Child Like

delete5230

Anyway here's a few words I have to say about combat: 
Combat in all games should be at the very least WHERE YOUR ABILITIES COUNT.  Example would be, when you get a new ability the player would run off some place and test it.  Then decide how can It be utilized in a rotation TO MAKE THE PLAYER FEEL BETTER. 

Originally in first and second generation games (more so in second) the player had choices when facing a target. low, medium or hard... Should I go for it or not... Something that will offer a test, if not go around and ignore, or get a friend.  This is completely gone in modern games.  It's now completely child like.  Tanks don't have to Tank.  Healers don't have to heal.  

My definition of a game (any type) is wining is not absolute !
Even Tic-Tac-Toe, directions can't be any more basic... But you may not win !



Because their ALL child like (around 4>7 year old) and I call them on it, people assume Dark Souls hard..... I'm like what ?..... Where did this come from !  

When My old girl friends daughter was around three years old, I sat here in front of a keyboard and had here try to fight in a cartoon game.  I realized her motor functions were not developed yet.  Her fingers and brain were not in sync yet.  Most likely 4>7 is the basic age for motor function and that is what every mmorpg is made for !  


My question:  
Since all mmorpg's are JUST above motor skill function.  And adults are playing them.  Obviously easy.  Are you enjoying this third generation of "combat not being the object" of the game ?    

Notice I'm not trying to belittle anyone by saying you can't handle combat made for 7 years old.  YOU KNOW I'm not saying that.... Just asking if you prefer this way.

delete5230

What has me frustrated is all mmorpg's turned "child like". 

Generation's 1,2,3... It's hard pressed to find ANYTHING above basic motor skill function difficulty, even the classics.

Xasapis

I thought they change it to facilitate transition to controller based combat. The only mmorpg that still maintains a big amount of skills and is also playable by a controller is Final Fantasy Online.

Vrika

People learning to move their body while they're children does not make playing violin a child-like activity, nor does it make playing violin easy.

I pity people who think that moving your body as an adult is always easy because they've obviously never in their life used it to do anything challenging and never felt the joy that comes together with it.



Not that MMOs wouldn't be too easy nowadays.

iixviiiix

It not about combat system , it just about too much power stats get add to the game .

Hawkaya399

delete5230 said:

What has me frustrated is all mmorpg's turned "child like". 

Generation's 1,2,3... It's hard pressed to find ANYTHING above basic motor skill function difficulty, even the classics.

Are you sure your impression is not limited by how long you've played modern MMO's? Almost all MMO's are easy at first. If it has 80 levels, it'll probably be easy up to 50 and moderately challenging the rest of the way, hitting its peak at the highest levels, depending on how earnestly you search for challenges. Another issue is mudflation. The older an MMO becomes, the easier the leveling is. This happens because more levels are added over the years, so leveling itself becomes faster. This prevents leveling to max level requiring years of time in an old MMO. And generally the difficulty of leveling becomes easier because items and abilities and effects become more available (essentially their value decreases because of mudflation). Most MMO's will shy away from truly open economies to prevent price gouging. This is selling rare items at excessive prices so other veteran players can twink alts. Price gouging can happen because longtime players have so much money. Because old MMO's usually have top heavy populations, this is another reason the lower levels will be increasingly easier and more soloable. This is to compensate for lacking economy and groups.

I think to get a fair impression of an MMO you'd need to play it consistently for a month or two to  get beyond this initial false impression.

I think you're right though, to some limit. I can remember dying a lot in Everquest in my lower levels. And I was playing right at launch when there were two to three thousand players on each server.  The other thing is I was playing on Rallos Zek, so PvP added additional deaths. A lot of players didn't like the dying and death penalty in Everquest, so they welcomed other MMO's like WoW which greatly reduced its frequency and intensity, whilst also making soloing easier.

But was it challenging gameplay, as opposed to tedious or masochist? I'm not sure. I'm playing Neverwinter right now, and I've played some other relatively modern MMO's. One thing bothers me is how dull the quests are. I barely have to lift a finger to finish them. Ok so they added glowing paths and automatic things and easier deaths, so it's not tedious or painful, but where's the challenge? It seems to me they removed the fake challenges and hurtful things, but they haven't actually added any genuine challenge either. I can't survive on the story alone. I need some challenge to immerse. However, in saying this, I have to be careful I'm not judging these games too soon. Most of them I haven't played long enough to know with a guarantee.

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

people assume Dark Souls hard..... I'm like what ?..... Where did this come from !  

Do people expect to die in Dark Souls? Do they tout the "you will die a lot" mantra for dark souls?

yes. Then it's hard.

"but I can ..."

Great, "you can" but other people find it hard and when it becomes a commonplace phrase for a game "you will die" then it's hard

"Yeah, but I don't ..."

Good, you don't but many people do.

Panther2103

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

people assume Dark Souls hard..... I'm like what ?..... Where did this come from !  

Do people expect to die in Dark Souls? Do they tout the "you will die a lot" mantra for dark souls?

yes. Then it's hard.

"but I can ..."

Great, "you can" but other people find it hard and when it becomes a commonplace phrase for a game "you will die" then it's hard

"Yeah, but I don't ..."

Good, you don't but many people do.

I don't think explaining it will help. He contradicts his own statement in his second post. Saying older MMO's were harder, but generation 3 was too easy, but then in his second post literally saying "Generation's 1,2,3... It's hard pressed to find ANYTHING above basic motor skill function difficulty, even the classics."

Amathe

delete5230 said:

Since all mmorpg's are JUST above motor skill function .... Obviously easy.  

You once shared with us that you were unable to get past level 6 in Everquest. So I am puzzled why you would take a position such as this. If EQ, as one example, is easy, why did you hit a wall at the beginner's level? 

Scot

Just part of the Law of Easymode, you can't have "complex" controls in any game. Remember when the old CEO of EA started his tenure, "We are only going to make games your mum could play" not an exact quote but that's the mentality that came to drive gaming to where it is today.

delete5230

I posed a question: 
Since all mmorpg's are JUST above motor skill function.  And adults are playing them.  Obviously easy.  Are you enjoying this third generation of "combat not being the object" of the game ? 


It seems no one would outright say "yes"
But like a politician arguing everything is fine, is saying "yes"

So my question was answered by about five liking child like. 
Still not sure about the majority just these five or so.  However the question is for the most part unanswered.  I think the majority are keeping silent to avoid being scorned. 

Derros

If you are asking if I prefer how MMOs play now adays rather than how they played in the days of EQ/Anarchy Online, then my answer has to be yes. I did not care for grinding camps for hours, but I did it because of the novelty of MMOs at the time.

delete5230

Derros said:

If you are asking if I prefer how MMOs play now adays rather than how they played in the days of EQ/Anarchy Online, then my answer has to be yes. I did not care for grinding camps for hours.

Agree,
I tried P1999 last year.  "It sucked 100%", only to be appreciated for it's intent.
It reeked of simply being old.  

Kyleran

Scot said:

Just part of the Law of Easymode, you can't have "complex" controls in any game. Remember when the old CEO of EA started his tenure, "We are only going to make games your mum could play" not an exact quote but that's the mentality that came to drive gaming to where it is today.

What is it, games like Dark Souls are reported "finished" by like 10% of all players? Why is that, because they find the gameplay tedious and unrewarding so set it quickly aside.

If you are making a MMO (or any game really) it makes sense to design them to provide satisfaction to the largest number of customers rather than grognards yearning for the old days of "challenge."

I'll admit, I'm not seeking any serious challenge,  I play games primarily for progression, and if anything brings it to a near halt I'm more likely to find a different game.

Kyleran

delete5230 said:

I posed a question: 
Since all mmorpg's are JUST above motor skill function.  And adults are playing them.  Obviously easy.  Are you enjoying this third generation of "combat not being the object" of the game ? 


It seems no one would outright say "yes"
But like a politician arguing everything is fine, is saying "yes"

So my question was answered by about five liking child like. 
Still not sure about the majority just these five or so.  However the question is for the most part unanswered.  I think the majority are keeping silent to avoid being scorned. 

I'll say Yes, modern MMORPGs with "action combat" are either beyond my ability or interest to play, I lack the physical coordination and attention span to enjoy such.

I've seen videos of people truly good at such combat, they are phenomenally quick and have every key press muscle memoried (or saved in a macro) and I could never compete in combat against such.

I recall there was a poster here about 5 years ago always pointing out how the WOW Warlock was one of the deepest "classes" in gaming, offering as evidence the 18 or so steps in it's full rotation of skills.

Also, many newer MMORPGs have eliminated proper raiding. Why? Perhaps because it is very expensive content to create that many people, INCLUDING YOU, don't actually bother to do.

Even with Blizzard making raiding way easier today compared to vanilla (where you still don't raid even today) many players continue to ignore it.

Your complaint accurately describes the lack of challenge in day to day gameplay and grinding,  but you do not avail yourself much of the oft times very challenging elements some games offer in high end PVE and PVP.

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

people assume Dark Souls hard..... I'm like what ?..... Where did this come from !  

Do people expect to die in Dark Souls? Do they tout the "you will die a lot" mantra for dark souls?

yes. Then it's hard.

"but I can ..."

Great, "you can" but other people find it hard and when it becomes a commonplace phrase for a game "you will die" then it's hard

"Yeah, but I don't ..."

Good, you don't but many people do.

They're not hard. They're just punishing and, often, outright cheap. Also, marketing.

So anyone can breeze through Dark Souls? Heck, anyone can just pick it up and play it without really paying attention?

If someone misses a shield bash or doesn't move out of the way in time or doesn't pay attention to something around the corner while engaging an enemy they will die.

Sure, once you learn the areas and know what to expect they become easier.

But they are "hard."

There are people who have never completed the Dark Souls games. They require patience, they require being quick and paying attention.

If you have no issues with this they might not be "hard" for you but in general, they are hard for most people.

WargfootYV

When I look at how I play games I usually do quite a bit of hunting/gathering/hoarding.
Even in a PvE environment the monsters are usually a bit of a drag for me.

It is mindless (or childlike) but after a day of work that is all I want to do anyways.

Scot

Kyleran said:

Scot said:

Just part of the Law of Easymode, you can't have "complex" controls in any game. Remember when the old CEO of EA started his tenure, "We are only going to make games your mum could play" not an exact quote but that's the mentality that came to drive gaming to where it is today.

What is it, games like Dark Souls are reported "finished" by like 10% of all players? Why is that, because they find the gameplay tedious and unrewarding so set it quickly aside.

If you are making a MMO (or any game really) it makes sense to design them to provide satisfaction to the largest number of customers rather than grognards yearning for the old days of "challenge."

I'll admit, I'm not seeking any serious challenge,  I play games primarily for progression, and if anything brings it to a near halt I'm more likely to find a different game.

It is a matter of balance, you don't have to make a MMO as tricky as Dark Souls to address the tide of easy mode that is still coming relentlessly in. But what DS does show is you can make harder games and they will sell.

Part of the problem is that the "largest number of customers" expects every more easy games, it is not just a decision to make them less hard than they were in the nineties, it is one to make them every easier. So what the largest number of customers want is ever moving to an even more easy mode position.

You mentioned Dark Souls is only completed by 10% of players, how many players in a given MMO leave before they get to top level? Why do they leave? Well one of the reasons is the total ease of progression, which seems great at first, but then just saturates you with Dings. But I would venture it is not the main reason why they leave.

anemo

If you want a hard combat you could look at BattleCON.

It's head deep into the whole Attack, Counter Attack,  Counter Counter Attack, and Yomi like gameplay that it's pretty epic.  Does well enough that if you play Optimally, you'll lose most of your games.   Even does it turn based so that my RPG player self can enjoy it.

Also does the whole class based combat thing better than RPGs have been recently.  

Palebane

Combat in RPGs has always been kind of terrible. Don’t forget all RPG combat started with several dice rolls back in the day. Its always been more about non-combat activities like storytelling, personal interaction, character progression, etc. Action rpgs are a little better, but if I want good combat, I’ll play a shooter, fighting, or sports/racing game

Amathe

The problem with the OP is that it paints with an absurdly broad brush that makes discussion pointless.

It's not some games but all games.

It's not some people but all people.

it's not sometimes but always.

Something is not flawed, but is instead completely bad.

Kyleran

WargfootYV said:

When I look at how I play games I usually do quite a bit of hunting/gathering/hoarding.
Even in a PvE environment the monsters are usually a bit of a drag for me.

It is mindless (or childlike) but after a day of work that is all I want to do anyways.

My "life" in FO76, but I do enjoy bashing monsters with my SuperSledge hammer.

delete5230

It seems Amathe and Jean_Luc are related, don't know why, just seems that way

AAAMEOW

There is nothing wrong with the combat.  Main problem is content is too easy.  Which is understandable since developer want their game to be doable by most of its player.

I think a better approach is infinite dungeon with leader board like what ARPG is doing.

Tiller

lol based on the past threads I have seen, including this one the OPs avatar is fitting.

Limnic

Kyleran said:

delete5230 said:

I posed a question: 
Since all mmorpg's are JUST above motor skill function.  And adults are playing them.  Obviously easy.  Are you enjoying this third generation of "combat not being the object" of the game ? 


It seems no one would outright say "yes"
But like a politician arguing everything is fine, is saying "yes"

So my question was answered by about five liking child like. 
Still not sure about the majority just these five or so.  However the question is for the most part unanswered.  I think the majority are keeping silent to avoid being scorned. 

I'll say Yes, modern MMORPGs with "action combat" are either beyond my ability or interest to play, I lack the physical coordination and attention span to enjoy such.

I've seen videos of people truly good at such combat, they are phenomenally quick and have every key press muscle memoried (or saved in a macro) and I could never compete in combat against such.

I recall there was a poster here about 5 years ago always pointing out how the WOW Warlock was one of the deepest "classes" in gaming, offering as evidence the 18 or so steps in it's full rotation of skills.

Also, many newer MMORPGs have eliminated proper raiding. Why? Perhaps because it is very expensive content to create that many people, INCLUDING YOU, don't actually bother to do.

Even with Blizzard making raiding way easier today compared to vanilla (where you still don't raid even today) many players continue to ignore it.

Your complaint accurately describes the lack of challenge in day to day gameplay and grinding,  but you do not avail yourself much of the oft times very challenging elements some games offer in high end PVE and PVP.

Problem with the rotation example was that it's not really upping the difficulty, it's just rote memory.


Thing is, most game's absolve challenge by relatively simple means because challenge through complexity creates a narrower band of consumers fundamentally. A simple game that creates "challenge" through making people memorize specific action patterns to repeat ad-nauseam, and then changing it up a bit occasionally, is simpler to approach than a system that has you trying to compete against a more intelligent AI, more contextualized skills, or more branching methods of gameplay.


It's also frequently a case of underutilized depth.

For example you can break down how ESO has integrated part of it's combat system into a fundamental set of actions with the light, heavy, block, dodge, slam, and positional advantage. They have a basic system, that if they chose to focus on it, would already have the ability to offer a decently challenging system if you had to practice finite timing and prediction to when to us a light versus heavy strike, when to block versus dodge. etc.

And some of that is there. Plus the class and other skills you can collect to create additional play options.

But is the potential depth that the system has supported? Not really. Or at least not well. It's not very tight on actions so the time you have between reading a tell and reacting to it is pretty long usually, and the tells themselves are made very obvious. The skills that add to the core combat system largely overrides the core combat mechanic's value in favor of DPS spam, and contextual elements tend to get circumvented as well through use of some skills. 


Guess in general I feel it's a more accurate criticism of gaming to say most devs (or publishers) are afraid of marginalizing their consumer base to chase "deep" or challenging gameplay through clever or complex methods.