Yeah that's a good extension of prior issues mentioned. Lahn's got a good base concept, but crafters being beholden to multiple others coupled with everyone having to feed through them, while helping to push community, also enforces it in a manner that unfortunately leads to a bottleneck.
You have premiums stacked on premiums, and the type of inflation of value coupled with the inherent scarcity can end up just driving a new version of disparity into the game instead where general farmers/grinders have better rewards than even raiders.
Actually, my suggestion does address that. First, its not a one-off for endgame gearing since you have item degradation. One of the biuggest faults with crafting is that much stuff stays ingame forever and once the market is saturated the crafting becomes useless. Thats why professions like alchemy in WoW are worth much more, the items are consumed. Hence the item degradation.
It also brings value to the rest of the game and game world, it is an interdepence between all disciplines (raiding, crafting and exploring in my suggestion) and all are of value to eachother. The problem in MMORPGs with raiding is that the rewards from said raiding are only of value to those who raid and only help them get further. Its a rabbit hole and the deeper you go, the more isolated that little part of the community gets. By breaking that open all groups in the game world have an equal amount of power, influence and usefulness and need for eachother.
To take it a step further, gear shouldn't be about BiS, it should be about situational BiS. Explorers might need high stealth gear to explore dangerous ruins. Crafters might need a huge durability boost on their gear to increase the chances of not breaking their "Nimble Sword of Death" when making it. Raiders might need frost resistance gear for the tundras but fire resistance gear for a lava lair, think more Monster Hunter and not level range. That way gear can specialise a character and their value/strength and can be of worth to ALL players, not just the top level ones.
With all of the above taken into consideration raiding would actually strengthen the entire community, as would crafting, as would exploring. We just need to think outside the box a bit more, we all yell succes and/or failure based on how things have been done up till now, that's what stopping the genre from moving forward in the first place.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Each time I read this, I can't help but think this whole discussion is about one game, and I am going to wager that game is WoW.
Now, for better or worse, I wager I am one of the few that can say they never played WoW. So, to be honest, I have no idea what that game was like, and no real desire to find out.
But, here is my take. I know some of the developers that worked on WoW, were very avid gamers themselves that loved raids, so it stands to reason that their game is going to have a heavy focus on raids.
Equally so, from what I have gleaned from this discussion, in WoW, gear, is beyond simple in that game, where it is class and level locked, and gearing up is as easy to comprehend as following a color chart. Blue Cleric Armor is better than Green Cleric Armor, and Purple Cleric Armor is best non Raid Cleric Armor, but Fuschia Border means it's Raid ++ Gear, which you need to do Raid +++, to get Raid +++ Gear, to Raid ++++.. and so forth.. I wager as mindlessly simple as TERA or BDO.
So it's kinda simple and easy to process, not a lot of thought needs to go on, and even then, those that want to be in the "end game" just follow whatever build set up is considered meta for their base class and go with that. Memorize rotations, and the like.
Honestly, if the game is set up that way, it's obvious they are looking for a specific demographic of players, Kudos to them and they should stay the course.
Now.
Going with your suggestion. Your ideas have already been used in other games, even games with a heavy raid focus use very complex gear set ups, nothing even remotely as simple as what has been expressed by the people on this topic. And this vast and complex system is done by making the game with Situational Gear as opposed to a blanket BiS gear, that I wager WoW uses.
Honestly, there are much better options already being used in games, some with raids, some without.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It also brings value to the rest of the game and game world, it is an interdepence between all disciplines (raiding, crafting and exploring in my suggestion) and all are of value to eachother. The problem in MMORPGs with raiding is that the rewards from said raiding are only of value to those who raid and only help them get further. Its a rabbit hole and the deeper you go, the more isolated that little part of the community gets. By breaking that open all groups in the game world have an equal amount of power, influence and usefulness and need for eachother.
<snip>
While your point is good in theory, there are some pretty devastating issues. To achieve inter-depencence, you are correct that each must be of value. However, that dependence relies entirely on the developers to distribute the various needed resources equally. When the valued crafting items are hidden behind raid content, it has not encouraged inter-dependence. Rather, it encourages the raider-crafter hybrid, a character attempting to do both.
Human nature is a powerful force, too, especially if role-specific resources drop only in one aspect that is inherently out of bounds for that role. I.e., when crafting resources originate from raid content, or raid resources originate from exploring content (to stick with your 3 disciplines). In a game with 3 distinct and unique disciplines, there will be players attempting to bypass any restrictions put in place, until ultimately, a vast majority of the game's population is a do-it-all hybrid. Those will be the characters that are 'best' of each discipline. (R, C, E, RC, RE, CE, RCE)
Again, the do-everything character defeats the specialist. Raider-crafter-explorer hybrids will have access to all resources innately, without having to 'pay' for the resources/materials/recipes, while the specialist will have to 'pay' for everything. This puts the specialist at a disadvantage, a disadvantage that the developers can't easily circumvent. If the specialist crafter has access to a means to make large amounts of money, any hybrid that includes crafting (RC, CE, RCE) will have access to that same mechanic.
A character pursuing hybrid disciplines increases the difficulty for the specialist character to succeed. The hybrid will have more opportunity to engage in every activity due to access to all discipline content. The presence of hybrids in each type of content will diminish the amount of resources available for the specialist, reducing the amount of 'surplus' resources available for purchase.
These challenges would need to be addressed by the development team in order to create a balanced game. This probably includes incursions into 'normal' human behavior, such as the desire for self-sufficiency. That isn't an easy task. Most developers will see 'difficult = costly', and they (or the accountants) will simply nix the idea.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.
If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.
Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.
You are not comparing like for like, it has to be a 1000 hours of raiding for a 1000 hours of some other gameplay which can't take years longer its the same 1000 hours. We would play the same amount each week. Given that scenario, to me you are choosing to play easier content that does not deserve as big a reward, but having said that the reward track might be totally different say cosmetic outfits. Not sure how you would compare such rewards as for one player that's great for another it would be "jack diddly".
Let's get something clear here.. you brought up Dailies vs Raids.. don't candy ass out on me now, because it didn't work for you.
A fair point Ungood, but I was thinking though that when you said 1000 hours you were doing more than just that, there would have to be an enormous amount of dailies to be comparable. But my point about relative difficulty stands.
Age of Wushu dropped recipes and mats for high level PvE. No gear at all.
The best gear gear in game was truly made by crafters. Anyone in game could have the best gear.
hears the thing though. You might have to take out a second mortgage on your house (irl) to buy those recipes if you didn’t get the drop, or if you want the gear made by them.
Any system has issues BC, well spotted but there must be a way
to at least mitigate that. The problem you highlight is one of restriction of
rewards, as a solution could you not swap them maybe in auction, swap not pay
for? Not saying that would knock it on the head but there is bound to be a "least issues" solution.
I won't bother to copy another of Limnic's posts, once is enough surely:
I think Lahnmir had it in a nutshell actually, your posts were large and
meandering. But I am not saying you did not have some good ideas there, it was
just not a cohesive whole. Not sure how my "take" on it was different
to Lahnmir's as I did a copy and paste, but there you go.
I am not going to cover what I agree with, your ideas on a more complex item
degradation system where interesting, just the one that caught my eye:
"like the statement that end-game resources come
specifically from raiding. That's the kind of thing that can be much more
organically distributed."
I guess you are suggesting that soloer's can
contribute Limnic, or is that another one of my "assumptions"? If so
that defeats the idea of the system.
1) Your interpretation is obviously different, because most of what you have said thus-far has been focused on preserving the raiding dynamic as it's own thing. That runs counter to Lahn's dialogue. Even if you're quoting and saying you agree with him there, none of the rest of your rhetoric stands in line with that.
If you mean to say you agree with what Lahn said there, but not with us when that was the same kinda thing we said several pages ago, then that leads to the separate issue that you chose to change your mind to agree with what we had said previously, but also chose to continue contending it.
2) I'm suggesting everyone can contribute to it. Your obsession with soloers as the only counterpoint to raiders (who do not represent the full gaming community) is breaking any potential for conversation on that matter, since I am talking about the full gaming community.
At least you didn't bother quoting something you didn't read this time. Yeah, I make some big posts, but anything you want to address I can be certain to quote a paragraph covering the topic. Do you call being thorough "meandering"? Where is it that I walk off on odd analogies or tangents? Am I repeating myself each paragraph, or stepping from one element to the next? What part of that is losing you?
A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.
If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)
I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards?
No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.
Let me try this again.
IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.
What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.
Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.
That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.
Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?
We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.
Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:
"Raiders should get the best materials. Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc. Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.
And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."
Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare.
Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.
If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.
Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.
Must be some really crazy dailys that takes 1 hour a day and 3 years to do.
But I think the reality is most raider will do dailys and raid too.
I'm a person who actually agree with you or Limnic. I just think you need to actually have the content to backup rewarding players. Since wow didn't develop enough challenging solo game content in end game. I think the best gear should be for raiding.
There's the post. there are people actually thinking game's today or generic themepark game focus on solo play.
You on the other hand thought completely opposite. Wow or generic themepark game focused too much on grouping and neglect solo players.
Dude, you just quoted a post by TheScavenger who is a known...curiosity, and that post is from a year ago. You aren't even quoting a person from this thread.
On top of that, you haven't quoted once where I'm claiming the games are neglecting solo players. I've repeatedly said however, that these games are neglecting the community. You're the idjit that has focused on asking about solo play instead of the myriad of other topics I and others have talked about.
Is pulling fictional argument out of your butt all you are capable of.
There's the post. there are people actually thinking game's today or generic themepark game focus on solo play.
You on the other hand thought completely opposite. Wow or generic themepark game focused too much on grouping and neglect solo players.
Dude, you just quoted a post by TheScavenger who is a known...curiosity, and that post is from a year ago. You aren't even quoting a person from this thread.
On top of that, you haven't quoted once where I'm claiming the games are neglecting solo players. I've repeatedly said however, that these games are neglecting the community. You're the idjit that has focused on asking about solo play instead of the myriad of other topics I and others have talked about.
Is pulling fictional argument out of your butt all you are capable of.
Maybe I'm mistaken. But I thought you mean games are neglecting solo players because they put the best gear in raid. And solo players quit the games because there is no progression for solo players, only group dungeon and raid.
A casual player does not view their time into the game as less important than some hardcore player, it is still their time and money they have chosen to spend in that game, and it should be equally respected.
If some developer is stupid enough disrespect them, and treat their casuals player like second class citizens, I sincerely hope they have a back-up plan for when all casuals get bored and leave (assuming they even bother to log into the game at all)
I mean, look, here is the deal. If the best stuff in the game is only ever going to get gotten by 10% of your player base.. expect the other 90% to leave, because no one is gonna stay around in a dead end game.. at least not for long.
So if one player spends more in the cash shop than another he should get no more than the player who spent less? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and about time spent, if one player spends four times as long as you in game you should get the same rewards?
No, in fact, this is the complete opposite of what I have been saying.
Let me try this again.
IF We we both spend 1,000 hours playing the game, and you use that 1,000 hours to raid, I use that 1,000 hours to solo, ideally we should both end up with the same rewards.
What you (and others on your side) have been saying, is that because you spent 1,000 hours raiding, your hours are somehow worth more than everyone else's time.
Because what you are preaching is that everyone who did not Raid, that their 1000 hours, be it crafting, map exploration, solo/small group dungeons, or anything and everything else that was not a Raid, was a complete waste of their time to bother doing at all.
That kind of design bottlenecks everyone into one activity that is deemed "The Correct" activity, and with that kind of set up, all the other things may as well not exist, as they are all dead ended. Which is kind of ironic, because it seems developers do put a lot of time and effort into those "other" activities, n costs them good money to make it, only to have the company that made this content treat it like second rate trash content.
Which is rather sad to be honest, like why bother to spend the money to even make the content to start with.
I will accept hypothetical situations when they are feasible but this one is not. Lets say you spent 1000 hours to get to top level, well so did I. The idea I somehow started with raids is not possible. So we are left with our time after top level, where you either decided to partake in the content there is or you don't. If you do a 1000 hours of dailies are you telling me that's equivalent to a thousand hours of raids?
We have seen some reasonable ideas put forward, you had some as did Vermillion, though obviously I have not agreed with all you have said by any means. I certainly don't agree with some of the princples the authors of this thread have about MMOs, but that does not mean I think nothing needs to be done. I do think some posters are conflating the MMO genre's poor end game with raids, MMOs have a poor end game, thats not down to raids it is down to the nature of MMOs.
Here is what I think is the best potential system I have seen so far, from @Lahnmir:
"Raiders should get the best materials. Crafters can craft the best gear with these materials, the better the materials the better the product. These products can be tailored towards any specialisation or situation, raider gear, crafter gear, explorer gear, fire resistance gear etc. etc. Explorers find the best crafting recipes and maps for dungeons/raids so raiders can raid and crafters can craft(dynamic placement of dungeons and raids is still a dream of mine). Explorers need protection from raiders and gear from crafters though.
And no gear drops besides the most basic stuff. Combined with item degradation and you get some interesting interdependence going on."
Something for everyone to do with the odd 1000 hours we have spare.
Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.
If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.
Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.
I think one of the problem is if you play 1 hour a day, but other people play 3 hours everyday. Those people play longer will always reach their goal first. So developer will always push out more content and better gear to keep the people who play longer happy.
So by the time you manage to get good gear. There will be new and better gear coming out.
There's the post. there are people actually thinking game's today or generic themepark game focus on solo play.
You on the other hand thought completely opposite. Wow or generic themepark game focused too much on grouping and neglect solo players.
Dude, you just quoted a post by TheScavenger who is a known...curiosity, and that post is from a year ago. You aren't even quoting a person from this thread.
On top of that, you haven't quoted once where I'm claiming the games are neglecting solo players. I've repeatedly said however, that these games are neglecting the community. You're the idjit that has focused on asking about solo play instead of the myriad of other topics I and others have talked about.
Is pulling fictional argument out of your butt all you are capable of.
Maybe I'm mistaken. But I thought you mean games are neglecting solo players because they put the best gear in raid. And solo players quit the games because there is no progression for solo players, only group dungeon and raid.
But anyway. You can express anyway you like.
A game is neglecting it's overall community by focusing on raids as it's only serious/ultimate form end-game progression. Solo players are only one small bit of that community getting the shaft, and not a group I have spent much time talking about at all outside of your inane questions.
Ungood said: Let's say that you have not done dailies at all, and use all your time to build up for raids, say 20 hours a week, so, 1,000 is roughly 1 year, and you have the best shit in the game.
If all I have done with my 1,000 hours of game time is do dailies, which lets say, takes me roughly an hour a day, that means I have been playing this game daily for the last 3 years.. there is no way in hell that my loyalty to the game should be not rewarded in spades.
Now look at that shit, look at it long and hard.. and the next time you ask why Subs are dead.. take a good look at that relationship. 3 years, paying a sub, and all that time and money, worth jack diddly shit.
Must be some really crazy dailys that takes 1 hour a day and 3 years to do.
But I think the reality is most raider will do dailys and raid too.
I'm a person who actually agree with you or Limnic. I just think you need to actually have the content to backup rewarding players. Since wow didn't develop enough challenging solo game content in end game. I think the best gear should be for raiding.
Dailies are Endless, you can play a game for 10 years and still log in and do a daily.
Now, this is not being rude, as I am sure many people loved WoW, but, from what I have heard just in this topic alone, their entire system we crudely simplistic in contrast to games that came out less than a year later.
Let me give you an idea.
Imagine you want to Raid, and to raid, you need to complete a series of quest lines, we shall call them flagging quests. These quests do not hand you what you need to deal with the raid, they may have some rare named gear, that has obviously only a rare chance to drop for you, but overall, these quests are more a gauntlet to see if you are ready to even deal with the raid.
Now, to prep for these quests, you need to farm, other quests that have the gear you need to face these flagging quests.
Then you do the Raid, and you have again a Chance to get some Raid Loot.
Now, even after you get the raid loot, you are at best, only going to get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from that raid, because this raid does not drop complete sets, it drops some random rings, a mask, a pair of boots, bracers, and a staff and a maybe a bow. Some of which will be better than what you already have, or work well with your build, other pieces will be totally worthless to you. So, you do this raid, and you still, for the most part, will continue to use the gear that got you to this Raid.
Now you might be thinking "Well Obviously as loot is class based" but.. what if it wasn't.. what if you played an MMO, where anyone could equip anything they wanted, it might have drawbacks or not work well with your build, but everything was open for you to use. So, every single item from that raid, you could equip.. but only a few piece would be really be beneficial to you.
Now, Imagine.. going into that Raid, and knowing there is not a single thing you want from this raid, but you are doing it, because it's fun, because you are there to help your guild and friends, and well, it's still decent generic loot and solid exp.
Can you even visualize that kind of game? Doing a raid where there is no loot that you actually want?
Anyway.. so you move on after a while, do the Next Raid on the list.
Again, flagging, leveling, gear prep, which may or may not have come from any previous Raids.
Now..how could that work? Leveling?
Well, not I want you Imagine something mind warping... imagine if Raids didn't start at End Game.. imagine.. they started at Mid Game.
So using your time in WoW, imagine if you could have started to raid at level 30 when the max was level 60. Now imagine that some of the loot you got from that level 30 raid, would still going to be viable for all the upcoming content, quests, raids, all of it.
Bet that sounds like something that could never happen.
Lets go a little deeper into that complex gear system.
Now, imagine a gear system so complex, that there is no BiS item, that some apparently piddly little named item that you by luck picked up on some side quest line at level 15, was going end up being viable to you for the rest of your game life, that you would continue to use it, long into those level 60 raids, and when the cap gets raised again.. that item, was going to still get used there as well.
Now imagine it is not game breaking powerful, it's just a little bauble, that has its use, and if you didn't have it, it's not the end of the world for you, for the most part, an inconvenience, but, equally so, it could be the difference between your life or death during an encounter.
Imagine a game that complex.. do you even think you could figure out how to make that happen?
Well.. I play that kind of MMO every night.
Which is why, I cannot fathom where you all are coming from.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There's the post. there are people actually thinking game's today or generic themepark game focus on solo play.
You on the other hand thought completely opposite. Wow or generic themepark game focused too much on grouping and neglect solo players.
Dude, you just quoted a post by TheScavenger who is a known...curiosity, and that post is from a year ago. You aren't even quoting a person from this thread.
On top of that, you haven't quoted once where I'm claiming the games are neglecting solo players. I've repeatedly said however, that these games are neglecting the community. You're the idjit that has focused on asking about solo play instead of the myriad of other topics I and others have talked about.
Is pulling fictional argument out of your butt all you are capable of.
Maybe I'm mistaken. But I thought you mean games are neglecting solo players because they put the best gear in raid. And solo players quit the games because there is no progression for solo players, only group dungeon and raid.
But anyway. You can express anyway you like.
A game is neglecting it's overall community by focusing on raids as it's only serious/ultimate form end-game progression. Solo players are only one small bit of that community getting the shaft, and not a group I have spent much time talking about at all outside of your inane questions.
I think older game just lack content. So they try to slow down people's progression, and raid become one of the ways.
I dont' think there are actually much if any games that raid lock content any more. Wow is one of it but consider wow probably have more end game content outside of raid than most games, I fail to see how people call wow as a game which neglect people outside of raid.
Seeing as even now WoW utilizes a very linear BiS design, and that the best gear consequently sits in raids still, your post is already simply a false statement.
In the loose sense, you can ignore raids and do other things once you hit endgame, but most games you'd want to point at is going to have the same problem of those activities in no way contributing towards the goal of further progression of your character or user experience. There are a few exceptions to this obviously, but those are, well, exceptions, which often have their own issues (such as the prior mentioned Age of Wushu).
In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content. So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.
And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.
And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design. So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously. So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?
Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game. Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.
Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding. Does that suddenly make your time more worth while? Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
You claimed they lack content. Raiding is content, just stupidly narrow content that caters to a tiny portion of the user base.
So your content claim, and your subsequent argument, just doesn't work or flow.
And How are you this far behind on the discussion? Most of this thread has been about changes to the system that would accommodate a broader user experience. You arguing that status quo should be the status quo because it's the current status quo adds absolutely nothing to that.
And why do you keep asking stupid questions? If WoW removed the BiS from raids without doing or considering anything that the folk that can cogitate have been discussing in this thread, the game would have removed what last vestiges of incentive it hasn't yet taken away from players.
Why are you wasting time with tangents that mean next to nothing? Do you not have anything to contribute to what's actually been getting discussed?
In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content. So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.
And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.
And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design. So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously. So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?
Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game. Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.
Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding. Does that suddenly make your time more worth while? Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
The crafting, the solo things are exactly the types of things we are saying should be there.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content. So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.
And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.
And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design. So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously. So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?
Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game. Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.
Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding. Does that suddenly make your time more worth while? Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
The crafting, the solo things are exactly the types of things we are saying should be there.
I just keep farming gold from crafting to be honest. I think I'm one of the richest if not the richest guy on my server during vanilla wow time. And I just keep playing new alt and become altaholic.
So your point is wow lacks crafting or solo content?
Click on the "games" tab at the top of this web page and have fun going down that list, with most of them having these problems. WoW is only brought up as a figurehead.
Even within the exceptions to this, like GW2, you still run right into issues around their attempt at pushing fractals and similar raid content while neglecting other components, and ending up doing the same sideways alienation and loss of player retention around the rest of the userbase as WoW has had. This is a prolific issue.
And as @VengeSunsoar said, the couple of things you mentioned crafting and solo dungeons are only a couple of the things we have been discussing, and you have completely ignored for the sake of these nonsensical dialogues or obsessive tangents. Hell, the fact that any affirmation was given to solo questing even though you were the one to yet again initiate that track you'll probably spin into another stupid comment as well.
Click on the "games" tab at the top of this web page and have fun going down that list, with most of them having these problems. WoW is only brought up as a figurehead.
Even within the exceptions to this, like GW2, you still run right into issues around their attempt at pushing fractals and similar raid content while neglecting other components, and ending up doing the same sideways alienation and loss of player retention around the rest of the userbase as WoW has had. This is a prolific issue.
And as @VengeSunsoar said, the couple of things you mentioned crafting and solo dungeons are only a couple of the things we have been discussing, and you have completely ignored for the sake of these nonsensical dialogues or obsessive tangents. Hell, the fact that any affirmation was given to solo questing even though you were the one to yet again initiate that track you'll probably spin into another stupid comment as well.
well, fractal isn't raiding. It is 5 man. But I suppose you want solo content. And the best gear is legendary. Legendary weapon you can get from "mostly" soloing. I'm not sure about legendary armor since I quit the game a while ago.
I dont' think it is a problem in GW2. Since there is no gear progression. You can easily get the BiS just by crafting. (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).
That argument is perhaps the one most devoid of thought as I have yet seen.
Fractials are the same mechanic as raids in GW2, the only argument you have there is they are 5-man instead of 10 man, which just makes them a 5-man raid.
And yet again you make the stupid solo argument. Doing something other than instanced crap does not immediately mean you have to be soloing. Are open world events a solo activity? No.
And I don't care what you think. GW2, when they released this content and failed to deliver new gear to gain through alternative paths alongside the launch of this content, caused the viable scope for continued progression to narrow and drove players away. Just because you didn't think it was a problem is irrelevant, enough other people did that Arenanet tried to course-correct, but still lost a good number of active players and has progressively struggled more as a studio.
Are you posting here because everyone else is smart enough to ignore you?
In order to keep feeding players better gear, they need more content. So which part am I wrong saying the problem is lack of content.
And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.
And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design. So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously. So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?
Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game. Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.
Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding. Does that suddenly make your time more worth while? Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
The crafting, the solo things are exactly the types of things we are saying should be there.
I just keep farming gold from crafting to be honest. I think I'm one of the richest if not the richest guy on my server during vanilla wow time. And I just keep playing new alt and become altaholic.
So your point is wow lacks crafting or solo content?
The point is wow lacks other means of getting gear at Max level other than raids.
You suggested unless wow implements legendary crafting or head solo dungeons they don't deserve it.
So other things such as ones you suggested should be implemented.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
AAAMEOW said: I dont' think it is a problem in GW2. Since there is no gear progression. You can easily get the BiS just by crafting. (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).
The fact that they took an over 30% income decline within the first quarter after locking legendary armor behind raids, and kept bleeding income to the point that they ended up canceling all other projects and letting half their staff go to stay solvent, meass it was a major screw up on their part to cater to their 10% raiders.
You not realizing that it was such a huge problem just shows that you were not paying attention.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Seeing as even now WoW utilizes a very linear BiS design, and that the best gear consequently sits in raids still, your post is already simply a false statement.
In the loose sense, you can ignore raids and do other things once you hit endgame, but most games you'd want to point at is going to have the same problem of those activities in no way contributing towards the goal of further progression of your character or user experience. There are a few exceptions to this obviously, but those are, well, exceptions, which often have their own issues (such as the prior mentioned Age of Wushu).
Now, this is not being rude, as I am sure many people loved WoW, but, from what I have heard just in this topic alone, their entire gear system was crudely simplistic in contrast to games that came out less than a year later.
Let me give you an idea.
Imagine you want to Raid, and to raid, you need to complete a series of quest lines, we shall call them flagging quests. These quests do not hand you what you need to deal with the raid, they may have some rare named gear, that has obviously only a rare chance to drop for you, but overall, these quests are more a gauntlet to see if you are ready to even deal with the raid.
Now, to prep for these quests, you need to farm, other quests that have the gear you need to face these flagging quests.
Then you do the Raid, and you have again a Chance to get some Raid Loot.
Now, even after you get the raid loot, you are at best, only going to get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from that raid, because this raid does not drop complete sets, it drops some random rings, a mask, a pair of boots, bracers, and a staff and a maybe a bow. Some of which will be better than what you already have, or work well with your build, other pieces will be totally worthless to you. So, you do this raid, and you still, for the most part, will continue to use the gear that got you to this Raid.
Now you might be thinking "Well Obviously as loot is class based" but.. what if it wasn't.. what if you played an MMO, where anyone could equip anything they wanted, it might have drawbacks or not work well with your build, but everything was open for you to use. So, every single item from that raid, you could equip.. but only a few piece would be really be beneficial to you.
Now, Imagine.. going into that Raid, and knowing there is not a single thing you want from this raid, but you are doing it, because it's fun, because you are there to help your guild and friends, and well, it's still decent generic loot and solid exp.
Can you even visualize that kind of game? Doing a raid where there is no loot that you actually want?
Anyway.. so you move on after a while, do the Next Raid on the list.
Again, flagging, leveling, gear prep, which may or may not have come from any previous Raids.
Now..how could that work? Leveling?
Well, not I want you Imagine something mind warping... imagine if Raids didn't start at End Game.. imagine.. they started at Mid Game.
So using your time in WoW, imagine if you could have started to raid at level 30 when the max was level 60. Now imagine that some of the loot you got from that level 30 raid, would still going to be viable for all the upcoming content, quests, raids, all of it.
Bet that sounds like something that could never happen.
Lets go a little deeper into that complex gear system.
Now, imagine a gear system so complex, that there is no BiS item, that some apparently piddly little named item that you by luck picked up on some side quest line at level 15, was going end up being viable to you for the rest of your game life, that you would continue to use it, long into those level 60 raids, and when the cap gets raised again.. that item, was going to still get used there as well.
Now imagine it is not game breaking powerful, it's just a little bauble, that has its use, and if you didn't have it, it's not the end of the world for you, for the most part, an inconvenience, but, equally so, it could be the difference between your life or death during an encounter.
Imagine a game that complex, where Raid gear, Challenge Gear, Quest Gear, all have their place, all are viable .. do you even think you could figure out how to make that happen?
Well.. I play that kind of MMO every night.
Which is why, I cannot fathom where you all are coming from.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
You have premiums stacked on premiums, and the type of inflation of value coupled with the inherent scarcity can end up just driving a new version of disparity into the game instead where general farmers/grinders have better rewards than even raiders.
Now, for better or worse, I wager I am one of the few that can say they never played WoW. So, to be honest, I have no idea what that game was like, and no real desire to find out.
But, here is my take. I know some of the developers that worked on WoW, were very avid gamers themselves that loved raids, so it stands to reason that their game is going to have a heavy focus on raids.
Equally so, from what I have gleaned from this discussion, in WoW, gear, is beyond simple in that game, where it is class and level locked, and gearing up is as easy to comprehend as following a color chart. Blue Cleric Armor is better than Green Cleric Armor, and Purple Cleric Armor is best non Raid Cleric Armor, but Fuschia Border means it's Raid ++ Gear, which you need to do Raid +++, to get Raid +++ Gear, to Raid ++++.. and so forth.. I wager as mindlessly simple as TERA or BDO.
So it's kinda simple and easy to process, not a lot of thought needs to go on, and even then, those that want to be in the "end game" just follow whatever build set up is considered meta for their base class and go with that. Memorize rotations, and the like.
Honestly, if the game is set up that way, it's obvious they are looking for a specific demographic of players, Kudos to them and they should stay the course.
Now.
Going with your suggestion. Your ideas have already been used in other games, even games with a heavy raid focus use very complex gear set ups, nothing even remotely as simple as what has been expressed by the people on this topic. And this vast and complex system is done by making the game with Situational Gear as opposed to a blanket BiS gear, that I wager WoW uses.
Honestly, there are much better options already being used in games, some with raids, some without.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Any system has issues BC, well spotted but there must be a way to at least mitigate that. The problem you highlight is one of restriction of rewards, as a solution could you not swap them maybe in auction, swap not pay for? Not saying that would knock it on the head but there is bound to be a "least issues" solution.
I won't bother to copy another of Limnic's posts, once is enough surely:
I think Lahnmir had it in a nutshell actually, your posts were large and meandering. But I am not saying you did not have some good ideas there, it was just not a cohesive whole. Not sure how my "take" on it was different to Lahnmir's as I did a copy and paste, but there you go.
I am not going to cover what I agree with, your ideas on a more complex item degradation system where interesting, just the one that caught my eye:
"like the statement that end-game resources come specifically from raiding. That's the kind of thing that can be much more organically distributed."
I guess you are suggesting that soloer's can contribute Limnic, or is that another one of my "assumptions"? If so that defeats the idea of the system.
1) Your interpretation is obviously different, because most of what you have said thus-far has been focused on preserving the raiding dynamic as it's own thing. That runs counter to Lahn's dialogue. Even if you're quoting and saying you agree with him there, none of the rest of your rhetoric stands in line with that.
If you mean to say you agree with what Lahn said there, but not with us when that was the same kinda thing we said several pages ago, then that leads to the separate issue that you chose to change your mind to agree with what we had said previously, but also chose to continue contending it.
2) I'm suggesting everyone can contribute to it. Your obsession with soloers as the only counterpoint to raiders (who do not represent the full gaming community) is breaking any potential for conversation on that matter, since I am talking about the full gaming community.
At least you didn't bother quoting something you didn't read this time. Yeah, I make some big posts, but anything you want to address I can be certain to quote a paragraph covering the topic. Do you call being thorough "meandering"? Where is it that I walk off on odd analogies or tangents? Am I repeating myself each paragraph, or stepping from one element to the next? What part of that is losing you?
There's the post. there are people actually thinking game's today or generic themepark game focus on solo play.
You on the other hand thought completely opposite. Wow or generic themepark game focused too much on grouping and neglect solo players.
But I think the reality is most raider will do dailys and raid too.
I'm a person who actually agree with you or Limnic. I just think you need to actually have the content to backup rewarding players. Since wow didn't develop enough challenging solo game content in end game. I think the best gear should be for raiding.
On top of that, you haven't quoted once where I'm claiming the games are neglecting solo players. I've repeatedly said however, that these games are neglecting the community. You're the idjit that has focused on asking about solo play instead of the myriad of other topics I and others have talked about.
Is pulling fictional argument out of your butt all you are capable of.
But anyway. You can express anyway you like.
So by the time you manage to get good gear. There will be new and better gear coming out.
Now, this is not being rude, as I am sure many people loved WoW, but, from what I have heard just in this topic alone, their entire system we crudely simplistic in contrast to games that came out less than a year later.
Let me give you an idea.
Imagine you want to Raid, and to raid, you need to complete a series of quest lines, we shall call them flagging quests. These quests do not hand you what you need to deal with the raid, they may have some rare named gear, that has obviously only a rare chance to drop for you, but overall, these quests are more a gauntlet to see if you are ready to even deal with the raid.
Now, to prep for these quests, you need to farm, other quests that have the gear you need to face these flagging quests.
Then you do the Raid, and you have again a Chance to get some Raid Loot.
Now, even after you get the raid loot, you are at best, only going to get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from that raid, because this raid does not drop complete sets, it drops some random rings, a mask, a pair of boots, bracers, and a staff and a maybe a bow. Some of which will be better than what you already have, or work well with your build, other pieces will be totally worthless to you. So, you do this raid, and you still, for the most part, will continue to use the gear that got you to this Raid.
Now you might be thinking "Well Obviously as loot is class based" but.. what if it wasn't.. what if you played an MMO, where anyone could equip anything they wanted, it might have drawbacks or not work well with your build, but everything was open for you to use. So, every single item from that raid, you could equip.. but only a few piece would be really be beneficial to you.
Now, Imagine.. going into that Raid, and knowing there is not a single thing you want from this raid, but you are doing it, because it's fun, because you are there to help your guild and friends, and well, it's still decent generic loot and solid exp.
Can you even visualize that kind of game? Doing a raid where there is no loot that you actually want?
Anyway.. so you move on after a while, do the Next Raid on the list.
Again, flagging, leveling, gear prep, which may or may not have come from any previous Raids.
Now..how could that work? Leveling?
Well, not I want you Imagine something mind warping... imagine if Raids didn't start at End Game.. imagine.. they started at Mid Game.
So using your time in WoW, imagine if you could have started to raid at level 30 when the max was level 60. Now imagine that some of the loot you got from that level 30 raid, would still going to be viable for all the upcoming content, quests, raids, all of it.
Bet that sounds like something that could never happen.
Lets go a little deeper into that complex gear system.
Now, imagine a gear system so complex, that there is no BiS item, that some apparently piddly little named item that you by luck picked up on some side quest line at level 15, was going end up being viable to you for the rest of your game life, that you would continue to use it, long into those level 60 raids, and when the cap gets raised again.. that item, was going to still get used there as well.
Now imagine it is not game breaking powerful, it's just a little bauble, that has its use, and if you didn't have it, it's not the end of the world for you, for the most part, an inconvenience, but, equally so, it could be the difference between your life or death during an encounter.
Imagine a game that complex.. do you even think you could figure out how to make that happen?
Well.. I play that kind of MMO every night.
Which is why, I cannot fathom where you all are coming from.
I dont' think there are actually much if any games that raid lock content any more. Wow is one of it but consider wow probably have more end game content outside of raid than most games, I fail to see how people call wow as a game which neglect people outside of raid.
In the loose sense, you can ignore raids and do other things once you hit endgame, but most games you'd want to point at is going to have the same problem of those activities in no way contributing towards the goal of further progression of your character or user experience. There are a few exceptions to this obviously, but those are, well, exceptions, which often have their own issues (such as the prior mentioned Age of Wushu).
And if wow just hand out best gear to everyone, people won't be motivated to do the new content.
And you said yourself wow utilize very linear BiS design. So they not only do the raid content but most likely everything previously. So why shouldn't they deserve the best gear?
Unless Wow implement legendary crafting like that in GW2, those people really don't deserve to get the best gear in the game. Or unless Wow implement solo dungeon which is as difficult as raiding(lack of content) they don't deserve it.
Lastly if wow just remove BiS from raiding. Does that suddenly make your time more worth while? Or you just think there are not enough things to do outside of raid.
So your content claim, and your subsequent argument, just doesn't work or flow.
And How are you this far behind on the discussion? Most of this thread has been about changes to the system that would accommodate a broader user experience. You arguing that status quo should be the status quo because it's the current status quo adds absolutely nothing to that.
And why do you keep asking stupid questions? If WoW removed the BiS from raids without doing or considering anything that the folk that can cogitate have been discussing in this thread, the game would have removed what last vestiges of incentive it hasn't yet taken away from players.
Why are you wasting time with tangents that mean next to nothing? Do you not have anything to contribute to what's actually been getting discussed?
Or are you just hypothesizing a problem or have you played a previous game that become a problem to you?
You play wow and you find the lack of endgame content/bis outside raid a problem?
So your point is wow lacks crafting or solo content?
Even within the exceptions to this, like GW2, you still run right into issues around their attempt at pushing fractals and similar raid content while neglecting other components, and ending up doing the same sideways alienation and loss of player retention around the rest of the userbase as WoW has had. This is a prolific issue.
And as @VengeSunsoar said, the couple of things you mentioned crafting and solo dungeons are only a couple of the things we have been discussing, and you have completely ignored for the sake of these nonsensical dialogues or obsessive tangents. Hell, the fact that any affirmation was given to solo questing even though you were the one to yet again initiate that track you'll probably spin into another stupid comment as well.
I dont' think it is a problem in GW2. Since there is no gear progression. You can easily get the BiS just by crafting. (or pretty much doing anything there are many ways to get gear with the highest stats).
Fractials are the same mechanic as raids in GW2, the only argument you have there is they are 5-man instead of 10 man, which just makes them a 5-man raid.
And yet again you make the stupid solo argument. Doing something other than instanced crap does not immediately mean you have to be soloing. Are open world events a solo activity? No.
And I don't care what you think. GW2, when they released this content and failed to deliver new gear to gain through alternative paths alongside the launch of this content, caused the viable scope for continued progression to narrow and drove players away. Just because you didn't think it was a problem is irrelevant, enough other people did that Arenanet tried to course-correct, but still lost a good number of active players and has progressively struggled more as a studio.
Are you posting here because everyone else is smart enough to ignore you?
You suggested unless wow implements legendary crafting or head solo dungeons they don't deserve it.
So other things such as ones you suggested should be implemented.
You not realizing that it was such a huge problem just shows that you were not paying attention.
Let me give you an idea.
Imagine you want to Raid, and to raid, you need to complete a series of quest lines, we shall call them flagging quests. These quests do not hand you what you need to deal with the raid, they may have some rare named gear, that has obviously only a rare chance to drop for you, but overall, these quests are more a gauntlet to see if you are ready to even deal with the raid.
Now, to prep for these quests, you need to farm, other quests that have the gear you need to face these flagging quests.
Then you do the Raid, and you have again a Chance to get some Raid Loot.
Now, even after you get the raid loot, you are at best, only going to get 1 or 2 pieces of gear from that raid, because this raid does not drop complete sets, it drops some random rings, a mask, a pair of boots, bracers, and a staff and a maybe a bow. Some of which will be better than what you already have, or work well with your build, other pieces will be totally worthless to you. So, you do this raid, and you still, for the most part, will continue to use the gear that got you to this Raid.
Now you might be thinking "Well Obviously as loot is class based" but.. what if it wasn't.. what if you played an MMO, where anyone could equip anything they wanted, it might have drawbacks or not work well with your build, but everything was open for you to use. So, every single item from that raid, you could equip.. but only a few piece would be really be beneficial to you.
Now, Imagine.. going into that Raid, and knowing there is not a single thing you want from this raid, but you are doing it, because it's fun, because you are there to help your guild and friends, and well, it's still decent generic loot and solid exp.
Can you even visualize that kind of game? Doing a raid where there is no loot that you actually want?
Anyway.. so you move on after a while, do the Next Raid on the list.
Again, flagging, leveling, gear prep, which may or may not have come from any previous Raids.
Now..how could that work? Leveling?
Well, not I want you Imagine something mind warping... imagine if Raids didn't start at End Game.. imagine.. they started at Mid Game.
So using your time in WoW, imagine if you could have started to raid at level 30 when the max was level 60. Now imagine that some of the loot you got from that level 30 raid, would still going to be viable for all the upcoming content, quests, raids, all of it.
Bet that sounds like something that could never happen.
Lets go a little deeper into that complex gear system.
Now, imagine a gear system so complex, that there is no BiS item, that some apparently piddly little named item that you by luck picked up on some side quest line at level 15, was going end up being viable to you for the rest of your game life, that you would continue to use it, long into those level 60 raids, and when the cap gets raised again.. that item, was going to still get used there as well.
Now imagine it is not game breaking powerful, it's just a little bauble, that has its use, and if you didn't have it, it's not the end of the world for you, for the most part, an inconvenience, but, equally so, it could be the difference between your life or death during an encounter.
Imagine a game that complex, where Raid gear, Challenge Gear, Quest Gear, all have their place, all are viable .. do you even think you could figure out how to make that happen?
Well.. I play that kind of MMO every night.
Which is why, I cannot fathom where you all are coming from.