So, survival games...bleh

Kyleran

WargfootYV said:

iixviiiix said:

Do you win in survival games ?

This is the kind of question my parents would ask me when I first introduced them to computer games.  They don't understand anything that doesn't have a win condition granted in 30 minutes or less.  The idea that a game lasts up until you don't want to play anymore is foreign to them.

What? Didn't they ever play Monopoly?

 

bigtime102

or what if they made the games in real time, like real day night cycle taking 24 hours, and where your movement speed was real too, so it would take you a couple minutes to walk a block.  That would be funny, or if you had to alternative between space and shift keys to put one foot infront of the other while balancing your center of gravity with your mouse.  That would be a lotta fun!

MadFrenchie

Sovrath said:

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:0

Iselin said:

I hate tedious micromanagement in games and it just boggles my mind that a whole genre was created that features the eat/drink micromanagement as a core feature.

I don't touch survival games... period.

I cant remember the name of the game but there was one in EA where by you gathered all teh ingredients, cooked, then ate it took about 2 hours.....then what you ate only lasted a few minutes and you had to do it all over again......The game never made it past alpha and all the testers were trying to tell them why but they wouldnt listen......Eating/drinking as a feature is not fun.

I've have mostly eliminated eating issues in FO76 but drinking is still vexing so I'm going to have to spend a few Perk points to alleviate.

In last nights play session I had to make two batches of 25 boiled water, one at start, another a few hours in, and by time I logged I've got 10 left. 

At least three times I got the "thirsty" warning, once right in middle of a massive fight, which distracted me greatly.

I guess this is intentional,  they want me to extend my playing time by forcing me to take these biology QOL Perks early and deferring combat and crafting ones until higher levels.

I'm not a fan of this approach as it delays me from building the character I want, when I want. (Along with the disagreeable RNG determined perk acquisition process.)

You see that’s why I like survival mechanics. I like being in the middle of a fight and suddenly exhaustion or hunger and having to fight for my life or try to run. It adds another axis to the encounter. Happened to me while playing through someone’s Skyrim mod where I was fighting several draugr and the exhaustion/hunger (whatever it was) kicked in. I was using the survival dlc from Bethesda. 

I ended up winning by the skin of my teeth and still remember the encounter fondly.

for me survival mechanics are greater than punching bushes or collecting rocks. They are another way one must maintain a character.

But that kind of exhaustion/hunger coming up in a fight or flight scenario would have to see the organism dangerously exhausted/hungry prior to the fight or flight event starting.  Adrenaline suppresses both; having a hunger or thirst bar deplete into dangerous territory while being chased or fighting isn't something that would realistically occur unless said event lasts for an abnormally long time (i.e. how our species ancestors first hunted game, by harassing and chasing nonstop it until it literally fell over from heat exhaustion or bled out).

Kyleran

kjempff said:

DMKano said:

kjempff said:

I got Ark back when it landed on Steam. On paper those survival games sound like they are challenging with progression and feeling of accomplishment, but I just get bored so fast with the tediousness of the "realism"..atleast for Ark as I haven't really had the urge to try another one after that.

Maybe it is just not my genre, but I think if those games should interest me more they need to improve on the tediousness of very basic stuff. Like don't make me spend half an hour to restock basic food and weapons just to go explore a bit..I need some mechanics to automize that after I did the progression once or a few times.

Does that mess with the basics of survival games for those who actually enjoy them? If there is one thing I don't want is to be like all those who messed up my mmorps because THEY didn't like the basics of mmorpgs.

So you dont find any fun in punching trees and running around and spamming E to collect berries?

Not repeatedly. But my point was also that some stuff in mmos that feel extremely tedious to others, I may be totally fine with, so it is hard to point at tediousness as the only problem. Maybe I just don't buy in to the survival setting in current survival games ? Shrug,

Almost all MMORPGs have tedious activities, especially in PVE grinding is almost a core pillar 

I don't mind such activities if they further my progression,  heck at one point in EVE I mined relentlessly for 2.5 years, but at the same time probably earned almost a 100B ISK doing so.

In survival games eating and drinking are tedious time wasters which serve no purpose except to handicap my progression efforts, which I do not care for.

In reading this thread I understand FO76 really is survival light compared to other games in the genre, which I defintely am sure I wouldn't enjoy.

Sovrath

MadFrenchie said:

Sovrath said:

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:0

Iselin said:

I hate tedious micromanagement in games and it just boggles my mind that a whole genre was created that features the eat/drink micromanagement as a core feature.

I don't touch survival games... period.

I cant remember the name of the game but there was one in EA where by you gathered all teh ingredients, cooked, then ate it took about 2 hours.....then what you ate only lasted a few minutes and you had to do it all over again......The game never made it past alpha and all the testers were trying to tell them why but they wouldnt listen......Eating/drinking as a feature is not fun.

I've have mostly eliminated eating issues in FO76 but drinking is still vexing so I'm going to have to spend a few Perk points to alleviate.

In last nights play session I had to make two batches of 25 boiled water, one at start, another a few hours in, and by time I logged I've got 10 left. 

At least three times I got the "thirsty" warning, once right in middle of a massive fight, which distracted me greatly.

I guess this is intentional,  they want me to extend my playing time by forcing me to take these biology QOL Perks early and deferring combat and crafting ones until higher levels.

I'm not a fan of this approach as it delays me from building the character I want, when I want. (Along with the disagreeable RNG determined perk acquisition process.)

You see that’s why I like survival mechanics. I like being in the middle of a fight and suddenly exhaustion or hunger and having to fight for my life or try to run. It adds another axis to the encounter. Happened to me while playing through someone’s Skyrim mod where I was fighting several draugr and the exhaustion/hunger (whatever it was) kicked in. I was using the survival dlc from Bethesda. 

I ended up winning by the skin of my teeth and still remember the encounter fondly.

for me survival mechanics are greater than punching bushes or collecting rocks. They are another way one must maintain a character.

But that kind of exhaustion/hunger coming up in a fight or flight scenario would have to see the organism dangerously exhausted/hungry prior to the fight or flight event starting.  Adrenaline suppresses both; having a hunger or thirst bar deplete into dangerous territory while being chased or fighting isn't something that would realistically occur unless said event lasts for an abnormally long time (i.e. how our species ancestors first hunted game, by harassing and chasing nonstop it until it literally fell over from heat exhaustion or bled out).

Whi

MadFrenchie said:

Sovrath said:

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:0

Iselin said:

I hate tedious micromanagement in games and it just boggles my mind that a whole genre was created that features the eat/drink micromanagement as a core feature.

I don't touch survival games... period.

I cant remember the name of the game but there was one in EA where by you gathered all teh ingredients, cooked, then ate it took about 2 hours.....then what you ate only lasted a few minutes and you had to do it all over again......The game never made it past alpha and all the testers were trying to tell them why but they wouldnt listen......Eating/drinking as a feature is not fun.

I've have mostly eliminated eating issues in FO76 but drinking is still vexing so I'm going to have to spend a few Perk points to alleviate.

In last nights play session I had to make two batches of 25 boiled water, one at start, another a few hours in, and by time I logged I've got 10 left. 

At least three times I got the "thirsty" warning, once right in middle of a massive fight, which distracted me greatly.

I guess this is intentional,  they want me to extend my playing time by forcing me to take these biology QOL Perks early and deferring combat and crafting ones until higher levels.

I'm not a fan of this approach as it delays me from building the character I want, when I want. (Along with the disagreeable RNG determined perk acquisition process.)

You see that’s why I like survival mechanics. I like being in the middle of a fight and suddenly exhaustion or hunger and having to fight for my life or try to run. It adds another axis to the encounter. Happened to me while playing through someone’s Skyrim mod where I was fighting several draugr and the exhaustion/hunger (whatever it was) kicked in. I was using the survival dlc from Bethesda. 

I ended up winning by the skin of my teeth and still remember the encounter fondly.

for me survival mechanics are greater than punching bushes or collecting rocks. They are another way one must maintain a character.

But that kind of exhaustion/hunger coming up in a fight or flight scenario would have to see the organism dangerously exhausted/hungry prior to the fight or flight event starting.  Adrenaline suppresses both; having a hunger or thirst bar deplete into dangerous territory while being chased or fighting isn't something that would realistically occur unless said event lasts for an abnormally long time (i.e. how our species ancestors first hunted game, by harassing and chasing nonstop it until it literally fell over from heat exhaustion or bled out).

While that's true, I've also been in a fight (when I was young) that found both me and my opponent very tired. I'm pretty sure that if either of us were in MUCH better shape than the other the fight would have ended differently (as opposed to the draw).

I've done physical things that found me very hungry in the middle of the activity as well.

Again, it's a non-issue for me and I find that I like it. This goes back to the "not all games are for everyone" statement.

They're not.

But we have people kvetching about them when the only appropriate thing to do is "not to play them."

This is not to say that every survival game does it right or that over all any do it "quite right" but it is a mechanic that can be intriguing for those who like it.

Kyleran

Sovrath said:

Kyleran said:

Theocritus said:0

Iselin said:

I hate tedious micromanagement in games and it just boggles my mind that a whole genre was created that features the eat/drink micromanagement as a core feature.

I don't touch survival games... period.

I cant remember the name of the game but there was one in EA where by you gathered all teh ingredients, cooked, then ate it took about 2 hours.....then what you ate only lasted a few minutes and you had to do it all over again......The game never made it past alpha and all the testers were trying to tell them why but they wouldnt listen......Eating/drinking as a feature is not fun.

I've have mostly eliminated eating issues in FO76 but drinking is still vexing so I'm going to have to spend a few Perk points to alleviate.

In last nights play session I had to make two batches of 25 boiled water, one at start, another a few hours in, and by time I logged I've got 10 left. 

At least three times I got the "thirsty" warning, once right in middle of a massive fight, which distracted me greatly.

I guess this is intentional,  they want me to extend my playing time by forcing me to take these biology QOL Perks early and deferring combat and crafting ones until higher levels.

I'm not a fan of this approach as it delays me from building the character I want, when I want. (Along with the disagreeable RNG determined perk acquisition process.)

You see that’s why I like survival mechanics. I like being in the middle of a fight and suddenly exhaustion or hunger and having to fight for my life or try to run. It adds another axis to the encounter. Happened to me while playing through someone’s Skyrim mod where I was fighting several draugr and the exhaustion/hunger (whatever it was) kicked in. I was using the survival dlc from Bethesda. 

I ended up winning by the skin of my teeth and still remember the encounter fondly.

for me survival mechanics are greater than punching bushes or collecting rocks. They are another way one must maintain a character.

Just another way to present either a character's buffs wearing off or enemy debuffing you to increase the difficulty of the fight.

Difference is afterwards you have to spend 15 to 30 minutes (or more) afterwards replenishing supplies just to continue your journey, which does nothing except pointlessly hinder my progession.

I wouldn't dream of playing Skyrim with an intentional survival mode, (did not like the game anyways)  but same goes for Fallout 4, only tried its most difficult suvival mode once  and quit fairly quickly.

I didn't need the extra "realism" of no fast travel,  saving only at camps, though the extra fight difficulty was fine, hence I now play it at one notch down. 

Extra challenge is fine, extra and pointless tedium, not so much.

Progression is the most important pillar in all RPG games for me (it's what the "P" stands for, right?)

Challenge, crafting, fun, puzzles, socialization? All just secondary and only useful in so much as they are necessary to support progression.

Hawkaya399

Kyleran said:

(skip)

Fallout 4 was nothing like this, I never had to eat or drink anything, chems were purely optional and I rarely took them as I “don’t do drugs”.  

So, I have to ask, who really finds this part of survival games “fun?”  People have said they often thought survival games were what MMORPGS should have become, but I have to disagree.

It reminds me of playing the early RPG’s, one reason I did not care for the early Ultima series vs Might and Magic or some others is you always had to “feed” your characters, at an annoying rate IMO.  

So time for a poll, who really enjoys this mechanic, or are you more like me and could do without even the level Fallout 76 uses?

I know you're older than me, if I am to believe one of your prior posts, so I can't use the argument you're the new generation (i am 41 btw). I like these mechanics mostly. I'm somewhere between  "Hell yes, realism is what I live for," and "I enjoy survival mechanics and have no issue with them...". I think these mechanics are just old games coming back to life. A lot of old RPGs or adventure games, for example, were harsh. Newer games toned it down, so what happened is a survival genre was created.

I started playing Wurm ONline in 2012 and it's like Xsyon in a lot of ways. I've never played Xsyon, but it always interested me for the same reasons, like Mortal Online. Wurm Online back then was very humble. The wiki was in-game. It was a strong sandbox and almost never held your hand. It was dagnerous in teh world. No map. No radar. Corpse runs. Very thrilling. I loved it beyond description. I can't express that enough.

In my MMORPG/MMO experiencews, I've repeatedly encountered the SAME conflicts with other players. Generally, I always want more difficulty/dangers and conflicts and limits and non-linear progressions. I hate quest hubs. I hate fast experience. I love things like gear holes and death penalty and limited fast travel. But most players I've met don't agree at all. It's very hard for me to ever find anybody on the same wavelength. It does happen. It has made it hard for me to find an MMO I enjoy. Even in Wurm Online I found myself disagreeing with most of the people in chat. Most of them aren't on the PvP servers and they complain about things I enjoy. I got so irritated I sometimes disabled chat so I wouldn't be tempted to argue.

Gutlard

Tedious mechanics are tedious. Is the rest of the gameplay fun? Who gives a damn?

Gut Out!

Kyleran

Hawkaya399 said:

Kyleran said:

(skip)

Fallout 4 was nothing like this, I never had to eat or drink anything, chems were purely optional and I rarely took them as I “don’t do drugs”.  

So, I have to ask, who really finds this part of survival games “fun?”  People have said they often thought survival games were what MMORPGS should have become, but I have to disagree.

It reminds me of playing the early RPG’s, one reason I did not care for the early Ultima series vs Might and Magic or some others is you always had to “feed” your characters, at an annoying rate IMO.  

So time for a poll, who really enjoys this mechanic, or are you more like me and could do without even the level Fallout 76 uses?

I know you're older than me, if I am to believe one of your prior posts, so I can't use the argument you're the new generation (i am 41 btw). I like these mechanics mostly. I'm somewhere between  "Hell yes, realism is what I live for," and "I enjoy survival mechanics and have no issue with them...". I think these mechanics are just old games coming back to life. A lot of old RPGs or adventure games, for example, were harsh. Newer games toned it down, so what happened is a survival genre was created.

I started playing Wurm ONline in 2012 and it's like Xsyon in a lot of ways. I've never played Xsyon, but it always interested me for the same reasons, like Mortal Online. Wurm Online back then was very humble. The wiki was in-game. It was a strong sandbox and almost never held your hand. It was dagnerous in teh world. No map. No radar. Corpse runs. Very thrilling. I loved it beyond description. I can't express that enough.

In my MMORPG/MMO experiencews, I've repeatedly encountered the SAME conflicts with other players. Generally, I always want more difficulty/dangers and conflicts and limits and non-linear progressions. I hate quest hubs. I hate fast experience. I love things like gear holes and death penalty and limited fast travel. But most players I've met don't agree at all. It's very hard for me to ever find anybody on the same wavelength. It does happen. It has made it hard for me to find an MMO I enjoy. Even in Wurm Online I found myself disagreeing with most of the people in chat. Most of them aren't on the PvP servers and they complain about things I enjoy. I got so irritated I sometimes disabled chat so I wouldn't be tempted to argue.

I'm not against extra challenge, though an affirmed carebear I've often played PVP centric games or servers for the extra challenge over a pure PVE environment. 

I would much prefer designs with more challenging combat, or trying to profit and survive evading opponents, npc or players is fine.

I am not entertained by tedious (to me) mechanics to sustain basic life functions.

I"ll gladly mine ore in EVE all day, because I can sell it which feeds my progression.

In FO76 I find it somewhat hateful to start every session harvest my crops (easy), pumping out 50 dirty waters (painful), 1st crafting them into 25 boiled waters, (annoying) then crafting again with my crops to make 25 drinks or food. (A good 20 minute process E2E)

Off to adventure right? Nope, have to check carry capacity, stash extra junk in stash, unless it's full (argh, of course it is)

Back to tinkerers bench, create a bunch of "bulk mats" to sell as vendors often only buy them.   Whoops, love on plastic, so can't create as many packs as I'd like. (Damn, 5-10 min.)

So, bulk packages aren't any lighter,  have to sell them to vendor.  Fast travel to 1st vendor.  (5 caps) Nuts, has no caps and for some damn reason I can't directly pay or swap goods, have to sell and buy only using caps.

Fast travel to next vendor (14 caps)  get lucky, has 200 caps).  Quickly deplete caps, but still over weight.  So either put stuff back in stash, keep blowing caps fast traveling to vendors, or plan my adventures to be near vendors.(10 to 20 min)

But wait theres more (f#@k) Forgot to scavage for Ballistic Fiber, the rarest and most needed crafting mat for my build.  Only one solid source,  miltary base which I built my base right next to, as I visit it at the start, end and often anytime I fast travel back to base. (Its free at least)

At best I'll find 3 military "bags" (proving Bethedsa devs have a warped sense of humor/irony) which net 3 fibers each.

On a bad day I'll find zero as others have picked it clean, hence the 2 or 3 visits a day.

All told I easily spend an hour every day on these and other "unproductive" activities which keep me from progressing my character or exploring, my two favorite activities. 

The stupid stash limit keeps me from fully enjoying another favorite past time, gathering and selling, becomes an agony of choices to pick something up or not, especially as I near my max character weight limit.

All of these "activities" are strategic choices I realize, but I don't enjoy such, especially when it's all about minimizing pain and not directly increasing my progression efficiency.

Finally  I should mention, I dislike crafting, only doing it when forced to and if it directly supports my progression .

My settlements in FO4 never have more than the bare necessities, crops to harvest, hand water pumps usually, sleeping bags in a shelter, and tons of gun turrets for defense. 

Forget things like chairs, tables, lights, they dont need them.

dave6660

Survival games sound great on paper when I read about them.  Then I try them out and I'm bored within the hour.  I've since written off the entire genre.

Octagon7711

How about a monk skill line in which through meditation everyday I can learn to go weeks without food and water and still be healthy and strong?  Or eat a magic mushroom that gives me a spirit vision showing me where some lost hidden supplies are?  How about finding an baby animal and by feeding him he becomes my pet and can be used for tracking and fighting assists?  Every once in awhile he would leave and come back with a squirrel or other small animals for dinner?

Most are eat, sleep, drink, gather, build, stay warm, try not to get sick, fight off or kill animals for food, try not to get your stuff taken or take someones elses stuff to survive.  Rinse and repeat.  Others actually through in quest lines so there's something more to do.

Phry

ZoeMcCloskey said:

Tiller said:

Star Wars Galaxies was almost a survival game. You had wounds and fullness from drink and food, tiredness form running ect ect. I thought that was going to be the standard in MMOs when I first started playing it, but nope. Honestly that's the only level of survivalness I can stand. Still thinking of checking out Atlas though.

Also liked that you had to go to different people for different types of wounds.  Though they could have added a Psychiatrist and/or Psychologist class to heal mind wounds also instead of just having to go watch exotic Dancers or listen to music.

I guarantee that given the choice between watching exotic dancers or seeing a psychiatrist, that very few people are going to choose the 'what do you see in the inkblot' option 

Cryomatrix

@Kyleran

Your posts are wonderfully detailed and well written. It's always fun reading them. You're such a detail oriented gamer. 

Why not try another survival game. 

like Subnautica or Conan exiles?

The only survival game i played was Conan exiles and I didn't find it too tedious. I played Subnautica for 2 hours (post-PoE death sulking) and the first 30 minutes is tedious but once you grind a few mats, you should be good. My goal is not to die in the game once, i didn't set the mode on, but i haven't died yet. Playing Path Of Exile in HC mode, makes a person run away when life bar hits half. 

Kyleran

Cryomatrix said:

@Kyleran

Your posts are wonderfully detailed and well written. It's always fun reading them. You're such a detail oriented gamer. 

Why not try another survival game. 

like Subnautica or Conan exiles?

The only survival game i played was Conan exiles and I didn't find it too tedious. I played Subnautica for 2 hours (post-PoE death sulking) and the first 30 minutes is tedious but once you grind a few mats, you should be good. My goal is not to die in the game once, i didn't set the mode on, but i haven't died yet. Playing Path Of Exile in HC mode, makes a person run away when life bar hits half. 

Thanks, I do enjoy sharing my gaming experiences,  good to know someone reads them on occasion.

I've got a copy of CE and will likely give it a go someday.  (Also 7 Days to Die)

Subnautica I'm less interested in because ...you know...cats and water...  

As for not dieing in a game not really possible between my "Netflixtion" and gaming while seated in the "recliner of deep relaxation."