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What happened to the "Hardcore 90's"???
LilFunaho
Member UncommonPosts: 30
Why is it that at the turn of the century, gamers suddenly disliked the idea of challenge in their games? No more losing items or gold. No more having to walk for 10-20 minutes to get to where you want to go. No more death penalties. No more open-pvp. No more fear of death.
Why doesn't every game just come with a godmode and infinite ammo cheat?
What the hell happened?
I have desperately been on the hunt for games that aren't so incredibly easy and mind-numbing and have yet to find one. I mean I'm pretty much constantly playing at least one MMORPG at a time and I have maxed out characters on many games. Two of the hottest titles were released within the last year, that is WoW and EQ2.
I chose EQ2 and got my char maxed out and was there for server firsts on pretty much all the ubers. There was only one single uber mob that was a challenge. It took us about 10-15 tries to kill him (Darathar), and when we finally did kill him, a patch went in that made it so killing him was incredibly easy. However, for one single night I felt like we actually accomplished something that was actually hard, a feeling I had not felt in a long time. Too bad I would never feel it again in that game.
Then I moved to WoW. I felt like I was playing EQ2 on cartoon network. Don't get me wrong, this isn't about knocking WoW, the game is really well done and probably very fun. However, it had the same cookie cutter template as every other MMORPG out there. It was the same old crap remodeled and repainted to be a new product. It was all very easy and very time consuming.
What happened to the hardcore game concepts of the 90's?
Death penalties: The conception of these new "debt" systems has totally destroyed the challenges that were present beforehand. Before this debt system is was actually possible to be anti-productive when playing. Personally, if someone is stupid enough to die in these easy games, they should have some incentive to learn how to act smart and play smart.
Transportation: I remember back in games when I actually had to have my own little adventures just to get to certain places. The time and challenge of getting to a hunting spot was actually a preventitive to overcrowding. Now you can click some portal or cast (insert teleport spell here) and be within a 2 minute walk of wherever you wanted to go.
Open-PvP: I know this topic gets touched a lot but it really was an awesome system, unfortunately it rarely works. The best case of where it actually did work was back in UO - Pre:Ren. People hated PK's and that was that. But at least the PK's had such harsh penalties for dying that not every testosterone pumped teen would go out and become one. This game had a nice balance of penalties vrs rewards for PK's that it severely limited the number of PK's on a server. I remember starting the game and getting murdered within the first week while mining or chopping wood. I was pretty mad but I thought the fact that it could happen was the coolest thing ever. From then on I had something that any gamer of post-2000 has never felt before, and that is the fear of death. Everytime I left town I was on guard, and I never left with anything I couldn't afford to lose, and if i did i was scared the entire time. Due to the corpse-looting system in which you could take anything on another player, you had no choice but to be afraid to die. This led to some of the biggest blood-pumping rushes that I have ever experienced in a MMORPG. I lost a lot of items and a lot of hard-earned gold in those days, and you know what? I loved it.
What you own ends up owning you: This was taken from Fight Club, and it is the way just about any current MMORPG is run. Your equipment and items are what define you. The thought of losing any of these items on death would make a lot of people very worried and very angry. Games need to shift their focus from making "over 1,000,000 different breastplates" to actually having decent content and not the same template as every other game. Where's the innovation?
Fear of death: In my opinion this concept should be in every single MMO game out there. Games like to stress immersion, yet they leave this basic psychological concept out. How can I feel immersed in a game if I really don't care if my character dies? A lot of these PVP battleground type games I've seen, the victim loses absolutely nothing whereas the killer gets rewarded with some sort of PVP Points or Realm points. This is the most dull and unimaginative system I have ever heard of. Nothing kills a PVP battle moment than knowing that the guy you just killed can walk back in a matter of minutes with all his gear, all his hitpoints, and not a care in the world if he was to die again. Think about it, you and your friends fight the best battle you've ever fought: everyone is coordinated, on the same wavelength, and everyone acts quick and reacts even quicker. You finally win then you realize that within 10 minutes that other team is going to be regrouped, full health, and absolutely not care that they just lost cause it didn't cost them a thing, and all you have to show for it is some battle points you could have gotten from pickin off strays. Nothing is a bigger bonerkiller than players having no fear of death.
All I'm wondering is what the hell happened to all of this?
When did your average gamer become such a softy carebear?
I know a lot of other people feel the same way regarding penalties and challenges within MMORPG's now, I've been hearing it for a few years now. Why hasn't any designer come up with a solution to satisfy this market niche? I know its there.
Anyway, I just wanted to post to get a feel for what others think about this.
Also, post any other penalty type concepts you remember or that are currently in effect and why you think they are crucial.
--Lilfunaho
merp4life@yahoo.com
___________________
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
Comments
i totally agree
Omg I really agree with this.........
Without a lot of these things, mmorpgs become mindless to play because there is nothing to lose.
I only had one bad experience with dying, and that was in Diable 2 LOD Hardcore on Bnet when my level 90+ druid got PKed by a sorc in like a hit =( but hey, even that was fun because I knew that character was going down the tubes someday...
Your post makes me think of a really cool mmorpg idea........something where dying actually means you die and have to start over......like a Hardcore mode mmorpg. Maybe small tidbits carry over from your last character, like map information and quest tips, or maybe you could write things on your maps for "future adventurers" which would actually just be one of your other characters.
I would find this type of game fascinating fun, because poor players would either learn to improve or quit..
All characters could also have biological life clocks, like you character like for 60 game years, which could be x months days or years...
I would find that amazingly fun to play. Really cool post btw thanks ^_^
Totally agree with this post.
Well i think you belong (like me and few others on this site) to a dying breed of mmorpg gamers.
The ones who were in college/university and the young couples who started playing mmorpg in the 90s.
Now the mmorpg have to target at a new crowd and a new generation of gamers.
I wish one company will take up the challenge to bring back challenging mmorpgs back.They might not sell millions but might hit a few hundred thousands which is also very profitable.
Asheron's Call - Darktide.
More MMORPGs today need to base their PvP on that.
I'm from that era, but it was MUD's I grew up on. Full PK muds though, full loot, exp loss...same deal. I too, miss some of the challenge and the adrenaline rush, although I tend to forget about the frustrations that came with it, many times as I look back nostalgically.
I've heard great things about EvE onlines PvP system, but unfortunately am involved with another game right now. Supposedly there is a harsh penalty for dying, and they allow players to police themselves through a system of checks and balances. There are pirates, and bounty hunters who keep them in check for example. This is all second hand information though, as I only played for a few days, before running into other commitments. I liked what I saw when I was there, and as long as you don't mind not being able to get out of your ship, it might be a nice change of pace.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Wonderful post, LilFunaho. I fully agree !!!
It is so wrong to take away the thrill of fearing to be killed (by a PC or NPC - doesnt matter).
If you want that kind of game then play: Eve online!
Death can set you back months if you don't get a clone and insure your ship etc!
PVP is fully open and very unforgiving which brings it back to death ^
It's a hard game and does a new type of skill system and takes skill
Stop flaming other mmorpgs because alot of people don't like what you want and go play eve online!
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Don't click here...no2
This is probably one of the best posts, I have ever seen on this very subject. You hit the nail on the head.
I don't know why, but I think it's quite similar to the attitude of society, in the Loss vs Gain department. People always focus on the loss, more than the gain. With this attitude things like full loot won't ever happen again, and that saddens me, I missed out on mmo's in the 90's but I am constantly reminded how much more fun pvp was when theres a loss/gain element to it.
Like you say, someone just needs to have the balls to give it a go, maybe just open 1 server where they set a so called ''hardcore'' rule set, if they do, they usually end up the most popular server, and thats good because pvp servers only require one thing, people.
I completly agree with the OP, recently i have gone back to eve online after giving up on WoW and im asking myself why i ever quit eve in the first place
Im looking forward to D&DO having a good overall dificulty setting and next year im also looking forward to trying Vanguard, wich seems to be a new "hardcore" take on mmorpg´s, just have to wait and see.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
I'll tell you what happened.
We got sick of spending hours of our game time on bullshit. There need to be other ways to make death painful, rather than wasting my time.
Everquest was a fuckin joke. 20 minute walk to get your corpse, no thanks, people looting your body that took weeks to camp all your equipment, blah no thanks.
The way I see it, pvp only works with a fast respawn, otherwise you just end up with a really harsh game.
I mean why do you play a game? To be entertained or to "feel meaninful penalties."
To me, a game doesn't need to make me feel anything to be entertaining, I am perfectly fine with competing with others in a way that isn't meanspirited. You can compete without having ppl hate each other, games that are hardcore pvp will make you want to murder someone in RL, it ceases to be entertainment. Take that guy in China who killed someone over a virtual sword, of course in a game like Lineage people are willing to rob steal cheat kill do anything to get ahead, if ppl's address were public there would be more murders, thats how meanspirited these games turn people.
Is that really what you want?
Honestly if someone wronged me in Eve Online, and if I knew where they lived, they would have a pretty good chance of finding the body somewhere, thats how powerful the negative emotions are, thats no longer a GAME, thats a virtual world, a second life, I already live in dog eat dog world, why do I need a second one.
Playing Fallen Earth.
We were wondering the exact same thing, so we decided to pack all of that old school goodness into our games: Check us out.
1. Permadeath for main characters*
2. Harsh death penalties for regular characters*
3. Teleporation is reserved for only the most dedicated spellcasters
4. Open PvP
5. Full looting
6. Realistic movement rates, carrying capacities, and damage threshholds
7. Skill-based, not class-based
8. PvP with a purpose; conquer territories, control resources, earn tax revenue, lead NPC armies
Does all of that sound too hardcore? If it does, consider the fact that it's all optional. You choose your level of involvement and your place on the risk vs. reward curve.* Want to be a carebear and rest assured that you'll never really lose anything? Okay, but you'll never be a hero or villain either, just another pawn working for others (NPCs or PCs). Are you ready to take the next step and put it all on the line, death or glory? We welcome you to take the risk, because that's where you cross the line from "player" into "legend."
* All players choose to be "regular" or "main" characters, where regulars are basically the same as in all modern day MMORPGs, and mains learn faster, achieve higher skills, have access to special quest content, rule territories, lead guilds... and permanently die.
_____ ____ ___ __ _
Visit MMO Center today to discover the future of subscription MMORPGs! Brought to you by Rapid Reality.
Even if these games just added servers with a tougher gameplay style and more competitive PvP... I'd be contented.
Asheron's Call (Darktide) was the last game that had that(not as deeply as I'd like but still good), but now it's a little bit gone. Uncreative patches to fix bugs exploits and annoyances that could have had better solutions have really numbed the game. It's early days when high level was 60 (not 220) was the best PvP time I've ever had, guilds fighting over cities and a level 10 could still hurt a level 60 in a group battle. But now everyone knows the game and it's too easy...
One of the main problems for PvP is that many games are originally designed for those who are competitively challenged, those people who can't stand the though of competiting or having an advantage from competing with other players. We all know them, they are the ones who hated it when they were 10 years old and their older brother jimmy rubbed it in their face that he beat them at 'Monopoly' or some other competitive board game. They now bring their feelings of anger to the MMORPG community.
I have yet to find a game that truly meets all of my requirments as a good game in my books. There are several games out there that have the pieces of what I want but lack in the other areas.. Character Control and ability design(like mind control) - WoW, Meaning Full Guilds/World Politics - Shadowbane + Asheron's Call(OldSchool Darktide), Interesting and different character classes - SWG, OPEN PvP with Penalty/Risk for Murder/Random Player Killing(Not truly seen yet, but I'm a post 2000 MMO player)
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT:
We are NOT the majority, we are a NICHE that is yet to be fulfilled in the market. We are people who truly love MMO's for what makes them a challenge... We aren't playing to mindlessly slaughter NPC's and show off 'UBAR' items to our friends. We want challenging NPC's and Competition between Players with Added Risk in case we make a bad decision... or our guild declares war over contested territory.
The truth of any game that doesn't have what we want, is that it's really just gaining levels to gain more levels in the process of gaining levels to show of uber loot to friends that will help you gain more levels. That's what this mindless generation of MMO Players wants... Just like in society today, Sadly... Form comes before Function.
Wow thanx for showing us exactly where the "Hardcore 90's" went little boy, it was drowned out by a flood of noobs like this fine upstanding citizen of the Counterstrike community. If you want fast respawn PvP go play Quake, its got pointless PvP, pointless Death's and Pointless gameplay, all the entertainment you could possibly want in PvP. BOOOOOOMMM!!! HEEEAAAADSHOT!!!!! Get ready for the future of MMORPG's people.
For me, the 'Hardcore '90's' ended the day I quit UO- 31st December 1999.
QFE
I too long for a game that brings back some of the aspects of old UO and old EQ. I want a game that rewards me for my PVE exploits but I also want a solid PVP system involved in it. I'm watching a couple that are currently in development sharply in case something good comes of them.
The problem that 'hardcore' gamers have, however, is that we are a minority in the market. Hard-Core MMORPG players are a NICHE market. Most people don't want to risk losing their stuff. EVER. Most people don't want to have to walk 30 minutes and get a group of friends to help them get their corpse out of the dungeon they died in.... EVER.
Those of us who grew up playing P&P RPG's are 'hard core roleplayers' for the most part. We want our character to BE somebody to have IMPACT in the world and to be AFFECTED by the world around us. The problem is that MOST players only want to impact the world and not have other players impact them. That is the problem.
So while there is a substantial base of players who would enjoy such a game it's largely an ignored sector of the market because the REAL money in the industry is in attracting the care-bears.
That's just the way it is, unfortunately.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
1 word for ya..
The problem is that most people already get that competition in their normal daily lives.
What I imagine a "hardcore game" to be is a watered down version of life. Why would you want that, unless you live such a stress free life that you need simulated competition to feel human.
I dont need a virtual opponent to be angry with, I already get that face to face.
The ultimate hardcore game I played was a Battletech 2056 MUD, had permadeath.
I guess UO was also hardcore but the gameplay was so slow and doofy that it really didnt matter.
Eve has been accused of being "hardcore" but really it's pretty forgiving.
And yeah, you're right, you are the minority. People who live such idyllic lives that they NEED virtual stress and strife are indeed the minority. If thats the case then have at it, and get that heartrate up, but if you think everyone's a pussy and you're so brave, thats just not the case, you're just more bored than everybody else and need the extra stimulation of real emotions thats lacking from your daily life.
I hear Lineage is pretty "hardcore" why aint you playing that? I bet dying and losing a full day of work would get the heartrate up pretty high...
LOL
I dunno... Vanguard looks like an EQ Clone (go fig the guys who wrote EQ are writing it) with new graphics and possibly better crafting. But still no PVP unless they've changed that plan since the last time I visited the site.
Personally I hate level based games, which is going to rule Vanguard out for me. I'm watching Irith with a lot of interest though. It could be the next UO.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Wow, someone else who was on BT3056
As to Lineage? No, sorry, that's not a 'hardcore' MMO it's just a level grind with PVP painted over it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I've said it before, and I will say it again. Ever scince PoP came out for EQ, i have been begging for a "Classic" type server with just RoK and SoV enabled.
The oldschool EQ had everything you were talking about.
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--
-- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations)
-- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard
Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
___________________
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
I dunno... Vanguard looks like an EQ Clone (go fig the guys who wrote EQ are writing it) with new graphics and possibly better crafting. But still no PVP unless they've changed that plan since the last time I visited the site.
Personally I hate level based games, which is going to rule Vanguard out for me. I'm watching Irith with a lot of interest though. It could be the next UO.
Yes Vanguard is made by EQ creators, and therefore it take inspiration from it.
But don't be fooled to think that Vanguard will be just the real EQ2.
Vanguard has lots of original features, and although it won't be an hardcore game, it would be much more challenging that the latest crap the market offered recently.
This is a game that will make old school players very happy, and although ther s none of such thing like permadeath, it would be very challenging and rewarding.
I am pretty sure that everyone that is looking for the old magic of the first MMOs, will be very pleased with it.
So keep an open mind on it, and if when it comes out you don't like it, fair enough.
But gives Vanguard a chance, and don't judge it before hands as an EQ clone, just because the same EQ team is developing it