Do you like power gated behind raids and grinds?

Vermillion_Raventhal

Let's remove current game limitations in this alternative.   

Would you rather randonly find unique items through adventuring or unique quest and world events?

Wizardry

Well in a video game it is really a tough nut to crack,i thought about it a lot.

The problem with finding items ,keyword FIND,is two things,uncovered once nd for all to know ,so no longer hidden and two if a drop of any kind is merely a % drop,meaning just kill enough times and you will receive said item.

However in saying those two things,drops are treated the exact same way anyhow.A boss will have a loot table soon known to all and drop rates are merely a %.This is why i have long detested RAID type content,it is NOT any different than regular content,math is always present and the result is th esame,the only thing that changes is gating the loot table behind that boss.

Let's also be honest,BOSS fights are NOT unique or even difficult,very soon after the first team kills a boss MANY afterwards also achieve the same result,pretty much everyone attains the same result.The only time i can remember an actual Boss being so hard to figure out was in FFXI with Absolute Virtue,nobody figured that one out for a very long time.

Answer...fix?? Like i said i thought about it lot over the years,the ONLY way to do MMO content is imo to SINGLE out the individual with some form of randomized content so not too easy to figure out.A developer could write the code to form randomized content but even then there is a limit to how much,like you make a list of let's say 100 different outcomes per idea,it doesn't matter,soon after a list of 100 possible choices arrives on WIKI.

So the best way which is also a LOT of work for a developer is several systems and several random outcomes to quests hat have several parts.Basically to put it simple think of a combination lock,the more numbers,possible outcomes the harder it is to crack unless actually doing the content yourself.

Ungood

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Let's remove current game limitations in this alternative.   

Would you rather randonly find unique items through adventuring or unique quest and world events?

I would rather have a solid engaging and fun crafting system that allows me to make the best items in the game, as opposed to depending on RNG to get something. 

anemo

I guess grind and raid walls are fine for people roleplaying a character that is seeking to climb up some sort of Adventurer Guild Corporate Ladder thing.

But it's kind of lame for people that want to play something else.

_____________________

It's also worth mentioning that raid walls encourage lazy design where the designer only needs to worry about the FINALE, rather than the journey.   Along with pigeon hole-ing the designers of pretty much only having one place to shove rewards.   Further those rewards need to be the "best" for every class/build/whatever since a raid pretty much needs one of everything for completing.

Octagon7711

I'm kinda use to grinds in games since the early days have trained me so well, I just zone out and get into a state of Zen.  That said, things are a lot better now then they were in the past, little to no death penalties,  xp potions, 200% XP weekends, or if you have money to burn... instant level potions, or even options to start expansions with a fully leveled and geared new character included.  

I don't do raids and do limited constantly changing gear grinds.  I do like personal stories, ongoing stories, public bosses, dungeons, dynamic events, and other such events.  

Caffynated

I would say yes but with some strong caveats.

1. I hate RNG. You do the work, you get the reward. You wouldn't work 40 hours a week to get a loot roll on your paycheck that has a 99% chance to give you nothing and a 1% chance to give you $30k, so why would you want that in your leisure entertainment that is supposed to be fun?

2. The higher up the power scale you go the smaller each successive gain is. A power curve should look like the blue line, not the red.

3. The gearing process should be just as dependent on skill as it is on time invested. Games like BDO that require you to complete literally zero difficult content to acquire best in slot gear on your own are not a good design. I much preferred B&S where you had to get rare drops from difficult, often solo, content.

iixviiiix

Yes , i mean , why not ?

But the main problem i have is bind items and level requirement .

For example in older MMORPGs , i can easy get an item that higher level than me by trade with other . But the problem is i lack of level to equip them , and that's suck . You get the items but have to grind weeks to use them .

And I don't want to pay for other to do leveling for me by log in my account .

I don't mind the item is raid only or you have to grind a lots to create it , but i hate bind items and level require to use them .

And boss drop only items is suck as people keep the boss for themselves . A lots old MMORPG have Unique items drop random from normal mobs while bosses have higher change to drop them so everyone can have a change to get the items.

LackingMMO

I don't think I should find the same quality item while I solo half afk killing random trash mobs as I would from the legendry undefeated warrior king that took 30 people 2 hours to coordinate together with a couple wipes finally being dropped.. 


I think there should be rewards for whatever route you go but they should scale accordingly.

Hariken

I never do these big raids so I never have the best gear. So yeah it sucks because I'm not the only one that hates raids.

LackingMMO

Hariken said:

I never do these big raids so I never have the best gear. So yeah it sucks because I'm not the only one that hates raids.

I've done both, when pantheon comes out not sure where ill be(since that's probably the next pve game with raids ill be playing). You don't always need the best, but as long as you are equipped for the contend you can do who "needs" the raid gear if you have the tier right under it?

laserit

Modern flight sims have a 1:1 scale of the earth and in amazing detail for many regions, no loading screens, active/live weather. 

Imagine an MMORPG on a scale like that. One where there is only one server. I would have loved to have seen the AI described in EQ3 come to fruition.

A big massive Conan Exiles like game. With places of interest and killer AI

I'd love to play a game like that before I kick the bucket

Pemmin

depends on how the games setup

if its an open ended sandbox style game then yes. you should get  specialized rewards based on what you choose to do

if its themepark where the only endgame is raiding then no, because the narrative becomes link gear showing you have raid on farm status.

there is a difference between a fun timegate and a barrier to entry

WalkinGlenn

*sigh*... how about game companies just make an option for the instant gratification crown where immediately following charters creation you instantly have all the max gear in the game..

d_20

I like the way ESO handles this the best. They do have raids (trials) and some difficult dungeons for the people who want to grind them in groups and get OP sets (Doylemish for a certain Warden builds, for example). But I don't want to grind those and I don't begrudge the people who do of having their sets. 

I can still get pretty good sets either by buying BOE pieces for gold, crafting, and putting together certain dungeon sets. I can solo normal mode dungeons and with crafting improve the gear. So I may not have the extreme very best pieces, or the hot flavor of the month meta,  but they are still very good and I'm happy with that. And they don't get outdated like in WoW.

Sovrath

iixviiiix said:

Yes , i mean , why not ?

But the main problem i have is bind items and level requirement .

For example in older MMORPGs , i can easy get an item that higher level than me by trade with other . But the problem is i lack of level to equip them , and that's suck . You get the items but have to grind weeks to use them .

And I don't want to pay for other to do leveling for me by log in my account .

I don't mind the item is raid only or you have to grind a lots to create it , but i hate bind items and level require to use them .

And boss drop only items is suck as people keep the boss for themselves . A lots old MMORPG have Unique items drop random from normal mobs while bosses have higher change to drop them so everyone can have a change to get the items.

this.

SirAgravaine

Variety is the spice of life. Why not both?

iixviiiix

WalkinGlenn said:

*sigh*... how about game companies just make an option for the instant gratification crown where immediately following charters creation you instantly have all the max gear in the game..

That will break the game dude .

For example if items are freely trade , one who want raid gears but don't want raid can do other contents and trade items with the one who raid the boss . If no one raid boss then there are are no item to trade .

That's fair game

But if you give out everything at start then the game will become broken .

Basically the problem here is the developer forced player to play as they want , a railed ride . It's fine in singleplayer game , but multiplayer game is more complex .

In my case , i have a lots free time , but my work require me to check stuffs each 20 minutes or 30 minutes or being called random , sometime it take me few minute to half hour of game break afk (well , i mostly log out when it take hours to finish my work) .  So i have to avoid group content as it require other people

That's why my main active in online game is solo content or contents that i can afk break in middle of play

So what do i want ? a game where i can have difference play styles . I don't need instant gratification where they give out everything , but i want alts ways to get to my goal , i don't want to get forced into developer's play style .

Blueliner

yes, raids and grinds should be the main method of obtaining top tier gear in a PvE game. Crafted items could be equal or even better than dropped items if and only if the components are rare drops or rare harvests.

Cryomatrix

Why not everything you do gives good and unique drops. Crafting can give good stuff perhaps unqiue mods that are useful. Raids and grinds and random drops.

Exploring, etc. The way to make everyone involved is to allow people to compete in the way they like.

So crafting, raiding, grinding, exploring, lucky drops, life skills, diplomacy, whatever should give different rewards but equally potent in their own way.

Xasapis

I read the topic and I thought:

"Do you want power gated behind challenges and goals?"

Ultimately these are what you're describing OP. 

mmolou

I would actually prefer player crafting to provide the most powerful/top tier items in a game, with MOB drops providing a close second in terms of power.
Raiding has its place, but locking the best gear behind it can be problematic.

As for grinding, I hate it with a passion, have done ever since grinding out rep at 1 point per mob kill to get exalted cenarion circle way back when.

k61977

I don't like the most powerful things being locked behind raids myself, but that is just personal preference.   I would rather see these things be locked behind gather out in the world.  The better the item the longer and more things it would take to create it.  I don't want to sit in one spot and grind things for hours either though.  You could put some items on mobs for drops with decent drop rates, some things with quest rewards, and even some being small group content, but nothing over 5 people for me. 

My biggest gripe I had with WoW in particular was once I got tired of the raid treadmill it meant I would no longer be able to see content, get decent gear, ect... they did fix that to some extent with the raid finder which is the only way I will raid now. 

Overall though you are not going to find one solution that is going to make everyone happy.  Everyone is different an likes different things.  Me, I got tired of trying to herd cats to finish things in something that was suppose to be relaxing, so I prefer small group and solo play styles now.

Amathe

I don't have a problem with the most powerful items coming from raids.

Ungood

Torval said:

skadad said:

Now if the people that do not want to put in the effort to raid and get the best gear would settle for the gear they work for. There would be no issues. Problem is people think they are entitled to every reward, no matter what playstyle they have themselves.

The people that want good loot drops are playing other games now. Problem solved. No one cares about getting raid drops or second rate gear for not raiding. That's a big reason why MMOs are dying. People who don't raid have moved on to better games.

Yup. No one is going to stay in a game and feel like a second class citizen. Especially if they are expected to pay a subscription to do so.

They will move on to any game that offers them what they want, leaving all the raiders in their dying game.

Too often however, the raiders move on and go to the next game as well, following the herd, and cry that they are not treated like the special snowflakes they feel entitled to be.

They will cry and whine for raids to be put in, and either the Devs will succumb and give them their content and the cycle repeats with the non-raiders now looking for a new MMO to move on to, or the Devs tell them to suck it and the game carries on without them.

rojoArcueid

Ungood said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Let's remove current game limitations in this alternative.   

Would you rather randonly find unique items through adventuring or unique quest and world events?

I would rather have a solid engaging and fun crafting system that allows me to make the best items in the game, as opposed to depending on RNG to get something. 

I prefer this as well. The problem is, they then would add the RNG to crafting materials so we end up with exactly the same old grindy system but to earn materials instead of the actual piece of gear.

I think these systems just need a massive redesign.

As for the OP question, i prefer to earn my gear through open world adventuring and world events instead of being locked inside raids or pvp. Openworld adventuring and events can also be challenging and rewarding. If I don't do raids it means my character will never grow strong enough because i'm missing the best equipment.

WalkinGlenn

iixviiiix said:

WalkinGlenn said:

*sigh*... how about game companies just make an option for the instant gratification crown where immediately following charters creation you instantly have all the max gear in the game..

That will break the game dude .

For example if items are freely trade , one who want raid gears but don't want raid can do other contents and trade items with the one who raid the boss . If no one raid boss then there are are no item to trade .

That's fair game

But if you give out everything at start then the game will become broken .

Basically the problem here is the developer forced player to play as they want , a railed ride . It's fine in singleplayer game , but multiplayer game is more complex .

In my case , i have a lots free time , but my work require me to check stuffs each 20 minutes or 30 minutes or being called random , sometime it take me few minute to half hour of game break afk (well , i mostly log out when it take hours to finish my work) .  So i have to avoid group content as it require other people

That's why my main active in online game is solo content or contents that i can afk break in middle of play

So what do i want ? a game where i can have difference play styles . I don't need instant gratification where they give out everything , but i want alts ways to get to my goal , i don't want to get forced into developer's play style .

It was sarcasm, mah dewd.