WoW seems to be on a journey or more and more simplification. Fewer stats. Fewer skill tree choices. Fewer abilities. And now fewer levels. I wonder what the future holds? Because this trend isn't slowing down.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
id rather see a Universe Of Warcraft/warcraft universe (blizzard u can use those names i dont mind), aka WOW 2.0. current wow will probably be simplified to a point you can run it on your phone. cause we all have phones right? /rant over
new mmo already. this game can't last forever. lost its luster for me a long time ago. too many dumb over casualized design choices. there's a difference between accessible and just plain watered down. leveling in this game is the most boring experience in gaming.
Ahh those pesky number labels. Where would RPGs be without those handy dandy indicators that yes indeed, you are much more powerful than you used to be? No need to be confused by the fact that the level 120 fight looks and feels so much like that old level 10 fight... YOU ARE MORE POWERFUL just look at that 120 for Pete's sake... it's clearly a bigger number than 10!
It's funny that Blizzard, the reigning champs of power creep, are having second thoughts and getting introspective about what it all means.
But like others have said in this thread, tread carefully blizz when you mess with familiar things that are near and dear to gamer's hearts.
I made a post about something related to this in the Diablo 3 reddit recently and man did I ever get downvoted lol. D3 has power creep on steroids like no other game. At level 1 you deal damage to mobs in double digit quantities and that's just fine to keep you moving along. But when you're doing content at the highest torment levels and you're geared to the teeth I have seen my own criticals deal more than 1 trillion damage on a single hit and the average normal damage is in the 100s of billions... I shit you not. And you need that damage if you want to keep going higher than GR100.
But apparently some D3 fans just love that and anyone who points out how ridiculous those numbers get needs to be silenced.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
WoW seems to be on a journey or more and more simplification. Fewer stats. Fewer skill tree choices. Fewer abilities. And now fewer levels. I wonder what the future holds? Because this trend isn't slowing down.
I am a firm believer that when you get too much bloat in your numbers (be it levels, skills, damage etc.) the artificiality of it all begins to show and it all becomes meaningless. Going from 10 to 100 damage means something. Going from 15.000.000 to 150.000.000 doesn't.
I am all for level squishing but it would require a complete redesign of the entire world, the distribution of skills and value on items as well. 50 levels would be more then enough, spread them evenly across all the content and re-evaluate all the gear in the game. All of a sudden going from level 48 to 49 means a hundred times more then going from 108 to 114 does. And don't forget, Blizz already squished damage once, and rightfully so.
Also, the fewer levels, the longer content stays meaningful, especially in the case of WoW and the amount of zones it has.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I view level squish as a failure in design. If I recognize now that I have a problem then I should have recognized then that it would be a problem. Part of the design process is knowing enough to design with the future and common problems in mind.
Stop bloating the game with "Moar levels, moar gearscore" and you won't have this problem.
I'm not even sure how one would go about this. Adding levels is one thing, but reducing them has ramifications for so much gear, content design, and everything. It's almost absurd to think about.
Frankly, levels are arbitrary to begin with, and may actually make games worse, especially MMOs.
Its a good thing you just post on forums and not actually work in that field
I'm not even sure how one would go about this. Adding levels is one thing, but reducing them has ramifications for so much gear, content design, and everything. It's almost absurd to think about.
Frankly, levels are arbitrary to begin with, and may actually make games worse, especially MMOs.
Its a good thing you just post on forums and not actually work in that field
When I left I think my highest character was 64 or so...I had no interest in returning because I didn't want to take the time to try and get to 120....That said though, it wouldn't be fair to those who have leveled their characters and spent the time and money.
The hate for numerical indicators of power seems misplaced- most humans enjoy having easy to understand indicators on such things. I don't see a good reason to leave the player guessing as to how powerful they are relative to monsters. I doubt many here would enjoy being completely blind to it themselves.... Running into a normal looking skeleton warrior only to be one-shotted into the ground because, whoops, it wasn't just ANY skeleton soldier that looked just like the others, this was a former knight! .... You just can't tell by looking.
We all want some indicator of our chances heading into a fight.
That said, 120 levels was always sort of ridiculous. As others have mentioned, "squishing" it may not be as simple as it seems.
The hate for numerical indicators of power seems misplaced- most humans enjoy having easy to understand indicators on such things. I don't see a good reason to leave the player guessing as to how powerful they are relative to monsters. I doubt many here would enjoy being completely blind to it themselves.... Running into a normal looking skeleton warrior only to be one-shotted into the ground because, whoops, it wasn't just ANY skeleton soldier that looked just like the others, this was a former knight! .... You just can't tell by looking.
We all want some indicator of our chances heading into a fight.
That said, 120 levels was always sort of ridiculous. As others have mentioned, "squishing" it may not be as simple as it seems.
In my case it's not so much hate as ridicule about how out of hand the numbers have gotten as well as the misplaced reverence for those numbers some have.
As far as indicators for whether you should take something on or not numbers is just one way to do it and MMORPGs have traditionally also done it with nameplate colors and other indicators (chevrons on health bars, etc.) Used for that purpose any indicator system is just as good as any other.
ESO has no mob levels but the health bar chevron system is good enough to let you know whether you'll be fighting a normal, strong, elite or boss mob.
The numbers are also silly as character power indicators. This is easily seen when you're fighting regular trash mobs at any level: it's the same fight. Sure your abilities now are not the same they were at level 10 and if the developers put in the effort, the level 120 trash may have a couple of AI moves that the level 10 mobs didn't. But the whole thing is balanced so that a level 120 character against a level 120 mobs deals with them just as efficiently in the same amount of time as a level 10 character dealt with level 10 mobs - the TTK is roughly the same. This is why it sounds so silly to me when players revere those numbers too much.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The hate for numerical indicators of power seems misplaced- most humans enjoy having easy to understand indicators on such things. I don't see a good reason to leave the player guessing as to how powerful they are relative to monsters. I doubt many here would enjoy being completely blind to it themselves.... Running into a normal looking skeleton warrior only to be one-shotted into the ground because, whoops, it wasn't just ANY skeleton soldier that looked just like the others, this was a former knight! .... You just can't tell by looking.
We all want some indicator of our chances heading into a fight.
That said, 120 levels was always sort of ridiculous. As others have mentioned, "squishing" it may not be as simple as it seems.
I really dislike conning systems and indicators(colors) etc on mobs , hence why UO and Vanguard(till the whiners fucked it up) are/were 2 of my favorite MMOs...
I much rather just jump into a fight and learn , much more fun imo
I think this is a great idea, pull the 1 tamerial ESO trick out.
Starting next xpac, reduce max level to 60, annd you can go from 1-60 from any xpac/base game zones you choose. Then once you hit 60, new max level you open up the current xpac, wwhich has a new level system seperate from the 1-60, maybe from 1-10,15,20? So they can add more talents and skills as you level thru the xpac. Then when the next xpac comes out, removes those 1-20 levels, and just add it as part of the 1-60 zones, and start another 1-20 level system.
As far as items go, minus anything unique (twinblades of azzintoh, windfury?) and have there item based on the level they were looted by. Each zone mob scale from 1-60, except world bosses keep them always 60.
1 Thing that kept me from alts, was leveling to 120, or 110, or 100, w/e the cap was. If they rolled out the game like this I would probably be subbed all year around. Lets go blizzard, get it down!
I would disagree with your assessment of the fights in level-based MMORPGs by holding up a rather FotM example: CoH. Level 50 fights are significantly different from level 10. Mobs get easier in terms of a 1 to 1 comparison of stats to the player, but it isn't some accidental by-product of using levels, it has to do with the enhancement system and a growth curve of the player's hero. It's intentional and shows the player avatar growing more powerful within the universe itself. The difficulty stays the same or gets higher because the game will give you more and tougher opponents- all in keeping with the idea that you're now a big time hero who gets charged with taking down the worst of the worst.
I agree with the idea behind your example, I'm just not sure I agree it's an inherent issue with numerical power indicators so much as a PvE balance issue that can exist in any system.
So for me, Blizzard doesn't necessarily need a level squish so much as a complete review of how they balance PvE content and the player's power curve. How can you include a player growth curve that doesn't seem like fighting the same AI with a different character model and a different number by their name?
In the end, the game's code reduces all down to numbers and equations. It's unavoidable, unless you go skill-based/twitch. And even then, you're mostly just passing the accuracy roll directly into the player's control.
Didn't read through all the comments but what would get me to play live WoW again would be if one expansion's progress carried over to the next and if that means capping the level then so be it. The level capped at 60 was what they originally planned to do before TBC but decided to raise it cause leveling up at that time was a selling factor, now I believe it is a deterrent. When you pay for an expansion + years of subscription then have your progress mean nothing after spending hundreds of dollars then repeat over and over that shit sticks in your subconscious as something negative IMO.
Didn't read through all the comments but what would get me to play live WoW again would be if one expansion's progress carried over to the next and if that means capping the level then so be it. The level capped at 60 was what they originally planned to do before TBC but decided to raise it cause leveling up at that time was a selling factor, now I believe it is a deterrent. When you pay for an expansion + years of subscription then have your progress mean nothing after spending hundreds of dollars then repeat over and over that shit sticks in your subconscious as something negative IMO.
Agreed. And yet I have seen negative reactions directed specifically at the fact that ESO does not add new content the WOW way... "just more of the same" they say.
I've always found the whole WOW expansion system reserved for max level players a pain in the butt. Nothing is worse than having your top tier pre-expansion gear become irrelevant and replaced by green drops 15 minutes into the new expansion content.
ESO has also done the gear bit well by keeping its max level pegged at the same CP160 for years with no plans in sight to ever raise it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I would disagree with your assessment of the fights in level-based MMORPGs by holding up a rather FotM example: CoH. Level 50 fights are significantly different from level 10. Mobs get easier in terms of a 1 to 1 comparison of stats to the player, but it isn't some accidental by-product of using levels, it has to do with the enhancement system and a growth curve of the player's hero. It's intentional and shows the player avatar growing more powerful within the universe itself. The difficulty stays the same or gets higher because the game will give you more and tougher opponents- all in keeping with the idea that you're now a big time hero who gets charged with taking down the worst of the worst.
I agree with the idea behind your example, I'm just not sure I agree it's an inherent issue with numerical power indicators so much as a PvE balance issue that can exist in any system.
So for me, Blizzard doesn't necessarily need a level squish so much as a complete review of how they balance PvE content and the player's power curve. How can you include a player growth curve that doesn't seem like fighting the same AI with a different character model and a different number by their name?
In the end, the game's code reduces all down to numbers and equations. It's unavoidable, unless you go skill-based/twitch. And even then, you're mostly just passing the accuracy roll directly into the player's control.
It's a matter of game design, not just balance, that can be done with levels, without levels, with partial scaling, with full scaling or with no scaling at all. There are a lot of possibilities if you're open minded and not married to the one way that you have become accustomed to.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I would disagree with your assessment of the fights in level-based MMORPGs by holding up a rather FotM example: CoH. Level 50 fights are significantly different from level 10. Mobs get easier in terms of a 1 to 1 comparison of stats to the player, but it isn't some accidental by-product of using levels, it has to do with the enhancement system and a growth curve of the player's hero. It's intentional and shows the player avatar growing more powerful within the universe itself. The difficulty stays the same or gets higher because the game will give you more and tougher opponents- all in keeping with the idea that you're now a big time hero who gets charged with taking down the worst of the worst.
I agree with the idea behind your example, I'm just not sure I agree it's an inherent issue with numerical power indicators so much as a PvE balance issue that can exist in any system.
So for me, Blizzard doesn't necessarily need a level squish so much as a complete review of how they balance PvE content and the player's power curve. How can you include a player growth curve that doesn't seem like fighting the same AI with a different character model and a different number by their name?
In the end, the game's code reduces all down to numbers and equations. It's unavoidable, unless you go skill-based/twitch. And even then, you're mostly just passing the accuracy roll directly into the player's control.
It's a matter of game design, not just balance, that can be done with levels, without levels, with partial scaling, with full scaling or with no scaling at all. There are a lot of possibilities if you're open minded and not married to the one way that you have become accustomed to.
I agree there. In the end, what you choose to do with the system you elect to use is far more important than whether the system gives the player feedback through a numerical system or something else. However, the constant is that players do want understandable feedback regarding what's happening to and with their characters. There's a sweet spot here between "I know exactly whether I'll make it through this fight or not" and "I have no clue what I'm even fighting, or how well I can even fight" that seems organic but clear.
I think we're drifting a little from the topic at hand. This would be an enjoyable discussion in its own thread, though.
Due to the way Blizzard has changed the importance of levels in general for WoW I would say that their is no need for levels at all. The game has become entirely dependent on gear score and as such should implement a simple tutorial for the beginning of the game and then treat all players as max level players. This would be the best option for players but due to the monetization Blizzard has in place for character boost they will most likely never go this route because it removes a source of income. This could be achieved by removing levels all together and just make everything into an achievement similar to how you unlock flying. You want to do the raid then link them in some way to completing the main quest line of an expansion.
Ultimately I believe that having a base level for vanilla (1-60) could be shortened to a tutorial. Something like level 1 to 10 or 20. After the tutorial you could then make every expansion have its own levels, independent from each expansion. The idea here would be after completing the tutorial you could start in any expansion but the levels you gain in a specific expansion would be exclusive for those areas. Each expansion could be represented by 10 levels but the levels would only be active in that expansions area. So if you level up to level 25 in Burning Crusade, you are still only level 20 in Wraith of the Lich King and Legion. This would allow new players to start the game immediately and be able to play with their friends. The problem I see with going their route would be a rework of how gear works as well because you wouldn't want someone who has completed any of the expansions to then have the best gear going into a new expansion. Most likely gear stats would also have to be tied to achievements. Complete mythic raid in one expansion and you receive a +X amount of stat on your gear for that expansion area.
Comments
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It's funny that Blizzard, the reigning champs of power creep, are having second thoughts and getting introspective about what it all means.
But like others have said in this thread, tread carefully blizz when you mess with familiar things that are near and dear to gamer's hearts.
I made a post about something related to this in the Diablo 3 reddit recently and man did I ever get downvoted lol. D3 has power creep on steroids like no other game. At level 1 you deal damage to mobs in double digit quantities and that's just fine to keep you moving along. But when you're doing content at the highest torment levels and you're geared to the teeth I have seen my own criticals deal more than 1 trillion damage on a single hit and the average normal damage is in the 100s of billions... I shit you not. And you need that damage if you want to keep going higher than GR100.
But apparently some D3 fans just love that and anyone who points out how ridiculous those numbers get needs to be silenced.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I am all for level squishing but it would require a complete redesign of the entire world, the distribution of skills and value on items as well. 50 levels would be more then enough, spread them evenly across all the content and re-evaluate all the gear in the game. All of a sudden going from level 48 to 49 means a hundred times more then going from 108 to 114 does. And don't forget, Blizz already squished damage once, and rightfully so.
Also, the fewer levels, the longer content stays meaningful, especially in the case of WoW and the amount of zones it has.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Stop bloating the game with "Moar levels, moar gearscore" and you won't have this problem.
Its a good thing you just post on forums and not actually work in that field
We all want some indicator of our chances heading into a fight.
That said, 120 levels was always sort of ridiculous. As others have mentioned, "squishing" it may not be as simple as it seems.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
As far as indicators for whether you should take something on or not numbers is just one way to do it and MMORPGs have traditionally also done it with nameplate colors and other indicators (chevrons on health bars, etc.) Used for that purpose any indicator system is just as good as any other.
ESO has no mob levels but the health bar chevron system is good enough to let you know whether you'll be fighting a normal, strong, elite or boss mob.
The numbers are also silly as character power indicators. This is easily seen when you're fighting regular trash mobs at any level: it's the same fight. Sure your abilities now are not the same they were at level 10 and if the developers put in the effort, the level 120 trash may have a couple of AI moves that the level 10 mobs didn't. But the whole thing is balanced so that a level 120 character against a level 120 mobs deals with them just as efficiently in the same amount of time as a level 10 character dealt with level 10 mobs - the TTK is roughly the same. This is why it sounds so silly to me when players revere those numbers too much.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Starting next xpac, reduce max level to 60, annd you can go from 1-60 from any xpac/base game zones you choose. Then once you hit 60, new max level you open up the current xpac, wwhich has a new level system seperate from the 1-60, maybe from 1-10,15,20? So they can add more talents and skills as you level thru the xpac. Then when the next xpac comes out, removes those 1-20 levels, and just add it as part of the 1-60 zones, and start another 1-20 level system.
As far as items go, minus anything unique (twinblades of azzintoh, windfury?) and have there item based on the level they were looted by. Each zone mob scale from 1-60, except world bosses keep them always 60.
1 Thing that kept me from alts, was leveling to 120, or 110, or 100, w/e the cap was. If they rolled out the game like this I would probably be subbed all year around. Lets go blizzard, get it down!
I would disagree with your assessment of the fights in level-based MMORPGs by holding up a rather FotM example: CoH. Level 50 fights are significantly different from level 10. Mobs get easier in terms of a 1 to 1 comparison of stats to the player, but it isn't some accidental by-product of using levels, it has to do with the enhancement system and a growth curve of the player's hero. It's intentional and shows the player avatar growing more powerful within the universe itself. The difficulty stays the same or gets higher because the game will give you more and tougher opponents- all in keeping with the idea that you're now a big time hero who gets charged with taking down the worst of the worst.
I agree with the idea behind your example, I'm just not sure I agree it's an inherent issue with numerical power indicators so much as a PvE balance issue that can exist in any system.
So for me, Blizzard doesn't necessarily need a level squish so much as a complete review of how they balance PvE content and the player's power curve. How can you include a player growth curve that doesn't seem like fighting the same AI with a different character model and a different number by their name?
In the end, the game's code reduces all down to numbers and equations. It's unavoidable, unless you go skill-based/twitch. And even then, you're mostly just passing the accuracy roll directly into the player's control.
I've always found the whole WOW expansion system reserved for max level players a pain in the butt. Nothing is worse than having your top tier pre-expansion gear become irrelevant and replaced by green drops 15 minutes into the new expansion content.
ESO has also done the gear bit well by keeping its max level pegged at the same CP160 for years with no plans in sight to ever raise it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think we're drifting a little from the topic at hand. This would be an enjoyable discussion in its own thread, though.
Ultimately I believe that having a base level for vanilla (1-60) could be shortened to a tutorial. Something like level 1 to 10 or 20. After the tutorial you could then make every expansion have its own levels, independent from each expansion. The idea here would be after completing the tutorial you could start in any expansion but the levels you gain in a specific expansion would be exclusive for those areas. Each expansion could be represented by 10 levels but the levels would only be active in that expansions area. So if you level up to level 25 in Burning Crusade, you are still only level 20 in Wraith of the Lich King and Legion. This would allow new players to start the game immediately and be able to play with their friends. The problem I see with going their route would be a rework of how gear works as well because you wouldn't want someone who has completed any of the expansions to then have the best gear going into a new expansion. Most likely gear stats would also have to be tied to achievements. Complete mythic raid in one expansion and you receive a +X amount of stat on your gear for that expansion area.