Black desert online seems to do very well

AAAMEOW

I don't play black desert online.  I'm just shocked when I hear the black desert franchise have reach 1 billion$ in gross sales.  I also heard runescape posting some respectable number.

I don't know why people keep saying the genre are dead.  The genre may be dead for many people, since they can't find a mmorpg they enjoy.  Most plenty of people still enjoying and playing.

Kyleran

AAAMEOW said:

I don't play black desert online.  I'm just shocked when I hear the black desert franchise have reach 1 billion$ in gross sales.  I also heard runescape posting some respectable number.

I don't know why people keep saying the genre are dead.  The genre may be dead for many people, since they can't find a mmorpg they enjoy.  Most plenty of people still enjoying and playing.

Not much new on the horizon in AAA space is why, you are holding up a 4 year old game which is now making much of its revenue from mobile sales as an indicator of MMORPG health?

Here's an interesting point, tens of millions of gamers aren't playing MMORPGs, they are off spending their dough on Fortnite, PGO or God knows what.

Amaranthar

I haven't followed it, but I'm wondering what everybody thinks of the game, OUTSIDE of the cash shop issues?

ananit

Amaranthar said:

I haven't followed it, but I'm wondering what everybody thinks of the game, OUTSIDE of the cash shop issues?

you can't dissociate them. the game has litteraly been designed around the cash shop. the entirety of the progression has been thought and designed around maximizing cash interactions at every corners. that's most asian mmos for you
other than that, the game is beautiful and i personnaly love the combat. every else needs to burn in a dumpster fire.

ZiCrO

Amaranthar said:

I haven't followed it, but I'm wondering what everybody thinks of the game, OUTSIDE of the cash shop issues?

I go back to playing it every now and then and try hard to like it as I think it is one of the best MMO's to be released in recent years. The game's fighting mechanics are great and the pve isn't bad along with the questing/crafting etc which is quite good. Also the game looks great.

The cash shop is at a very aggressive "pay for convenience" but honestly you'll be left behind if you don't spend some money on inventory slots/pets etc.

As much I try to love the game as I'm desperate for a good MMO the game somehow keeps burning me out with its very repetitive grind and what feels like pointless pvp and next to no endgame. Some added dungeons and risk/reward type pvp and pve I think would help it from feeling like such a grind.

I want the same feeling as when you play a game like Rust to be in a MMO that gives it some meaning and excitement.

Ungood

BDO is a great game, I personally really disliked their UI, it was the apex of being anti-intuitive, so, it always made playing a chore to do basic things.. which killed all the fun for me. But, to anyone that did not have an issue with the UI, the game world, combat, and features and design style are amazing. Really top notch game and I can fully see why they made 1 billion so far.

Cleffy

I can see why they made a billion. You can say all you want about the bad qualities, but it also has that key everyone demands, gameplay. Their instancing system is simply top notch.

Theocritus

I am enjoying it...its a bit of a grind beyond 56 but most MMOs are....The graphics are great and alot to do even if afk.

Wizardry

I highly doubt BDO does well as a rpg,i would bet it survives on pvp and a cash shop that feeds it.
Remove the cash shop and the pvp,see if there is more than 100 people left.

TheDarkrayne

Wizardry said:

I highly doubt BDO does well as a rpg,i would bet it survives on pvp and a cash shop that feeds it.
Remove the cash shop and the pvp,see if there is more than 100 people left.

Since you've repeated this 'RPG' comment over about 3 topics in a row now.. Can you explain to us why you seem to think an RPG means you get to decide everything yourself? I mean, RPG originally comes from tabletop games, like Dungeons & Dragons, where you had a Gamemaster who pre-planned and then told you your multi-arc story. It was the Gamemaster's story, not yours. You literally just picked a character and than played 'their' game.

Caffynated

BDO is a fun casual game. The more dedicated you are to it, the less you will enjoy it.

Positives:

Beautiful graphics with a realistic look to the world. It doesn't have your typical Asian art style with exaggerated features and cartoonish monsters. It looks very Western (Occidental, not Cowboy), which is a nice change from most MMOs that are out.

Fun, fast paced combat with a lot of skill variety so that you can mix things up and not just do one wombo combo over and over. Every class has ~50 skills to choose from.

Endless progression that allows you to always have a goal to log in and play for. While you can get your core skills as you level, the massive array of abilities to choose from will take you thousands of hours to unlock them all. I get on and say "I want to earn enough skill points to train fireball III tonight", or I want to grind some silver and upgrade a piece of gear. BDO is not an instant gratification game. It has the old EQ feel where you weren't racing to end game because the journey is enjoyable.

Huge open world with tons of content. As a new player you have years of gameplay ahead of you before you experience everything and they're still actively adding new areas and revamping old content to make it better. There's a huge variety of things to do: mob grinding, world bosses, scroll bosses, Dark Rifts, manage your slave worker empire, tame wild horses, train and bread them to get better mounts, farm, fish, hunt sea monsters with a ship, gather, PvP on Arsha (or anywhere if you're willing to go red), node wars, sieges, instanced PvP, the arena, and much more. BDO is a game with a ton of depth. They've started adding more group oriented PvE zones so that you can get away from the solo gameplay that older areas focused on.

The bad:

The servers are a dumpster fire. When the game launched you might occasionally get lag and desync, but now it's ridiculous. Dodge is basically pointless because you will just warp backward and get hit by the attack anyway.

Combat, despite having a ton of variety, is shallow compared to other action games like Guild Wars 2, TERA or Dragon Nest. Most of the time you're just chaining together protected skills (block, forward guard or super armor) to avoid damage while putting out your own. Few skills modify others and combos are comparatively simplistic. In older content things like down attack and air attack mattered more, but now most mobs either get one shot or they're immune to KD/Float so they only matter in PvP. There's nothing like GW2's combo fields, and combo chains are much more rigid than TERA.

The game is a casino. Everything is RNG. How much loot you get is RNG. Building failstacks for enchanting is RNG. Enchanting is RNG. Staying connected is RNG. It's not as bad as it used to be, but damn it's still an absurd amount of RNG.

The cash shop is P2W and basically mandatory. You will not enjoy playing this game if you don't buy 5 pets. Without pets it takes longer to loot mobs than it does to kill them, and you will cripple your XP/silver per hour if you don't buy them. Spending money on artisan memory can save you a ton of time. It takes about an hour to do a relic scroll group for memory fragments and you'll be lucky to get 60-70 out of it. Every enchanting attempt costs you 10 memory fragments and you can easily fail dozens of attempts per piece of equipment just to get it to TRI. It's very abusive and pushes you to the cash shop to buy artisan memory to make your memory fragments(and time spent gathering them) stretch 4x as far. Then there's costume melting for the dedicated P2W enthusiast.

It's a fun game, but it's deeply flawed.

Dwaaawfful

My ogre friends tell me it has merits, but i haven't looked in on it yet myself.

Amaranthar

Thank you's to DMKano and Caffinated for the excellent reviews.
Those were well detailed.
Thanks to everyone else for your input too.

cheyane

The reason I loved BDO is simple. I never PvPed or went after the gear RNG. I logged in to grow things and sell them to far off places. I had a lot of workers and I specialized them and had fun just riding about going far away with my wagons. When I got bored with that I would breed horses or look to opening nodes and managing my workers for maximum output. I enjoyed growing crops no one would try, they all grew sunflowers I didn't.

I crafted things and made ships so I could travel even further. I also did afk fishing but trading made more money so I mostly traded.

I had one pet. I never bought more because I did not need to as I said I played a very laid back game. I just loved to explore the beautiful world. I finally quit after I had done most of what I wanted to for another game but I enjoyed my time on BDO.

The beauty of BDO is its life systems they were great and fresh.

Phry

You do need the pets, you can get along without them, but its definitely a better game if you have them, but the game is not all about the combat, whether its PVP or PVE, i play the game a lot, but i don't do either of those activities, i am not the only one either. I think one of the reasons why BDO has achieved the level of success that it has is because you play the game how you want to and i choose to play the game as a Trader and have done so for well over a year now, its a very relaxing way to play the game, although now that sea battles on Arsha are more of a thing i am finally tempted to build that Frigate! 

Kyleran

Well regardless of what some might think of BDO, (including me) as the OP said, it seems to be doing well.

If I ever "fail" at making something creative in life I hope I sell a billion dollars of it.

Ungood

When it comes to games.. some people will see a fine piece of ass, others will see a shit hole.

They are both right.

Scot

Great graphics and skimpy outfits for girls go a long way.

To be fair it has a complex and intriguing economy system but I doubt that's what will be taken from BDO for the future of how to make a good MMO. More likely the item update system which requires a second life to grind or cash shop purchases to sell on to other players will be seen again.

Scot

DMKano said:

Ungood said:

BDO is a great game, I personally really disliked their UI, it was the apex of being anti-intuitive, so, it always made playing a chore to do basic things.. which killed all the fun for me. But, to anyone that did not have an issue with the UI, the game world, combat, and features and design style are amazing. Really top notch game and I can fully see why they made 1 billion so far.

They made 1 billion because they found an amazing way to fleece their playerbase for as much money as possible via cash shop.

It would be a great game if they removed some absolutley atrocious systems:

1. RNG with RNG on top of more RNG  - gear upgrade system

2. Every class in game is DPS

3. Out of 17 classes only a handful is viable in PvP

4. PvE combat is a joke from 1 to 60+, world bosses = gangbang with horrible performance 

5.Best in slot gear is identical for every class - yeah ehm... 

6. The game is a cheaters paradise due to lots of client side code and lack of server checks

7. They shut down their BR arena because of rampant cheating that they failed to curb

8. All game systems lead to - cash shop!
  - in game armor looks like ass - $30 and it's fixed
  - want to repair gear at 4x mem frag effectiveness- artisan mem in cash shop  can help
  - need valks mem or cron stones for safe upgrade - buy a bunch of those $30 costumes and melt them!
  - want to sell something in auction house but hate the 30% profit loss- buy a value pack in cash shop!
- dont  have T4 pets - spend a crapload on cash shop
shop
- need more inv slots? Bank slots? - cha ching
- getting encumbered too quickly? $$$
- training horses but getting crap skills? Cash shop reroll
- want to process something immediately? Cha ching
- want to fish better, swim better, train horses faster... there's a cash shop outfit that can help
- etc....

Cash shop has a fix for any problem in BDO

That's why they made 1bil - the core playerbase is spending $300+ a month

The only thing I disagree with here is I say Kerching and DMKano says Cha ching, maybe thats an American thing?

Kyleran

DMKano said:

Scot said:

Complex economy system?
?

The only use for silver is to get better gear - aka boss gear - and if you dont PvP - what is the use???

So if you are not into PvP and you are amassing all this wealth in BDO... what exactly are you going to spend it on?

For some PVE players the amassing of vast sums of in game coin is the goal itself, regardless of what to spend it on.

I played EVE for 10 years this way, not much for PVP, but I did like trying to find better ways to earn more ISK faster.

One reason is it became a measure of what I could buy had I chosen to.

When I first started the thought of buying and flying a Dreadnought or Carrier seemed out of reach, by time I quit I was PVE ratting in them.

I have enough to buy my own personal Titan, which for a casual player like me is no small accomplishment,  but as its totally a PVP ship, never saw a reason to.

I suspect there are many gamers like me in BDO as well, the idea of setting up the means to earn multi billions is all of the game they need, PVPer just never would understand.

Besides, PVEers can usually watch Netflix while gaming, something almost no proper PVPer can ever do. (Except for gate camping in EVE, easy to do other things while floating in space waiting for some unlucky sucker to stumble in)

Kyleran

DMKano said:

Kyleran said:

DMKano said:

Scot said:

Complex economy system?
?

The only use for silver is to get better gear - aka boss gear - and if you dont PvP - what is the use???

So if you are not into PvP and you are amassing all this wealth in BDO... what exactly are you going to spend it on?

For some PVE players the amassing of vast sums of in game coin is the goal itself, regardless of what to spend it on.

I played EVE for 10 years this way, not much for PVP, but I did like trying to find better ways to earn more ISK faster.

One reason is it became a measure of what I could buy had I chosen to.

When I first started the thought of buying and flying a Dreadnought or Carrier seemed out of reach, by time I quit I was PVE ratting in them.

I have enough to buy my own personal Titan, which for a casual player like me is no small accomplishment,  but as its totally a PVP ship, never saw a reason to.

I suspect there are many gamers like me in BDO as well, the idea of setting up the means to earn multi billions is all of the game they need, PVPer just never would understand.

Oh I get all that- but at some point - doesn't the question of why amass all this if you aren't PvPing become louder and louder in your mind?

I think once PvE players stop and asses their own actions they realize that all their gameplay is a journey without a destination - this can have a serious dampening effect on the fun factor.

Yes,  especially in gear grinding theme parks I totally agree. I think it never happened to me in EVE because there are still many things I can't yet afford, some players have so much ISK they purchase and sometime fight in ships which cost them more than twice my total wealth....and barely dented their fortunes. 

Also, while I don't often PVP in EVE, I did have to do some, mostly home defence and it felt good to be able to fit, fight and even get killed in a properly kitted PVP hull and not give much thought to losing one.

Besides, someday if I ever find the time, and the game still exists I'd like to take a stab at building my own star empire and it will take serious funds to fight for it, so there's that motivation as well.

Cheers. 

cheyane

DMKano said:

cheyane said:

The reason I loved BDO is simple. I never PvPed or went after the gear RNG. I logged in to grow things and sell them to far off places. I had a lot of workers and I specialized them and had fun just riding about going far away with my wagons. When I got bored with that I would breed horses or look to opening nodes and managing my workers for maximum output. I enjoyed growing crops no one would try, they all grew sunflowers I didn't.

I crafted things and made ships so I could travel even further. I also did afk fishing but trading made more money so I mostly traded.

I had one pet. I never bought more because I did not need to as I said I played a very laid back game. I just loved to explore the beautiful world. I finally quit after I had done most of what I wanted to for another game but I enjoyed my time on BDO.

The beauty of BDO is its life systems they were great and fresh.

But for what purpose are all these life systems in the end.... it's to make silver in game. 

And what are you going to spend all billions of silver on?

Tet-pen boss gear

End-game boss gear that is really meant for PvP - so why amass all the money via lifeskilling to begin with if you are a PvE player?

Yeah.

Does it really have to have a purpose? My purpose was to have fun. I am afraid I don't share your point of view. I enjoyed my time in BDO and I am not being facile, I really did enjoy what I did enough to log on for hours and hours and not AFK fishing either I seldom did that. I spent a lot of time in game talking to people with like interest and we would compare notes of trade routes and best way to amass a fortune. Exchange horse breeds to get colour combinations and so on and talk about our workers.

I don't enjoy PvP but I enjoy doing things like this just like how I made several characters in Everquest 2 just so I could have two magnificent well furnished houses in both Freeport and Qeynos (I have even posted the screenshots of my house in Qeynos on these very boards). I made some characters to fight and gather materials for the carpenters and yes group and kill bosses for the loot that I used to craft furniture. Some of the gems could have been used to make spells but I chose to use the loot I earned in my house. I also did the same in Vanguard, I had every type of crafter in that game too leading to carpal tunnel but that is another story altogether..

The way I play is the way I enjoyed the game. I don't think it invalidates my play style and who can tell how many others are like me  who enjoy these pursuits. Is it solo play I would agree it is .... so what ? I grouped in Vanguard and Everquest 2, a lot, even more time than I spent solo so I could get the materials I needed for my home. How I play is my business and quite frankly if I'm enjoying myself who are you to tell me otherwise that I should be spending that money on PvP ? How many people can say they are truly happy playing the games they play the way others want them to. I'm playing the way I want you. Tough shit that some people don't like it and think it is the wrong way to play.

The funny thing is the way I play is a lot less destructive than supporting the RNG for gear upgrades. That includes games where the RNG is not controlled by spending real money because in the long run what they are supporting is destructive to gaming whether it encourages outrageous spending or not.

Perhaps you cannot appreciate my way of playing but it is a choice I make. My right and freedom to choose how I play.

cheyane

I knew this chap in our guild in Everquest who played a necromancer solo. He grouped when he needed some loot in a dungeon then he would solo 90% of the time he was on. He was happy far happier than the others who were quarrelling over the dragon loot and experiencing fallout in the guild. 

He could solo rooms in the dungeons like Guk. He perfected his art. Bravo to him.

Are you arguing that he is playing the game wrong when he stayed in Everquest far longer than many who experienced burnout from camping for loot or fighting for it in the guildchat?

To each his own my dear, to each his own.

Ungood

DMKano said:

cheyane said:

The reason I loved BDO is simple. I never PvPed or went after the gear RNG. I logged in to grow things and sell them to far off places. I had a lot of workers and I specialized them and had fun just riding about going far away with my wagons. When I got bored with that I would breed horses or look to opening nodes and managing my workers for maximum output. I enjoyed growing crops no one would try, they all grew sunflowers I didn't.

I crafted things and made ships so I could travel even further. I also did afk fishing but trading made more money so I mostly traded.

I had one pet. I never bought more because I did not need to as I said I played a very laid back game. I just loved to explore the beautiful world. I finally quit after I had done most of what I wanted to for another game but I enjoyed my time on BDO.

The beauty of BDO is its life systems they were great and fresh.

But for what purpose are all these life systems in the end.... it's to make silver in game. 

And what are you going to spend all billions of silver on?

Tet-pen boss gear

End-game boss gear that is really meant for PvP - so why amass all the money via lifeskilling to begin with if you are a PvE player?

Yeah.

No, see, this is where things get funny. Some people just enjoy the aspect of, say Horse Training, because, well they like horses. They could not give a flying shit about gear, levels, PvP, or anything else really. They use their silver to build a massive stable, and raise and train horses,  this becomes the game to them. 

Which in BDO, the fact that someone could, make a whole mini-game within the game just raising, training, breeding, buying and selling horses, is what makes BDO a very unique game.

With BDO's end game supposedly being PvP, to be honest, there is little incentive for a lot of PvE players to want to get to this mythical "End Game" as such, players are very free to explore and play other parts of the game and have that be equally viable means of entertainment.

If someone wants to be.. say a ship builder, which is a huge time and resource sink, they can. I mean it's not like they are missing something grand in the game, if they have chosen to manage a bunch of lumber mills, and they can literally spend their time building ships.

Why.. well because making PvP the end game, makes it so not everyone wants to do that, making it so that there is no PvE end game like raids and the like, make it so that exploring the world, talking to the townsfolk, and doing the other parts of an MMO become the game, a spect in other games that all too often ignored by way too many people in the mad rush to get to the end game.

Kind of a bold move by them to make.. doing the "other stuff" the PvE game.

I will say the cash shop was intrusive tho.

cheyane

ikcin said:

cheyane said:

I knew this chap in our guild in Everquest who played a necromancer solo. He grouped when he needed some loot in a dungeon then he would solo 90% of the time he was on. He was happy far happier than the others who were quarrelling over the dragon loot and experiencing fallout in the guild. 

He could solo rooms in the dungeons like Guk. He perfected his art. Bravo to him.

Are you arguing that he is playing the game wrong when he stayed in Everquest far longer than many who experienced burnout from camping for loot or fighting for it in the guildchat?

To each his own my dear, to each his own.

The players are never wrong. The problem comes when the publishers demand games that should satisfy that specific attitude. So when the developers make safe, instanced, solo focused, themepark games labeled as MMORPGs. As now, there is not a good sandbox, open world MMORPG. Literally there is not such a game on the market. So the majority of the players who play MMOs because they should be multiplayer, are forced out of the MMORPG genre.

Your beef is with the developers. Take it up with them.