3 Faction PvP

jusomdude

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

ChildoftheShadows

jusomdude said:

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

2 tends to become lop sided, one gettinglarger than the other. Three at least gives the chance that two smaller sides can team against the largest. That’s one reason. Also just the fact there are more options will spread people out more. 

Wizardry

jusomdude said:

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

I would not play a faction pvp game unless a very minimum of at least 10,but preferably 20+.

To me a 1-2 or a 3 faction pvp game is senseless,what is the point,if i wanted two sides i'd just play a real sport of Football or hockey but even those sports have the common sense that just TWO teams would not last more than a week so they form LEAGUES.

I bet you ask any sport minded person if they had to play the exact same team every game if they would be extremely bored and they would say omg yes.This stems to all forms of competition,nobody wants to play the same person over and over and over.Well same goes for faction,the same 2 factions over and over and over..zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Just one simply obvious reason,you could have more than 1-1 at the same time,so you have to be very careful and god forbid THINK a bit because there might just be another faction waiting in the trees to pounce on a weakened faction,there might be 3/4/5 other factions nearby ready to disrupt yoru attack,so there would be ever danger,ever RISk so many CLAIM they are in it for.

Mendel

ChildoftheShadows said:

jusomdude said:

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

2 tends to become lop sided, one gettinglarger than the other. Three at least gives the chance that two smaller sides can team against the largest. That’s one reason. Also just the fact there are more options will spread people out more. 

I'd like to see 5 sides.  Even the 3 sided realms of DAoC got a bit wonky on some servers.

Lokero

ChildoftheShadows said:

jusomdude said:

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

2 tends to become lop sided, one gettinglarger than the other. Three at least gives the chance that two smaller sides can team against the largest. That’s one reason. Also just the fact there are more options will spread people out more. 

It's better odds than 2, but sadly, usually you still end up with a heavily lopsided war.

Often, the #3 faction becomes pretty weak and powerless and doesn't really bring much to the table as people jump ship and move to a stronger one.

So, a lot of times you end up with the same lopsided 2 team battle and the third being some kind of little guerilla faction.

Some games have better results than others.  It really depends on the setup.  But, it seems like you generally end up with that third faction being way behind the other two.

For example, vastly different factions can help spread people out.  Such as the way games like CU are having different classes/cultures/lore/races for each faction.  You'll still end up with varying faction strengths, but it helps bridge the gap.

Like Mendel said, I just don't think 3 is the magic number these games need.  But, the more factions you have, the more you spread out the playerbase, which hurts the overall population.  Spreading out the population over more factions can have a horrible impact on games when the population isn't massive.

Some 3-faction games to study:  Planetside, DAoC, Pirates of the Burning Sea, GW2, and so on...

ChildoftheShadows

Lokero said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

jusomdude said:

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

2 tends to become lop sided, one gettinglarger than the other. Three at least gives the chance that two smaller sides can team against the largest. That’s one reason. Also just the fact there are more options will spread people out more. 

It's better odds than 2, but sadly, usually you still end up with a heavily lopsided war.

Often, the #3 faction becomes pretty weak and powerless and doesn't really bring much to the table as people jump ship and move to a stronger one.

So, a lot of times you end up with the same lopsided 2 team battle and the third being some kind of little guerilla faction.

Some games have better results than others.  It really depends on the setup.  But, it seems like you generally end up with that third faction being way behind the other two.

For example, vastly different factions can help spread people out.  Such as the way games like CU are having different classes/cultures/lore/races for each faction.  You'll still end up with varying faction strengths, but it helps bridge the gap.

Like Mendel said, I just don't think 3 is the magic number these games need.  But, the more factions you have, the more you spread out the playerbase, which hurts the overall population.  Spreading out the population over more factions can have a horrible impact on games when the population isn't massive.

Some 3-faction games to study:  Planetside, DAoC, Pirates of the Burning Sea, GW2, and so on...

In reality there isn't a magical number that can make it even you'll always end up with someone dwindling. You can look at games that avoided hard coded factions all together and allowed players to create their own, clans and corporations in Darkfall and Eve. There are effectively unlimited numbers of "factions" in those scenarios and still some go nowhere while others dominate the game.

I think the best that can be done is to not do too little, which we know 2 is.

FlyByKnight

From a PVP standpoint there  are no real benefits it's all an illusion of a "fix" to a problem developers don't know what to do about.

"What do we do when one side controls a server?" -Developers

"What do we do about our lowest common denominator, self-absorbed, below-average but still wants to be the best player base" -The Real Question

I stand by my POV that Art Craft has come the closest to a solution that might chip away at the real issue. It remains to be seen if they pull it off.

The sooner developers start understanding that their player base is not made up of honorable/decent sportsmen (when in-game I mean), the better. People are going to cheat, join the winning side, and only fight when they see number advantages. They do not seek balance. It is what it is.

Anybody who has played any OWPVP games has seen interactions at every level, from 1v1 to GvG to RvR. It's all the same. It is the developers job to create game play that rewards skills, in-game goal accomplishment, and gives diminishing returns to mob mentality .

Tossing in a 3rd faction ain't gonna do anything if the game play doesn't acknowledge the above.

Vermillion_Raventhal

I think it would be interesting to see faction systems that change periodically pitting allies and placing enemies on the same team.  

ChildoftheShadows

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think it would be interesting to see faction systems that change periodically pitting allies and placing enemies on the same team.  

Without players having a choice. Whenever they do that’s when things get out of balance. Hmm. Would be a challenge to design. 

Vermillion_Raventhal

ChildoftheShadows said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think it would be interesting to see faction systems that change periodically pitting allies and placing enemies on the same team.  

Without players having a choice. Whenever they do that’s when things get out of balance. Hmm. Would be a challenge to design. 

I mean say there are 9 races that form 3 faction for a simple example.  Each faction has a home territory.  Periodically those alliances switch.  Doesn't have to be often but just enough to keep things interesting.   

ChildoftheShadows

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think it would be interesting to see faction systems that change periodically pitting allies and placing enemies on the same team.  

Without players having a choice. Whenever they do that’s when things get out of balance. Hmm. Would be a challenge to design. 

I mean say there are 9 races that form 3 faction for a simple example.  Each faction has a home territory.  Periodically those alliances switch.  Doesn't have to be often but just enough to keep things interesting.   

Just food for thought. You and I are friends, we pick our races so we can play together but they are not the same only the same faction.  One day it switches and we are no longer allies. 

Vermillion_Raventhal

ChildoftheShadows said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think it would be interesting to see faction systems that change periodically pitting allies and placing enemies on the same team.  

Without players having a choice. Whenever they do that’s when things get out of balance. Hmm. Would be a challenge to design. 

I mean say there are 9 races that form 3 faction for a simple example.  Each faction has a home territory.  Periodically those alliances switch.  Doesn't have to be often but just enough to keep things interesting.   

Just food for thought. You and I are friends, we pick our races so we can play together but they are not the same only the same faction.  One day it switches and we are no longer allies. 

Then pick the same race. I think it would be interesting to work with people you been warring with and fighting former allies.  Think it would breed some racial pride.  

4507

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think it would be interesting to see faction systems that change periodically pitting allies and placing enemies on the same team.  

Indeed, I've always thought an MMO based on Sid Meier's Pirates could work very well, where you choose from Spain, England, France, or the Netherlands for your faction, and have frequent peace treaties and declarations of war changing which factions are fighting and which ones are allies. The system deciding faction relations could also be designed to auto-balance the playing field by making a particularly strong faction fight all the others at once, or giving a faction nearing destruction a week of total peace to rebuild.

Hatefull

I believe your best chance of achieving something approaching balance with an odd numbers of factions.

Planetside is a good example. The factions go through a shift as the day progresses and you will see on faction slowly start to outnumber the others. What they have done to try to achieve a better balance is to introduce a 4th faction or better put a "floater faction. This faction is comprised of robots, (played by real players, not AI bots) that when you sign in, whichever faction is lowest you get assigned to.

I am not sure if this has made it to live yet, but on paper, it sounds good.

iixviiiix

I like to have 3 factions ruled by GMs who can buff his nation when it in pinch , but decision of action by elder council of players

No same faction PVP

alkarionlog

aion did the 3 factions 2 players the 3rd was the npcs, in the paper would be nice, if a faction was too powerfull the npcs would go after then and try to even things out, it didn't worked that way unfortunally, I had played with 3 factions baing players, its also troublesome, in theory same thing 2 weaker go against the stronger, but remember people are dumb most of time or don't want to have the hassle to go agaisnt the strongest one, so they join with the stronger to bash the weakest for crumbles just to get by

Aika had a 5 factions to choose from, it was also crunky as hell since sometimes 3 factions would just join up and these 3 was the strongest in the server

in the end no faction would be better drama will always feed people of and sometimes strong guilds ego tend to break then in smaller ones

Morgenes83

Mendel said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

jusomdude said:

I'm wondering.. what are the benefits of 3 faction PvP vs 2... Why would I want 3 faction instead of 2? Just a matter of preference, or what?

2 tends to become lop sided, one gettinglarger than the other. Three at least gives the chance that two smaller sides can team against the largest. That’s one reason. Also just the fact there are more options will spread people out more. 

I'd like to see 5 sides.  Even the 3 sided realms of DAoC got a bit wonky on some servers.

My experience is that the 2nd often also attacks the third to stay at his position instead of both joining forces against the 1st.

This is mostly because of the 1st getting most of his "points" at off-times and not being that much of a threat at peak time.

5 Factions would be more interesting as it is harder to compete against 4 factions in off times.

Yes it is the same problem if 3 factions join forces, but this is always the case. Even with no faction you will have big alliances being the strongest and dominating.
So you could say "the more the better"
But this is also not the case as this raises the need to socialize, which is not as popular as the easy life of joining a faction zerg and fight.

sunnyortego

I think Aika tried 5 factions, but two of them were usually tiny.

Maurgrim

3 faction are always great to balance things out, if one faction get way to strong the other two can work together to balance things out.

In 2 faction games there are always one faction who gets overpowered, such as well know pvp guilds join one faction tipping over the balance then regular joes who only do part time pvp check beforehand what side to pick so they know what side have the most active pvp guild and pick that one.