After the starting little Intro, the world is open to you. You never have to touch the story again. You can wader the world, do Dynamic Events, maybe chase world bosses, work on making a legendary weapon.. or whatever.
It's a nice mix of offering you a Theme Park ride with their Personal & Living Story but you don't have to do it.
As Such Guild Wars 2, sounds like what you want.. you make your own choices on where you want to go, and what you want to do.
I remember I noticed right off when the game was released. Two quest per quest hub move left across the map, two more move a little more to the left. Couldn't get more liner.
Perhaps for your very first character when learning the game but the first thing I did after doing a few zones was go exploring on my ranger for pet collecting. It got interesting being a low level in a high level zone collecting pets. Of course I got one-shot by NPCs from time to time and players helped me out when they saw I needed it, it was fun and I ended up with a lot of portals mapped.
A lot of MMO's aren't really that linear. A few lock you in a starter zone but it usually take just a few hours to get out of there, or if you know your way around you can go anywhere to level. Most MMO's I play you are free to just pick a direction and adventure, never knowing exactly what you'll run into. A few areas are locked but usually not many.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The linear nature of MMO theme parks is both their strength and weakness. Theme parks provide focus, a framework to hang quests and themes on. They also result in a repetitive experience, one that lacks meaningful choice. In theme parks your story is replaced by the games story.
The best MMO anyone could make would take a mixture of both types of MMO. You would have to separate the areas where they take place. So a central theme park set of nations, surrounded by a sand box wilderness is one way to do that.
I am not sure what future there could be for purely sandbox MMOs now, the survival genre seems to have supplanted them. There is sandbox elements in those games of course, so if you want to try out sandbox the likes of Conan Exiles may be for you. But they are a pale imitation of what sandbox could be.
Per your middle paragraph, Scot... That wouldn't really work. Themepark players expect to run through their scripted content and get their gear and levels, and the big power gains that they expect. Because that's what they play for, those power gains. But as soon as a game does that, then the Sandbox freedom to "go anywhere" (which doesn't exactly mean that completely as you still need advancement) goes away due to the extremes of power gaps and the need for content zones. Without that exciting power boost, Themepark gamers would quit before they complete that zone. Or raise such a stink that the game company would regret their actions.
What I would do is add the quests in this central area, just like Themeparks, but without the power gaps and with the explanation that it's different, and low power gaps. I would treat it as a long tutorial. I would put in content that's designed to show the players how "Sandbox" works. And I would add discoveries that entice the players into wanting to explore the world beyond. I'd use a lot of information in those early Quests, riddles and keys waiting to be used in their new adventures. Things like large floor maps or tapestries of the larger world to reveal what's out there, treasure maps, discovery of words of power that will open sealed portals when found, relics tied to the outside world of discovery (keys), hints to riches, unknown monsters, etc.
And then, of course, I'd have a whole bunch more waiting for them out there in the open world. A lot of surprises. And the threat of great evils.
The linear nature of MMO theme parks is both their strength and weakness. Theme parks provide focus, a framework to hang quests and themes on. They also result in a repetitive experience, one that lacks meaningful choice. In theme parks your story is replaced by the games story.
The best MMO anyone could make would take a mixture of both types of MMO. You would have to separate the areas where they take place. So a central theme park set of nations, surrounded by a sand box wilderness is one way to do that.
I am not sure what future there could be for purely sandbox MMOs now, the survival genre seems to have supplanted them. There is sandbox elements in those games of course, so if you want to try out sandbox the likes of Conan Exiles may be for you. But they are a pale imitation of what sandbox could be.
Per your middle paragraph, Scot... That wouldn't really work. Themepark players expect to run through their scripted content and get their gear and levels, and the big power gains that they expect. Because that's what they play for, those power gains. But as soon as a game does that, then the Sandbox freedom to "go anywhere" (which doesn't exactly mean that completely as you still need advancement) goes away due to the extremes of power gaps and the need for content zones. Without that exciting power boost, Themepark gamers would quit before they complete that zone. Or raise such a stink that the game company would regret their actions.
What I would do is add the quests in this central area, just like Themeparks, but without the power gaps and with the explanation that it's different, and low power gaps. I would treat it as a long tutorial. I would put in content that's designed to show the players how "Sandbox" works. And I would add discoveries that entice the players into wanting to explore the world beyond. I'd use a lot of information in those early Quests, riddles and keys waiting to be used in their new adventures. Things like large floor maps or tapestries of the larger world to reveal what's out there, treasure maps, discovery of words of power that will open sealed portals when found, relics tied to the outside world of discovery (keys), hints to riches, unknown monsters, etc.
And then, of course, I'd have a whole bunch more waiting for them out there in the open world. A lot of surprises. And the threat of great evils.
A lot of good ideas, I don't know if my idea of having theme park and sandbox in the same game would ever work. But sandbox is a great way of dealing with the problems of end game.
What would probably happen is the players would divide into two camps, one staying in the central theme park region and the other in the sandbox wilderness. Which would not be the idea at all.
You could make those central regions the only place where you could get levelling xp and the wilderness regions the only place you could get crafting and PvP xp. They would have to be good gameplay reasons for players to want to frequent both areas.
After the starting little Intro, the world is open to you. You never have to touch the story again. You can wader the world, do Dynamic Events, maybe chase world bosses, work on making a legendary weapon.. or whatever.
It's a nice mix of offering you a Theme Park ride with their Personal & Living Story but you don't have to do it.
As Such Guild Wars 2, sounds like what you want.. you make your own choices on where you want to go, and what you want to do.
And yeah. Here we have it. GW 2 is completely meaningless*, and it's exactly because of what you just described. * You have to find your own fun / meaning
Honestly, GW 2 could be a lithmus for two types of people: those who prefer to make their own meaning and those who prefer to just adapt to an already existing framework of meaning.
Much like the delusions of a Free game that some gamers cling to, there is no such thing as a meaningful game. MMO's are pointless, frivolous, entertainment.
Now maybe some people need to be told where to go and what to do, through their entire game experience, These are called Theme Park games, the player will do as scripted, just like everyone else.
They either enjoy being on rails or they do not, that is their only choices, but this does not give the game meaning.
GW2, is more a hybrid model, where players can either follow the scripted story and enjoy the Theme Park aspects of the game, or run off and play it more Sandbox style game, where are open to do what makes them happen in any way that makes them happy.
With that said.
"Those that prefer to find their own fun" and "Those that prefer to follow an existing framework" pretty much encompases the entire population of gamers.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Idk if there's 1 game I could play until the end of time, and not get bored by it.
Themepark, enjoy the ride/story, get to the end, and if still interested start over.
Sandbox, enjoy creating your own ride/story, there is no end, but you may still get tired of carrying the weight of that on your shoulders all the time.
Jump around, scratch those itches, and if you find yourself twiddling your thumbs not being able to decide what to play, then walk away for awhile until those itches come back.
That's what I've been doing in 2019, and it's working out okay so far.
I'm not the same person now I was when I started sinking all my free time into certain games, so I've adapted when/where possible.
I'm still not in my sweet spot yet, and I'm still not sure how to tackle my gargantuan backlog that gets bigger every month!
Idk if there's 1 game I could play until the end of time, and not get bored by it.
Themepark, enjoy the ride/story, get to the end, and if still interested start over.
Sandbox, enjoy creating your own ride/story, there is no end, but you may still get tired of carrying the weight of that on your shoulders all the time.
Jump around, scratch those itches, and if you find yourself twiddling your thumbs not being able to decide what to play, then walk away for awhile until those itches come back.
That's what I've been doing in 2019, and it's working out okay so far.
I'm not the same person now I was when I started sinking all my free time into certain games, so I've adapted when/where possible.
I'm still not in my sweet spot yet, and I'm still not sure how to tackle my gargantuan backlog that gets bigger every month!
Gut Out!
Same. As much as I loved SWG in the old days, during the precu right before CU hit I was beginning to get bored, I would have left anyways. Even now playing the emu is like visiting a museum for the afternoon; sure it's cool but I don't want to live there. I think what delete5230 really needs is a time machine and memory wipe lol.
The linear nature of MMO theme parks is both their strength and weakness. Theme parks provide focus, a framework to hang quests and themes on. They also result in a repetitive experience, one that lacks meaningful choice. In theme parks your story is replaced by the games story.
The best MMO anyone could make would take a mixture of both types of MMO. You would have to separate the areas where they take place. So a central theme park set of nations, surrounded by a sand box wilderness is one way to do that.
I am not sure what future there could be for purely sandbox MMOs now, the survival genre seems to have supplanted them. There is sandbox elements in those games of course, so if you want to try out sandbox the likes of Conan Exiles may be for you. But they are a pale imitation of what sandbox could be.
Per your middle paragraph, Scot... That wouldn't really work. Themepark players expect to run through their scripted content and get their gear and levels, and the big power gains that they expect. Because that's what they play for, those power gains. But as soon as a game does that, then the Sandbox freedom to "go anywhere" (which doesn't exactly mean that completely as you still need advancement) goes away due to the extremes of power gaps and the need for content zones. Without that exciting power boost, Themepark gamers would quit before they complete that zone. Or raise such a stink that the game company would regret their actions.
What I would do is add the quests in this central area, just like Themeparks, but without the power gaps and with the explanation that it's different, and low power gaps. I would treat it as a long tutorial. I would put in content that's designed to show the players how "Sandbox" works. And I would add discoveries that entice the players into wanting to explore the world beyond. I'd use a lot of information in those early Quests, riddles and keys waiting to be used in their new adventures. Things like large floor maps or tapestries of the larger world to reveal what's out there, treasure maps, discovery of words of power that will open sealed portals when found, relics tied to the outside world of discovery (keys), hints to riches, unknown monsters, etc.
And then, of course, I'd have a whole bunch more waiting for them out there in the open world. A lot of surprises. And the threat of great evils.
A lot of good ideas, I don't know if my idea of having theme park and sandbox in the same game would ever work. But sandbox is a great way of dealing with the problems of end game.
What would probably happen is the players would divide into two camps, one staying in the central theme park region and the other in the sandbox wilderness. Which would not be the idea at all.
You could make those central regions the only place where you could get levelling xp and the wilderness regions the only place you could get crafting and PvP xp. They would have to be good gameplay reasons for players to want to frequent both areas.
I really don't think the two can mix. Yes, you can have a Themepark with Sandbox elements, or the other way around, but those games are still one or the other at their core. And they PLAY that way, as their core game. There are too many conflicting elements for the two to be made in one game equally as you are wondering about. To make them mesh is to cause what would otherwise conflict to be a lesser version from either game style singly. And that hurts the game overall.
Idk if there's 1 game I could play until the end of time, and not get bored by it.
Themepark, enjoy the ride/story, get to the end, and if still interested start over.
Sandbox, enjoy creating your own ride/story, there is no end, but you may still get tired of carrying the weight of that on your shoulders all the time.
Jump around, scratch those itches, and if you find yourself twiddling your thumbs not being able to decide what to play, then walk away for awhile until those itches come back.
That's what I've been doing in 2019, and it's working out okay so far.
I'm not the same person now I was when I started sinking all my free time into certain games, so I've adapted when/where possible.
I'm still not in my sweet spot yet, and I'm still not sure how to tackle my gargantuan backlog that gets bigger every month!
Gut Out!
Same. As much as I loved SWG in the old days, during the precu right before CU hit I was beginning to get bored, I would have left anyways. Even now playing the emu is like visiting a museum for the afternoon; sure it's cool but I don't want to live there. I think what delete5230 really needs is a time machine and memory wipe lol.
It sounds to me like the both of you have never found a game that you actually wanted to stay in forever. (I know that forever is a long time, lol.) But my question to each of you, Tiller and Gutlard, is... - Don't you ever dream of that? Do you have an idea of what that game would look like?
If your answer is "no", then you're probably in the majority, I'm guessing. Just curious.
Idk if there's 1 game I could play until the end of time, and not get bored by it.
Themepark, enjoy the ride/story, get to the end, and if still interested start over.
Sandbox, enjoy creating your own ride/story, there is no end, but you may still get tired of carrying the weight of that on your shoulders all the time.
Jump around, scratch those itches, and if you find yourself twiddling your thumbs not being able to decide what to play, then walk away for awhile until those itches come back.
That's what I've been doing in 2019, and it's working out okay so far.
I'm not the same person now I was when I started sinking all my free time into certain games, so I've adapted when/where possible.
I'm still not in my sweet spot yet, and I'm still not sure how to tackle my gargantuan backlog that gets bigger every month!
Gut Out!
Same. As much as I loved SWG in the old days, during the precu right before CU hit I was beginning to get bored, I would have left anyways. Even now playing the emu is like visiting a museum for the afternoon; sure it's cool but I don't want to live there. I think what delete5230 really needs is a time machine and memory wipe lol.
It sounds to me like the both of you have never found a game that you actually wanted to stay in forever. (I know that forever is a long time, lol.) But my question to each of you, Tiller and Gutlard, is... - Don't you ever dream of that? Do you have an idea of what that game would look like?
If your answer is "no", then you're probably in the majority, I'm guessing. Just curious.
Oh yeah I do, i got a huge wish list. Honestly if ever there was a worldy Star Wars MMO created were you could pretty much live in, part sandbox, part simulation, part themepark, atmospheric flight, open world galaxy ect I would play that for the rest of my years. Actually Beyond Good and Evil is somewhat heading that direction, but it's not Star Wars.
Idk if there's 1 game I could play until the end of time, and not get bored by it.
Themepark, enjoy the ride/story, get to the end, and if still interested start over.
Sandbox, enjoy creating your own ride/story, there is no end, but you may still get tired of carrying the weight of that on your shoulders all the time.
Jump around, scratch those itches, and if you find yourself twiddling your thumbs not being able to decide what to play, then walk away for awhile until those itches come back.
That's what I've been doing in 2019, and it's working out okay so far.
I'm not the same person now I was when I started sinking all my free time into certain games, so I've adapted when/where possible.
I'm still not in my sweet spot yet, and I'm still not sure how to tackle my gargantuan backlog that gets bigger every month!
Gut Out!
Same. As much as I loved SWG in the old days, during the precu right before CU hit I was beginning to get bored, I would have left anyways. Even now playing the emu is like visiting a museum for the afternoon; sure it's cool but I don't want to live there. I think what delete5230 really needs is a time machine and memory wipe lol.
It sounds to me like the both of you have never found a game that you actually wanted to stay in forever. (I know that forever is a long time, lol.) But my question to each of you, Tiller and Gutlard, is... - Don't you ever dream of that? Do you have an idea of what that game would look like?
If your answer is "no", then you're probably in the majority, I'm guessing. Just curious.
Oh yeah I do, i got a huge wish list. Honestly if ever there was a worldy Star Wars MMO created were you could pretty much live in, part sandbox, part simulation, part themepark, atmospheric flight, open world galaxy ect I would play that for the rest of my years. Actually Beyond Good and Evil is somewhat heading that direction, but it's not Star Wars.
I'll have to look at Beyond Good and Evil sometime to see what you mean, but I'm glad you have an idea of exactly what you want. I'd play that game too, if it met my desires of Sandbox vs. Themepark (huge power gaps, mainly). I thought SWG failed in that regard, for me. But I loved much about that game.
When I first read Ready Player One it felt like Cline read my mind. I grew up in the '80's, so it had that going for it with all of those pop culture references, but The Oasis is what really hit home.
I thought that if there ever was a game world to live in, this would be the only one I could play forever.
If there could be a game that spanned a long enough time, from like cavemen through space travel, and there were enough deep/engaging mechanics, and the game engines were constantly being updated to stay as current as possible, and it rewarded hard work and exploration and risk, and it left it up to me to choose my own adventure, but never punished me for it, and it didn't care about themepark this or sandbox that, then yeah, I could find myself being happy there for a LONG time. Oh yeah, and def no P2W bs!
When I first read Ready Player One it felt like Cline read my mind. I grew up in the '80's, so it had that going for it with all of those pop culture references, but The Oasis is what really hit home.
I thought that if there ever was a game world to live in, this would be the only one I could play forever.
If there could be a game that spanned a long enough time, from like cavemen through space travel, and there were enough deep/engaging mechanics, and the game engines were constantly being updated to stay as current as possible, and it rewarded hard work and exploration and risk, and it left it up to me to choose my own adventure, but never punished me for it, and it didn't care about themepark this or sandbox that, then yeah, I could find myself being happy there for a LONG time. Oh yeah, and def no P2W bs!
Gut Out!
Gut, I'm not familiar with that, but again, I'm glad you have a definite opinion and desire. Hopefully, some day your dream can come true. The problem for all of us is that there are probably only so many dreams that can come true.
I totally agree with the PtW bs. I'm extreme on the issue, actually. I want everything to be "won" or earned in-game.
Comments
A lot of MMO's aren't really that linear. A few lock you in a starter zone but it usually take just a few hours to get out of there, or if you know your way around you can go anywhere to level. Most MMO's I play you are free to just pick a direction and adventure, never knowing exactly what you'll run into. A few areas are locked but usually not many.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
That wouldn't really work.
Themepark players expect to run through their scripted content and get their gear and levels, and the big power gains that they expect. Because that's what they play for, those power gains.
But as soon as a game does that, then the Sandbox freedom to "go anywhere"
(which doesn't exactly mean that completely as you still need advancement)
goes away due to the extremes of power gaps and the need for content zones.
Without that exciting power boost, Themepark gamers would quit before they complete that zone. Or raise such a stink that the game company would regret their actions.
What I would do is add the quests in this central area, just like Themeparks, but without the power gaps and with the explanation that it's different, and low power gaps.
I would treat it as a long tutorial.
I would put in content that's designed to show the players how "Sandbox" works.
And I would add discoveries that entice the players into wanting to explore the world beyond.
I'd use a lot of information in those early Quests, riddles and keys waiting to be used in their new adventures.
Things like large floor maps or tapestries of the larger world to reveal what's out there, treasure maps, discovery of words of power that will open sealed portals when found, relics tied to the outside world of discovery (keys), hints to riches, unknown monsters, etc.
And then, of course, I'd have a whole bunch more waiting for them out there in the open world. A lot of surprises. And the threat of great evils.
Once upon a time....
What would probably happen is the players would divide into two camps, one staying in the central theme park region and the other in the sandbox wilderness. Which would not be the idea at all.
You could make those central regions the only place where you could get levelling xp and the wilderness regions the only place you could get crafting and PvP xp. They would have to be good gameplay reasons for players to want to frequent both areas.
Now maybe some people need to be told where to go and what to do, through their entire game experience, These are called Theme Park games, the player will do as scripted, just like everyone else.
They either enjoy being on rails or they do not, that is their only choices, but this does not give the game meaning.
GW2, is more a hybrid model, where players can either follow the scripted story and enjoy the Theme Park aspects of the game, or run off and play it more Sandbox style game, where are open to do what makes them happen in any way that makes them happy.
With that said.
"Those that prefer to find their own fun" and "Those that prefer to follow an existing framework" pretty much encompases the entire population of gamers.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Themepark, enjoy the ride/story, get to the end, and if still interested start over.
Sandbox, enjoy creating your own ride/story, there is no end, but you may still get tired of carrying the weight of that on your shoulders all the time.
Jump around, scratch those itches, and if you find yourself twiddling your thumbs not being able to decide what to play, then walk away for awhile until those itches come back.
That's what I've been doing in 2019, and it's working out okay so far.
I'm not the same person now I was when I started sinking all my free time into certain games, so I've adapted when/where possible.
I'm still not in my sweet spot yet, and I'm still not sure how to tackle my gargantuan backlog that gets bigger every month!
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Yes, you can have a Themepark with Sandbox elements, or the other way around, but those games are still one or the other at their core. And they PLAY that way, as their core game.
There are too many conflicting elements for the two to be made in one game equally as you are wondering about. To make them mesh is to cause what would otherwise conflict to be a lesser version from either game style singly. And that hurts the game overall.
That's my thinking, anyways.
Once upon a time....
But my question to each of you, Tiller and Gutlard, is...
- Don't you ever dream of that? Do you have an idea of what that game would look like?
If your answer is "no", then you're probably in the majority, I'm guessing.
Just curious.
Once upon a time....
I'd play that game too, if it met my desires of Sandbox vs. Themepark (huge power gaps, mainly). I thought SWG failed in that regard, for me. But I loved much about that game.
Once upon a time....
When I first read Ready Player One it felt like Cline read my mind. I grew up in the '80's, so it had that going for it with all of those pop culture references, but The Oasis is what really hit home.
I thought that if there ever was a game world to live in, this would be the only one I could play forever.
If there could be a game that spanned a long enough time, from like cavemen through space travel, and there were enough deep/engaging mechanics, and the game engines were constantly being updated to stay as current as possible, and it rewarded hard work and exploration and risk, and it left it up to me to choose my own adventure, but never punished me for it, and it didn't care about themepark this or sandbox that, then yeah, I could find myself being happy there for a LONG time. Oh yeah, and def no P2W bs!
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Hopefully, some day your dream can come true.
The problem for all of us is that there are probably only so many dreams that can come true.
I totally agree with the PtW bs. I'm extreme on the issue, actually. I want everything to be "won" or earned in-game.
Once upon a time....
So far no progress on development, but donate $300 million to a kickstarter and I'll see what I can do.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Once upon a time....