Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.
As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).
...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.
in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.
if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.
Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.
Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear. If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.
See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people. .
I’m not sure I understand your post. I’m of the mind set that highend content be that PvP or PvE would give the best rewards. Maelstrom is the only solo content I’ve played that can be placed on par (if not higher) with the toughest of raids
As @Iselin stated my point was that the content should not be so narrowly applied.
The most challenging elements of a game really should not be isolated to little pockets of a finite type, as they simply do not need to be. You can create high-tier challenges for a broad variety of gaming, including even crafting.
The problem in this regard is how most games simply don't have that. The only end-game challenge ends up only catering to a single style of play, and things like WoW's scaled queues and even the Maelstrom Arena runs into issue with is that it's all "the same thing", just scaled a bit back and forth.
More components of the game and more styles of play and user experiences should be offered such depth. And that's where examples from Iselin and Kyleran come in.
Then there are other facets like what @Vermillion_Raventhal has been trying to get across (or at least as I have understood it), that individual activities can have more task-driven rewards. IE, raiding gear caters expressly to furthering the raiding experience and other systems have similarly uinqie gear to further their own respective experience.
We do have a bit of that, but it tends to cut itself short as PvE vs PvP gear rather than having any greater granularity catering to more unique styles of play therein, instead often falling into the strict sense of BiS and FotM where BiS could instead mean "This set is best for exploring this zone." or "This set is best for hunting/trapping for people trying to material farm."
Stuff like that does happen and has happened before, but even when it does/has it is often neglected and falls by the wayside as further content additions renders it all irrelevant again. And not in the "we added another tier to it" way, but the "well this one set is better at doing almost everything" way.
Ver's suggestion caters well to the idea of players being more specialized, having a strong leaning into specific play styles and roles that can exist as an interdependent community.
Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear. If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.
See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people. .
Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.
We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
Feel like @Vermillion_Raventhal may need to try and qualify his argument a little as it seems like there has been some degree of interpretation going on.
Like @Scot seems to be taking it to mean replacing raids, which I did not personally interpret it as such.
Flip side there being where Ver mentions he still thinks raiding should reward the best "raiding gear" as opposed to "BiS" gear.
The idea seems to rest more on the idea that at endgame there is no singular "BiS" and that int instead is dependent on which part of the game you wanna focus on, Much as there is PvE and PvP gear, it'd be specific to activities like "if you raid alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids" instead of "if you quest alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids".
Closest counterpoint to this subject I think I've seen would be the commentary about content like quests being easier to complete than a raid (and thus you don't need the raid gear), which kind of indicates another problem rather than actually being a/the solution.
Point then cycling to what I and others have noted, more elements of the game should offer the same kind of depth and challenges. Gear that you obtain for that challenge could/would then further your ability to progress along that content as the "BiS" for that activity.
At no point does that undermine the value of raids, and instead for the sake of people like Scot who are saying they want more group content, could open more types of group user experiences back up to being relevant and enjoyed by the userbase rather than neglected because the only meaningful rewards sits within such a finite scope of the content.
Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear. If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.
See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people. .
Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.
We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
Lol, it is not an assault on grouping. I always see people clutching their purses as soon as something different is suggested. Not sure how suggesting changing reward method and challenge being harder for solo and small groups will making the MMORPG "easy."
Grouping is dependent on game design not raiding which is a minority of the players and content for the most part.
Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
Actually quite the opposite.. it's about being able to put in the time.. in a manner I enjoy.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
I think most are find with raiders earning the best raiding gear. Just not the BiS gear. If raids were truly legendary events not repeat mode masochistic delight to have a boys club exclusives... sure give raids awesome stuff because it at least it would be a normal fun event.
See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people. .
Raids were only ever done by those with the time and dedication to do them. Other end game activities I am all for, as long as they do not supplant raids. But in this world of ever easier solo "multiplayer" MMORPG's, lets not throw away the only difficult and grouping element left in a genre stripped of difficulty, stripped of grouping. It is not as if there is nothing for players who do not want to raid, dailies and many other possibilities have been mentioned, but you want to get rid of raids.
We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
I would say the main point here, is I don't see a problem with a Cake-Walk MMO, where the raiders can go play some other game if they need challenge or whatever.
Personally, I think Raiders ruined GW2, which is a great example of a Cake-Walk MMO, done right, up till HoT. And then all these cry babies whined and complained about needing challenge and all that bullshit, so Anet gave them what they wanted, and this drove away the casuals, which in the end resulted in a massive loss of income, canceling all their other projects, and terminating half their staff to stay solvent.
So yah.. some MMO's should tell raiders to go fuck off and find another game.
I do not see any problem with that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.
As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).
...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.
in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.
if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.
Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.
too much?
Welcome to the forums! Not a bad first post, could use a touch of snarkiness, here, hold my beer and follow my lead...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Raids should have a % chance of dropped fixed loot for certain (but not all) classes/builds.
Raids should only drop certain item types / character armor/weapon slots, not all.
As an example, which has been done before, you can find a low level ring that gives a % boost to a stat, and you can use that ring forever; while at the same time you are upgrading your weapon(s) forever via drops(or raids).
...meanwhile, in the background developers need to start thinking outside the box in terms of the life of a game.
in terms of crafting ( i saw some mentions) - make crafting a skill orientated activity - like giving timed puzzles, where successful completion equates to the quality of your crafting ability and subsequent puzzles can be completed to determine the type of craft / quality of craft.
if kids are playing games, make them learn to type faster and faster > equates to a tier upgrade.
if kids are playing games, make them apply their homework ingame, solving maths or /insert 2nd level or 3 level course here = tier / profession upgrade.
Raids are not the problem. The problem is that the games have no ambition to last longer then 6 months. They need to fundamentally seperate different activities in order to attract a larger customer base. Oh, and there should be a fixed limit on weekly game time in order to limit botting.
too much?
Hi, Welcome to the forums.
... ya know.. when I read posts like this.. I just know we are all not playing the same games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Bad design results in millions of monthly revenue, for years. Spin off after spin off of said design go figure. Some people......need to stop thinking they know everything.
Or in spite of it... I can only speak for myself of course, but I quit Vanilla WoW when it became clear that the developers had no interest in releasing any substantial new content that wasn't the next raid (and I had run out of other things to do; literally, I even spent 2 months farming Rune Cloth so I could get an Epic Orgrimmar Wolf for my Forsaken Mage... those were the days).
I came back for TBC and stayed a while due to heroic dungeons and epic crafting but once again quit when raiding became the only thing left to do. I was talked into getting WotLK, got to cap and did a few things, but sure enough the pattern repeated, and at this point I was done, for good.
The next MMO I really sank time into was FFXIV ARR, which I enjoyed quite a lot... until they seemed to only be releasing new raids :facepalm: 'here we go again' I thought, and un-subbed. Fast forward a few years and I'm back playing FFXIV, not for the raiding though (or any of the 'gear grinds' really), instead I play for the world, the story, the gameplay, any long-term progression, and the people I know and meet in-game.
Now of course I know that grinds do keep people around and playing, and that challenging raids attract a certain hardcore audience that can add a lot to the game, but when the focus of a game is (or becomes) raiding, raiding, and nothing but raiding, it makes the rest of the game (which is where the majority of the player base hangs out*) very stale.
* Even for the most prolific Japanese (JP) FFXIV raiding servers’ Savage Raid clear rates are estimated to only be about 25%. This quickly drops to around 10% (or less) for the top NA and EU servers, and for most JP servers. The vast majority of NA and EU servers (which are also the most populated) have estimated clear rates of less than 5%.
well, if you are talking about die hard raider that beat the last boss the number is probably less than 1 % lol. No shit they should get the best gear in the game.
That being said, most developer probably agree with the OP. Since I don't see many games raid lock the best gear in raid. OP is probably just talking about Wow since it is the big dog. Even in wow, you can get comparable gear in pvp.
i see you dont play much games
the main reason raids have the best gear is simple if not no one would do the raids, save for the try hard raiders who love to work like a bot
Ya, I don't play much game. I'm an addicted gamer but I play one game at a time.
That being said, I'm trying very hard to find games which raid lock gear(by reading online). But having a hard time find any beside wow. I think most developers do agree with the OP. Not to mention most studio probably didn't invest as much time developing their raid content.
So which mmorpg raid lock best pve gear beside wow?
Anyway I look forward to the next thread where people who don't want to put the time in want all the rewards, sorry guys but that's what this sounds like when you boil it down.
Ya, im done here too. Alot of these posts are just plain retarded. The original question was should gear be locked, yes. Thats it. Those stats on said gear are needed to push content, not kill mobs. Don't like it? Don't play it? I know I don't play games I dont enjoy. Know what I don't do? Run to a forum to knock a fair system. If you don't think its fair, your entitled. All these games offer accesible gear thats far more powerful then you need as a non raider.
These nay sayers are scorned for some reason. Its a shame, that they cant just be happy for others. Most games dont require you to raid at all, and have a plethora of activities to keep people logging in. Since WOW is forever brought up, crafting is important in WOW (I know cause that was my gold income for years) cause it enables gearing alts easy or selling said gear for gold or to make pets/mounts/toys, to maybe even buy raid runs, pet collection, achievement hunting, fashion shows.......the list goes on. Many other mmo's follow suit because its a great formula, if it doesnt work for you thats on you. Theres a couple posters here just like to read what they write cause they consider it intelligent and informative, when the reality is there not actually applying anything. They keep screaming "Be innovative devs" when there already working hard on keeping the current system maintained. Running in circles with there heads cut off screaming the sky is falling. Were talking mainstream games, im sure theres some indie games that will suit your needs.
Im a believer in not knocking something unless you can do it better. (within reason) Maybe this band of entitled people should ban together, get there own ip and make there kinda game. Leave the developers to decide, cause obviously how huge the market is, how huge its growing, its working.
JELLO has been enjoyed for a very long time, same formula,still enjoyed. Not everyone likes JELLO, theres been nothing revolutionary about JELLO over the years, but its still great stuff. Enjoyed by millions. How does this relate? Because why mess with a formula that proves effective?
Honestly, a few people in here need to leave mmo's behind. Or gaming in general.
I don't really think there should be alternate paths to the best gear for raiding outside raiding. It is a huge mistake that WoW made and continues to make. I think that the best gear in any MMO should come from the hardest content to complete, so typically raiding. I don't really think dungeons should ever give the best gear personally, but they should have their own viable progression path for those who want to just do dungeons. (Multiple tiers of them, NOT M+ style though) PvP gear should only really be strong in PvP, but should still be reasonable enough to do some easier PvE content with to work towards the other gear in those types of content. But PvP gear should also always be the best gear in PvP as well. Raid level gear should be on par with pretty good PvP gear though, but it should never be the best.
Raids exist as a really strong way to create social groups and I don't really think that you can get that kind of experience with smaller numbers of players just due to the sheer nature of everything that takes smaller numbers being much more puggable. Sure, you can pug raids as well, but most people would probably rather have a guild then deal with that if they are challenging enough.
One common misconception these days is that gear "shouldn't matter" and that it should only be cosmetic type rewards for the hardest content. I STRONGLY disagree with this concept. Not everyone can get the best gear or should be able to. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Just like how not everyone should be able to do the hardest content in the game. (AKA, Raids shouldn't have 4 difficulties, they should have 2 at the most)
Regarding your own posts example of WoW crafting, for example, it can be noted how much of the reason you could make money off crafting was because you could trade the things you craft. IE, it was an activity that played a role in the extended game world and economy. Does raiding? No, it's a microcosm activity. An isolated circuit for a finite amount of people to grind that often does not play into the greater community or economy.
So sure, you wanna say crafting is an alternative? Then can we not take a moment to consider too how many things you mentioned about crafting are themselves rendered somewhat irrelevant when people grind out heirloom sets for alt leveling instead of crafting leveled sets?
Or more so, how if someone does want many of those things, they can participate in the user economy to use money and resources they gather from their preferred part of the game to trade for items they want from a crafter that has been participating in a different part of the game?
It's almost as if your own example shows already a better concept where player economy can take a role in letting players flexibly enjoy the facets of a title they want while still having a shot at obtaining anything they want as long as they are willing to invest into the player economy and ply themselves to scrape together however much it'd cost them.
But acknowledging that would also mean you'd have to acknowledge just how ironic it is for you to chide others when your entire argument is built on elitism.
EDIT: Also of note, you outright lied in your post about what the original question was. Going back to the first page we can see that the question wasn't if raid gear should be locked behind raids.
IE, should other progression tracks have their own equivalent reward tracks. You can feel free to keep raid gear exclusive to raids, but that does not answer the question of if other forms of gameplay should have their own meaningful rewards and content.
When there is only one source of endgame gear, because the developers neglect every form of endgame content save for one track, that can be seen quite clearly as an issue because it means once all is said and done that once most players not interested in raids hit the endgame, they are out of content. Not just for earning gear, but to enjoy in general.
This constant move to misrepresent things and denigrate them instead of giving any real critical thought, to insult the dialogue and opinions of others without ever even pausing to actually know what they are saying, and substituting your own fake strawmen to rant at, is not reasonable or mature.
To my mind its simple math that there should be more then 1 way | 1 aspect to end game content (leveling; gearing) in order to appeal to the maximum player base. Whether that is Raids, Crafting, PvP or otherwise is irrelevant, the more the better (and yes, i said, leveling as a result of crafting/pvp).
edit...and yes items should drop and by extension, pay to win should exist. While there are many (types of) games that dont have items as a feature, personalisation is a key component that casual players (to my mind) look for.
I honestly see so many opportunities to make these games more appealing to a far wider playerbase, and this arguement can also be used for the OP's comments.
Raiding can be -- and in most cases is a huge part of an MMO community even if not too many people do it compared to the amount of people who don't. I feel like crafting is one of those systems that doesn't work quite so well in a raiding environment , but it can be done reasonably. You can craft consumables for raiders, you can craft one or two off pieces that take (tradeable) dropped materials from the raids that you can buy off the market,ect. Those kind of things tie very much directly into raiding. Crafting shouldn't get you the best gear in the game though unless it requires the same level of challenge as the hardest content in the game -- or it's a sandbox MMO. Based on what I just said as well, raiding has a HUGE impact on the economy.
I also don't really think it is fair to say that someone who thinks that the best gear in a game should come from the hardest is being elitist. That is just how it should work. Gear is not everything, but it should always have value. The second you remove that value (IE: Make it so you can grind ore in a zone for several hours a day and get the same equipment as someone who worked together with 9-19 other people taking collectively hundreds of hours to earn) is when gear becomes a boring and meaningless part of the game that no one cares about at all.
You don't need to be able to get the best rewards in the game in order to enjoy it. Most people don't and still play. The journey of an MMO is important and if you can't raid for whatever reason right now -- maybe you will have an opportunity to in the future. There is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with going back and doing older raids now that there are new raids and enjoying them that way through minor catch up mechanics without completely resetting the items in the game every raid tier. (This is the way it largely worked in WoW from Vanilla - end of Wrath) Funnily enough, if you start to map out when WoW started losing most of it's players..it started happening when the game became more "everyone can experience everything!" mentality.
There should always be a desire to do content that you can't always do because of time constraints or lack of skill. This creates a compelling reason to keep playing. Maybe this summer I will have time to raid or this new guild I am in is gonna casually raid soon! Maybe I have been playing long enough to feel good enough at the game to raid or maybe I am suddenly inspired to do all these things. If you don't have enough time to commit to a small window once a week to slowly progress through raid content, honestly you don't have time for MMOs in the first place.
If you don't create that desire to aspire to be better / conquer harder content, you just don't create the social bonds that make MMOs really great and keep people playing. It is pretty easy to say that someone who can't raid just hits end game and stops just before raiding. That isn't really true, as any reasonably good MMO will have progression that doesn't shove you right into raids. This is the great part about something like vanilla WoW; you hit end game but you still had a few months potentially of gearing before you had to do raids to get better gear. Obviously there were mistakes made (Raid gear decimating PvP), but the core stuff is there. The idea would be that if you can raid, you do that and get better gear then the dungeons anyways. People who don't aren't really missing out until the gear grind dries up and they can't raid. At this point they would ideally have friends to help them get into alt runs for guild raids, more casual guilds to raid,ect. If not -- they can play alts, they can PvP, or maybe they can work there way towards buying up a few of the raid drops that are tradeable. If you aren't raiding, why do you need gear that you only need....for raiding? Isn't your whole point that once gear dries up there is no reason to keep playing? The same exact thing happens -- and has happened for years now in WoW WITH raiding being accessible. Sure, they can't always get the best gear, but they get to complete all the raid content on a version that is usually just lower numbers. Does that really make the game better? All you are doing is moving the goal posts in this scenario and making the whole progression of the game less interesting for everyone.
Games like ESO and GW2 are good examples of this problem. Both have raiding, but both are largely focused on cosmetic progression. Notice I didn't say horizontal, as that would imply they were both constantly adding new gameplay options to progress towards. GW2 only really does this with new mounts these days and ESO doesn't really do it at all. Both of these games are largely treated, at least from my perspective, as short term --jump in when there is a large update every quarter, maybe less, and play it for a couple weeks then jump back out--. This is perfectly fine and both of these games are good in their own right, but they just don't create the same social structure that vertical progression based on overcoming challenging content has.
Regarding your own posts example of WoW crafting, for example, it can be noted how much of the reason you could make money off crafting was because you could trade the things you craft. IE, it was an activity that played a role in the extended game world and economy. Does raiding? No, it's a microcosm activity. An isolated circuit for a finite amount of people to grind that often does not play into the greater community or economy.
So sure, you wanna say crafting is an alternative? Then can we not take a moment to consider too how many things you mentioned about crafting are themselves rendered somewhat irrelevant when people grind out heirloom sets for alt leveling instead of crafting leveled sets?
Or more so, how if someone does want many of those things, they can participate in the user economy to use money and resources they gather from their preferred part of the game to trade for items they want from a crafter that has been participating in a different part of the game?
It's almost as if your own example shows already a better concept where player economy can take a role in letting players flexibly enjoy the facets of a title they want while still having a shot at obtaining anything they want as long as they are willing to invest into the player economy and ply themselves to scrape together however much it'd cost them.
But acknowledging that would also mean you'd have to acknowledge just how ironic it is for you to chide others when your entire argument is built on elitism.
EDIT: Also of note, you outright lied in your post about what the original question was. Going back to the first page we can see that the question wasn't if raid gear should be locked behind raids.
IE, should other progression tracks have their own equivalent reward tracks. You can feel free to keep raid gear exclusive to raids, but that does not answer the question of if other forms of gameplay should have their own meaningful rewards and content.
When there is only one source of endgame gear, because the developers neglect every form of endgame content save for one track, that can be seen quite clearly as an issue because it means once all is said and done that once most players not interested in raids hit the endgame, they are out of content. Not just for earning gear, but to enjoy in general.
This constant move to misrepresent things and denigrate them instead of giving any real critical thought, to insult the dialogue and opinions of others without ever even pausing to actually know what they are saying, and substituting your own fake strawmen to rant at, is not reasonable or mature.
Long post by yet another person who doesn't read what they are responding to and makes up an unrelated response instead.
You seem to be conflating some things. Raiding can be one of the loudest parts of an MMO community, if only because they are the only ones with anything to do at endgame. They are rarely ever the "largest" part of any game. The very fact they never actually break a quarter of the size of any community will always note as much. They are simply an aggressive and vocal minority.
And crafting should have to find a niche to cater to raiding, it should be a community element, something a swathe of people can interact with and benefit from.
In addition to this, please don't do the same nonsensical straw-man comments as others like the one I responded to. Like this;
"I also don't really think it is fair to say that someone who thinks that the best gear in a game should come from the hardest is being elitist."
This, is not what was said. Them wanting endgame content to only be delivered through raids, is elitist. That's what was said. The solution, and what the OP of this thread even suggested in their initial post, was that there shouldn't be a universal BiS, which by default makes it so raids are not the generic BiS because they would then only be BiS for raiding.
But instead of addressing that concept, a concept that was discussed in the very post you quoted, you just chose to talk about BiS as if there can only be one BiS for all of game content.
There, I even re-added the post for you so you can actually read it this time instead of quoting and immediately snipping it.
Much of the rest of your post, ironically, does and does not get the point at the same time. You talk about how games should reward challenge, but you fail to realize that we've been discussing how challenge in game content should be extended past just raids. IE, make deeper progression in other parts of the game for people to enjoy at endgame.
How is it that no matter how many times these two concepts are stated, people like you keep pulling up entirely fictional arguments to poke at instead? Hell, how is it that you even responded to a post that discusses these two points at length, and even expressly corrects the fact that no one is saying you should earn gear without an appropriate challenge, yet you failed to grasp any of that?
Also you're rather inaccurate regarding WoW's decline. It's been doing that for a LOOOOOONG time very slowly, and that began well before they did any shift to accommodating a broader scope of players, which they have also failed at sustaining time and again, which is part of the real root problem there as to why they are losing subs faster nowadays.
You respond with another post like that and I'm more than willing to bet I can just start linking old comments that directly addresses your posts, knowing full well you hadn't bothered to read them even though they would have curtailed this nonsense if you had.
There should always be a desire to do content that you can't always do because of time constraints or lack of skill.
Desire can only sustain someone for so long, sooner or later they actually need something tangible. (And that's assuming the desire is even there to begin with, as many raid designs, e.g. learning the dance steps to a 100% scripted encounter, do not necessarily appeal).
Also, with regards to the decline of WoW, from my perspective the beginning of the end was WotLK, as it was the third time Blizzard had made the end-game 'raid or die' (despite calls since Vanilla for more varied end-game content)... i.e. Blizzard had made it more than clear by this point that if you didn't like raiding then WoW simply wasn't the game for you. OK, fine, have fun, see you later (though probably not) …
For Blizzard to then switch gears was silly (IMO), as now the game wasn't (necessarily) for the hardcore raiding crowd either… and as someone who had left, but had wanted more end-game dungeons, and had called for more accessible raids since Vanilla, I simply didn't care anymore, I was no longer invested, and I wasn't coming back.
One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.
It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.
The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.
It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.
The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
That rather misses the point yet again, that other elements of the game should have comparative focus, not genericization or lowest "common denominator".
How many times in posts now have others stated increasing the standards and challenges other elements of the game can present? How do you go from that often stated preference to claiming it is asking for the "lowest common denominator"?
One thing you keep hearing here is how raids are for the minority of players, sure and that's not a bad thing. Making a game for the lowest common denominator is the design philosophy of todays MMORPG's. It encourages classes with no difference between them, no meaningful choices, solo to top level and the likes of dailies...preferably dailies that can be done in ten minutes.
It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.
The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
That rather misses the point yet again, that other elements of the game should have comparative focus, not genericization or lowest "common denominator".
How many times in posts now have others stated increasing the standards and challenges other elements of the game can present? How do you go from that often stated preference to claiming it is asking for the "lowest common denominator"?
Do you have an honest argument?
I mentioned what the design philosophy of MMOs mostly now is
as it seems to be something some posters are leaning to here. I saw the remarks
about challenges, that’s why I said "By all means have some difficult solo
player quests at top level and so on", but I am concerned that the OP
wants to ditch raids, he uses expressions like "boys club" and so on.
For me we could make raids better, how about more stages making it easier for
players to get into raiding, that's a direction you will find most raiders favour.
I think my arguments on here have all been honest, but you seem to think I am
talking to every poster on here equally that is not the case.
The increasing challenge you talk of is not a direction MMO designers will be
happy to go in, they do seem to accept the handed down wisdom that games must
get ever easier. That affects those launched too and is why the classic servers
now coming out are all harder.
I liked the idea of some solo hard questing, it is just an extension
of normal questing though and as such should not be on a par with raids
but might be good for making you raid ready. Lotro did some good 3 avatar group
scenarios, they had some decent rewards but were an adjunct to raiding, that
sort of thing works well.
Finally, the history of MMOs has been to take away game play
that was once thought essential and not give us much or indeed anything in
return. Many MMOs now do not have raids, housing, crafting of any note or grouping.
What have we got in return for that? I doubt many of you out there think the
likes of dailies are a good return on such lost content but maybe you do?
Comments
See there is some serious fear that raids would only be done by a small hardcore group who truly like doing them. It evident that raid unique aren't even enough to satisfy people.
.
The most challenging elements of a game really should not be isolated to little pockets of a finite type, as they simply do not need to be. You can create high-tier challenges for a broad variety of gaming, including even crafting.
The problem in this regard is how most games simply don't have that. The only end-game challenge ends up only catering to a single style of play, and things like WoW's scaled queues and even the Maelstrom Arena runs into issue with is that it's all "the same thing", just scaled a bit back and forth.
More components of the game and more styles of play and user experiences should be offered such depth. And that's where examples from Iselin and Kyleran come in.
Then there are other facets like what @Vermillion_Raventhal has been trying to get across (or at least as I have understood it), that individual activities can have more task-driven rewards. IE, raiding gear caters expressly to furthering the raiding experience and other systems have similarly uinqie gear to further their own respective experience.
We do have a bit of that, but it tends to cut itself short as PvE vs PvP gear rather than having any greater granularity catering to more unique styles of play therein, instead often falling into the strict sense of BiS and FotM where BiS could instead mean "This set is best for exploring this zone." or "This set is best for hunting/trapping for people trying to material farm."
Stuff like that does happen and has happened before, but even when it does/has it is often neglected and falls by the wayside as further content additions renders it all irrelevant again. And not in the "we added another tier to it" way, but the "well this one set is better at doing almost everything" way.
Ver's suggestion caters well to the idea of players being more specialized, having a strong leaning into specific play styles and roles that can exist as an interdependent community.
We don't need more "fun" in MMOs, that's nearly enough the sole principle around which they are designed. Where's the competition, the feeling of achievement? Give those who want to do more something to achieve, taking time to train together, why do you want to take that away from them? Do players want a cake walk from start to finish, must gaming only be designed for the "I hope it has meaningful play if I log on for only 10 mins a day crowd"?
Like @Scot seems to be taking it to mean replacing raids, which I did not personally interpret it as such.
Flip side there being where Ver mentions he still thinks raiding should reward the best "raiding gear" as opposed to "BiS" gear.
The idea seems to rest more on the idea that at endgame there is no singular "BiS" and that int instead is dependent on which part of the game you wanna focus on, Much as there is PvE and PvP gear, it'd be specific to activities like "if you raid alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids" instead of "if you quest alot, then you want the gear from endgame raids".
Closest counterpoint to this subject I think I've seen would be the commentary about content like quests being easier to complete than a raid (and thus you don't need the raid gear), which kind of indicates another problem rather than actually being a/the solution.
Point then cycling to what I and others have noted, more elements of the game should offer the same kind of depth and challenges. Gear that you obtain for that challenge could/would then further your ability to progress along that content as the "BiS" for that activity.
At no point does that undermine the value of raids, and instead for the sake of people like Scot who are saying they want more group content, could open more types of group user experiences back up to being relevant and enjoyed by the userbase rather than neglected because the only meaningful rewards sits within such a finite scope of the content.
Grouping is dependent on game design not raiding which is a minority of the players and content for the most part.
Personally, I think Raiders ruined GW2, which is a great example of a Cake-Walk MMO, done right, up till HoT. And then all these cry babies whined and complained about needing challenge and all that bullshit, so Anet gave them what they wanted, and this drove away the casuals, which in the end resulted in a massive loss of income, canceling all their other projects, and terminating half their staff to stay solvent.
So yah.. some MMO's should tell raiders to go fuck off and find another game.
I do not see any problem with that.
.
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"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
... ya know.. when I read posts like this.. I just know we are all not playing the same games.
I came back for TBC and stayed a while due to heroic dungeons and epic crafting but once again quit when raiding became the only thing left to do. I was talked into getting WotLK, got to cap and did a few things, but sure enough the pattern repeated, and at this point I was done, for good.
The next MMO I really sank time into was FFXIV ARR, which I enjoyed quite a lot... until they seemed to only be releasing new raids :facepalm: 'here we go again' I thought, and un-subbed. Fast forward a few years and I'm back playing FFXIV, not for the raiding though (or any of the 'gear grinds' really), instead I play for the world, the story, the gameplay, any long-term progression, and the people I know and meet in-game.
Now of course I know that grinds do keep people around and playing, and that challenging raids attract a certain hardcore audience that can add a lot to the game, but when the focus of a game is (or becomes) raiding, raiding, and nothing but raiding, it makes the rest of the game (which is where the majority of the player base hangs out*) very stale.
* Even for the most prolific Japanese (JP) FFXIV raiding servers’ Savage Raid clear rates are estimated to only be about 25%. This quickly drops to around 10% (or less) for the top NA and EU servers, and for most JP servers. The vast majority of NA and EU servers (which are also the most populated) have estimated clear rates of less than 5%.
That being said, I'm trying very hard to find games which raid lock gear(by reading online). But having a hard time find any beside wow. I think most developers do agree with the OP. Not to mention most studio probably didn't invest as much time developing their raid content.
So which mmorpg raid lock best pve gear beside wow?
These nay sayers are scorned for some reason. Its a shame, that they cant just be happy for others. Most games dont require you to raid at all, and have a plethora of activities to keep people logging in. Since WOW is forever brought up, crafting is important in WOW (I know cause that was my gold income for years) cause it enables gearing alts easy or selling said gear for gold or to make pets/mounts/toys, to maybe even buy raid runs, pet collection, achievement hunting, fashion shows.......the list goes on. Many other mmo's follow suit because its a great formula, if it doesnt work for you thats on you. Theres a couple posters here just like to read what they write cause they consider it intelligent and informative, when the reality is there not actually applying anything. They keep screaming "Be innovative devs" when there already working hard on keeping the current system maintained. Running in circles with there heads cut off screaming the sky is falling. Were talking mainstream games, im sure theres some indie games that will suit your needs.
Im a believer in not knocking something unless you can do it better. (within reason) Maybe this band of entitled people should ban together, get there own ip and make there kinda game. Leave the developers to decide, cause obviously how huge the market is, how huge its growing, its working.
JELLO has been enjoyed for a very long time, same formula,still enjoyed. Not everyone likes JELLO, theres been nothing revolutionary about JELLO over the years, but its still great stuff. Enjoyed by millions. How does this relate? Because why mess with a formula that proves effective?
Honestly, a few people in here need to leave mmo's behind. Or gaming in general.
Regarding your own posts example of WoW crafting, for example, it can be noted how much of the reason you could make money off crafting was because you could trade the things you craft. IE, it was an activity that played a role in the extended game world and economy. Does raiding? No, it's a microcosm activity. An isolated circuit for a finite amount of people to grind that often does not play into the greater community or economy.
So sure, you wanna say crafting is an alternative? Then can we not take a moment to consider too how many things you mentioned about crafting are themselves rendered somewhat irrelevant when people grind out heirloom sets for alt leveling instead of crafting leveled sets?
Or more so, how if someone does want many of those things, they can participate in the user economy to use money and resources they gather from their preferred part of the game to trade for items they want from a crafter that has been participating in a different part of the game?
It's almost as if your own example shows already a better concept where player economy can take a role in letting players flexibly enjoy the facets of a title they want while still having a shot at obtaining anything they want as long as they are willing to invest into the player economy and ply themselves to scrape together however much it'd cost them.
But acknowledging that would also mean you'd have to acknowledge just how ironic it is for you to chide others when your entire argument is built on elitism.
EDIT: Also of note, you outright lied in your post about what the original question was. Going back to the first page we can see that the question wasn't if raid gear should be locked behind raids.
It was "Should their raid level gear for people who are into PvP, quest completionist or crafting?"
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/481722/why-is-gear-raid-locked-if-a-small-percentage-of-players-raid#LVueJ7KvwT2kjlbo.99
IE, should other progression tracks have their own equivalent reward tracks. You can feel free to keep raid gear exclusive to raids, but that does not answer the question of if other forms of gameplay should have their own meaningful rewards and content.
When there is only one source of endgame gear, because the developers neglect every form of endgame content save for one track, that can be seen quite clearly as an issue because it means once all is said and done that once most players not interested in raids hit the endgame, they are out of content. Not just for earning gear, but to enjoy in general.
This constant move to misrepresent things and denigrate them instead of giving any real critical thought, to insult the dialogue and opinions of others without ever even pausing to actually know what they are saying, and substituting your own fake strawmen to rant at, is not reasonable or mature.
And crafting should have to find a niche to cater to raiding, it should be a community element, something a swathe of people can interact with and benefit from.
In addition to this, please don't do the same nonsensical straw-man comments as others like the one I responded to. Like this;
"I also don't really think it is fair to say that someone who thinks that the best gear in a game should come from the hardest is being elitist."
This, is not what was said. Them wanting endgame content to only be delivered through raids, is elitist. That's what was said. The solution, and what the OP of this thread even suggested in their initial post, was that there shouldn't be a universal BiS, which by default makes it so raids are not the generic BiS because they would then only be BiS for raiding.
But instead of addressing that concept, a concept that was discussed in the very post you quoted, you just chose to talk about BiS as if there can only be one BiS for all of game content.
There, I even re-added the post for you so you can actually read it this time instead of quoting and immediately snipping it.
Much of the rest of your post, ironically, does and does not get the point at the same time. You talk about how games should reward challenge, but you fail to realize that we've been discussing how challenge in game content should be extended past just raids. IE, make deeper progression in other parts of the game for people to enjoy at endgame.
How is it that no matter how many times these two concepts are stated, people like you keep pulling up entirely fictional arguments to poke at instead? Hell, how is it that you even responded to a post that discusses these two points at length, and even expressly corrects the fact that no one is saying you should earn gear without an appropriate challenge, yet you failed to grasp any of that?
Also you're rather inaccurate regarding WoW's decline. It's been doing that for a LOOOOOONG time very slowly, and that began well before they did any shift to accommodating a broader scope of players, which they have also failed at sustaining time and again, which is part of the real root problem there as to why they are losing subs faster nowadays.
You respond with another post like that and I'm more than willing to bet I can just start linking old comments that directly addresses your posts, knowing full well you hadn't bothered to read them even though they would have curtailed this nonsense if you had.
Also, with regards to the decline of WoW, from my perspective the beginning of the end was WotLK, as it was the third time Blizzard had made the end-game 'raid or die' (despite calls since Vanilla for more varied end-game content)... i.e. Blizzard had made it more than clear by this point that if you didn't like raiding then WoW simply wasn't the game for you. OK, fine, have fun, see you later (though probably not) …
For Blizzard to then switch gears was silly (IMO), as now the game wasn't (necessarily) for the hardcore raiding crowd either… and as someone who had left, but had wanted more end-game dungeons, and had called for more accessible raids since Vanilla, I simply didn't care anymore, I was no longer invested, and I wasn't coming back.
It encourages poor design in my eyes which caters to those who can be in game the least amount of time and gives nothing to those who can spend longer. By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on, just don't use those to replace the only solid grouping gameplay left in MMOs.
The only time I have crafted in a MMORPG is when the guild needed a crafter, it is not to my taste. But I won't come on here saying how we need to do away with crafting or replace it with something more "fun", well more "fun" to me anyway regardless of what all the crafters think.
How many times in posts now have others stated increasing the standards and challenges other elements of the game can present? How do you go from that often stated preference to claiming it is asking for the "lowest common denominator"?
Do you have an honest argument?
I mentioned what the design philosophy of MMOs mostly now is as it seems to be something some posters are leaning to here. I saw the remarks about challenges, that’s why I said "By all means have some difficult solo player quests at top level and so on", but I am concerned that the OP wants to ditch raids, he uses expressions like "boys club" and so on. For me we could make raids better, how about more stages making it easier for players to get into raiding, that's a direction you will find most raiders favour.
I think my arguments on here have all been honest, but you seem to think I am talking to every poster on here equally that is not the case.
The increasing challenge you talk of is not a direction MMO designers will be happy to go in, they do seem to accept the handed down wisdom that games must get ever easier. That affects those launched too and is why the classic servers now coming out are all harder.
I liked the idea of some solo hard questing, it is just an extension of normal questing though and as such should not be on a par with raids but might be good for making you raid ready. Lotro did some good 3 avatar group scenarios, they had some decent rewards but were an adjunct to raiding, that sort of thing works well.
Finally, the history of MMOs has been to take away game play that was once thought essential and not give us much or indeed anything in return. Many MMOs now do not have raids, housing, crafting of any note or grouping. What have we got in return for that? I doubt many of you out there think the likes of dailies are a good return on such lost content but maybe you do?