Yeah its always seemed weird to attack mobs, especially intelligent humanoid ones, and see their buddies standing a few feet away seemingly unconcerned, or possibly embarrassed. Its like they are thinking "Oh no! Someone is killing Bob ... well best not to get involved I say."
If you listen very carefully they are saying "Sux 2 B U Bob."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Not a MMO, but you made me thing about best MOB AI I've encountered while playing games. I must say that Diablo 3 MOB's AI is one of the best, especially the Elites. They are using skills, moves and acts based on your actions and skills you are using. Sure, it's still scripting ( everything is ) , but they are far superior then any Online games I've played.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah its always seemed weird to attack mobs, especially intelligent humanoid ones, and see their buddies standing a few feet away seemingly unconcerned, or possibly embarrassed. Its like they are thinking "Oh no! Someone is killing Bob ... well best not to get involved I say."
It's the bystander effect. They're all standing around expecting someone else to jump in and save Bob. You see it all the time in real life as crowds stand around watching an assault or abduction thinking "somebody should do something!"
Mostly because A.I. is a very time consuming and costly process. Most games just use flow charting which is labor intensive which equals larger budgetary requirements. More advanced A.I. can use things like Finite State Machines with flow charting or others may use blackboard A.I. (using sub A.I.) Forza uses an adaptive A.I. system that creates a simulation that is pretty convincing.
What I have proposed to a couple of people in the industry (including one currently building an mmorpg) is to go with an A.I. director for an mmo. The way L4D or Far Cry handles A.I. is 'good enough' for most players in a genre like the mmorpg. It would expand the mob behavior beyond what the players in the genre have seen in the past and handle the flow and intensity of moment to moment gameplay associated with combat encounters. Another option is to combine FSM with a director and program boss encounters to be more like the Alien in the Isolation game. One that hunts and stalks you through a dungeon or catacomb. There are a number of ways that A.I. can be used to create the illusion of a nonstatic world but it takes time,creativity and,well, non artificial intelligence.
One of the issues with the genre is that no one has invested in actually improving the AI. Every new game that comes along just builds the basic responses without adding anything new. I'd be beyond happy if the AI-controlled mobs recognized certain player tactics, like kiting, and started taunting the PCs. That probably wouldn't require anything as elaborate as a finite state machine to implement. People losing whine and complain, why can't gnoll_0307818?
I think that enemy AI has deteriorated. In EQ (1997), Orc Shamans blinded and feared us players. Nothing like having your screen go totally black or running uncontrollably away into a new set of enemies
Many others have pointed out that this is not what players desire, though. They want an easy walk to "end game" and then complain about the "grind of leveling." Well... DUH! If a player had to actually think about each fight, maybe leveling would be less "grindy?"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Makes sense as many gamers these days lack the fortitude to deal with NPC AI which might actually beat them on a regular basis.
...nothing to do with that.
The design simply shifted away from grinding mobs over and over in order to level up, thus there is no point in having complex AI.
While it pains me greatly to write this....good answer, and it really does make sense. Weird.
Is there a solar eclipse happening today or something?
I think... Hell just froze over!
Sometimes, though, he does have some insightful posts, when he's not doubled over giggling incessantly at everyone he disagrees with
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You guys haven't played TD2. Their AIs give you a good run for your money. They're scripted to play just like regular players.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
However, this time I feel like he has sparked a discussion that needs to be had. Maybe not by us, but it is a very relevant question he asks. You should not just dismiss him out of hand on everything he says. On this topic, I support him and applaud his effort.
I believe it would be awesome to have reactive AI. Oh, shit! Bob is getting mangled over there, quick let's go help! As a player you see three more Gnolls starting to head your way. Makes ya react if nothing else.
It would be better if, as someone else pointed out, combat were meaningful and had an effect beyond the limited time you would be spending in said zone. Which points to another thread currently active here, why have levels? Note* I did not say do away with progress, I said levels.
The point I think being made here, is there is a lot that could and probably should change about the formulas that go into making MMORPG games. The two topics mentioned here could be what changes that if a company were interested in something beyond cookie cutter MMO games.
Smarter AI and combat that has meaning beyond a quest reward.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
how about real people with better systems in place. You know, something doable.
Could you imagine how mind f#$%'ed some of these folks would be; getting "ganked" and it not be by a player they can run to forums to complain about?
Nah, I think it's that, most of these players want to BELIEVE they're overcoming some advanced challenge but never want the danger of really losing to one. They want the Westworld themepark, not the Westworld "Holy S#!T the NPCs are playing for keeps" open world.
Y'all might want smarter mobs, but you actually deserve the status quo. Continue to wait on your tanks to pull mobs one at a time praying they don't agro a whole room that's been watching you pick off their mates 1 at a time.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Static monsters are easier to balance -- you know how many are going to attack a PC. If monsters moved around it would be easier to split them off and fight fewer than intended or end up with more than intended.
how about real people with better systems in place. You know, something doable.
Could you imagine how mind f#$%'ed some of these folks would be; getting "ganked" and it not be by a player they can run to forums to complain about?
Nah, I think it's that, most of these players want to BELIEVE they're overcoming some advanced challenge but never want the danger of really losing to one. They want the Westworld themepark, not the Westworld "Holy S#!T the NPCs are playing for keeps" open world.
Y'all might want smarter mobs, but you actually deserve the status quo. Continue to wait on your tanks to pull mobs one at a time praying they don't agro a whole room that's been watching you pick off their mates 1 at a time.
People may claim to want smarter, more interesting AI, but fact is other players already provide it.
Thing is most still wish to be always able to eventually win, which can't be guaranteed against other humans.
Imagine how few people would play a game where the NPCs kicked their arses 90% of the time, which against humans is quite possible.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Makes sense as many gamers these days lack the fortitude to deal with NPC AI which might actually beat them on a regular basis.
...nothing to do with that.
The design simply shifted away from grinding mobs over and over in order to level up, thus there is no point in having complex AI.
While it pains me greatly to write this....good answer, and it really does make sense. Weird.
Is there a solar eclipse happening today or something?
I'm not buying it.
Even in quest hub games or just running dungeons to level 99% of what the player does is kill mobs over and over.
I'm going with your original assertion that people don't want to deal with it.
I cite the AI being more challenging in EverQuest and DAOC than newer games because they wanted to dumb it down and make it accessible for average Joe not because they masked the grind with quests or story and that made it pointless for them to make the AI harder.
It was all about accessibility not a design shift.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
For years I have said that this is the main reason for the imbalance issues created by having PvE and PvP mixed. Because most AI is so pathetic, the mobs have to scale to ridiculous heights regarding HP. Why does a human "boss" NPC have literally 100 times the HP of my fully trained and armored warrior/knight? Well, intellectually it makes zero sense... but it's because the AI in the game is horrendous.
The "boss" literally sat there while my group "pulled" his guards 1-2 at a time. That one time we agroed more we just ran a few feet and they went back to their spots, no more alert than they were before.
So to make up for that and provide "challenge" they give the NPC 100 times the HP. That means we need skills to do that much damage which of course are overpowered against other players...
If AI was more developed we should not need PvE or PvP servers because all should follow the same rules and it should really be hard to tell if you are fighting an NPC or a player...
This AI could even be tiered.. so in response to @Kyleran post above... you wouldn't need to get your ass kicked 90% of the time in the early game, but you better bring your "A" game later on when you are in a high level zone.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Unfortunately, to make things like this 'interesting' again, more class related roles would have to exist again which would lead to imbalance and the circle will begin again with forum QQs.
Mobs having interesting mechanics, such as different types of ways of aggroing/varying aggro ranges, being able to call/summon help during fights, being able to run away/cc certain roles in parties/etc, were countered by giving certain classes certain abilities like sleep/polymorph/silence/root/etc and for the most part they do exist in a lot of games. However, if you look at wow, how often do you realistically use those abilities aside from just skipping something?
In my mind, I would like to take things a bit further with mob AI, kind of like how Metal Gear games would work, like if a patrol saw a dead body/heard fighting/etc, it should put mobs in alert mode, maybe increasing how they run or causing a split if its a group to separately search the area when things were alerted. This would at least make players a bit more cautious on how they pull. WoW sort of tried to do this (again) with one of its mythic+ seasonal affixes (I've done forgot the name now), but honestly, it should be implemented at early levels of the game and then become baseline. It also ties into another problem that has been happening in most mmorpgs of the past decade of players only having to learn how to play their class once they hit cap.
Another thing I feel is lacking in modern games is the need to prepare for stuff. The only time you'll really see people having a wide variety of stuff like potions/etc is in the highest tier content, which honestly affects the economy as well. If you needed a wide variety of stuff to engage leveling content with, it would increase economical health and actually make the in game's currency important again instead of just something to buy vanity with. You had to stuff like that alot in games like FFXI, like buying echo drops for silence if you were a magic user, buy reraise items/aggro prevention items/so-on.
Probably because it is one of the least things people complain about... If you actually went to the game forum, there are much more things people complain about... so developer decide to spend resource on more important issue.
Probably because it is one of the least things people complain about... If you actually went to the game forum, there are much more things people complain about... so developer decide to spend resource on more important issue.
What your talking about is Taping out the fires later on after a game is released. This is more of a base game decision of the original design, or worded differently the core feature. Putting out the fires and bugs comes later on and has nothing to do with the core of the game.
Anyone remember that post that WoW made about AI? And that mmorpg players don't really want it? They said it would be extremely simple to script bosses to go after the healers, etc, but no one would like it.
This is going a way back but my hands-down favorite boss fight was always in the last patch area of BC, kind of a blood elf area I think. The 5-man had a boss fight which was a 5-man team that mimicked a party you fight. I loved that fight. I could be remembering wrong, but didn't that fight have decent scripting? And didn't people complain about it? I could be remembering wrong.
Comments
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Is there a solar eclipse happening today or something?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Many others have pointed out that this is not what players desire, though. They want an easy walk to "end game" and then complain about the "grind of leveling." Well... DUH! If a player had to actually think about each fight, maybe leveling would be less "grindy?"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Sometimes, though, he does have some insightful posts, when he's not doubled over giggling incessantly at everyone he disagrees with
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, this time I feel like he has sparked a discussion that needs to be had. Maybe not by us, but it is a very relevant question he asks. You should not just dismiss him out of hand on everything he says. On this topic, I support him and applaud his effort.
I believe it would be awesome to have reactive AI. Oh, shit! Bob is getting mangled over there, quick let's go help! As a player you see three more Gnolls starting to head your way. Makes ya react if nothing else.
It would be better if, as someone else pointed out, combat were meaningful and had an effect beyond the limited time you would be spending in said zone. Which points to another thread currently active here, why have levels? Note* I did not say do away with progress, I said levels.
The point I think being made here, is there is a lot that could and probably should change about the formulas that go into making MMORPG games. The two topics mentioned here could be what changes that if a company were interested in something beyond cookie cutter MMO games.
Smarter AI and combat that has meaning beyond a quest reward.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
how about real people with better systems in place. You know, something doable.
Nah, I think it's that, most of these players want to BELIEVE they're overcoming some advanced challenge but never want the danger of really losing to one. They want the Westworld themepark, not the Westworld "Holy S#!T the NPCs are playing for keeps" open world.
Y'all might want smarter mobs, but you actually deserve the status quo. Continue to wait on your tanks to pull mobs one at a time praying they don't agro a whole room that's been watching you pick off their mates 1 at a time.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thing is most still wish to be always able to eventually win, which can't be guaranteed against other humans.
Imagine how few people would play a game where the NPCs kicked their arses 90% of the time, which against humans is quite possible.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/The "boss" literally sat there while my group "pulled" his guards 1-2 at a time. That one time we agroed more we just ran a few feet and they went back to their spots, no more alert than they were before.
So to make up for that and provide "challenge" they give the NPC 100 times the HP. That means we need skills to do that much damage which of course are overpowered against other players...
If AI was more developed we should not need PvE or PvP servers because all should follow the same rules and it should really be hard to tell if you are fighting an NPC or a player...
This AI could even be tiered.. so in response to @Kyleran post above... you wouldn't need to get your ass kicked 90% of the time in the early game, but you better bring your "A" game later on when you are in a high level zone.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is going a way back but my hands-down favorite boss fight was always in the last patch area of BC, kind of a blood elf area I think. The 5-man had a boss fight which was a 5-man team that mimicked a party you fight. I loved that fight. I could be remembering wrong, but didn't that fight have decent scripting? And didn't people complain about it? I could be remembering wrong.