Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena. You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.
How?
I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.
Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking.
Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress.
Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.
1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.
2) You beat the game and thus, won.
Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.
So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character? Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression. You still had things to do.
And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left. Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.
Bullshit. Adventure had gear progression. You adventured to find better gear to go deeper. Have you played these games you're citing?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.
"A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest. Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the scenes."
A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?
Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.
If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious? I mean you see other players running by. He is turning in quest. He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes. Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it?
You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
Horizontal progression still has progression. Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.
It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression." Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it. I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.
For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it. But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.
Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
That is ok, it wouldn't be for you. I'm sure there are game designers out there that could make it appealing to people who can see beyond vertical progression.
This is just tiring. Everyone can agree it is possible, I hear loud and clear it wouldn't interest everyone. Nothing is being taken away from you all, WoW will still be the same when you wake up tomorrow. Game developers will keep ticking all the same boxes and we'll pretend we are puzzled that we keep getting the same games.
I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not. The game start at max level anyway. And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
Point of order, for most MMOs, max level, aka endgame is when I quit playing them.
With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.
"A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest. Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the scenes."
A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?
Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.
If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious? I mean you see other players running by. He is turning in quest. He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes. Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it?
You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
Horizontal progression still has progression. Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.
It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression." Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it. I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.
For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it. But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.
IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.
You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.
The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."
The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not. The game start at max level anyway. And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
Point of order, for most MMOs, max level, aka endgame is when I quit playing them.
With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.
I don't quit until a bit after that: that's what alts are for.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
My first reaction was to say no thanks not interested in a game without any progression at all Viet character or skill or gear whatever. However when I looked back at some games I had a lot of fun with games really old to be sure more action type games such as Master blaster or other old arcade/system games. How this would translate into an MMO and still keep the RPG I don't know.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.
"A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest. Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the scenes."
A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?
Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.
If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious? I mean you see other players running by. He is turning in quest. He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes. Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it?
You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
Horizontal progression still has progression. Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.
It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression." Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it. I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.
For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it. But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.
IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.
You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.
The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."
The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
You've got a good point, but I'd say that it's not really about "gear score." I think it's about "Power Gaps."
Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
This is interesting. I like when people have hard standards and disregard games that do not meet them. I won't play a game that doesn't have a decent character development system, but I absolutely hate games with no caps that otherwise have interesting chardev. For instance games like Runescape or that real money economy game where you can increase all skills to max. To me these games have no character builds since every max out character is exactly the same. Or, more usually a game has such a lite, or cookie cutter chardev system every max level class is exactly the same. I want a system where I can learn it, and try to exploit it by doing weird shit and coming up with really weird builds.
This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.
Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity? Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends. What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
This is interesting. I like when people have hard standards and disregard games that do not meet them. I won't play a game that doesn't have a decent character development system, but I absolutely hate games with no caps that otherwise have interesting chardev. For instance games like Runescape or that real money economy game where you can increase all skills to max. To me these games have no character builds since every max out character is exactly the same. Or, more usually a game has such a lite, or cookie cutter chardev system every max level class is exactly the same. I want a system where I can learn it, and try to exploit it by doing weird shit and coming up with really weird builds.
This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.
Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity? Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends. What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
I especially like unusual builds when they are harder to play, but are very rewarding in playing them, when you get it right. In a fun factor sort of way.
I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.
"A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest. Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the scenes."
A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?
Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.
If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious? I mean you see other players running by. He is turning in quest. He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes. Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it?
You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
Horizontal progression still has progression. Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.
It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression." Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it. I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.
For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it. But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.
IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.
You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.
The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."
The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
Gear scores and item levels are vertical progression, along with levels. There are plenty of sources on the internet defining this. You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
I'd love to hear some examples from you of a "horizontal progression sandbox" with special emphasis on explaining the progression part. No vertical allowed now.
"A mage fireballs 10 wolves to death and returns to quest giver and finishes the quest. Is this MMORPG levelless, horizontal progression or vertical progression with 100 levels? The character could complete the whole quest hub and you still couldn't tell without knowing the mechanics behind the scenes."
A snapshot without context is meaningless. Just like your no level idea. Is that why you play games? To kill 10 wolves now and 500 hours into the game?
Personally I play to kill one wolf and later on, when I've progressed to kill 100 wolves.
If it's not a MMORPG why wouldn't you be able to tell? Wouldn't a battle royale or battle arena or whatever be dead obvious? I mean you see other players running by. He is turning in quest. He runs a dungeon with 8 other players of various classes. Again if it's not a MMORPG by your definitiom wouldn't you be able to tell after running a whole questhub and dungeon without seeing the numbers behind it?
You still didn't specify exactly how much progression qualifies a game as a MMORPG.
Still waiting for that "horizontal progression sandbox" example of progression.
Horizontal progression still has progression. Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.
It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression." Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it. I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.
For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it. But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.
IMO, "horizontal progression" is a nonsensical made up name to simply mean "something other than levels." Progression by definition implies going up so it's always vertical.
You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.
The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."
The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
Horizontal progression does have shallow vertical progression. The purpose of horizontal progression is to not have power gaps. So while you may get better armor, new abilities and etc. you are still are able to participate with veterans. In PvP you can defend yourself against vet and in small groups overcome a vet. You don't have 20 million HP while a newbie has 20.
I honestly don't think it matters if mmorpg have level or not. The game start at max level anyway. And the leveling phase is just extended tutorial which can be skipped, that is why many game give you a max character if you buy the expansion or let you pay for it.
Point of order, for most MMOs, max level, aka endgame is when I quit playing them.
With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.
Maybe that says a lot about the content more so than progression. I fully enjoyed the first season of the Walking Dead game and wasn't leveling up killing 10 wolves to enjoy the content.
Again, how does lack of character progression stop you from doing quest, dungeons or raids? Never got the answer.
It doesn't. The boredom of no progression has me not even buying the game in the first place.
This is interesting. I like when people have hard standards and disregard games that do not meet them. I won't play a game that doesn't have a decent character development system, but I absolutely hate games with no caps that otherwise have interesting chardev. For instance games like Runescape or that real money economy game where you can increase all skills to max. To me these games have no character builds since every max out character is exactly the same. Or, more usually a game has such a lite, or cookie cutter chardev system every max level class is exactly the same. I want a system where I can learn it, and try to exploit it by doing weird shit and coming up with really weird builds.
This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.
Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity? Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends. What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
Not really. Progression is a broad, general term, not anything specific, like good stories or lore, fun combat (which differs for everyone who says "fun"), or character skill vs player skill in games. When progression ends, like at the end of the game, I either roll a new character or go to another game.
I have played games where progression is minimal, but not RPGs. Doom, Quake, Hexen and Heretic were all fun games. Minimal progression there.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Why does a lack of progression mean PVP Arena. You can do anything in a levelless MMORPG as you could in a leveled one from quest to raids.
How?
I mean really, everything would become homogenized, and if it was as you put it, "Skill based" again.. if you don't have the skills to be good at a PvP game, would not have the skills to be good at a PvE one, as the PvE content designed to challenge players would be for the people that had the twitch skill to kick your ass all over the place in a PvP game, so you would still be stuck at shit bottom, in either case.
Just in a Grind Based MMORPG, you are allowed the illusion of progression.. in a skill based one, just like a PvP Arena game, you would be forever stuck at sucking.
Um the same way you do stuff end game when you no longer can progress.
Not being able to progress means one of 2 things.
1) You have reached the cap your skill, and the rest of the game is simply beyond your abilities.
2) You beat the game and thus, won.
Both end the same way.. you end up playing something else.
So every action adventure in existence had nothing to do because you don't progress the character? Adventure the 8 bit Atari 2600 game absolutely no character progression. You still had things to do.
And no in MMORPG you can enjoy the virtual world your guild and hunting even if you don't have any character progression left. Nothing stops you from completing quest, dungeons or raids even if you aren't progressing your character even if you were levelless.
Bullshit. Adventure had gear progression. You adventured to find better gear to go deeper. Have you played these games you're citing?
Aenghas said: You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.
That's what progress means - movement forward. It is incremental, one way and direction only.
It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.
You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
Aenghas said: You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.
That's what progress means - movement forward. It is incremental, one way and direction only.
It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.
You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.
Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.
None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Aenghas said: You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.
That's what progress means - movement forward. It is incremental, one way and direction only.
It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.
You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.
Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.
None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
I said all the way back on page 7 a game without levels would still have progression...horizontal progression. Did someone else talk about a game without levels having zero progression? I may have missed it in a wall of text.
Meanwhile, some people seem to be wrestling with what vertical and horizontal progression entail, when they are fairly well defined concepts with a history in game design.
Aenghas said: You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.
That's what progress means - movement forward. It is incremental, one way and direction only.
It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.
You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.
Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.
None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
Horizontal is shallow vertical progression. The point is to not have power by having power platforms like levels which multiple numbers and sometimes artificial barriers. Your level 70 wizard can defeat a prior max level fighter in epics... while naked and unarmed in melee because you have two new expansions packs
It makes the gameplay more grounded and content more common sense. No common wolf from an new expansion pack being able to solo the whole 3 expansion prior raid with an extinction crisis characters in it.
Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
...oh, that's next thing you are also "sure" about, right?
At some point, an MMORPG with no leveling simply becomes an RTS game. RPG and leveling have long been companions, as leveling is one of the cornerstones of progression. Progression is one element that helps people to connect with their characters. Really, who identifies with 'third axeman from the left'? I know I'd rather play 'Krodor Trollbane, Axeman of the Guards who is deathly afraid of spiders'.
Cornerstone, but not in it’s current state. The leveling systems of today are mockery of the original rpg systems were.
Every piece of gear is outdated every level. Silly as you get if you ask me.
Aenghas said: You have just outlined the subtler forms of vertical progression, not defined what horizontal progression is.
No, he indeed rebutted horizontal progression nonsense.
That's what progress means - movement forward. It is incremental, one way and direction only.
It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.
You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
Do some research. Feel free to link some established definitions of horizontal progression on here for me. You seem to have little self awareness, defining things arbitrarily with no respect for established precedent and context then accusing others of it.
Really, the key word in this "worshipped term" is progression. Horizontal progression is still progression, not some "idea" where players stay static from the time they start the game.
Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.
None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
A game that comes to mind with this discussion that would provide you a real game example of what is being put out, would be game like Second Life. The Whole game is pretty much a social sandbox, which, make no mistake is really cool in it's own right. (There are other games like Habbo hotel, Furcadia, and others along those lines, but, to be honest, Second Life is one of the more MMO-esque style games that provides this mystical Progression-less gameplay, that I think we as MMORPG gamers would understand and appreciate)
I mean, there is an accumulation of wealth, and buying land, but, the wealth or even land ownership does not give you an progression, it is simply a trade good.
Edit Added: I have no idea how Entropia Universe works, but that might be another example of what they are thinking about when they talk about a Level-less or Progression-less game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Well, depending on who builds it and how they do it. I guess a game could be made with no progression coded in at all, only player skill.
It brings up the question of what exactly is "horizontal progression."
Because that term includes "progression" so there must be some form of it.
I think this is yet another misnomer that can be debated over and over.
For me, I'd prefer to use "Horizontal progression" to mean sideways progression, in that you gain new skills, attacks, etc. This in itself makes a player better, so there is a vertical aspect to it.
But it's also different than purely vertical progression where the numbers rise as the main point.
Once upon a time....
This is just tiring. Everyone can agree it is possible, I hear loud and clear it wouldn't interest everyone. Nothing is being taken away from you all, WoW will still be the same when you wake up tomorrow. Game developers will keep ticking all the same boxes and we'll pretend we are puzzled that we keep getting the same games.
With no actual character progression outside of endless gear grinding there just isn't any point anymore.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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You have no levels but you craft a better axe that chops trees faster? That's vertical and is just a replacement for unlocking a higher level of "tree chopping". You skin animals and craft new clothes that protects you more? That's also vertical.
The point I and others are making in this thread is that removing levels and having this thing some call "horizontal progression" is nothing more than replacing level progression with a different kind of vertical progression that either implicitly or explicitly is based on "gear score."
The purpose of themeparks and sandbox alike as well as survival games is still to get better by crafting, finding better equipment or whatver other progression scheme the developer makes. If you replace levels with "gear score" you're still leveling and progressing just with a different name that might fool those not paying attention into thinking that they've removed levels - they haven't, they're just hidden.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think it's about "Power Gaps."
Once upon a time....
This means my build has to be realized and at some point there the progression has to stop.
Do you have other requirements like a game needs a decent character development system with some meat, choices, and complexity? Or does that not matter when you stop playing when progression ends. What do you think of Alternate Advancement systems like in Rift, EQ2, and Neverwinter Online?
In a fun factor sort of way.
Once upon a time....
There are not, apparently.
That's what progress means - movement forward. It is incremental, one way and direction only.
It is a term, just like P2W, that was invented in an attempt so people don't look like stupids.
You guys are just throwing terms, words, "ideas" around with no supportive rationale, it only makes sense in your messed up heads.
I have played games where progression is minimal, but not RPGs. Doom, Quake, Hexen and Heretic were all fun games. Minimal progression there.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Even going through stories or quests, a player progresses from chapter to chapter. City building progresses from one tent to stone buildings everywhere with new people moving in. Many PvP games have players progress through the ranks, trying to be number 1. Gear races progress from cloth to leather to metal armor or wooden weapons to metal weapons, melee to range. Exploration progresses from one area to the next.
None of these involve level or skill progression, so what exactly IS this "progressionless" horizontal progression? On this board, this term is being used as an "alternative" to progression, when it is not.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Meanwhile, some people seem to be wrestling with what vertical and horizontal progression entail, when they are fairly well defined concepts with a history in game design.
It makes the gameplay more grounded and content more common sense. No common wolf from an new expansion pack being able to solo the whole 3 expansion prior raid with an extinction crisis characters in it.
Every piece of gear is outdated every level. Silly as you get if you ask me.
I mean, there is an accumulation of wealth, and buying land, but, the wealth or even land ownership does not give you an progression, it is simply a trade good.
Edit Added: I have no idea how Entropia Universe works, but that might be another example of what they are thinking about when they talk about a Level-less or Progression-less game.