"Why AAA Gaming Industry Sucks (2 Root Issues)" "...and how we have gotten to where we are"
LOLZ
"We" are here because of lil kids belive everything what devs/publisher say. Example : wtf "AAA" even means, i keep hearing it everywhere, dont remember anyone said that even 7 years ago.
And ofcourse those paid "professional" reviewers. (RESIDENT EVIL 2. "Game critics awards best of E3 2018. Winner :best of show." What kind of reward is that? What does it even mean? Its 2019 now.)
Look at people on twitch/YT. Kids throw em money so now they are famous and rich. But what they actually did? Nothing. Same with your beloved game companies, they just have insane amount of naive kids carrying em on their shoulders.
Its all mythical pirates, blame them for everything... Its so funny. Piracy doesnt exist! Its should be clear for every mmo player. Look at Balizzard and D3 - wasnt pirated. Failed at the start. No content, even f2p games have more content. Died. Competition, leaderboards? Nobody cares, alot of people, even streamers used bots. But even dead game was released on consoles, even on switch. Thats big money. What they did to their fans after that? Continue spitting. Hey, slaves...you like it before, why you complaining now all of a sudden?
F76. Another example. No mythical pirates to blame...so blame the players. How dare they complain after they bought our slave collar...amazing game?!
TESO. Was sub only..failed. B2p with sub option now. Has loot boxes... And house for 12k+ crowns. Yesterday was maintenace they broke something so EU server got 4 (i think) extra hours. But even after than game wasnt fixed..so they did maintenance again.
And that LGBT BS. They use to add Black people to the game to get attention. So thats not that good now? Its all PR...its so weak, so disgusting. How those transgenders belive them that devs do that for their support? Look what they did with Overwatch. Fanservice everywhere. They just used em like politicians before elections. And what about the game? Its just another contentless stupid competitive time killer for lil kids. Isnt it Dead or alive alike?
Theres no quality. But quantity oriented small corporations.
Most gamers dont even realize this and think they are getting exactly what they want because they are getting what they liked in the past, just re-skinned over and over and over.
I only read on here I don't have the time to watch people talk.
Agree with much of what the OP has said, what he missed was this occurred as big business moved into the newly lucrative world of gaming. Where do the top executives go? Where the most money is made, this situation only really started in the 80/90's before then it was expected that the top guys had experience in the industry they where running. Now they go where the money is and over the last ten years gaming has moved into the really big league.
That's why the last CEO of EA had a career in Haagen-Dazs and a chemical company before joining EA with no experience of the gaming world. Gaming was always lucrative but once you move into the big league the rules change and the loot boxes etc come in.
The only other thing is the OP downplays other factors, there are not two main ones, they all form part of the "cockuptail" that got us to this point.
OK I have to ask is @Gdemami using a bot? he got that lol in as I was editing my post.
The interesting factoid i got from that graph, is that PC games have shown consistent growth, more so than consoles, as for mobile gaming, i wonder how much of that would remain if the Chinese/Asian revenue was removed, i suspect it would be closer to 'arcade' amounts in terms of revenue. Either way, the mobile revenue being so dependant on China etc. is a weakness that could cause it to collapse rapidly, PC and Console games aren't dependent on single region revenue after all so would easily weather out such a collapse.
One of the reasons that I really detest gaming companies going public is because the vast majority of the investors do not understand the product, and they don't understand the product consumer.
If you're a company that specializes in tooth care, then your product and your customer are easy to understand. They want to keep their teeth, clean, shiny and healthy and they want the product they buy to guarantee that it will. Not only that, but they will continue to buy your product month after month. Both brushes and paste will fly off the shelves day after day.
Gaming is completely different beast. Both the product and consumer are difficult to manage. Building a game that players want to play is both time consuming and expensive. The ROI isn't always guaranteed. Your players may have loved the first two games in your series, but for a myriad of reasons, they hate the third game and maybe you dumped more resources into the third one than the first two combined and it's a dud.
This is why you see the big studios almost completely unwilling to take risks. They shit out another Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty like clockwork without fail. Almost zero innovation, just the same game in a different location with a different skin.
But then putting out a yearly installment just isn't good enough anymore for the investors. Sure, you're making money year after year, but you're not making more money. Profits have to rise every single quarter of every single year for investors to make money, so that yearly AC release isn't good enough. Get out there and find another way to make more money.
So what do they do? They hold back parts of the game and sell it to you piecemeal. The come up with ridiculous bullshit digital items and hold them back in "collectors" or "platinum" editions. They put loot boxes in your game with randomized garbage so that you'll spend and spend until you have the things you want.
With investors behind gaming, the hobby is only going to get worse and worse and worse. Ways to monetize gaming are going crop up that you never though of before and you'll be begging to have DLC back because the new crap will be so ridiculous. A few years ago, I joked that one day in Call of Duty, you'll run out of ammo and a window will pop up asking you if you want to buy more ammo for your character for that life. In one night of good play, you could ring up another $20 worth of transactions in the heat of the moment. I'm not so sure it's a joke anymore.
The best gaming studios don't go public. They don't anchor themselves to investors. They create a set of principles and anchor themselves to the principles instead.
Even the much vaunted and highly praised CD Projekt Red will one day be cursed to hell in these very forums when their investors come back and say "What the fuck do you mean in your tweet when you said you wouldn't monetize a single player RPG? You had better monetize it or I'll put my money in another company!"
Investors are, hands down, the worst thing to happen to gaming... and I'm a capitalist at heart. It's just that the people expecting a return don't understand why the business works in the first place and they see us as living breathing atm machines that they can punch a pin number into every day and make another withdrawal.
At least the toothpaste company doesn't sell the cap separate from the toothpaste at the counter and make you buy it back so it doesn't squirt all over your car on the way home.
I don't think the problem can just be pinned on "investors". It is the investor executive relationship, it is the philosophy that the Investors are the Principal agent, and the executive's role is to get them high returns. Thus, they get more compensation on stock options than on delvering real market value. This wasn't always the predominant way the Corporation was run, even those like Jack Welch thing shareholder value maximization is a stupid philosophy.
I don't think it can run on forever though. Consumers will eventually become resistant to it. It may seem like it can go on forever, but the evolution of modern game monetization is a blip on the radar of time for the lifespans of corporations and monopolies.
"A few years ago, I joked that one day in Call of Duty, you'll run out of ammo and a window will pop up asking you if you want to buy more ammo"
They put a reticle in the COD cash shop recently hahaha.
Anyways, consumers will eventually have had enough, and just have much less interest in purchasing. Looking at the steep drop in the market it might seem like we are starting to hit that point. If not now, the day will come.
We must get back to the original role of the corporation/organization. When real market value was the most important metric, and shareholder returns were a result. Returns are important, but they are not the main focus. Whenever they become the main focus it hurts the whole system.
Love this, Would like to add a few things about the market in general.
This mostly pertains to the overall DOW and Mutual funds, but also individual stocks. When a company delivers a new product they search for high rolling investors, but the majority are common people simply looking to make some money...... Executives have the ability to reach in and take what ever they want, this is called stock options, much like Casino management taking from gamblers. The thing is, more profit, more take.
To achieve this from both the high rollers and the common people they need to develop trust.
Their was talk here about investors not understanding THIS market. Understanding or not, Video Games are not a trustworthy investment because of shady business practices based on past history. This includes Triple A.
Companies need to rebuild trust in an overall tainted market !!!
**mmorpg's are in the toilet with no chance of recovery !!! **
I see OP's point but i have trouble complaining about entertainment in a capitalistic society. Shit is lame, but that is capitalism.
Entertainment = a luxury
So it isnt a necessity, the issue is when people do this lame crap with necessitieis.
My issues with MMO sucking is 99% lack of innovation. The game is the same as always and the same it has been in 2 decades basically.
Funny thing is, the majority of indie game efforts are built on a foundation or promise of bringing back and building on the gameplay of MMORPGs created 20 years ago.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I see OP's point but i have trouble complaining about entertainment in a capitalistic society. Shit is lame, but that is capitalism.
Entertainment = a luxury
So it isnt a necessity, the issue is when people do this lame crap with necessitieis.
My issues with MMO sucking is 99% lack of innovation. The game is the same as always and the same it has been in 2 decades basically.
Funny thing is, the majority of indie game efforts are built on a foundation or promise of bringing back and building on the gameplay of MMORPGs created 20 years ago.
Weird.
I don't think its weird... Thats a time where mmorpg's were made, its been 10 years since we had one.
I only read on here I don't have the time to watch people talk.
Agree with much of what the OP has said, what he missed was this occurred as big business moved into the newly lucrative world of gaming. Where do the top executives go? Where the most money is made, this situation only really started in the 80/90's before then it was expected that the top guys had experience in the industry they where running. Now they go where the money is and over the last ten years gaming has moved into the really big league.
That's why the last CEO of EA had a career in Haagen-Dazs and a chemical company before joining EA with no experience of the gaming world. Gaming was always lucrative but once you move into the big league the rules change and the loot boxes etc come in.
The only other thing is the OP downplays other factors, there are not two main ones, they all form part of the "cockuptail" that got us to this point.
OK I have to ask is @Gdemami using a bot? he got that lol in as I was editing my post.
Yeah I see what you're saying. The point I was making is that even big business wasn't always handled this way either, and a lot of major figures in the big business world spoke in disdain towards this kind of thinking "shareholder value maximization".
But I agree with the cocktail. I guess I was trying to get to the structural source that kind of spawns it all.
Marvelous post, @Izkimar, and very acute analysis. I didn't watch your video (not my thing).
One factor that may be muddling the waters is the rise of crowdfunding. I've honestly thought for some time that the developers employing crowdfunding *instead of* traditional funding are attempting to bypass the notion of shareholders, and do the job themselves, as opposed to having responsibility to a higher authority. Doing so, they are attempting to be self-funded without actually having the funds themselves, thus maintaining the core benefits of shareholder/principles in their own hands. There are multiple examples currently (and probably in the past) where these self-appointed/self-approved efforts really show the need for 'an adult in the room'.
I totally agree that MMORPGs have invested absolutely nothing into R&D. That could even be extended to cover anything that is considered 'RPG'. All RPG game systems are alarmingly close to the 1970's D&D model, with few games straying from the systems laid down in those three miserable (and heavily worn) books. The pen-and-paper at least had some rationale behind the fundamentally analog decisions -- people aren't comfortable with math beyond adding and subtracting integer numbers. The cRPGs (starting from the 1980s) and the MMORPGs (starting from the late 1990s) still use integer numbers, even though the 'human processing unit' has been replaced by computers that excel with mathematics. So, we're stuck with AC and HPs and Levels and the like because D&D did it that way. From a computer standpoint, the functional layer and presentation layer are the same.
The genre needs to rethink quite a few fundamentals in order to evolve. Problem is, no company (to my knowledge) is actively pursuing concepts beyond the pnp basics. (And not even the White Wolf variations). Without this R&D, the games we see will never grow. (Bit of a pet peeve of mine).
Thanks for an thoughtful and thought-provoking post.
Post edited by Mendel on
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
No matter how many times I see it said, I just can't get behind the idea that modern gaming--AAA or otherwise--doesn't provide a good value. The average price of games and gaming hardware is nearly identical to what it was 30 years ago, and I can't even begin to guess the average amount of time played per game then (less) compared to now (more). Seriously, what other entertainment industry can say it hasn't pushed increased costs on the consumer in the last 3 decades?
The only real difference now is that we can't rent them and demos are no longer commonplace, although all major platforms refund you within a couple hours/weeks of purchase, so that's still not really a strike against the consumer.
For my mind, there has never been a better time to be a gamer. There are so many options that you can easily find whatever experience you're looking for, and with the amount of media coverage the industry gets, if you blindly buy a game and get burned, I can't help feeling that's on you. Not to mention the countless free-to-play games on every platform that you can sink dozens of hours into without ever spending a dime.
Taste is subjective...there will always be people who like one thing and not another, and other people who like the inverse. But I don't agree that value is the issue when it comes to games like Red Dead Redemption 2, Assassin's Creed, God of War, Civilization 6, or even Battle for Azeroth. At least not when compared to the value of gaming in the past. This is an industry that was built on forcing more and more quarters out of you, so I certainly don't see how now is any different.
That's a small handful of examples in a market that is constantly putting out titles that is aimed at exploiting the gaming audience. Look at recent examples of EA, ActiBlizz, Bethesda, etc. Yes I recognize there are outliers even within the AAA industry, but the problem lies at first principles with business structure.
Battle for Azeroth is objectively bad. It is a shell of a game, and offers a very shallow gameplay experience. It is a terribly designed skinner box. The new Arathi, Warfronts, Island expeditions. Etc. etc.
"Objectively" ... queue the Princess Bride "You keep using that word" meme. It's so strange that everyone is so certain that their point of view is a true snapshot of the majority. My handful of examples is a varied collection of recent AAA franchises, but even if I'd used the franchises that soak up all the internet tears like Call of Duty, Battlefield, and Fallout76, I still wouldn't agree that their problems lie in lack of value.
Hell, even in the MMO genre you have several games like ESO or Guild Wars 2 with a $20 box price, an optional subscription fee, and how much content? Shout from the rooftops that the type of content in many popular games has no value to you and nobody could argue, but as a pure ratio of price to content, the amount of gameplay to be had from a standard $60USD price point has never been higher.
A lot of people love McDonalds too!
And they should be able to eat it if they want to, and in peace, without a bunch of people giving them crap for eating cheap, greasy food. If the simple knowledge that a lot of people are eating at McDonalds can prevent you from enjoying whatever "objectively better" food you're eating, I don't think the problem lies with them.
proof of his point is all the battle royal and survival games that seem to be all that been made for along time, cheap to make and for a fast cash grab with no real content will admit arc survival was decent and iv got 2500 hrs there but most are not and once you have played 1 the others have no appeal . Ill never waste my time on another one and if i had realized atlas was one i would of not bothered with it, but like most was just to desperate for a decent game to play so gave it a chance plus it was sold as an mmo but is just a big cash grab survival game.
@bonzoso21, it's cool if people like McDonalds. I really could not care any less. What I do care about is when McDonalds is the only restaurant left. I want my steakhouse or Chinese buffet, along with McDonalds as a choice
[edit] On Topic: Great post, OP. I've always felt that "big business" (read shareholders) has no place in hobby industries. ANY of them
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
@bonzoso21, it's cool if people like McDonalds. I really could not care any less. What I do care about is when McDonalds is the only restaurant left. I want my steakhouse or Chinese buffet, along with McDonalds as a choice
[edit] On Topic: Great post, OP. I've always felt that "big business" (read shareholders) has no place in hobby industries. ANY of them
McDonalds won't ever be the only restaurant left... but I hope you like Taco Bell because they win the Franchise Wars
At some point in this discussion, I'd love to see someone stop talking about how shareholders need to butt out and start talking about how exactly you get big budget games without big businesses that have big market caps to bankroll their development and enforce their completion and launch.
Because let's not kid ourselves that anybody here who wants so badly to return to the good ol' days is going to be happy with a game that has the same small development teams that were viable back then.
Didn't bother to read it. The only reason games apparently suck to you and everyone else (myself included) is because we've become disgruntled old farts. Young kids enjoy today's games, and when they get old they'll repeat the same disgruntled rose-colored glasses whining that you guys do.
At some point in this discussion, I'd love to see someone stop talking about how shareholders need to butt out and start talking about how exactly you get big budget games without big businesses that have big market caps to bankroll their development and enforce their completion and launch.
Because let's not kid ourselves that anybody here who wants so badly to return to the good ol' days is going to be happy with a game that has the same small development teams that were viable back then.
But Indie do just that, however I agree for AAA we need investors.
At some point in this discussion, I'd love to see someone stop talking about how shareholders need to butt out and start talking about how exactly you get big budget games without big businesses that have big market caps to bankroll their development and enforce their completion and launch.
Because let's not kid ourselves that anybody here who wants so badly to return to the good ol' days is going to be happy with a game that has the same small development teams that were viable back then.
EQ, UO, even City of Heroes when they started (Cryptic Studios) did so. Where there is a will, there is a way. Triple A has no will.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
@bonzoso21, it's cool if people like McDonalds. I really could not care any less. What I do care about is when McDonalds is the only restaurant left. I want my steakhouse or Chinese buffet, along with McDonalds as a choice
[edit] On Topic: Great post, OP. I've always felt that "big business" (read shareholders) has no place in hobby industries. ANY of them
McDonalds won't ever be the only restaurant left... but I hope you like Taco Bell because they win the Franchise Wars
Taco Bell is not bad. But like any food, eating only "it" each day, everyday, gets old fast
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Why would developer spend the time to make a MMO when people like me would toss them money for making a game with barely anything.
LOLZ
"We" are here because of lil kids belive everything what devs/publisher say. Example : wtf "AAA" even means, i keep hearing it everywhere, dont remember anyone said that even 7 years ago.
And ofcourse those paid "professional" reviewers. (RESIDENT EVIL 2. "Game critics awards best of E3 2018. Winner :best of show." What kind of reward is that? What does it even mean? Its 2019 now.)
Look at people on twitch/YT. Kids throw em money so now they are famous and rich. But what they actually did? Nothing. Same with your beloved game companies, they just have insane amount of naive kids carrying em on their shoulders.
Its all mythical pirates, blame them for everything... Its so funny. Piracy doesnt exist! Its should be clear for every mmo player.
Look at Balizzard and D3 - wasnt pirated. Failed at the start. No content, even f2p games have more content. Died. Competition, leaderboards? Nobody cares, alot of people, even streamers used bots. But even dead game was released on consoles, even on switch. Thats big money. What they did to their fans after that? Continue spitting. Hey, slaves...you like it before, why you complaining now all of a sudden?
F76. Another example. No mythical pirates to blame...so blame the players. How dare they complain after they bought our slave collar...amazing game?!
TESO. Was sub only..failed. B2p with sub option now. Has loot boxes... And house for 12k+ crowns.
Yesterday was maintenace they broke something so EU server got 4 (i think) extra hours. But even after than game wasnt fixed..so they did maintenance again.
And that LGBT BS. They use to add Black people to the game to get attention. So thats not that good now?
Its all PR...its so weak, so disgusting. How those transgenders belive them that devs do that for their support? Look what they did with Overwatch. Fanservice everywhere. They just used em like politicians before elections.
And what about the game? Its just another contentless stupid competitive time killer for lil kids. Isnt it Dead or alive alike?
Theres no quality. But quantity oriented small corporations.
P.S. Quality? Ride to Hell: Retribution. YEAH!
P.S. https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/akyfip/saturn_in_germany_is_so_desperately_trying_get/
P.S.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455919/cheap-t-shirt-only-83-million-euro
P.S.https://steamcommunity.com/games/251570/announcements/detail/1721965507352652674
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Entertainment = a luxury
So it isnt a necessity, the issue is when people do this lame crap with necessitieis.
My issues with MMO sucking is 99% lack of innovation. The game is the same as always and the same it has been in 2 decades basically.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I only read on here I don't have the time to watch people talk.
Agree with much of what the OP has said, what he missed was this occurred as big business moved into the newly lucrative world of gaming. Where do the top executives go? Where the most money is made, this situation only really started in the 80/90's before then it was expected that the top guys had experience in the industry they where running. Now they go where the money is and over the last ten years gaming has moved into the really big league.
That's why the last CEO of EA had a career in Haagen-Dazs and a chemical company before joining EA with no experience of the gaming world. Gaming was always lucrative but once you move into the big league the rules change and the loot boxes etc come in.
The only other thing is the OP downplays other factors, there are not two main ones, they all form part of the "cockuptail" that got us to this point.
OK I have to ask is @Gdemami using a bot? he got that lol in as I was editing my post.
From:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-25/video-game-sales-set-to-reverse
Would like to add a few things about the market in general.
This mostly pertains to the overall DOW and Mutual funds, but also individual stocks. When a company delivers a new product they search for high rolling investors, but the majority are common people simply looking to make some money...... Executives have the ability to reach in and take what ever they want, this is called stock options, much like Casino management taking from gamblers. The thing is, more profit, more take.
To achieve this from both the high rollers and the common people they need to develop trust.
Their was talk here about investors not understanding THIS market. Understanding or not, Video Games are not a trustworthy investment because of shady business practices based on past history. This includes Triple A.
Companies need to rebuild trust in an overall tainted market !!!
**mmorpg's are in the toilet with no chance of recovery !!! **
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But I agree with the cocktail. I guess I was trying to get to the structural source that kind of spawns it all.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
[edit]
On Topic: Great post, OP. I've always felt that "big business" (read shareholders) has no place in hobby industries. ANY of them
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Because let's not kid ourselves that anybody here who wants so badly to return to the good ol' days is going to be happy with a game that has the same small development teams that were viable back then.
Mend and Defend
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR