Now if the people that do not want to put in the effort to raid and get the best gear would settle for the gear they work for. There would be no issues. Problem is people think they are entitled to every reward, no matter what playstyle they have themselves.
But why put the best equipment in the game behind a piece of content only a small % of people like to do? It doesn't make much sense. Now i don't care if the raid-locked equipment has a unique raid based appearance, that's fine. However, add similarly strong gear obtainable outside of the raid. It doesn't have to drop from a trash mob, make challenging non instanced content and put it there.
Let's remove current game limitations in this alternative.
Would you rather randonly find unique items through adventuring or unique quest and world events?
I would rather have a solid engaging and fun crafting system that allows me to make the best items in the game, as opposed to depending on RNG to get something.
I prefer this as well. The problem is, they then would add the RNG to crafting materials so we end up with exactly the same old grindy system but to earn materials instead of the actual piece of gear.
I think these systems just need a massive redesign.
As for the OP question, i prefer to earn my gear through open world adventuring and world events instead of being locked inside raids or pvp. Openworld adventuring and events can also be challenging and rewarding. If I don't do raids it means my character will never grow strong enough because i'm missing the best equipment.
I believe there should always bit a bit of luck involved in a good game system.
But, for example, lets use a crafting system. Lets say that a player has to earn ranks in crafting, like skinning for example, say higher ranks in skinning allow for a chance to safely pull a valuable part of a Creature, like say "The Heart of a Flame Drake" requires no less than 100 ranks to attempt, and even than, only gives a 5% chance to pull, and while flame drakes may not be uncommon in the world, they give a hell of a fight, because they are only around volcano, and like to live in lava and spit molten rock at you.
Equally so, lets take a Foraging Skill (Plants and stuff) but what is needed to reinforce and augment Troll Hide (Which requires 50 ranks in skinning to attempt, but becomes trivial at 100 ranks) is a solution made from YakYak Root, which can only be harvested in a hidden glade behind an annoying waterfall style jump puzzle, and still also requires 70 ranks in Foraging to even attempt.
Doing Crafting in this manner, makes it a journey to be a crafter, it is not a simple "Punch Tree" type of deal that most games throw at us.
It also makes someone who wants to craft, explore the world, as opposed to simply grind content.
Just my feels at this.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
But why put the best equipment in the game behind a piece of content only a small % of people like to do?
Why have an Olympics if only a small percentage of people will ever try to compete in the Olympics?
It may not be something you want to do, or choose to do, or have the time to do, now, but it is there as an opportunity if you elect to give it a try.
I like that there are things in games in which I may someday take an interest, even if today is not that day. There are, for example, games where I got into PvP, though I normally don't enjoy that. And there have been games where I got into high end crafting, though again, not usually my thing. And I have done progression raiding as well. I didn't go into a game looking to do those things, but things change.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
But why put the best equipment in the game behind a piece of content only a small % of people like to do?
Why have an Olympics if only a small percentage of people will ever try to compete in the Olympics?
It may not be something you want to do, or choose to do, or have the time to do, now, but it is there as an opportunity if you elect to give it a try.
I like that there are things in games in which I may someday take an interest, even if today is not that day. There are, for example, games where I got into PvP, though I normally don't enjoy that. And there have been games where I got into high end crafting, though again, not usually my thing. And I have done progression raiding as well. I didn't go into a game looking to do those things, but things change.
That's not really a good comparison. You don't enter the Olympics to not compete, or even have to option to slide off the edge of a pool instead of jumping off a high board.
On the other hand, you purchase a game to play it.
To your point, it's OK to have stuff for later or never. That's why i said on the post you quoted that they could have strong gear that has unique raid themed appearance be tied to the raid while also offering equally strong but different looking gear outside.
It doesn't have to have the same stats, just similar power level for people who prefer to do difficult content that is not instanced like world bosses, events, or puzzles. Otherwise non raiders are just being punished and always have subpar characters.
I really prefer open world bosses. Everyone comes and if well organized you beat the boss and it's done. Collect your stuff and move on. If you come too late you get kicked to overflow in which there may or may not be enough bodies to win. I've had a lot of fun in overflow and have helped beat the Boss with very little time to spare. That was fun.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I don't mind grinding. I don't mind farming stuff for crafting, reputation, spell components, etc. That's what these games are all about and that's what they will be.
The current design with raiding as an endgame and the rest of the game being just a filler content to get you there is what is terribly wrong in the genre. As a cherry on the top, they also tend to make it very easy for players to get there.
1. I hate RNG. You do the work, you get the reward. You wouldn't work 40 hours a week to get a loot roll on your paycheck that has a 99% chance to give you nothing and a 1% chance to give you $30k, so why would you want that in your leisure entertainment that is supposed to be fun?
2. The higher up the power scale you go the smaller each successive gain is. A power curve should look like the blue line, not the red.
3. The gearing process should be just as dependent on skill as it is on time invested. Games like BDO that require you to complete literally zero difficult content to acquire best in slot gear on your own are not a good design. I much preferred B&S where you had to get rare drops from difficult, often solo, content.
Love the graph. Smacks of mathematics.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
For myself, I'd prefer that there would be no distinction between weapons. After all, a bronze sword and an iron sword that creates a wound of identical sizes does the same amount of 'damage' to a target. The important factor is the location of that wound. For instance, a gash that is .5" deep is nothing on the forearm, but much more serious on the neck.
I've never really favored base stats on gear. I have always preferred a more historic approach -- everyone buys (or is issued) their weapons and armor. The difference is on the man (character) rather than the gear and how the man uses that gear.
So, I'd prefer a system where the question of acquiring items from grind vs. raid is mostly immaterial.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
For myself, I'd prefer that there would be no distinction between weapons. After all, a bronze sword and an iron sword that creates a wound of identical sizes does the same amount of 'damage' to a target.
In most cases the swords are magic. So they can be worlds apart.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
For myself, I'd prefer that there would be no distinction between weapons. After all, a bronze sword and an iron sword that creates a wound of identical sizes does the same amount of 'damage' to a target.
In most cases the swords are magic. So they can be worlds apart.
What about a preference where magic is active only and not 'stored' in items? My preference is for there not to be any form of permanent enchantment, especially on items. We are talking preferences here, not just the way most games do it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Balance. I agree that the best equipment should not all locked behind one gate of content. What happens with that is that everyone who is aiming for that gear will only experience that one line of content (raiding in this example). Rather, that gear should be split up to where they are acquired from all lines. Take for example a set of armor; (greaves, gauntlets, legs, torso, helmet). Rather then everything go "first boss drops this, second boss drops this, third boss drops this piece." Have it go "first boss drops this piece, exploring/questing drops this piece, pvp vendor has this piece, world boss has this piece, and then craft this piece."
That way the best gear isn't in the hands of one person who just does one thing over and over, but rather a well-rounded player who does a little bit of everything. Because if you move it into "You just craft all the best gear," then you're just moving the locked gate, not getting rid of it because now people who hate crafting systems now has to do it, or "world boss drops all the best gear," that guy who would rather just pvp all day now has to sit at a world boss spawn for the next hour or so. Give the best gear to not a specialist dedicated to one field that some players dedicated to another line would never go into, but rather a balanced player who go out of their comfort zone to experience all lines of content that the developers put into the game.
Let's remove current game limitations in this alternative.
Would you rather randonly find unique items through adventuring or unique quest and world events?
I would rather have a solid engaging and fun crafting system that allows me to make the best items in the game, as opposed to depending on RNG to get something.
I prefer this as well. The problem is, they then would add the RNG to crafting materials so we end up with exactly the same old grindy system but to earn materials instead of the actual piece of gear.
I think these systems just need a massive redesign.
As for the OP question, i prefer to earn my gear through open world adventuring and world events instead of being locked inside raids or pvp. Openworld adventuring and events can also be challenging and rewarding. If I don't do raids it means my character will never grow strong enough because i'm missing the best equipment.
The predictability of modern games is one of the things that drove me away. There's just no feeling of adventure.
For myself, I'd prefer that there would be no distinction between weapons. After all, a bronze sword and an iron sword that creates a wound of identical sizes does the same amount of 'damage' to a target.
In most cases the swords are magic. So they can be worlds apart.
What about a preference where magic is active only and not 'stored' in items? My preference is for there not to be any form of permanent enchantment, especially on items. We are talking preferences here, not just the way most games do it.
The thing is, without magic, what you have is a medieval simulator. And while there's nothing wrong with that, I prefer fantasy games.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If content is fun to play I honestly don't give a shit if powerful gear is hidden behind said content. Unlike destiny players I wouldn't fire into a cave for hours just to get loot drops.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Let's remove current game limitations in this alternative.
Would you rather randonly find unique items through adventuring or unique quest and world events?
I would rather have a solid engaging and fun crafting system that allows me to make the best items in the game, as opposed to depending on RNG to get something.
I prefer this as well. The problem is, they then would add the RNG to crafting materials so we end up with exactly the same old grindy system but to earn materials instead of the actual piece of gear.
I think these systems just need a massive redesign.
As for the OP question, i prefer to earn my gear through open world adventuring and world events instead of being locked inside raids or pvp. Openworld adventuring and events can also be challenging and rewarding. If I don't do raids it means my character will never grow strong enough because i'm missing the best equipment.
The predictability of modern games is one of the things that drove me away. There's just no feeling of adventure.
many modern games make me feel the same way as well. It's unfortunate.
The problem with having no real progression in terms of raiding you end up with a very bland single player game with a chat room. I liked the way eq did it during RoK days. A lot of the good items you had a rare drops from end dungeons, some pieces were from raiding. So it was a mix of raiding and group content. You would only be missing out on a few pieces of gear by not raiding and maybe have slightly weaker weapons.
For myself, I'd prefer that there would be no distinction between weapons. After all, a bronze sword and an iron sword that creates a wound of identical sizes does the same amount of 'damage' to a target.
In most cases the swords are magic. So they can be worlds apart.
What about a preference where magic is active only and not 'stored' in items? My preference is for there not to be any form of permanent enchantment, especially on items. We are talking preferences here, not just the way most games do it.
The thing is, without magic, what you have is a medieval simulator. And while there's nothing wrong with that, I prefer fantasy games.
You can still have magic, just not magic effects 'stored' into items. Spells can be cast, and there's plenty of creatures that can keep the element of fantasy in a game. Without stat gear, it would probably challenge people's concept of an RPG first.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Screeps does brilliantly for not having raids. Even as an MMORTS, it tends to have a little more RPG in it than quite a few MMORPGs (even if your role is a bit more preset).
Haven and Hearth doesn't have raids. And high quality gear is still quite an achievement, requiring multiple crafting paths, and enough of an investment in resources that it still requires guilds/towns to make/protect.
Worlds Adrift doesn't look to ever really go the raid path. and it's advancement still feels pretty nice the first time around, and pretty amazing after you add in trade/crew mechanics (of how you're able to jump each other's advancement forward temporarily, and with interesting trade offs for it). (Though the second time around at least solo-ish it feels pretty bad).
_______________________
So Screeps has a type of infinite leveling wall (though it has the least affect out of these three, since player skill/stockpiling/planning can let you brutally break out of "level limits"), Haven and Hearth has an infinite grind wall, and Worlds Adrift has a RNG wall.
It does feel great not having that Raid wall in them. I find it a little annoying that the Raid Wall is like the only wall being discussed, even if it is the most frequent.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I find it a little annoying that the Raid Wall is like the only wall being discussed, even if it is the most frequent.
The largest issue with raids, is needing to put up with other people's shit, and all too often these other people are assholes, and just kill the fun out of the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think if you are playing a game with a variety of activities in it you should accept that you have to do all the activities to get all the rewards. As a non-PvP player, I remember doing battlegrounds in WoW to get one of the PvP mounts. I got the mount and found out I actually like battlegrounds, or don't' mind them anyways, I'd like them if there were some kind of team paring method that looked player and item level, not just counting heads.
I would prefer for raids to not be scripted and repeatable. I would love to see magical gear created in multiple ways.
Maybe helping killing a powerful beast would have a chance to enchant a piece of gear or killing a lot of the same enemy could make your gear a bane towards the enemy.
Crafters make legendary gear randomly.
Random world events drop good gear. Random quest could drop good gear.
I would like to see focus off creating games based on end game raiding as the only way to get to gear.
Maybe helping killing a powerful beast would have a chance to enchant a piece of gear ...
I like this idea, but I do not trust what the RNG will produce. Next thing I know my Ranger's sword will be +100 Intellect and +50 to charisma. Squeeeeee.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Maybe helping killing a powerful beast would have a chance to enchant a piece of gear ...
I like this idea, but I do not trust what the RNG will produce. Next thing I know my Ranger's sword will be +100 Intellect and +50 to charisma. Squeeeeee.
Yeah I would like to see MMORPG think outside the box some. I guess the whole theme themepark phase has stunted the growth of MMORPG in other ways.
Comments
I had fun once, it was terrible.
But, for example, lets use a crafting system. Lets say that a player has to earn ranks in crafting, like skinning for example, say higher ranks in skinning allow for a chance to safely pull a valuable part of a Creature, like say "The Heart of a Flame Drake" requires no less than 100 ranks to attempt, and even than, only gives a 5% chance to pull, and while flame drakes may not be uncommon in the world, they give a hell of a fight, because they are only around volcano, and like to live in lava and spit molten rock at you.
Equally so, lets take a Foraging Skill (Plants and stuff) but what is needed to reinforce and augment Troll Hide (Which requires 50 ranks in skinning to attempt, but becomes trivial at 100 ranks) is a solution made from YakYak Root, which can only be harvested in a hidden glade behind an annoying waterfall style jump puzzle, and still also requires 70 ranks in Foraging to even attempt.
Doing Crafting in this manner, makes it a journey to be a crafter, it is not a simple "Punch Tree" type of deal that most games throw at us.
It also makes someone who wants to craft, explore the world, as opposed to simply grind content.
Just my feels at this.
It may not be something you want to do, or choose to do, or have the time to do, now, but it is there as an opportunity if you elect to give it a try.
I like that there are things in games in which I may someday take an interest, even if today is not that day. There are, for example, games where I got into PvP, though I normally don't enjoy that. And there have been games where I got into high end crafting, though again, not usually my thing. And I have done progression raiding as well. I didn't go into a game looking to do those things, but things change.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The current design with raiding as an endgame and the rest of the game being just a filler content to get you there is what is terribly wrong in the genre. As a cherry on the top, they also tend to make it very easy for players to get there.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
That way the best gear isn't in the hands of one person who just does one thing over and over, but rather a well-rounded player who does a little bit of everything. Because if you move it into "You just craft all the best gear," then you're just moving the locked gate, not getting rid of it because now people who hate crafting systems now has to do it, or "world boss drops all the best gear," that guy who would rather just pvp all day now has to sit at a world boss spawn for the next hour or so. Give the best gear to not a specialist dedicated to one field that some players dedicated to another line would never go into, but rather a balanced player who go out of their comfort zone to experience all lines of content that the developers put into the game.
Once upon a time....
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Maybe helping killing a powerful beast would have a chance to enchant a piece of gear or killing a lot of the same enemy could make your gear a bane towards the enemy.
Crafters make legendary gear randomly.
Random world events drop good gear. Random quest could drop good gear.
I would like to see focus off creating games based on end game raiding as the only way to get to gear.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Raids? Don't have a problem with it.
Wasting time away on repetitive tasks is what I hate. Raiding can be a fun and social activity, not always but sometimes.
I LOVE the idea of being able find something spectacular anywhere, even with a very low chance. That's my ideal system.