I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.
Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"
Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.
I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.
If the idea is to have a "world" where there are a lot of players then their must be an obscene amount of content or goals that take a while. Of the games you are thinking of, is there one (or more) that you would think of playing for months on end?
Because otherwise players will run through the content in the initial rush then leave, the world will be empty for those who join late, then after a year another bit of content and then a repeat of players playing for a bit then leaving.
I think the original idea of an mmorpg was for it to be a rich inhabited world.
I think you are possibly thinking of games where you might do it for a few weeks then move on?
You can have time consuming goals that don't require a rat race of quest or the most basic repetitious as we have now. Will there some grind yes. Does the game have to.be based around grinds? No.
There just need to be more imagination about what you can do in a MMORPG. Beyond EQ/WoW
I like reading fantasy books. When I finish one I read another. I don't, however, want the author to completely "innovate" and write a Harlequin romance or a spy novel. I want the basic core fantasy elements with some new fresh things.
People have been enjoying fantasy since (at least) Beowulf. Every game should not be a whole new slate.
Yeah but you don't want to read the exact same story with same characters over and over.
The more skills to learn and skillup the merrier. Don't go ruining the whole idea by limiting players to dumb ideas like you can only pick and choose 5.Make the reasoning MAKE SENSE,like you have to go home and change your setup to become a different class and that class cannot utilize certain skills.
Just like a baseball player cannot perform a slapshot with a baseball bat and vice versa,if switching to a baseball player your not hitting home runs with a hockey stick.So certain skills would only follow certain classes.Now if you want to get real cute,utilize th FFXI idea of multi classing,the reasoning is there and gives your character a lot of versatility.
A level should represent something about your character and not just a number.There should NOT be a set linear pattern of do these 1500 quests to get level 90.In those cases then yes they are a simple linear grind instead of adding realism,like learning skills over time,they add crappy linear content ideas and usually not even good content.
I would still ANY day of the year take any grind over a game that just hands me levels for no reason,like walk from point A>B and WHOA level 2!,then go walk over to Chief wooka wooka and WHOA level 3.That kind of crap does exist and those games get the instant dumpster treatment.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Grind a derogatory term so what kind of answer do you expect?
Content, progression and grinding are not necessarily directly related. For example, gathering mats is a chore, may allow for progression but isn't a direct consequence. It may be providing content but not directly although it's giving you something to do so you could play words games with that. In a monetised game dailies and gathering etc can be averted so what does that say about the necessity for grind and how its used to perhaps punish those not paying?
The term grind is all over the place at the moment. I was watching some YouTube video the other day and the guy said 'Once you grind through the story quests...'. How stupid is that? Loads of people think grind is what you do to get to endgame... even if it's proper content you're doing.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.
Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"
Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.
I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.
If the idea is to have a "world" where there are a lot of players then their must be an obscene amount of content or goals that take a while. Of the games you are thinking of, is there one (or more) that you would think of playing for months on end?
Because otherwise players will run through the content in the initial rush then leave, the world will be empty for those who join late, then after a year another bit of content and then a repeat of players playing for a bit then leaving.
I think the original idea of an mmorpg was for it to be a rich inhabited world.
I think you are possibly thinking of games where you might do it for a few weeks then move on?
You can have time consuming goals that don't require a rat race of quest or the most basic repetitious as we have now. Will there some grind yes. Does the game have to.be based around grinds? No.
There just need to be more imagination about what you can do in a MMORPG. Beyond EQ/WoW
ok great, what? Because anything can be considered "a grind" if one does too much of it.
One person in this thread said he wants to get to the fun part. What's that?!?!?! Raiding?
Well, I assume that for him that's fun. If I had to raid as much as, say, World of Warcraft players, I'd quit. Not fun.
Now, I'm not saying that players should grind mobs ad infinitum or quest until their eyes bleed. I am saying that anything can be considered a grind, even "the fun parts" if players don't really like it or if they do it for too long.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A grind is really only a grind, when you have done something enough times that the outcome is predictable.
With that said, regardless if a company built a game that required no grind at all, some players would grind content regardless, for the sole fact that the outcome would be predictable.
Right, wrong, good or bad, it is just the way it is.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.
Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"
Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.
I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.
If the idea is to have a "world" where there are a lot of players then their must be an obscene amount of content or goals that take a while. Of the games you are thinking of, is there one (or more) that you would think of playing for months on end?
Because otherwise players will run through the content in the initial rush then leave, the world will be empty for those who join late, then after a year another bit of content and then a repeat of players playing for a bit then leaving.
I think the original idea of an mmorpg was for it to be a rich inhabited world.
I think you are possibly thinking of games where you might do it for a few weeks then move on?
You can have time consuming goals that don't require a rat race of quest or the most basic repetitious as we have now. Will there some grind yes. Does the game have to.be based around grinds? No.
There just need to be more imagination about what you can do in a MMORPG. Beyond EQ/WoW
ok great, what? Because anything can be considered "a grind" if one does too much of it.
One person in this thread said he wants to get to the fun part. What's that?!?!?! Raiding?
Well, I assume that for him that's fun. If I had to raid as much as, say, World of Warcraft players, I'd quit. Not fun.
Now, I'm not saying that players should grind mobs ad infinitum or quest until their eyes bleed. I am saying that anything can be considered a grind, even "the fun parts" if players don't really like it or if they do it for too long.
To explain that would be a whole other post.
This goes to the point that if you are making a MMORPG that is just surface level of themepark there has to be grind for people to stay playing. There wouldn't much else to do.
It's the big reason why even games with "content" failed to meet their goals. You need to be a big company that can make months worth quest and presentation to keep players going like WoW, ESO and etc.
You would need sandbox activities. You would need activities that are emergent. You have more time based advancement than active based stuff. There are a lot of things that can he done to give you gameplay choice over grinds.
I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.
Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"
Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.
I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.
If the idea is to have a "world" where there are a lot of players then their must be an obscene amount of content or goals that take a while. Of the games you are thinking of, is there one (or more) that you would think of playing for months on end?
Because otherwise players will run through the content in the initial rush then leave, the world will be empty for those who join late, then after a year another bit of content and then a repeat of players playing for a bit then leaving.
I think the original idea of an mmorpg was for it to be a rich inhabited world.
I think you are possibly thinking of games where you might do it for a few weeks then move on?
You can have time consuming goals that don't require a rat race of quest or the most basic repetitious as we have now. Will there some grind yes. Does the game have to.be based around grinds? No.
There just need to be more imagination about what you can do in a MMORPG. Beyond EQ/WoW
ok great, what? Because anything can be considered "a grind" if one does too much of it.
One person in this thread said he wants to get to the fun part. What's that?!?!?! Raiding?
Well, I assume that for him that's fun. If I had to raid as much as, say, World of Warcraft players, I'd quit. Not fun.
Now, I'm not saying that players should grind mobs ad infinitum or quest until their eyes bleed. I am saying that anything can be considered a grind, even "the fun parts" if players don't really like it or if they do it for too long.
To explain that would be a whole other post.
This goes to the point that if you are making a MMORPG that is just surface level of themepark there has to be grind for people to stay playing. There wouldn't much else to do.
It's the big reason why even games with "content" failed to meet their goals. You need to be a big company that can make months worth quest and presentation to keep players going like WoW, ESO and etc.
You would need sandbox activities. You would need activities that are emergent. You have more time based advancement than active based stuff. There are a lot of things that can he done to give you gameplay choice over grinds.
But that's MY point. I agree with the sandbox activities but guess what? Some people hate those things. They don't want Sandbox activities that they find "tedious."
I think they are great. I love Outward, I love Conan Exiles. But for many people the idea of having to take care of that type of detail or losing "one's stuff" or having to eat or having to seek shelter is tedious and therefore a grind.
Also, two things from your earlier posts.
Some people don't mind reading books/stories over and over again. A coworker reads the Wheel of time series every two years or so.
Also, if you are surprised by people saying they don't want clones but then people say their ideal games is like a World of Warcraft, they probably aren't the same people.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Sovrath said: But that's MY point. I agree with the sandbox activities but guess what? Some people hate those things. They don't want Sandbox activities that they find "tedious."
I think they are great. I love Outward, I love Conan Exiles. But for many people the idea of having to take care of that type of detail or losing "one's stuff" or having to eat or having to seek shelter is tedious and therefore a grind.
That's why indie developers are so important. They build the games they want to play and not follow a formula like AAA developers looking for the highest populations possible.
I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.
Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"
Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.
I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.
If the idea is to have a "world" where there are a lot of players then their must be an obscene amount of content or goals that take a while. Of the games you are thinking of, is there one (or more) that you would think of playing for months on end?
Because otherwise players will run through the content in the initial rush then leave, the world will be empty for those who join late, then after a year another bit of content and then a repeat of players playing for a bit then leaving.
I think the original idea of an mmorpg was for it to be a rich inhabited world.
I think you are possibly thinking of games where you might do it for a few weeks then move on?
You can have time consuming goals that don't require a rat race of quest or the most basic repetitious as we have now. Will there some grind yes. Does the game have to.be based around grinds? No.
There just need to be more imagination about what you can do in a MMORPG. Beyond EQ/WoW
ok great, what? Because anything can be considered "a grind" if one does too much of it.
One person in this thread said he wants to get to the fun part. What's that?!?!?! Raiding?
Well, I assume that for him that's fun. If I had to raid as much as, say, World of Warcraft players, I'd quit. Not fun.
Now, I'm not saying that players should grind mobs ad infinitum or quest until their eyes bleed. I am saying that anything can be considered a grind, even "the fun parts" if players don't really like it or if they do it for too long.
To explain that would be a whole other post.
This goes to the point that if you are making a MMORPG that is just surface level of themepark there has to be grind for people to stay playing. There wouldn't much else to do.
It's the big reason why even games with "content" failed to meet their goals. You need to be a big company that can make months worth quest and presentation to keep players going like WoW, ESO and etc.
You would need sandbox activities. You would need activities that are emergent. You have more time based advancement than active based stuff. There are a lot of things that can he done to give you gameplay choice over grinds.
But that's MY point. I agree with the sandbox activities but guess what? Some people hate those things. They don't want Sandbox activities that they find "tedious."
I think they are great. I love Outward, I love Conan Exiles. But for many people the idea of having to take care of that type of detail or losing "one's stuff" or having to eat or having to seek shelter is tedious and therefore a grind.
Also, two things from your earlier posts.
Some people don't mind reading books/stories over and over again. A coworker reads the Wheel of time series every two years or so.
Also, if you are surprised by people saying they don't want clones but then people say their ideal games is like a World of Warcraft, they probably aren't the same people.
Survival games aren't exactly the same as sandbox MMORPG. Sandbox is about creating permanency in the world. At least permanent until it changes. I mean SWG wasn't making you eat or change diapers.
The MMORPG is saddled with a lot psychological baggage of what a MMORPG should be. People want change but it's usually confined to a small box of what they have already done. I want an apple tree instead of cherry.
Even developers have features that cause them problems like vertical progression they stick with it. Usually make it very easy and/or level scaling or paid leveling and more to allow the player base to avoid leveling. Negating their own millions of dollar content which is bizarre to say the least.
This industry should have been working on emergent and procedural content decades ago. Even player driven content even as basic as work orders into dangerous places. You seed a dragon and minions in an ecosystem and the effects it has on NPCs and the environment leads to a raid. Not handful of players doing the same raid they saw on YouTube rushing other players to do it fast.
Grind in MMORPG is from predictability and repetition. You kill the camp of right level mobs over and over. You find the right level guy with a ? mark over his head with forever problems. You raid the same raids each week.
Remove the predictability and it changes. NPC aren't always in the same place because they were killed off or move nor need them to level. The NPC with the ? problem is solved forever and another NPC has a ? now because the system put a encounter near his home. You get quest and rumors of a boss encounter and search the near by area for a raid.
You engage players in content they can't predict and remove the need to grind out quest or NPCs to level and you will have a less grindy game. And as I said you need content outside of combat to give players.
Sovrath said: But that's MY point. I agree with the sandbox activities but guess what? Some people hate those things. They don't want Sandbox activities that they find "tedious."
I think they are great. I love Outward, I love Conan Exiles. But for many people the idea of having to take care of that type of detail or losing "one's stuff" or having to eat or having to seek shelter is tedious and therefore a grind.
That's why indie developers are so important. They build the games they want to play and not follow a formula like AAA developers looking for the highest populations possible.
The importance of indie developers is to escape the corporate pressures that confine games. MMORPG are in a bad spot of being hard to do on a small budget and limited talent unlike other genres.
This goes to the point that if you are making a MMORPG that is just surface level of themepark there has to be grind for people to stay playing. There wouldn't much else to do.
It's the big reason why even games with "content" failed to meet their goals. You need to be a big company that can make months worth quest and presentation to keep players going like WoW, ESO and etc.
You would need sandbox activities. You would need activities that are emergent. You have more time based advancement than active based stuff. There are a lot of things that can he done to give you gameplay choice over grinds.
And why not player's quests? Is that so hard in a MMO? Why instead NPC players to give quests for crafting, hunting, combat? Why all the games should follow the WoW solo model of - been there, done that, which is in fact - been everywhere, done everything?
You choose to be a blacksmith for example. That means you cannot be merchant, tailor, hunter, miner and etc. Then when you need ingredients, you will give quests to other players. It is pretty simple. A game where your choices have consequences.
Work orders are simple quest.
Having true player quest would require players being placed in a crisis. For example if a miner has his mines infested by group difficult NPC then he could reach out to other players to help him. If not his mining operation is halted.
Survival games aren't exactly the same as sandbox MMORPG. Sandbox is about creating permanency in the world. At least permanent until it changes. I mean SWG wasn't making you eat or change diapers.
The MMORPG is saddled with a lot psychological baggage of what a MMORPG should be. People want change but it's usually confined to a small box of what they have already done. I want an apple tree instead of cherry.
Even developers have features that cause them problems like vertical progression they stick with it. Usually make it very easy and/or level scaling or paid leveling and more to allow the player base to avoid leveling. Negating their own millions of dollar content which is bizarre to say the least.
This industry should have been working on emergent and procedural content decades ago. Even player driven content even as basic as work orders into dangerous places. You seed a dragon and minions in an ecosystem and the effects it has on NPCs and the environment leads to a raid. Not handful of players doing the same raid they saw on YouTube rushing other players to do it fast.
Grind in MMORPG is from predictability and repetition. You kill the camp of right level mobs over and over. You find the right level guy with a ? mark over his head with forever problems. You raid the same raids each week.
Remove the predictability and it changes. NPC aren't always in the same place because they were killed off or move nor need them to level. The NPC with the ? problem is solved forever and another NPC has a ? now because the system put a encounter near his home. You get quest and rumors of a boss encounter and search the near by area for a raid.
You engage players in content they can't predict and remove the need to grind out quest or NPCs to level and you will have a less grindy game. And as I said you need content outside of combat to give players.
Well the argument for what a sandbox game is, is another topic. There are people who would disagree with your assertion.
Heck, I know I do.
But that's not the topic.
The topic is about "grind." And "no" grind isn't necessarily about predictability.
There
are people who love camping mobs. The predictability is that mobs will
spawn. The thing that is different is what happens when a group doesn't
spawn exactly the same way, the mobs aren't killed fast enough and there
is an additional spawn, etc.
The very act of camping is predictable. You will kill mobs. But people love it. That's not really a grind.
There
are people who love "questing." Can't say there's much predictable in
the stories (necessarily) though I suppose the mechanics behind it are
usually "collect this/kill that/talk with them."
that's predictable. Yet people love it.
There
are people who love to raid. The predictability is that you know where
the mobs will be, what skills the boss will use. But people still love
it.
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it. Now, you might not like anything
predictable (I bet anything can be said to have some predictability) but
that's your thing.
As far as giving players
content outside of combat, this is also your thing. There are people
(myself included) who love combat. There are people who don't want to
craft, they don't want to play the market, they don't want to build,
they want combat.
I would say the real issue
here is that you want something outside of combat. And that's fine.
Games should also offer other things if they can. Whether they "do it
right" is another thing entirely.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it.
Grind is just repetition, you may love it, but that does not matter.
This is actually not what grind is at all. If you love it, it's not a grind. By definition.
Just a minor correction.
A Grind is simply a task done in repetition where the outcome is predictable, weather you enjoy it, is vastly irrelevant. I believe you are confusing Tedium with Grind.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it.
Grind is just repetition, you may love it, but that does not matter.
This is actually not what grind is at all. If you love it, it's not a grind. By definition.
Just a minor correction.
A Grind is simply a task done in repetition where the outcome is predictable, weather you enjoy it, is vastly irrelevant. I believe you are confusing Tedium with Grind.
Fun is actually an antonym of grind. Grind is certainly not a synonym of repetition.
If you find what you are repeating fun, it's not a grind.
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it.
Grind is just repetition, you may love it, but that does not matter.
This is actually not what grind is at all. If you love it, it's not a grind. By definition.
Just a minor correction.
A Grind is simply a task done in repetition where the outcome is predictable, weather you enjoy it, is vastly irrelevant. I believe you are confusing Tedium with Grind.
In this case people usually use the word "grind" as a pejorative.
So that's why people associate the word with "negative."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Anything that has a level progression, gear progression or any sort of character progression in general should have a "grind' per se. If someone chooses to play a game that has some form of progression than they should expect some sort of "grind". The problem in this day an age though is that the word "grind" is usually tacked onto something as being bad. I personally love grinds as they usually entail something at the end of the tunnel whether it be good, bad, etc. It usually means you're doing x, y, and z to obtain something at the end of it and I like that. A carrot dangling at the end of the stick kinda deal.
I enjoy things that take time to achieve because that means when I achieve that goal, it might have that sense of accomplishment attached to it, something that is desperately missing in this day an age of games because people bitch, complain, cry that something takes too long to achieve so devs cave in and make things stupidly easy. Take WoW for example. Gear and levels used to take a little time to acquire, and not everyone had purples and/or the same gear... now levels and gear are handed out on a silver platter for you extremely easy. You can say the same for most games today that have some sort of progression. It's easy, quick. Difficult stuff needs to come back and give us that sense of accomplishment how it used to.
Survival games aren't exactly the same as sandbox MMORPG. Sandbox is about creating permanency in the world. At least permanent until it changes. I mean SWG wasn't making you eat or change diapers.
The MMORPG is saddled with a lot psychological baggage of what a MMORPG should be. People want change but it's usually confined to a small box of what they have already done. I want an apple tree instead of cherry.
Even developers have features that cause them problems like vertical progression they stick with it. Usually make it very easy and/or level scaling or paid leveling and more to allow the player base to avoid leveling. Negating their own millions of dollar content which is bizarre to say the least.
This industry should have been working on emergent and procedural content decades ago. Even player driven content even as basic as work orders into dangerous places. You seed a dragon and minions in an ecosystem and the effects it has on NPCs and the environment leads to a raid. Not handful of players doing the same raid they saw on YouTube rushing other players to do it fast.
Grind in MMORPG is from predictability and repetition. You kill the camp of right level mobs over and over. You find the right level guy with a ? mark over his head with forever problems. You raid the same raids each week.
Remove the predictability and it changes. NPC aren't always in the same place because they were killed off or move nor need them to level. The NPC with the ? problem is solved forever and another NPC has a ? now because the system put a encounter near his home. You get quest and rumors of a boss encounter and search the near by area for a raid.
You engage players in content they can't predict and remove the need to grind out quest or NPCs to level and you will have a less grindy game. And as I said you need content outside of combat to give players.
Well the argument for what a sandbox game is, is another topic. There are people who would disagree with your assertion.
Heck, I know I do.
But that's not the topic.
The topic is about "grind." And "no" grind isn't necessarily about predictability.
There
are people who love camping mobs. The predictability is that mobs will
spawn. The thing that is different is what happens when a group doesn't
spawn exactly the same way, the mobs aren't killed fast enough and there
is an additional spawn, etc.
The very act of camping is predictable. You will kill mobs. But people love it. That's not really a grind.
There
are people who love "questing." Can't say there's much predictable in
the stories (necessarily) though I suppose the mechanics behind it are
usually "collect this/kill that/talk with them."
that's predictable. Yet people love it.
There
are people who love to raid. The predictability is that you know where
the mobs will be, what skills the boss will use. But people still love
it.
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it. Now, you might not like anything
predictable (I bet anything can be said to have some predictability) but
that's your thing.
As far as giving players
content outside of combat, this is also your thing. There are people
(myself included) who love combat. There are people who don't want to
craft, they don't want to play the market, they don't want to build,
they want combat.
I would say the real issue
here is that you want something outside of combat. And that's fine.
Games should also offer other things if they can. Whether they "do it
right" is another thing entirely.
Of course it comes down to taste.
If players truly loved leveling metrics would show it and leveling would be extended not shortened or skippable. If raiding was loved more than handful of the population would be doing it. It says more to me a comfort level from players and developers doing what has been done for 20 years.
You don't have to be crafter to have interdependency with crafting. You can world build. There are activities you can have that aren't 100 combat and activities based around combat and to get to combat.
What I am talking though is another step content creation. Content that is created by systems to evolve as the players and NPCs. A good one can be modified by developer content.
It's a goal to strive for a more virtual world that can only be done in an MMORPG.
Anything that has a level progression, gear progression or any sort of character progression in general should have a "grind' per se. If someone chooses to play a game that has some form of progression than they should expect some sort of "grind". The problem in this day an age though is that the word "grind" is usually tacked onto something as being bad. I personally love grinds as they usually entail something at the end of the tunnel whether it be good, bad, etc. It usually means you're doing x, y, and z to obtain something at the end of it and I like that. A carrot dangling at the end of the stick kinda deal.
I enjoy things that take time to achieve because that means when I achieve that goal, it might have that sense of accomplishment attached to it, something that is desperately missing in this day an age of games because people bitch, complain, cry that something takes too long to achieve so devs cave in and make things stupidly easy. Take WoW for example. Gear and levels used to take a little time to acquire, and not everyone had purples and/or the same gear... now levels and gear are handed out on a silver platter for you extremely easy. You can say the same for most games today that have some sort of progression. It's easy, quick. Difficult stuff needs to come back and give us that sense of accomplishment how it used to.
What about just having difficultly? Tedium as difficulty sucks. It's a challenge of getting through sucky crap. Not a challenge of skill.
I would take tough difficulty in skill with shallow progression over a tedious grind and repetition used as a difficulty. Everyone shouldn't be walking around with legendary crap. It should be a matter of skill and luck. Not who is willing to tough out boredom to repeat the same quest and raids to get something.
Anything that has a level progression, gear progression or any sort of character progression in general should have a "grind' per se. If someone chooses to play a game that has some form of progression than they should expect some sort of "grind". The problem in this day an age though is that the word "grind" is usually tacked onto something as being bad. I personally love grinds as they usually entail something at the end of the tunnel whether it be good, bad, etc. It usually means you're doing x, y, and z to obtain something at the end of it and I like that. A carrot dangling at the end of the stick kinda deal.
I enjoy things that take time to achieve because that means when I achieve that goal, it might have that sense of accomplishment attached to it, something that is desperately missing in this day an age of games because people bitch, complain, cry that something takes too long to achieve so devs cave in and make things stupidly easy. Take WoW for example. Gear and levels used to take a little time to acquire, and not everyone had purples and/or the same gear... now levels and gear are handed out on a silver platter for you extremely easy. You can say the same for most games today that have some sort of progression. It's easy, quick. Difficult stuff needs to come back and give us that sense of accomplishment how it used to.
What about just having difficultly? Tedium as difficulty sucks. It's a challenge of getting through sucky crap. Not a challenge of skill.
I would take tough difficulty in skill with shallow progression over a tedious grind and repetition used as a difficulty. Everyone shouldn't be walking around with legendary crap. It should be a matter of skill and luck. Not who is willing to tough out boredom to repeat the same quest and raids to get something.
I agree with what you say about everyone shouldn't be walking around with legendary crap. That is the problem with today's generation of MMORPG's is that they make items/gear, etc, so accessible, so easy to obtain they take any challenge out of the equation. And, I think it's the sole reason that many people play an MMO for a short amount of time, quit and move onto the next, rinse and repeat. Leveling is easy, obtaining gear is easy. There is absolutely ZERO challenge and longevity to games that hand out gear like candy on Halloween.
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it.
Grind is just repetition, you may love it, but that does not matter.
This is actually not what grind is at all. If you love it, it's not a grind. By definition.
If you were right most threads about the grind in this forum would not exist. Ask or read and you will see many people like the grind. In the video gaming, grinding is performing repetitive tasks for progress. So you may love it, and your definition is simply wrong.
No, people have become complacent with word definition and loosely use the word "grind" when "time to max level" should be used. Grind should only be used when you feel you are doing something you don't want to do, that you don't find enjoyable and only a means to an end. If you enjoy leveling and don't care if you reach max level or when you do then it's not a grind. You are already and always doing what you set out to do.
Grind is more about doing something over
and over and not liking/loving it.
Grind is just repetition, you may love it, but that does not matter.
This is actually not what grind is at all. If you love it, it's not a grind. By definition.
If you were right most threads about the grind in this forum would not exist. Ask or read and you will see many people like the grind. In the video gaming, grinding is performing repetitive tasks for progress. So you may love it, and your definition is simply wrong.
No, people have become complacent with word definition and loosely use the word "grind" when "time to max level" should be used. Grind should only be used when you feel you are doing something you don't want to do, that you don't find enjoyable and only a means to an end. If you enjoy leveling and don't care if you reach max level or when you do then it's not a grind. You are already and always doing what you set out to do.
Grind is subjective. I compare it to people who like pain or anything that normally has negative connotations. What is painful is subjective as well.
At the end of the day we know what we are talking about. Splitting hairs about defining word use that has had non traditional use since 1999 at least is useless.
Comments
There just need to be more imagination about what you can do in a MMORPG. Beyond EQ/WoW
Don't go ruining the whole idea by limiting players to dumb ideas like you can only pick and choose 5.Make the reasoning MAKE SENSE,like you have to go home and change your setup to become a different class and that class cannot utilize certain skills.
Just like a baseball player cannot perform a slapshot with a baseball bat and vice versa,if switching to a baseball player your not hitting home runs with a hockey stick.So certain skills would only follow certain classes.Now if you want to get real cute,utilize th FFXI idea of multi classing,the reasoning is there and gives your character a lot of versatility.
A level should represent something about your character and not just a number.There should NOT be a set linear pattern of do these 1500 quests to get level 90.In those cases then yes they are a simple linear grind instead of adding realism,like learning skills over time,they add crappy linear content ideas and usually not even good content.
I would still ANY day of the year take any grind over a game that just hands me levels for no reason,like walk from point A>B and WHOA level 2!,then go walk over to Chief wooka wooka and WHOA level 3.That kind of crap does exist and those games get the instant dumpster treatment.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Content, progression and grinding are not necessarily directly related. For example, gathering mats is a chore, may allow for progression but isn't a direct consequence. It may be providing content but not directly although it's giving you something to do so you could play words games with that. In a monetised game dailies and gathering etc can be averted so what does that say about the necessity for grind and how its used to perhaps punish those not paying?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A grind is really only a grind, when you have done something enough times that the outcome is predictable.
With that said, regardless if a company built a game that required no grind at all, some players would grind content regardless, for the sole fact that the outcome would be predictable.
Right, wrong, good or bad, it is just the way it is.
This goes to the point that if you are making a MMORPG that is just surface level of themepark there has to be grind for people to stay playing. There wouldn't much else to do.
It's the big reason why even games with "content" failed to meet their goals. You need to be a big company that can make months worth quest and presentation to keep players going like WoW, ESO and etc.
You would need sandbox activities. You would need activities that are emergent. You have more time based advancement than active based stuff. There are a lot of things that can he done to give you gameplay choice over grinds.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The MMORPG is saddled with a lot psychological baggage of what a MMORPG should be. People want change but it's usually confined to a small box of what they have already done. I want an apple tree instead of cherry.
Even developers have features that cause them problems like vertical progression they stick with it. Usually make it very easy and/or level scaling or paid leveling and more to allow the player base to avoid leveling. Negating their own millions of dollar content which is bizarre to say the least.
This industry should have been working on emergent and procedural content decades ago. Even player driven content even as basic as work orders into dangerous places. You seed a dragon and minions in an ecosystem and the effects it has on NPCs and the environment leads to a raid. Not handful of players doing the same raid they saw on YouTube rushing other players to do it fast.
Grind in MMORPG is from predictability and repetition. You kill the camp of right level mobs over and over. You find the right level guy with a ? mark over his head with forever problems. You raid the same raids each week.
Remove the predictability and it changes. NPC aren't always in the same place because they were killed off or move nor need them to level. The NPC with the ? problem is solved forever and another NPC has a ? now because the system put a encounter near his home. You get quest and rumors of a boss encounter and search the near by area for a raid.
You engage players in content they can't predict and remove the need to grind out quest or NPCs to level and you will have a less grindy game. And as I said you need content outside of combat to give players.
Having true player quest would require players being placed in a crisis. For example if a miner has his mines infested by group difficult NPC then he could reach out to other players to help him. If not his mining operation is halted.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A Grind is simply a task done in repetition where the outcome is predictable, weather you enjoy it, is vastly irrelevant. I believe you are confusing Tedium with Grind.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I enjoy things that take time to achieve because that means when I achieve that goal, it might have that sense of accomplishment attached to it, something that is desperately missing in this day an age of games because people bitch, complain, cry that something takes too long to achieve so devs cave in and make things stupidly easy. Take WoW for example. Gear and levels used to take a little time to acquire, and not everyone had purples and/or the same gear... now levels and gear are handed out on a silver platter for you extremely easy. You can say the same for most games today that have some sort of progression. It's easy, quick. Difficult stuff needs to come back and give us that sense of accomplishment how it used to.
If players truly loved leveling metrics would show it and leveling would be extended not shortened or skippable. If raiding was loved more than handful of the population would be doing it. It says more to me a comfort level from players and developers doing what has been done for 20 years.
You don't have to be crafter to have interdependency with crafting. You can world build. There are activities you can have that aren't 100 combat and activities based around combat and to get to combat.
What I am talking though is another step content creation. Content that is created by systems to evolve as the players and NPCs. A good one can be modified by developer content.
It's a goal to strive for a more virtual world that can only be done in an MMORPG.
I would take tough difficulty in skill with shallow progression over a tedious grind and repetition used as a difficulty. Everyone shouldn't be walking around with legendary crap. It should be a matter of skill and luck. Not who is willing to tough out boredom to repeat the same quest and raids to get something.
At the end of the day we know what we are talking about. Splitting hairs about defining word use that has had non traditional use since 1999 at least is useless.