The real issue are ridiculously inflated C level salaries there is no logic that can explain how 1 persons value is 200 times greater than a senior developer making $150K a year.
You can hire 200 senior developers vs 1 C level - hello????
The issue is obvious
The logic is easy.
1) CEO has the potential to make your company hundreds of millions of dollars and if you get the right one, they can do even more. You get the best CEO and you're making billions.
2) The senior developer is replaceable. You get the best senior developer and they basically do what? Reduce the amount of bugs a DLC will have? You hire any ole developer and their main contribution is basically + or - bugs. It's probably more sophisticated than that as i'm not a programmer.
See, logic is easy. 2018 net income +300 million more than the year before. You think a developer influences that bottom line or the overall direction of the company.
I'll wait for your rebuttal.
Cryomatrix
The logic doesn't hold up to scrutiny, though. You've not been able to provide any causative evidence that could justify the degree to which CEOs are overpaid as a ratio to the other employees.
There was no mistake nor bad judgement made. The lay-offs have nothing to do with company actual profits, CEO bonus or w/e - they are simply not needed/they are not qualified for the direction company is now taking.
Every time we have crossed this kind of discussion, you have proven that you really have no idea what you are talking about.. this time.. is no different.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Business is one that profit is what most are about. This seems like a failure unless it can become huge enough to have big news stories done about it where it can appear to be a black eye. It has to show how he was happy with the profits and the employees were not important. That is why US made items have moved to Mexico or overseas from US. when paying 10% or less what a US worker cost then why have production in US?
You can hire 200 senior developers vs 1 C level - hello????
...200 senior developers can make you a product, but they are pretty useless when you can't pay for their wages because they are not who make the money.
Holy shit, you've reached a new level of WTF.
Yes, that CEO that can't make you a product, THAT'S who should receive all the credit for profits from product sales!
Call me a hopeless optimist but it will change inevitably as millennials refuse to work for traditional businesses period.
The times they are a changing.
LOLWUT?? I think you are confused sir. What is going to happen is millennials are going to be in for a shock when they find out the world doesnt hand out 10th place ribbons because mommy stomped her feet until she got one for her special little joey who was last. Millennial is the "nice word" for spoiled lazy entitled kids who think they are the grease that makes the world go round because mommy spent every waking moment assuring them they are the most special person EVAR!
Change is a coming you are correct all of these white millennial are being replaced by foreigners who actually are motivated and hungry to work for a better life, these millennial will spend the rest of their lives living off their hard working parents who over spoiled them until their parents money is all gone, then they will look around and see they have all been replaced by imported foreign labor and they are inconsequential and forgotten. All of the people they fought for with their social justice will give no craps about them either as they thanklessly move on with their great new lives that you handed over without a fight. I mean my god you millennials actually refer to "streaming games" as a job and a tough demanding job at that lol.
Call me a hopeless optimist but it will change inevitably as millennials refuse to work for traditional businesses period.
The times they are a changing.
LOLWUT?? I think you are confused sir. What is going to happen is millennials are going to be in for a shock when they find out the world doesnt hand out 10th place ribbons because mommy stomped her feet until she got one for her special little joey who was last. Millennial is the "nice word" for spoiled lazy entitled kids who think they are the grease that makes the world go round because mommy spent every waking moment assuring them they are the most special person EVAR!
Change is a coming you are correct all of these white millennial are being replaced by foreigners who actually are motivated and hungry to work for a better life, these millennial will spend the rest of their lives living off their hard working parents who over spoiled them until their parents money is all gone, then they will look around and see they have all been replaced by imported foreign labor and they are inconsequential and forgotten. All of the people they fought for with their social justice will give no craps about them either as they thanklessly move on with their great new lives that you handed over without a fight.
The irony that it is these Millennials that want to make open borders so these motivated foreigners can come in and take their jobs.. just makes that rude awakening that much better... don't it?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Call me a hopeless optimist but it will change inevitably as millennials refuse to work for traditional businesses period.
The times they are a changing.
It's more like traditional businesses prefer to higher "more senior" members of the work force now days because millennials as a whole don't know what work ethic is or fail grasp the concept that when we tell a person that their working hours are 9am to 6pm with a one hour lunch, those times are not optional, but a requirement for the job. Just say'n.
More senior workforce will retire, then who are they gonna hire?
Like I said - the world is in for a rude awakening
Uhm they will do what they are doing right now, import foreign labor lol. Millennials are in for the rude awakening not the world. Reality check you are the REAL minority in the world you been lied to every day when you hear about "minorities" Make no mistake the world will go on without you contrary to what your momma told you about being the most special child ever, your not. a few million millennials....world population reaching 8 billion....and you still you matter? You have been betrayed by everything you know parents, education system, own government, you dont even see the train coming down the tracks as you cry about "some rich ceo making 30 million while 800 people lost their job" its like peeing in the ocean meanwhile you happily log onto facebook, twitter, amazon and use google where the powers are earning billions and doing everything possible to ensure they can replace "you" with cheap foreign labor or automation lol.
Reality check if those 800 jobs were important to the company then its performance will deteriorate, if they were deadspace with little productivity they will not be missed. I'll wager its the later, and that is why that CEO makes 30 million and me and you don't. Good workers are the utmost important asset to most companies I can assure you they didnt cut off their best and brightest performers.
@mmrv@Ungood You guys are skating close to the "politics" line which is frowned upon around here. Let's keep it to the topic without hinting around at politics. Thanks.
Call me a hopeless optimist but it will change inevitably as millennials refuse to work for traditional businesses period.
The times they are a changing.
LOLWUT?? I think you are confused sir. What is going to happen is millennials are going to be in for a shock when they find out the world doesnt hand out 10th place ribbons because mommy stomped her feet until she got one for her special little joey who was last. Millennial is the "nice word" for spoiled lazy entitled kids who think they are the grease that makes the world go round because mommy spent every waking moment assuring them they are the most special person EVAR!
Change is a coming you are correct all of these white millennial are being replaced by foreigners who actually are motivated and hungry to work for a better life, these millennial will spend the rest of their lives living off their hard working parents who over spoiled them until their parents money is all gone, then they will look around and see they have all been replaced by imported foreign labor and they are inconsequential and forgotten. All of the people they fought for with their social justice will give no craps about them either as they thanklessly move on with their great new lives that you handed over without a fight. I mean my god you millennials actually refer to "streaming games" as a job and a tough demanding job at that lol.
Many millennials are under no illusions our parents generation fucked the economy so hard we're the first generation in a while to be behind where our parents were at our age, all other things being equal. We're also aware of how our parents generation gave us completely shit advice about "go to college or you'll flip burgers all your life!" all the while college was getting more expensive while the value of a degree was nose-diving. Why do you think so many reject the holy grail of capitalism so readily? Why do you think we so readily reject the politics and ideologies of our parents?
And yet, the dumbass hate train on the generation persists. GG.
Funny thing is that guy making 30 Million a year if he got cut to 15 Million a year he would feel like he lost everything and his life is over. What would a single or family man or women need 30 million a year for? honestly. People that make 150k to 200k a year are living nice indeed and that's not even near 30 Million. Its overkill by a big margin money that could be split between other workers so they to can live there lives Instead of just giving them the boot. Now if it was 30 million a year for business total that had to pay expenses, employees and other things then yea but if that's like take home pay that they actually pocket its just crazy.
@mmrv@Ungood You guys are skating close to the "politics" line which is frowned upon around here. Let's keep it to the topic without hinting around at politics. Thanks.
Totally agree.. that was skating the political line.. You're right.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Funny thing is that guy making 30 Million a year if he got cut to 15 Million a year he would feel like he lost everything and his life is over. What would a single or family man or women need 30 million a year for? honestly. People that make 150k to 200k a year are living nice indeed and that's not even near 30 Million. Its overkill by a big margin money that could be split between other workers so they to can live there lives Instead of just giving them the boot. Now if it was 30 million a year for business total that had to pay expenses, employees and other things then yea but if that's like take home pay that they actually pocket its just crazy.
Because even being a millionaire is being part of a caste system. I read an article about a women who sold her web site and became a millionaire. She thought she had made it until she was told that having three million was low on the millionaire scale. So people who make 30 million are probably looked down on upon by people who make 100 million, who are looked down upon by people who make billions who are looked down upon because it's new money and not old money that's been in the family for many hundreds of years. It's a hamster wheel and for some it's just a pinball game to see who has high score and for how long.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Holy crap. What? You shouldn't be on edge 24/7 about whether or not you get to keep your job. Even as an at will employee, you should have some semblance of being treated fairly at work. How would you feel if tomorrow you walked into work and someone fired you on the spot. Would you be on a forum talking about how they are perfectly within their right to do that? Or would you be pissed. I'm guessing it's the latter.
Actually, Like the man I am, a man that understands how the real world works. There is no woah is me, I would never live my life that.
Thanks though, for further proving my point. And yes, you are 'on edge' 24/7 at any employer you work for. Unless you sign a legal binding contract of some sorts, again you have zero job security.
Go back to school, work in a real job/industry. Just like if I open a business, I also have the right to reject sales/services to people. It may not be the right thing to do, or best business practice, but still can and does happen. Customers, employees, etc are not as entitled as everyone thinks.
I am confused the article says 800 employees were fired. Is that misprint as being "fired" and being "laid off" are actually different. It is a bit more difficult to get unemployment if one is fired rather than just laid off as you have to prove it wasn't your fault you were fired.
Having a job is not a right. If you were laid off or fired in this round, then you were not valuable enough to the company to keep around. Period. Maybe its because your degree is in non-binary-crosstransdimensional-underwater-basket-weaving or maybe its because the position you held was contingent on that part of the company performing and it didn't.
Either way, the value for your labor didn't exist any longer and your services were no longer needed.
So you can whine and bitch about it, or you can suck it up and find another job, but trying to get the CEO fired because he's doing his job is just infantile.
Bobby Kotick: "While we have made record profits, we need to rethink the way we make games. But rather than let our dedicated and amazing staff go, I am voluntarily cutting my personal salary in half to keep our people employed because they are what makes ATVI great."
He would STILL make $15,000,000, more than he could spend in a lifetime (added to a doubtless huge savings in the bank) but would come out looking like the "good guy" for the gesture. He'd still be making grotesque amounts of money but would seem as if he were altruistically helping out the grunts.
You and i might think its a grotesque amount of money but people like him don't compare themselves with people like us and what we earn. They look at people like Jeff Bezos and think they are being underpaid.
The only people the CEO and board answer to are the investors. Investors care only about profits for the most part. Only once the record profits stop will investors start calling for their heads but in the meantime Kotick and co and run the company into the ground while filling their own pockets.
It is nice to discuss differing opinions with you.
- I think that CEO's get paid on their potential to affect the company. Yes, the direction by which they take the company in, can either lead to financial boon or bankruptcy. I believe they get paid for their potential and what is at stake. The decision of how to prepare your company for the changing market, what game to make, where to go, has a much greater influence than any other employee.
- Should it be 500x that of the median employee? I guess it depends on the revenue of a company. If you have a company with revenues topping 10 billion and you have like 50,000 workers, well, for sure the ratio is going to be high. Because most of those workers are probably going to be on the lower scale and with 10 billion revenue . . .
If you have a CEO with revenues of 50 million and like 100 workers in a very high tech field, then the ratio probably won't be so high.
- Put it this way, in the NFL in the US, Roger Goodell, basically the CEO/commissioner, makes 47 millionish a year. The revenue of the NFL is 13-15 billionish. His goal is to make the NFL the most money possible, hence they bullshit about the concussion issue, they try to change the game to fit the dynamic crowd. Hell, they stopped showing national anthem as it was probably the most profit maximizing decision they could have made. His decisions can make the NFL contract to 10 billion revenue or reach 20 billion revenue. You think any one position player in the NFL has even close to that much influence? The only reason his CEO to employee ratio isn't absurd is that the NFL has 2,000 important and highly paid employees (the players).
Also, the NFL owners, 32 multibillionaires who are all successful and probably a wee bit intelligent voted on his salary. You think these 32 owners are stupid for paying a CEO/commissioner that much? Or do you think they see the value in what a CEO/commissioner can do?
The CEO shaving 15 million off of his salary will keep 800 employees on the dole for probably a couple months if that. Hence, it would solve nothing. It is altruistic but in the grand scheme of things, not overly helpful. I would guess the total severance package is more than 15 million. So he kind of doesn't have to.
150k-200k is a lot of money in some areas and a bit above average in other areas. I live in California, it is expensive, i get nickled and dimed for everything. I do live a decently nice life style but I do feel economically strapped frequently but that's probably because of my wife . . . if I was single, than 150k would be way be rich.
I do wonder if DMKano blocked me for some reason. He never responds to things I post.
@anyone who blames stuff on millennials: - It's a silly premise. Who raised them? Would older people be any different if they grew up in the internet age and social media era? I have a feeling humans have always been the same, the only difference now, is there's video/media that reports it all.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Many millennials are under no illusions our parents generation fucked the economy so hard we're the first generation in a while to be behind where our parents were at our age, all other things being equal. We're also aware of how our parents generation gave us completely shit advice about "go to college or you'll flip burgers all your life!" all the while college was getting more expensive while the value of a degree was nose-diving. Why do you think so many reject the holy grail of capitalism so readily? Why do you think we so readily reject the politics and ideologies of our parents?
And yet, the dumbass hate train on the generation persists. GG.
Once you stop blaming other people for "F'ing" every thing up for you, your generation, or anyone else, things will work out for you. Dumb ass hate train? I have family, friends, co-workers, etc... All from that generation that have BS degrees, things that do not even matter. But that's fine, I will keep working my low paying thankless job, living in a home I OWN, riding a motorcycle, Owning multiple cars, etc... Oh and by the way, yeah I guess I'll have to pay some benefits to support that generation as well.
But guess what, I will be that guy flipping you off at Walmart parking lot while I brarp brarp that throttle on my motorcycle. As you are still cursing to yourself about me being a white privileged skin head m'f'r.
Sure, CEOs make an exorbitant amount, but if one would take their pay and spread it equitably across all accounts payable in a company, it amounts to pennies on the dollar, so the argument about the CEO's pay is just a virtue signal.
This is not True, CEO's in America make near to 500 times what their employees make. Let me put that in perspective for you. Average employee in a Company like Blizzard, is around 60 - 100K a year.
That means that the CEO is making roughly 40 Million Annual Salary, if they were to be making, say, what a comparable CEO in England would make (in England, CEO make 20 - 25 times what their employees make) which means they would be making 2 million a year.
Now if you scoff at that, thinking that would not be anywhere near enough, keep in mind the median income in America is around 40 - 60K.. if 40 times our median income in this country, is not enough to live a rich life, there is something very.. very.. wrong with this country.
Equally so, if they took a comparable paycheck to what other Capitalist countries make, (20 - 25 times) they would be able to keep on an additional, 475 employees... that does not look like pennies on the dollar if you ask me.
Glad you pointed that out. Math is truth, and has a powerful edge. Although, in my experience, it won't protect you from spurious LOLs from people who seem to argue without reading (and certainly not comprehending).
Bottom line, US companies have a greater disparity between employee and executive salaries. For good, bad or indifferent.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
@Cryomatrix Why would the ratio change, though? That implies that the rest of the company contributes relatively less the more the company makes, but there still lacks a lot of causative evidence of why that would be true. Is there strong evidence for the idea that the CEO is increasingly solely responsible the more the company makes?
Why not base it on directly attributable action? Say the CEO clearly plays a large role in a profitable acquisition; I get it, a senior developer didn't contribute to that. But if a quality product is developed, leading to huge revenue by product sales... What makes that the sole purview of the CEO? In fact, if it's the product's individual quality that drove the sales, seems to me the lower level workers that were the hands on with said product is much more responsible, collectively, than the CEO who merely watched that team work.
America's infatuation with ridiculous CEO salaries is one of the major issues with it's economy.
where you can have 300 people making 100k a year, you instead have 1 guy (certainly not doing the work of 300) making 30mil and firing 800 local workers and then re-hiring people in Korea for a 10th of the price. that's what CEOs do. that's how you lose your good paying jobs.
i understand paying a CEO twice or 3 times a workers salary, but 200 or 300 times, or even more....that's just complete lunacy. even worse is when a company fails to make money and CEOs still get paid their ridiculous salaries.
the President of the united States make 400k a year for running the whole country. and these guys run just one or a hand full of companies and make 100+ times more......just madness.
Comments
Yes, that CEO that can't make you a product, THAT'S who should receive all the credit for profits from product sales!
Shit's weak.
LOLWUT?? I think you are confused sir. What is going to happen is millennials are going to be in for a shock when they find out the world doesnt hand out 10th place ribbons because mommy stomped her feet until she got one for her special little joey who was last. Millennial is the "nice word" for spoiled lazy entitled kids who think they are the grease that makes the world go round because mommy spent every waking moment assuring them they are the most special person EVAR!
Change is a coming you are correct all of these white millennial are being replaced by foreigners who actually are motivated and hungry to work for a better life, these millennial will spend the rest of their lives living off their hard working parents who over spoiled them until their parents money is all gone, then they will look around and see they have all been replaced by imported foreign labor and they are inconsequential and forgotten. All of the people they fought for with their social justice will give no craps about them either as they thanklessly move on with their great new lives that you handed over without a fight. I mean my god you millennials actually refer to "streaming games" as a job and a tough demanding job at that lol.
Uhm they will do what they are doing right now, import foreign labor lol. Millennials are in for the rude awakening not the world. Reality check you are the REAL minority in the world you been lied to every day when you hear about "minorities" Make no mistake the world will go on without you contrary to what your momma told you about being the most special child ever, your not. a few million millennials....world population reaching 8 billion....and you still you matter? You have been betrayed by everything you know parents, education system, own government, you dont even see the train coming down the tracks as you cry about "some rich ceo making 30 million while 800 people lost their job" its like peeing in the ocean meanwhile you happily log onto facebook, twitter, amazon and use google where the powers are earning billions and doing everything possible to ensure they can replace "you" with cheap foreign labor or automation lol.
Reality check if those 800 jobs were important to the company then its performance will deteriorate, if they were deadspace with little productivity they will not be missed. I'll wager its the later, and that is why that CEO makes 30 million and me and you don't. Good workers are the utmost important asset to most companies I can assure you they didnt cut off their best and brightest performers.
You guys are skating close to the "politics" line which is frowned upon around here. Let's keep it to the topic without hinting around at politics. Thanks.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And yet, the dumbass hate train on the generation persists. GG.
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Having a job is not a right. If you were laid off or fired in this round, then you were not valuable enough to the company to keep around. Period. Maybe its because your degree is in non-binary-crosstransdimensional-underwater-basket-weaving or maybe its because the position you held was contingent on that part of the company performing and it didn't.
Either way, the value for your labor didn't exist any longer and your services were no longer needed.
So you can whine and bitch about it, or you can suck it up and find another job, but trying to get the CEO fired because he's doing his job is just infantile.
But losing my job hurts!
Yes, losing a job is painful. That's life.
You and i might think its a grotesque amount of money but people like him don't compare themselves with people like us and what we earn. They look at people like Jeff Bezos and think they are being underpaid.
The only people the CEO and board answer to are the investors. Investors care only about profits for the most part. Only once the record profits stop will investors start calling for their heads but in the meantime Kotick and co and run the company into the ground while filling their own pockets.
It is nice to discuss differing opinions with you.
- I think that CEO's get paid on their potential to affect the company. Yes, the direction by which they take the company in, can either lead to financial boon or bankruptcy. I believe they get paid for their potential and what is at stake. The decision of how to prepare your company for the changing market, what game to make, where to go, has a much greater influence than any other employee.
- Should it be 500x that of the median employee? I guess it depends on the revenue of a company. If you have a company with revenues topping 10 billion and you have like 50,000 workers, well, for sure the ratio is going to be high. Because most of those workers are probably going to be on the lower scale and with 10 billion revenue . . .
If you have a CEO with revenues of 50 million and like 100 workers in a very high tech field, then the ratio probably won't be so high.
- Put it this way, in the NFL in the US, Roger Goodell, basically the CEO/commissioner, makes 47 millionish a year. The revenue of the NFL is 13-15 billionish. His goal is to make the NFL the most money possible, hence they bullshit about the concussion issue, they try to change the game to fit the dynamic crowd. Hell, they stopped showing national anthem as it was probably the most profit maximizing decision they could have made. His decisions can make the NFL contract to 10 billion revenue or reach 20 billion revenue. You think any one position player in the NFL has even close to that much influence? The only reason his CEO to employee ratio isn't absurd is that the NFL has 2,000 important and highly paid employees (the players).
Also, the NFL owners, 32 multibillionaires who are all successful and probably a wee bit intelligent voted on his salary. You think these 32 owners are stupid for paying a CEO/commissioner that much? Or do you think they see the value in what a CEO/commissioner can do?
@Sovrath
The CEO shaving 15 million off of his salary will keep 800 employees on the dole for probably a couple months if that. Hence, it would solve nothing. It is altruistic but in the grand scheme of things, not overly helpful. I would guess the total severance package is more than 15 million. So he kind of doesn't have to.
@Hellscream
150k-200k is a lot of money in some areas and a bit above average in other areas. I live in California, it is expensive, i get nickled and dimed for everything. I do live a decently nice life style but I do feel economically strapped frequently but that's probably because of my wife . . . if I was single, than 150k would be way be rich.
@SBFord
I do wonder if DMKano blocked me for some reason. He never responds to things I post.
@anyone who blames stuff on millennials:
- It's a silly premise. Who raised them? Would older people be any different if they grew up in the internet age and social media era? I have a feeling humans have always been the same, the only difference now, is there's video/media that reports it all.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Why not base it on directly attributable action? Say the CEO clearly plays a large role in a profitable acquisition; I get it, a senior developer didn't contribute to that. But if a quality product is developed, leading to huge revenue by product sales... What makes that the sole purview of the CEO? In fact, if it's the product's individual quality that drove the sales, seems to me the lower level workers that were the hands on with said product is much more responsible, collectively, than the CEO who merely watched that team work.
where you can have 300 people making 100k a year, you instead have 1 guy (certainly not doing the work of 300) making 30mil and firing 800 local workers and then re-hiring people in Korea for a 10th of the price. that's what CEOs do. that's how you lose your good paying jobs.
i understand paying a CEO twice or 3 times a workers salary, but 200 or 300 times, or even more....that's just complete lunacy. even worse is when a company fails to make money and CEOs still get paid their ridiculous salaries.
the President of the united States make 400k a year for running the whole country. and these guys run just one or a hand full of companies and make 100+ times more......just madness.