and the posts here, I'm thinking someone needs to hit the pharmacy for a refill on their medicine.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
However in a PVP focused game I too tire of leveling being a major factor of my PVP success.
Being you are an old L2 player you likely don't feel the same.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ESO has a semi decent compromise, but even they dont get it exactly right. BUt not sure if there is an exactly right. There are still levels and leveling and points you spend as you level. But everything is shared so it is definitely not a grind when youre playing multiple toons. But most items are still level based. Which I guess is a staple of MMOs in general but with a diferent type of 'system' (that others have tried) you could bypass leveling altogether and go with skill or 'build' based type gearing system. (again others have tried it but not too successfully).
Want to use the best staff in the game? (for a particular "build") then I would make it a mandatory 3 maxed out requirements to equip it. Same with armors. I know many would hate that as it pigeon holes them maybe and with a system like that a respeccing system (that wasnt too expensive) would probably be semi necessary.
But they do have the mobs side fairly well done. Although IMO they could be even more difficult. But again most games now cater to ultra casuals who can youtube a build buy or make some gear then go out and shred open world mobs (even boss level types) with little to no effort. But in a genre on life support it hard to ask for too much beyond basic competence, and even that is nearly impossible as every developer and MMO coming down the pipeline (all 3 of them) all are going to have a PvP focus to them....
How is it that leveling is just so awful that multiple other genres have decided that's worth adding to their franchises, too?
Those leveling systems lasted about 2.76 seconds as just added depth before pubs went "Added depth? What's that? Added cash, now that speaks to me!"
That's not much different from how traditional MMORPGs used it, but the sub system actually had a cap and was a "if you enjoy working the grind, sub, if you dislike the grind, don't sub."
Now it's "Don't like the grind? (That's intentional!) Pay me."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Secondly, a quick review of the best 90s shooters shows titles like Doom, Half-Life, Unreal Tournament.. Which of those included the level grind again? And by level, let's be clear (though this should honestly be obvious via context): I'm not talking about games with "levels" to play, as in the first map with baddies. I'm talking about the character or account leveling to unlock new cosmetics, guns, equipment, etc., something that definitely wasn't a part of 90s FPS multiplayer. Unreal Tournament had no grind to unlock new weapons; all non-starter weapons were to be taken from the map. I don't recall seeing folks grind out player character levels in Doom, either. Where are all these 90s character/account grinds for player/account unlockables that we see in titles like CoD, BF, and Overwatch today? IIRC, not even GoldenEye 007 used any sort of player or account progression like we see today. System Shock (EDIT- referring to SS2 here) is of note, which released in 1999, but is primarily an RPG, not an FPS (and, specifically, not an FPS with a competitive online component).
Other times, I might wanna play something like XCom or Total War. I think there's room for both.
So either he likes everything...or he enjoys nothing to any great degree, not sure which.
Life in the middle....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Apocalypse: Mobile was announced when everybody expected the Ashes of Creation MMORPG to finally launch.
Some dude asked if it was some kind of post April Fools Day joke at IntrepiCon, and it turned into a meme. Intrepids lead devs said they couldn't ignore the quick cash they garnered from the battle royale space so doing a mobile version took priority.
After much backlash they released a presser that said Ashes of Creation MMORPG is still in development. An industry insider on MMORPG.com said everyone who was upset is being unreasonable because mobile versions and battle royale = company money (like he's some shareholder not a gamer).
I got bored and time machined back.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯