Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
He's streaming in the runescape directory with runescape running in the background while he is doing this, thus the user content and content standards policy are applicable. What the phone company does is completely irrelevant to what happened to his game account or his actions, they have their own standards. This is completely on Jagex's user content rules, which because he's in that directory he has to uphold or they can terminate his account.
You are reverting back to my Netflix argument. Either he was acting in the game, which would make the ban justifiable, or he wasn't.
Let me put it this way, if there was no stream, would Runescape would be justified in their ban?
Nope, because he wouldn't have to uphold to the user content rules. If he was not streaming, he could go shit in his neighbors mailbox, egg the police station, whatever and jagex probably wouldn't care. It's the fact that he did it on stream while creating user content for runescape that it becomes an issue for them.
What he does in the game is completely irrelevant to what happened. He could have been afk in the game, dancing for gold, whatever. He wasn't banned for violating Runescape's terms and conditions. He was banned for violating Jagex's user content policy/Jagex's terms of conditions because he was hanging around in their directories and representing them, which means they banned him not just from Runescape by all Jagex products. It's basically the equivalent of you getting banned from Trion's website for calling in death threats to their company employees which by extension meant you were banned from Archeage or Rift because their servers run off of trion's database if that makes sense. (I'm not making a comparison between his actions and this example by the way, but rather giving an example of causation between an action and what the company could/might have done). If he had moved to a different directory, and minimized runescape, they probably wouldn't have banned him since he would no longer be considered creating content for them.
I am all for freedom and have never been a huge defender of companies and greedy suits, I find many times they have predatory practices that get out of control. I am also all for us maintaining our freedom and rights that our fore fathers fought for.
That said, our forefathers who developed a unique government for the newly formed
United States of America had the foresight to empower
the people with freedoms and temper those freedoms with
responsibilities.
Why so?
When people are given a completely free reign, on the other hand, chaos
tends to occur. With no accountability, any behavior becomes acceptable.
Every freedom we have comes with a corresponding responsibility, and also a structure to those freedoms as with structure comes accountability.
I think some people here need to rethink their argument especially the slippery slope one for the simple fact that it applies both ways.
If you claim the person that was banned had every "right" to do what he did then likewise the companies involved (twitch and jagex) also had every right to ban them period.
They both have every right and responsibility to accept the responsibility for their actions, actions includes words as well btw.
Both parties also have the right to contest all this in court if they so wish.
Our freedoms are not a free pass to avoid responsibility for our actions or to get a free pass from those around us when we did w/e got us in trouble.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
No you don't lose your freedom. It wasn't a freedom you had to start with. You don't get to go into a venue owned by someone else and play by your own rules. You don't get to go into a movie theatre and stand up and tell the person behind you to kill themselves.
Your analogy is completely flawed. If a phone company finds you making harrasing phone calls or otherwise disturbing people uninvited, hell yes they will shut you down.
You wouldn't want to live in a world that works like you describe. You just didn't think this through enough to understand that.
Nothing like you described is what happened. Not even remotely. The fact he was playing the game had zero, absolutely zero to do with his action.
Believe me. I have given this a lot of thought. You can ask Frenchie
There are ramifications here far beyond the surface.
I'm not trying to convince anyone whatsoever. I knew it would be an unpopular position but I think it's important that people at least get exposed to it.
Except he was using a 3rd party service, remember one of the most established doctrines in capitalism is the "right to refuse service". Lets not talk about that in most jurisdictions now in the Western World has some form of cyber bulling on the books + the companies involved do not want to be involved in any form of Civil Litigation...
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.
I get your aversion to censorship of any form. With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.
Just for clarity here (and I'll stay out) it's not censorship in any form. It's based on who is doing the censorship and what is being censored. Absolutely censor anything illegal. I'm 100% OK with that. But JagEx just banned a guy for something that had nothing to do with their game. It's a slippery slope and that kind of action is waaaay down the slope. Example, should a company be able to ban a fan who kneels during the national anthem because the company finds it disrespectful? Not an employee, but a fan who was attending the game. You start down the slope it just gets more and more slippery and momentum takes you to a very bad place.
Just wanted to clarify for you.
PS: I know it's not a popular stance. That's OK. And yes, to repeat, the guy was a douche.
Accept in most ToS harassment is not allowed in any form and they are a feature part of his stream show aka that is the game he is playing. Sorry but as a business owner myself I will cut any customer out of my services etc if they are going to directly or indirectly put my business at risk. Also even if Jagex did nothing they could have just contacted twitch and forward this and ban hammer will come either way.
Bound to happen when you give "fame" and the illusion of power to random buckos who would otherwise be McDonald's cooks. There's a reason complete idiots typically get put in their place or just fail hard, before somewhat making it. Twitch skips that process and as long as you have a way (typically mom's basement) to survive the years of grind, you'll get to that point where people give you money to be the dumbass they know better not to be.
Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
He's streaming in the runescape directory with runescape running in the background while he is doing this, thus the user content and content standards policy are applicable. What the phone company does is completely irrelevant to what happened to his game account or his actions, they have their own standards. This is completely on Jagex's user content rules, which because he's in that directory he has to uphold or they can terminate his account.
You are reverting back to my Netflix argument. Either he was acting in the game, which would make the ban justifiable, or he wasn't.
Let me put it this way, if there was no stream, would Runescape would be justified in their ban?
Guilty by association. Something terrible is done while the name of the game (and the game itself) is all over the screen. While it's quite strikingly obvious Jagex aren't responsible for any of it, it could get the tongues spinning bad publicity such as: "Does the game breed this behavior?" or "Is this really what Runescape players are like?" It's a reputation thing, entirely by association.
If someone filmed themselves, all dressed up in a brand with said brand posters and stickers in the background, and committed a crime, you can bet your ass that company won't be happy about it. Let's get a bit extreme here: What if a guy that doesn't like you, filmed themselves giving you a shout out, committing a crime in your name, and just being very loud and obvious about you. While, again, it's obvious you had nothing to do with it, you'll get a whole lotta shit for it and you yourself should also be pretty pissed about it.
"An individual's right to say what they want" varies by country.
European countries - sweeping generalisation - expect individual to behave responsibly. As a result there are often limits on what an individual can say. They seek to balance the individual's right with the right of society - society being individual's as a whole.
Many such laws having there origin in several hundred years of exposure to kings, demagogues and dictators spreading lies, stirring up hatred and rabble rousing. Resulting in multiple wars, schisms and pogroms. WWII was only one example of many.
Words can have consequences.
Think about what an uptick in suicide attempts might mean - increased healthcare, police and social care costs would probably be the tip of the iceberg. So society - i.e. everyone - would pay.
If other companies followed Jagex's actions that could be seen as a limitation of the idiots freedoms but society - as well as companies - also have rights. And I suspect it wouldn't take many such "examples" before word got around either.
Getting the balance right is the difficulty.
It isn't just about the individual's "freedom" however. Having lived and worked in the US though - as well as European countries - I am aware that the rights of society - i.e. all of us collectively - are often forgotten. They shouldn't be.
Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
He's streaming in the runescape directory with runescape running in the background while he is doing this, thus the user content and content standards policy are applicable. What the phone company does is completely irrelevant to what happened to his game account or his actions, they have their own standards. This is completely on Jagex's user content rules, which because he's in that directory he has to uphold or they can terminate his account.
You are reverting back to my Netflix argument. Either he was acting in the game, which would make the ban justifiable, or he wasn't.
Let me put it this way, if there was no stream, would Runescape would be justified in their ban?
yes, because it is their service, they can ban whomever they want.
will their customers put up with it is the question you should be asking.
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.
I get your aversion to censorship of any form. With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.
Just for clarity here (and I'll stay out) it's not censorship in any form. It's based on who is doing the censorship and what is being censored. Absolutely censor anything illegal. I'm 100% OK with that. But JagEx just banned a guy for something that had nothing to do with their game. It's a slippery slope and that kind of action is waaaay down the slope. Example, should a company be able to ban a fan who kneels during the national anthem because the company finds it disrespectful? Not an employee, but a fan who was attending the game. You start down the slope it just gets more and more slippery and momentum takes you to a very bad place.
Just wanted to clarify for you.
Hi. I am Norwegian. Some years ago there was a huge act of terror on norwegian soil. A crazy guy killed 90+ youths on a summer camp. Before he did it, he was an avid gamer, mostly WoW. At the forums and in chat he spent a lot of time spreading theories about the new world order, the plague of the muslims and promote conservatism. His account name was conservatism.
At the day of the terror, one of my friends got shot and lost two limbs. Two other ones were shot dead. I personally think any comment online indirectly or directly leading to a potential or direct harm to anyone is more than good enough reason for anyone to be removed, until they learn better. If they ever do.
Up to this day his ideas on various forums is still being spread, and in some social networks he is considered a hero.
This streamer obviously did not do anything remotely similar to "our" monster. Still, the similarity is in the wording. If anything is allowed to let pass on the altar of freedom of speech, the world will not be a better place. It will become a more dangerious place, because we create echo-chambers for each others. ALready theres many who think what he said was fair and just. And that the person should have killed herself. Thats good enough reason for me to get him out of the game, at least if I was moderating it. Some ideas, meanings and thoughts doesnt have the right to the freedom of speech ideal. It is ours duty to guard that ideal, not to promote speech which is life threatening, because a life is much more worth than some jackass who think hes funny.
Question; if you saw someone bullying another for their looks, or for their ethnisity, for their religion or for their mental state, would you stop the one trying to stop the bullier with "freedom of speech" in hand, or would you also try to stop the harasment? Internet society should have the same rules as real society. If someones an asshole in real life, you should stop him. If hes an asshole online, same rules apply.
I'm curious what your definition of asshole is. I'd use the term monster for both these guys. I'm an asshole by my own definition. I don't drop the point and I hold unpopular opinions. Should I be banned from the internet and put underwatch?
Another sad day for gaming. I can only hope someday soon government steps up and implement some laws to protect people from these tyrannical practices where people are being arbitrarily punished by "insert whatever company" for things they do in their private life that these companies have no domain over what so ever.
Simply put ITS NOT jagex place in any way shape or form to take up the role of law and punishment in peoples personal lives. Now if twitch banned him that would be fine as it occurred on their platform, if the police arrested him because it was a crime and used the video as evidence that would be fine, but this insanity MUST STOP where some one posts something on facebook and then some 100% unrelated company either fires them them or bans them from their product. We must have some laws implemented to protects peoples private lives...ITS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.
Again to be clear what I am talking about is if some random person made a facebook post saying"I think mmrv is a queer" and steam bans that persons account WE HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM OCCURRING IN OUR SOCIETY (facebook can ban that user if they chose but beyond that its no companies right to impose their own form of justice) and government it would seem needs to step in and protect the people.
I think what he did was stupid no doubt, but the blame doesn't stop at him. I also think our society has breached another line where somehow a person arbitrarily placed the burden on a young kid who has ZERO training to become a suicide prevention hotline...The kid has no experience to help in the first place and most likely has no idea if this is even a real suicidal person or some gag because kids play stupid jokes all the time.
I dont think any rational arguments exist to counter my points if our goal is to protect humans rights and freedoms, but feel free to provide them if you somehow think, some arbitrary company gets wind of something you said that they don't like becomes judge jury and executioner and bans you from their service, be it gaming, electricity or cable etc....
This is all the result of an out of control college system that has manufactured these social sciences of which their poorly educated students with agendas are running rampant in human resources in companies inflicting their fabricated social justices and it needs to be reined in asap because its getting utterly insane.
Imagine getting in an argument telling someone to f-off and die then some HR person at microsoft sees the recorded video and shuts off your access to all microsoft products.... its unimaginable but we are almost to that point.
Most 'suicidal' people or people that TALK about suicide dont really want to kill themselves theyre just looking for attention either to get legit help or to have people feel sorry for them.
I have known a few people that 'failed' at it and many that succeeded and they have the same thing in common more or less.
If this person REALLY wanted help I dont think a twitch streamer would be the go to. But then again people contemplating suicide arent thinking rationally in the first place I guess.
So like I said a touchy subject because how can we be sure the person was really wanting to kill themselves in the first place?
If recent events are any indication jumping to conclusions without all the facts or watching 30 seconds of a 2 hour long video is just irresponsible if youre going to start making judgments.
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
People lose their jobs for posting dumb shit on their personal social media profiles on their own personal time. It's all about reputation. Corporations don't want any association with negative publicity like that.
Correct and it needs to stop. We need some laws to protect peoples private lives, all of this amounts to nothing more that massive levels of personal harassment and often reaches epic levels of bullying, slander etc...as most anything can look bad when taken out of context. Its none of anyone's business if me and my brother have a disagreement over the internet and call call him a "fag" (i don't actually have a brother just an example). Don;t use the fallacy of calling it public domain because it happened on the internet either because it could just as easily been at the park and some random stranger video'd it and posted it.
I get it social media has rapidly evolved and many laws were not created to account for this stuff and that is the problem and it needs to change. Just like you cannot record someone without permission in many places some laws need to be implemented covering individuals from random people using and "recorded" things they typed on the internet or a social media platform. Stay out of my business you have no right to inject yourself into my private life.
A good example was this years heissman trophy winner for college football and some asshats digging up something he typed on his social media when he was 15 years old and demanding he not be eligible for the award because of it. This is really wrong and must be addressed.
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.
I get your aversion to censorship of any form. With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.
Just for clarity here (and I'll stay out) it's not censorship in any form. It's based on who is doing the censorship and what is being censored. Absolutely censor anything illegal. I'm 100% OK with that. But JagEx just banned a guy for something that had nothing to do with their game. It's a slippery slope and that kind of action is waaaay down the slope. Example, should a company be able to ban a fan who kneels during the national anthem because the company finds it disrespectful? Not an employee, but a fan who was attending the game. You start down the slope it just gets more and more slippery and momentum takes you to a very bad place.
Just wanted to clarify for you.
Hi. I am Norwegian. Some years ago there was a huge act of terror on norwegian soil. A crazy guy killed 90+ youths on a summer camp. Before he did it, he was an avid gamer, mostly WoW. At the forums and in chat he spent a lot of time spreading theories about the new world order, the plague of the muslims and promote conservatism. His account name was conservatism.
At the day of the terror, one of my friends got shot and lost two limbs. Two other ones were shot dead. I personally think any comment online indirectly or directly leading to a potential or direct harm to anyone is more than good enough reason for anyone to be removed, until they learn better. If they ever do.
Up to this day his ideas on various forums is still being spread, and in some social networks he is considered a hero.
This streamer obviously did not do anything remotely similar to "our" monster. Still, the similarity is in the wording. If anything is allowed to let pass on the altar of freedom of speech, the world will not be a better place. It will become a more dangerious place, because we create echo-chambers for each others. ALready theres many who think what he said was fair and just. And that the person should have killed herself. Thats good enough reason for me to get him out of the game, at least if I was moderating it. Some ideas, meanings and thoughts doesnt have the right to the freedom of speech ideal. It is ours duty to guard that ideal, not to promote speech which is life threatening, because a life is much more worth than some jackass who think hes funny.
Question; if you saw someone bullying another for their looks, or for their ethnisity, for their religion or for their mental state, would you stop the one trying to stop the bullier with "freedom of speech" in hand, or would you also try to stop the harasment? Internet society should have the same rules as real society. If someones an asshole in real life, you should stop him. If hes an asshole online, same rules apply.
No one is arguing people should not be held accountable for actions on the internet. the problem is random companies HR department should not be arbitrarily taking up the role of judge jury and executioner. We have established laws and law enforcement services who are trained to uphold the law. If you believe dangerous conduct happens report it to the authorities who can actually do something not to Julie in HR who clearly can do nothing to prevent any potential harm. Let's be honest Jagex banning this person did NOTHING to protect the person they are pretending to care about being the suicidal person. Its nothing more than a pathetic PR stunt trying to garner business. If anyone actually cared they would done everything possible to intervene and help the suicidal person. If Jagex actually cared they would donate ALL OF THEIR PROFITS but they won't and at best they will donate a trivial portion of the profits as another cheap PR stunt to increase profits.
I really dislike your little political jab with the tired old "conservative anti muslim guy killed 90 people" so ill just counter with well there are many well documented socialist/communist/marxist types who are responsible for MILLIONS of deaths as well as by muslims and its critical we do everything possible to prevent those types of people from ever gaining power of any sort again and this behavior is what leads to it. Sorry bad people do bad things they come in all types.
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.
I get your aversion to censorship of any form. With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.
Just for clarity here (and I'll stay out) it's not censorship in any form. It's based on who is doing the censorship and what is being censored. Absolutely censor anything illegal. I'm 100% OK with that. But JagEx just banned a guy for something that had nothing to do with their game. It's a slippery slope and that kind of action is waaaay down the slope. Example, should a company be able to ban a fan who kneels during the national anthem because the company finds it disrespectful? Not an employee, but a fan who was attending the game. You start down the slope it just gets more and more slippery and momentum takes you to a very bad place.
Just wanted to clarify for you.
PS: I know it's not a popular stance. That's OK. And yes, to repeat, the guy was a douche.
If you're streaming a game, you're representing it, especially if you're a partner (which I don't care enough to find out if this guy was). It's no different from doing the same thing on ingame chat. He was interacting with their community, setting a bad example for members of their community, and tarnishing the reputation of their game. They were well within their rights.
If you do the same thing on your facebook with your company linked to your profile, or do so in public while wearing a company uniform, they would be well within their rights to fire you.
Uhm not your not. Me streaming a game has ZERO i mean 100% zero contractual agreement to represent their game or company. Further more the real people making money from streams are the game companies who get free advertising from the streamers work. Streaming is no different than me setting up a desk on my front lawn and playing a game and letting people who walk by watch me playing said game. You are confusing the fact that streaming simply lets people watch me via the internet instead of needing to walk past my front yard.
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
Have to disagree with this one. I agree about us not giving our freedoms away but the simple fact is this isn't big brother but a couple of private companies that have eulas/terms in which you agree to avoid certain behavior.
There's being an ass and then promoting something very very unhealthy that could hurt a brand/company if not nipped in the bud. No ones "freedoms" have been curtailed. Both platforms have their own "freedoms" and reserve the right to ban whomever from their platform
It's like going to a restaurant acting loud, uncouth, or overly aggressive....chances are you will be asked to leave. That's not taking your freedom away just like this wasn't, it's simply being held responsible for your actions.
I am a big fan of the slippery slope argument but this by far doesn't apply.
Good riddance I say.
Actually its quite different than your example. A more accurate example would be going to a restaurant acting loud, uncouth, or overly aggressive ( all of which are a 100% subjective measure that could literally be applied to anything including refusing to pay for uncooked wrong order that you were served) and when you board the bus to go home being told you are banned from riding the bus because of your interaction at the restaurant.....that is the REAL problem and a much better representation of what happened.
having read that. .the worst part to me was not what he did. . but that he muted the mic. . people who may think he is cool. . watched something that even *he* wouldn't do. . thinking he did.
So. Knowing it was wrong. . he lead people to believe he did it for attention. People enjoyed it of course . . like the enjoy watching two drunks fight. Inspiring people to do something even you think is too low. . class act.
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
Have to disagree with this one. I agree about us not giving our freedoms away but the simple fact is this isn't big brother but a couple of private companies that have eulas/terms in which you agree to avoid certain behavior.
There's being an ass and then promoting something very very unhealthy that could hurt a brand/company if not nipped in the bud. No ones "freedoms" have been curtailed. Both platforms have their own "freedoms" and reserve the right to ban whomever from their platform
It's like going to a restaurant acting loud, uncouth, or overly aggressive....chances are you will be asked to leave. That's not taking your freedom away just like this wasn't, it's simply being held responsible for your actions.
I am a big fan of the slippery slope argument but this by far doesn't apply.
Good riddance I say.
Actually its quite different than your example. A more accurate example would be going to a restaurant acting loud, uncouth, or overly aggressive ( all of which are a 100% subjective measure that could literally be applied to anything including refusing to pay for uncooked wrong order that you were served) and when you board the bus to go home being told you are banned from riding the bus because of your interaction at the restaurant.....that is the REAL problem and a much better representation of what happened.
No that's just stupid. The guy streaming wasn't doing anything private, it wasn't something personal.
As soon as you go in public you ARE open to public scrutiny. You stream on twitch TO THE OPEN PUBLIC then you invite public scrutiny.
The restaurant analogy fits because such behavior was in public so the restaurant has every right to kick your ass out. If it's filmed and then put on public media and your job is public conscience oriented, as in you work in the public or the company works in the public in some fashion your actions reflect on the company then yeah they have every right to fire your ass.
Hell in this case the guy was streaming the damn game while this was happening so yeah they have every right to ban him. I mean if he had done this but was playing sto for example then no it would not be jagex problem and they would have no right to ban him but sto could.
You say it's subjective well buddy that what the courts are for, to decide in such cases.
You bus example is asinine as the bus company wasn't involved in anyway at the restaurant, it's image isn't in danger and you in no way are representing them quite contrary to what happened here.
We are not in the wild wild west anymore. All this whinage about ma fweedoms is just people wanting to use the principles of freedom and liberty to get away with bad behavior and avoid responsibility for their actions.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
I think the circumstances were that he was streaming that game thus sort of aligning himself with that game in the viewers' eyes.
Companies are loath to be seen with anyone who will taint their image and even though he didn't do that in game, he did do it alongside the game.
I mean, look at what happened, people who were watching immediately informed Jagex because he was representing the game (whether they wanted him to do it or not)
And while I"m not a big believer in censorship, I am a believe in censoring people being "assholes" and possibly harming others because of their antics.
If he was wearing a Coca-Cola shirt while doing it and that got back to the Coke company I'm sure they would release a statement indicating that they were not in any way condoning such actions, blah blah blah.
Interesting point you brought up with coca cola, and that is the difference. Jagex could issue a statement, but they should have no legal path to infringe on the person rights, no different than coke cant sue the person who wore their t-shirt or send in the gestapo to repossess his shirt. This is the line being crossed with these "tech companies". purchasing and using a companies products has never meant or obligated you agree to "represent them" but its now being perverted by tech companies to try to incur "social justice". We have a process in place when people agree to represent a company and it comes in the form of a contract not a "eula" or user agreement.
Ehhh
Not a fan of BigBrother
Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.
When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
That includes freedom to be an ass.
If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.
I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.
I think the circumstances were that he was streaming that game thus sort of aligning himself with that game in the viewers' eyes.
Companies are loath to be seen with anyone who will taint their image and even though he didn't do that in game, he did do it alongside the game.
I mean, look at what happened, people who were watching immediately informed Jagex because he was representing the game (whether they wanted him to do it or not)
And while I"m not a big believer in censorship, I am a believe in censoring people being "assholes" and possibly harming others because of their antics.
If he was wearing a Coca-Cola shirt while doing it and that got back to the Coke company I'm sure they would release a statement indicating that they were not in any way condoning such actions, blah blah blah.
Interesting point you brought up with coca cola, and that is the difference. Jagex could issue a statement, but they should have no legal path to infringe on the person rights, no different than coke cant sue the person who wore their t-shirt or send in the gestapo to repossess his shirt. This is the line being crossed with these "tech companies". purchasing and using a companies products has never meant or obligated you agree to "represent them" but its now being perverted by tech companies to try to incur "social justice". We have a process in place when people agree to represent a company and it comes in the form of a contract not a "eula" or user agreement.
No just no.
Playing runscape is in no way a "right", it's a privilege you acquire under certain conditions when you sign up to the game.
They have every legal path and every right to refuse him service after this incident.
First he was doing all this publicly via twitch streaming.
Second he was using a product sure but he did not "own" the product as with most online games you do not "own" your account, the company does.
Third they also in every game I have played reserve the right to delete/ban you at their sole discretion and you agree to this when you sign up for the game whether you paid for it due to being b2p or not because it's f2p etc etc.
It's not like a car or a t shirt or car tires that you do actually "own" so when you get drunk and run down someone in the street with your car it not their business as that is between you and the law. Guess what videos of the incident will have an impact whether you consent to it or not as you were in public.
Lastly when in public other people can photo and film etc etc without your consent they just can't use it commercially. Only time this isn't legal is if you were filmed somewhere that you can normally can expect privacy like a public restroom, or store changing room etc etc.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Mocking a suicidal person from afar is one thing, but calling *them* when asked to *help* and then abusing them instead is Not Cool. I don't know if banning was the right call, but some form of punishment definitely was called for, IMO. What a sad sack of a human being.
Never is it ok to mock a person, let alone one who is struggling with suicide.
I mock people all the time, usually after they've done something stupid, like taking the Tide Pod Challenge, or lighting themselves on fire as part of an online dare. Some things *deserve* to be mocked. I'll sometimes mock people who've committed suicide because I think it's an act worth mocking, which is my way of condemning that sort of thing. But if, say, they're suffering from depression, I do support people who are fighting against that, because I know what that's like. I don't mock people who have the courage to fight against something like that.
Does this make me a good person? Certainly not. I'm not a very good person. But I'm usually an honest one, and I've been being honest here right now.
And, just to be clear, I mock myself all the time, especially when I do something stupid. And I laugh at myself as a result. Laughing at things makes them easier to deal with.
But I find what this guy did reprehensible because he actively sought out someone in distress and then tried to make it worse. I would *never* do that to anyone, even if I hated them.
At any rate, I disagree that it's never okay to mock someone. Sometimes, people *need* to be mocked, if only to keep things in perspective. But people in the situation this person was in? That's not the right time to mock them; if the guy couldn't be supportive, he should've just stayed away and maybe done something on the idiots doing the Bird Box Challenge in RL.
Comments
What he does in the game is completely irrelevant to what happened. He could have been afk in the game, dancing for gold, whatever. He wasn't banned for violating Runescape's terms and conditions. He was banned for violating Jagex's user content policy/Jagex's terms of conditions because he was hanging around in their directories and representing them, which means they banned him not just from Runescape by all Jagex products. It's basically the equivalent of you getting banned from Trion's website for calling in death threats to their company employees which by extension meant you were banned from Archeage or Rift because their servers run off of trion's database if that makes sense. (I'm not making a comparison between his actions and this example by the way, but rather giving an example of causation between an action and what the company could/might have done). If he had moved to a different directory, and minimized runescape, they probably wouldn't have banned him since he would no longer be considered creating content for them.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Guilty by association. Something terrible is done while the name of the game (and the game itself) is all over the screen. While it's quite strikingly obvious Jagex aren't responsible for any of it, it could get the tongues spinning bad publicity such as: "Does the game breed this behavior?" or "Is this really what Runescape players are like?" It's a reputation thing, entirely by association.
If someone filmed themselves, all dressed up in a brand with said brand posters and stickers in the background, and committed a crime, you can bet your ass that company won't be happy about it. Let's get a bit extreme here: What if a guy that doesn't like you, filmed themselves giving you a shout out, committing a crime in your name, and just being very loud and obvious about you. While, again, it's obvious you had nothing to do with it, you'll get a whole lotta shit for it and you yourself should also be pretty pissed about it.
(Bad Slap... no self-control)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
European countries - sweeping generalisation - expect individual to behave responsibly. As a result there are often limits on what an individual can say. They seek to balance the individual's right with the right of society - society being individual's as a whole.
Many such laws having there origin in several hundred years of exposure to kings, demagogues and dictators spreading lies, stirring up hatred and rabble rousing. Resulting in multiple wars, schisms and pogroms. WWII was only one example of many.
Words can have consequences.
Think about what an uptick in suicide attempts might mean - increased healthcare, police and social care costs would probably be the tip of the iceberg. So society - i.e. everyone - would pay.
If other companies followed Jagex's actions that could be seen as a limitation of the idiots freedoms but society - as well as companies - also have rights. And I suspect it wouldn't take many such "examples" before word got around either.
Getting the balance right is the difficulty.
It isn't just about the individual's "freedom" however. Having lived and worked in the US though - as well as European countries - I am aware that the rights of society - i.e. all of us collectively - are often forgotten. They shouldn't be.
yes, because it is their service, they can ban whomever they want.
will their customers put up with it is the question you should be asking.
I'm curious what your definition of asshole is. I'd use the term monster for both these guys. I'm an asshole by my own definition. I don't drop the point and I hold unpopular opinions. Should I be banned from the internet and put underwatch?
Simply put ITS NOT jagex place in any way shape or form to take up the role of law and punishment in peoples personal lives. Now if twitch banned him that would be fine as it occurred on their platform, if the police arrested him because it was a crime and used the video as evidence that would be fine, but this insanity MUST STOP where some one posts something on facebook and then some 100% unrelated company either fires them them or bans them from their product. We must have some laws implemented to protects peoples private lives...ITS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.
Again to be clear what I am talking about is if some random person made a facebook post saying"I think mmrv is a queer" and steam bans that persons account WE HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM OCCURRING IN OUR SOCIETY (facebook can ban that user if they chose but beyond that its no companies right to impose their own form of justice) and government it would seem needs to step in and protect the people.
I think what he did was stupid no doubt, but the blame doesn't stop at him. I also think our society has breached another line where somehow a person arbitrarily placed the burden on a young kid who has ZERO training to become a suicide prevention hotline...The kid has no experience to help in the first place and most likely has no idea if this is even a real suicidal person or some gag because kids play stupid jokes all the time.
I dont think any rational arguments exist to counter my points if our goal is to protect humans rights and freedoms, but feel free to provide them if you somehow think, some arbitrary company gets wind of something you said that they don't like becomes judge jury and executioner and bans you from their service, be it gaming, electricity or cable etc....
This is all the result of an out of control college system that has manufactured these social sciences of which their poorly educated students with agendas are running rampant in human resources in companies inflicting their fabricated social justices and it needs to be reined in asap because its getting utterly insane.
Imagine getting in an argument telling someone to f-off and die then some HR person at microsoft sees the recorded video and shuts off your access to all microsoft products.... its unimaginable but we are almost to that point.
And that negatively affects the game's stability if users start driving other users away from the game through negative and aggressive behavior.
So pretty well within the logical scope for Jagex to ban a player that was acting as a detractor to their community, even if by proxy.
Most 'suicidal' people or people that TALK about suicide dont really want to kill themselves theyre just looking for attention either to get legit help or to have people feel sorry for them.
I have known a few people that 'failed' at it and many that succeeded and they have the same thing in common more or less.
If this person REALLY wanted help I dont think a twitch streamer would be the go to. But then again people contemplating suicide arent thinking rationally in the first place I guess.
So like I said a touchy subject because how can we be sure the person was really wanting to kill themselves in the first place?
If recent events are any indication jumping to conclusions without all the facts or watching 30 seconds of a 2 hour long video is just irresponsible if youre going to start making judgments.
Correct and it needs to stop. We need some laws to protect peoples private lives, all of this amounts to nothing more that massive levels of personal harassment and often reaches epic levels of bullying, slander etc...as most anything can look bad when taken out of context. Its none of anyone's business if me and my brother have a disagreement over the internet and call call him a "fag" (i don't actually have a brother just an example). Don;t use the fallacy of calling it public domain because it happened on the internet either because it could just as easily been at the park and some random stranger video'd it and posted it.
I get it social media has rapidly evolved and many laws were not created to account for this stuff and that is the problem and it needs to change. Just like you cannot record someone without permission in many places some laws need to be implemented covering individuals from random people using and "recorded" things they typed on the internet or a social media platform. Stay out of my business you have no right to inject yourself into my private life.
A good example was this years heissman trophy winner for college football and some asshats digging up something he typed on his social media when he was 15 years old and demanding he not be eligible for the award because of it. This is really wrong and must be addressed.
So. Knowing it was wrong. . he lead people to believe he did it for attention. People enjoyed it of course . . like the enjoy watching two drunks fight. Inspiring people to do something even you think is too low. . class act.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.