It could definitely work. Levels and gear caps are ultimately just ways to introduce time-sinks to a game. Admittedly time-sinks are necessary for mmo's because a developer can't churn out content at the same speed players can play it.
We just need a developer to find a way to add time-sinks to a game that are still as engaging as the intermittent reward cycle of vertical progression.
Clearly a game with no vertical progression wouldn't be for everyone. As shown in some of the responses here some personality types respond best to that type of system. I think people who would find it most engaging would have shifted their expectations or be willing to. I think a desire to explore systems and the game world would probably be the main motivation for playing.
At some point, an MMORPG with no leveling simply becomes an RTS game. RPG and leveling have long been companions, as leveling is one of the cornerstones of progression. Progression is one element that helps people to connect with their characters. Really, who identifies with 'third axeman from the left'? I know I'd rather play 'Krodor Trollbane, Axeman of the Guards who is deathly afraid of spiders'.
You can progress without levels because in many cases levels mean nothing. Like I said before there are very few times you fight outside of your level range. Either its base line challenge all levels or someone dies in one hit.
If you had a game where things where content divided by quest chains to move on to the next. No levels at all. Everything beyond you quest chain area killed you and everything below you one shot. You wouldn't play any different. That's because it's all a numbers game.
The concept of no levels can be done through alternative means of leveling like skills or horizontal progression that work almost like action adventures. You get new abilities and powers through quest and gear as you play. You just don't get power levels over 9000.
For example you get warrior armor that makes you harder to kill or assasin armor that makes you harder too see. You get items that allow you go access areas previously off limits like a weightless ring that allows you to go to the cloud realm.
You also can have right of passages quest for classes. Instead of getting fireball at level 12 you do a class quest that you earn the right to cast fireball and learn when to use it.
While this doesnt have to happen it usually does... challenge is skill based because there are little options to do otherwise. You will have weak creatures and strong ones. There are no levels to decide. Raid level content would always be raid level content.
Your character will progress along with your skill to make the challenge a lot easier. You will not be immortal to the 900 pound Ogre swinging a club just because you leveled up. You may be able to easily dodge slow attacks and counter with abilities but you would die if AFK or extremely sloppy.
Could this work? Like if a player was placed in the world at max level and gear was all cosmetic. Personally tired of leveling in MMOs and would rather have a game with MMO like combat where I can log in and PvP without being stuck behind XP, and or, gear walls walls every time I wanna try something new. Leveling really doesn't do much for me. I don't like my character anymore just because I leveled them.
I think it would be cool to have an open world MMO with no leveling. Just log in and do what you want without worrying about power levels.
They have those already. They're called lobby games.
Honestly, you can do 95% of themepark games in co-op RPG. Does that mean you should play co-op RPG?
I prefer to level. It slowly introduces you to your skills and abilities. I've left games for years and had to create a new character to help remember the basics.
Some games do offer top level characters included with expansions or for sale in a cash shop but the problem is often like jumping into the deep end of the pool and having to learn what all your skills and abilities are suppose to do.
So even without levels you would still have to learn and practice your skills from the ground up.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I prefer to level. It slowly introduces you to your skills and abilities. I've left games for years and had to create a new character to help remember the basics.
Some games do offer top level characters included with expansions or for sale in a cash shop but the problem is often like jumping into the deep end of the pool and having to learn what all your skills and abilities are suppose to do.
So even without levels you would still have to learn and practice your skills from the ground up.
Optional tutorials could fix some of those concerns maybe. Without levels or gear scores there would be no 'max level' characters for a game to sell people or give away so the main issue would just be becoming familiar with an avatar you haven't played in a while.
I never played it but isnt Secret World toted as a MMO with no leveling
No. There is an illusion of no-leveling, but you have to fill the exp bar to progress your character and get skillpoints. You just don't see the "levels".
Skills getting stronger are levels. Aquiring new skills is a form of leveling (getting 1 then 2 then 3...). Gear making you stronger is a level.
Not the same thing. If 3 newbies beat on you at 15 damage each and you have the same 100 hp from the start you can die. If new has 40 hp and hits for 20 while you have 20 million hp and only get 1 damage per hit... it is a big difference
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Skills getting stronger are levels. Aquiring new skills is a form of leveling (getting 1 then 2 then 3...). Gear making you stronger is a level.
Not the same thing. If 3 newbies beat on you at 15 damage each and you have the same 100 hp from the start you can die. If new has 40 hp and hits for 20 while you have 20 million hp and only get 1 damage per hit... it is a big difference
The OP said no leveling at all of any kind
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
BR is a match. What is the connection between BR and a MMORPG? I am not sure. Because it lacks levels it would lack content, persistent world and other trappings of MMORPG? Is it a limited understanding of the concept levelless MMORPG? Not trying to be rude but it is a drastic left field suggestion. Just because it lacks levels it would
MMOs need one of the two things at minimum: leveling or kingdom building sometimes just fine adventure might compensate for these but it's not sustainable in the long run by itself imo 1000 vs1000 players easily becomes an mmo battleground but not an MMORPG
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball?
Pass.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball?
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball?
Pass.
I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball?
Pass.
I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.
Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)
Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball?
Pass.
I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.
Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)
Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.
I think it goes back to "why do we play."
I've been thinking about itemization a lot recently as I've been putting in the "quest" materials/items in my skyrim mod (which is several months overdue ) and while I enjoy getting cool new things/upgrades, definitely leveling, I don't just play to level or play to get new things.
It also goes back to the idea of mmorpg as game vs mmorpg as world.
Theme Park mmorpg's are constantly giving crap, whether you like it or not. In Lord of the Rings Online I am constantly getting "rewards" that I just don't use. I sell it for 2 silver 45 copper and I'm done with it.
I think regardless of "rewards" people need to find what they are doing fun or engaging or at least having meaning.
when in Lineage 2 I spent a good part of a Saturday doing a kill quest over and over because the money was good, it wasn't really a grind to me. I needed Adena, there was a quest (actually a few in the area) and doing them over and over allowed me to buy a new staff. Wasn't an issue and I got a brand new D grade staff hot damn.
But that in a sense is a bit more "world." There are ways of making money, you want something?; then do it!
With other games they have more "rides" more immediately fun stuff so that playing is definitely a reward in itself. At least up until the point that doing it more than a few times just isn't fun anymore.
So, in this non-leveling mmorpg, is there enough varied content to last until the next infusion of varied content or do players play it obsessively until they drop the game after a week until it gets the next update?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
There would still be rewards like mounts, pets, cosmetic gear, maybe temp buffs, just no epeen massaging rewards like bigger numbers. Imagine if you had a pool of abilities and attributes you could choose from and those made your character. That way you still get to customize your character, just without the wasted bar filling time.
Vast power gaps don't belong in games with PvP.
So I complete a quest, kill 100 orcs, and run a dungeon, all to get a foldable beach chair, a colorful umbrella, and a hacky sac ball?
Pass.
I imagine you wouldn't be killing 100 orcs in this example.
Perhaps collect 100 cute stuffed plush animals? (Using no kill, no harm capture techniques of course)
Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.
I think it goes back to "why do we play."
I've been thinking about itemization a lot recently as I've been putting in the "quest" materials/items in my skyrim mod (which is several months overdue ) and while I enjoy getting cool new things/upgrades, definitely leveling, I don't just play to level or play to get new things.
It also goes back to the idea of mmorpg as game vs mmorpg as world.
Theme Park mmorpg's are constantly giving crap, whether you like it or not. In Lord of the Rings Online I am constantly getting "rewards" that I just don't use. I sell it for 2 silver 45 copper and I'm done with it.
I think regardless of "rewards" people need to find what they are doing fun or engaging or at least having meaning.
when in Lineage 2 I spent a good part of a Saturday doing a kill quest over and over because the money was good, it wasn't really a grind to me. I needed Adena, there was a quest (actually a few in the area) and doing them over and over allowed me to buy a new staff. Wasn't an issue and I got a brand new D grade staff hot damn.
But that in a sense is a bit more "world." There are ways of making money, you want something?; then do it!
With other games they have more "rides" more immediately fun stuff so that playing is definitely a reward in itself. At least up until the point that doing it more than a few times just isn't fun anymore.
So, in this non-leveling mmorpg, is there enough varied content to last until the next infusion of varied content or do players play it obsessively until they drop the game after a week until it gets the next update?
Seems there have been two options. Make MMORPG fun in their own right or trigger addictive psychological responses that want you to grind even if the action isn't fun + offer cash shop items to those who reject the matrix.
Comments
View more silliness at http://www.youtube.com/thehiveleader
We just need a developer to find a way to add time-sinks to a game that are still as engaging as the intermittent reward cycle of vertical progression.
Clearly a game with no vertical progression wouldn't be for everyone. As shown in some of the responses here some personality types respond best to that type of system. I think people who would find it most engaging would have shifted their expectations or be willing to. I think a desire to explore systems and the game world would probably be the main motivation for playing.
If you had a game where things where content divided by quest chains to move on to the next. No levels at all. Everything beyond you quest chain area killed you and everything below you one shot. You wouldn't play any different. That's because it's all a numbers game.
The concept of no levels can be done through alternative means of leveling like skills or horizontal progression that work almost like action adventures. You get new abilities and powers through quest and gear as you play. You just don't get power levels over 9000.
For example you get warrior armor that makes you harder to kill or assasin armor that makes you harder too see. You get items that allow you go access areas previously off limits like a weightless ring that allows you to go to the cloud realm.
You also can have right of passages quest for classes. Instead of getting fireball at level 12 you do a class quest that you earn the right to cast fireball and learn when to use it.
While this doesnt have to happen it usually does... challenge is skill based because there are little options to do otherwise. You will have weak creatures and strong ones. There are no levels to decide. Raid level content would always be raid level content.
Your character will progress along with your skill to make the challenge a lot easier. You will not be immortal to the 900 pound Ogre swinging a club just because you leveled up. You may be able to easily dodge slow attacks and counter with abilities but you would die if AFK or extremely sloppy.
Some games do offer top level characters included with expansions or for sale in a cash shop but the problem is often like jumping into the deep end of the pool and having to learn what all your skills and abilities are suppose to do.
So even without levels you would still have to learn and practice your skills from the ground up.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
sometimes just fine adventure might compensate for these but it's not sustainable in the long run by itself imo
1000 vs1000 players easily becomes an mmo battleground but not an MMORPG
Pass.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Bonus rewards for releasing them back into the wild.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've been thinking about itemization a lot recently as I've been putting in the "quest" materials/items in my skyrim mod (which is several months overdue
It also goes back to the idea of mmorpg as game vs mmorpg as world.
Theme Park mmorpg's are constantly giving crap, whether you like it or not. In Lord of the Rings Online I am constantly getting "rewards" that I just don't use. I sell it for 2 silver 45 copper and I'm done with it.
I think regardless of "rewards" people need to find what they are doing fun or engaging or at least having meaning.
when in Lineage 2 I spent a good part of a Saturday doing a kill quest over and over because the money was good, it wasn't really a grind to me. I needed Adena, there was a quest (actually a few in the area) and doing them over and over allowed me to buy a new staff. Wasn't an issue and I got a brand new D grade staff hot damn.
But that in a sense is a bit more "world." There are ways of making money, you want something?; then do it!
With other games they have more "rides" more immediately fun stuff so that playing is definitely a reward in itself. At least up until the point that doing it more than a few times just isn't fun anymore.
So, in this non-leveling mmorpg, is there enough varied content to last until the next infusion of varied content or do players play it obsessively until they drop the game after a week until it gets the next update?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo