Procrastinate with graphics, How about content ?

delete5230

For me mmorpgs don’t have to be rocket science. The way I see it graphics are what's holding mass content back for Pantheon. I'm all for taking your time in development, but it seems its all about the graphics with a HUGE amount of flaws anyway. 

The way I see it two things are happening:

 1) The game

 2) The graphics

 

I'm trying to follow the game not the eye candy.  Lets be honest, Live streams are REALLY about graphics and small little test zones. Small little test zones !...... I'm starting to think everything they showed is all there is….. But hay, the shadows and textures are nice. Even if the game has years more development, their should be large chucks of content made already.  Maybe there is, maybe it's a secret…. But I don't think so.  Then you have the possibility of really taking their time and ten more years, but that would suck.    

 

This could have been the deep hold back of Vanguard too.  Beautiful graphics for it's time but with flaws.  Hold on investors, I'm not done. 

I'm older than most.  I've been in the work place for years "I've seen things man".  Often you see employees that look busy and can't produce. Most are smart people too but can't seem to get the work out, they get hung up on the details.  

 

Production ?

Scot

Graphics and animations take up the bulk of development time, but that's not going to change. Indie showed players can accept less than stellar graphics but don't count on players doing so. So it is a long wait, which builds expectations and in turn this will lead to disappointment. That's why it is better not to look at the Streams (which tell us what about any game in development anyway?) and not to look at dev blogs or anything like that.

The game will launch and you will not feel there has been an eternity of waiting so you will not expect the impossibly high standards that you would expect from a game that has taken way too long to come out.

delete5230

I would love to see in developers notes..... We have 14 of 27 zones completed.  Two more years. 

Amathe

From a poster who quit Project 1999 at level 6 because it "looks old." 

Kyleran

delete5230 said:

I would love to see in developers notes..... We have 14 of 27 zones completed.  Two more years. 

Uhh...yeah, that's isn't going to happen, nothing really holds these indie efforts to any sort of schedule. 

Well, except for the burn rate of course.

Pull up a chair and relax, this is going to take quite a while.

centkin

Well, for vanguard it was not the graphics but the systems.  They originally wanted some pretty grand things that never happened.  Diplomacy was going to be really important as opposed to the side game it became.

ChildoftheShadows

Procrastinate? Wtf?

delete5230

Amathe said:

From a poster who quit Project 1999 at level 6 because it "looks old." 

I know your a big fan. Great for you for having the EQ1 experience from back in the day.  You seem level headed, follow developer notes and cordially nice within the bounds of the advantage poster.  I on the other hand could be nasty, blunt and with bad grammar that can argue with everyone all at once..... Because of this we don't see eye to eye and most would be on your side. I'm not blind to this, seriously good for you !

BUT !!!..... Ironically we both want the same thing.



With that out of the way,
It's becoming more clear with the making of Pantheon the problems with Vanguard.

"Brad has his head up his butt and procrastinates" 

I think were all for "the vision"  But their are two visions going on here:
1) A great old school mmorpg
2) Tinkering with graphics to no end

We seem to have no choice but to sit on the sidelines and watch him tinker and play with graphics. Now you would say, it's his game, he owns it to do as he wants.  BUT were dragged into it by the early announcement so we can WATCH HIM TINKER WITH GRAPHICS !


@Amathe
Your a nice guy, I'm not.  I'm a realist and the elephant in the room.  If I see something, I say it.

It's crystal clear this is a public testing grounds for Visionary realms tinkering and we get to watch on the sidelines.... Maybe you don't mind.... But how can you not agree ?

Graveblade

One of the things about using an engine like unity (at least how it is now in 2019) is that you can sculpt out the zones pretty quick. Particularly with the new features. At least compared to a lot of engines or a custom engine.

For mmorpg's, I believe it's usually the systems that take the longest time. There are soooo many systems involved in mmorpg's that you need to architect out and iterate on. Both on the client and server. Things like animations and such are often times a fair bit later in the process.

If there is a game dev here and I'm off the mark then please correct me, but I believe this is generally the case for mmorpg's.

While it may very well put some people off seeing early footage which has very simplistic animations and graphics in some areas, anyone who isn't just jumping to conclusions and acting out of emotion should really be considering that the representation isn't final.

Amathe

@delete5230, can you please post the internal company documents VR sent you specifying the time and money they allocate to graphics, versus the time and money they devote to other aspects of game design and development?

Also, will you please share the accounting Brad gave you of what he does every day with his time, and how you calculate the amount of that time you claim is "procrastination?"

That way we can all share in the insider knowledge you seem to believe you have.

delete5230

Amathe said:

@delete5230, can you please post the internal company documents VR sent you specifying the time and money they allocate to graphics, versus the time and money they devote to other aspects of game design and development?

Also, will you please share the accounting Brad gave you of what he does every day with his time, and how you calculate the amount of that time you claim is "procrastination?"

That way we can all share in the insider knowledge you seem to believe you have.

You would think with large sums of crowed funding, larger prof of percent done would be more apparent..... You have to admit it's already YEARS in the making adding more years for the vision.

Obviously we only have what is given and thats their prerogative. We should also have the understanding a crowed funded project should be announced early if their to gather revenue, can't be blind to that fact.

But: 
We have test zones, small spotty ones at best.  Even within them, developers and us fans have to make tons of excuses for the flaws were seeing.  Calling it work in progress. 

Select few outside the development are invited only through loyalty to help test only because they are told to look past the flaws, deeper than we see...... It's apparent, this game in not even close.   

Also given every stream.... graphics and animation are at the forefront.... It turns out it's the only thing being discussed "testing".  How about fun ?.....none of the fun is their yet !

Were both big fans.... Your optimistic, believe it or not I am too. I'm simply saying their procrastinating.  It's been proven with the making of Vanguard too !... It's the root of all their problems.


It's like graphics first... then an mmorpg !
It's like Visionary Realms are using us to prove their graphic capability to themselves. 

Amathe

delete5230 said:

It's like graphics first... then an mmorpg ! 

You have not cited a shred of proof for this statement. As is your way.

Sure, we all wish the game was being made faster. But that is a different subject. You claim the game is being made slower than what you feel is optimal because of fixation with graphics. Says who? Based on what?

Once again, you just have two coconuts and are banging them together.

delete5230

Amathe said:

delete5230 said:

It's like graphics first... then an mmorpg ! 

You have not cited a shred of proof for this statement. As is your way.

Sure, we all wish the game was being made faster. But that is a different subject. You claim the game is being made slower than what you feel is optimal because of fixation with graphics. Says who? Based on what?

Once again, you just have two coconuts and are banging them together.

Well it's obvious that I can't prove the obvious .  It's the CATCH ALL for all subjects on this web site.  After all no one here has access for anything discussed here. 

Will have to have this discussion in two years when the game has yet to release. 

Kyleran

delete5230 said:

Amathe said:

delete5230 said:

It's like graphics first... then an mmorpg ! 

You have not cited a shred of proof for this statement. As is your way.

Sure, we all wish the game was being made faster. But that is a different subject. You claim the game is being made slower than what you feel is optimal because of fixation with graphics. Says who? Based on what?

Once again, you just have two coconuts and are banging them together.

Well it's obvious that I can't prove the obvious .  It's the CATCH ALL for all subjects on this web site.  After all no one here has access for anything discussed here. 

Will have to have this discussion in two years when the game has yet to release. 

I'd be surprised if it releases in under 3 years actually 

Amathe

delete5230 said:

Will have to have this discussion in two years when the game has yet to release. 

You are missing the point. Your own point, ironically.

The game may or may not be taking longer than is reasonable/desirable/marketable/whatever. Let's suppose it is. You then take it to the next level and outright make shit up as to the reason why. You claim there is too much attention to graphics. You claim Brad McQuaid "procrastinates." And then, when anyone asks you what you base that on, you go back to saying the game is taking years to make. That's circular reasoning, and proof of nothing.

For example, I say the game is taking as long as it is because little green men from Mars have taken over VR. What do I base that on? Well, the game is taking a long time so that must be it, no? See how silly that argument is?

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

Amathe said:

delete5230 said:

It's like graphics first... then an mmorpg ! 

You have not cited a shred of proof for this statement. As is your way.

Sure, we all wish the game was being made faster. But that is a different subject. You claim the game is being made slower than what you feel is optimal because of fixation with graphics. Says who? Based on what?

Once again, you just have two coconuts and are banging them together.

Well it's obvious that I can't prove the obvious .  It's the CATCH ALL for all subjects on this web site.  After all no one here has access for anything discussed here. 

Will have to have this discussion in two years when the game has yet to release. 

Why don't you relax, stop following it and if it releases it releases.

Also "realist" doesn't mean nice or "not nice guy."

delete5230

Amathe said:

delete5230 said:

Will have to have this discussion in two years when the game has yet to release. 

You are missing the point. Your own point, ironically.

The game may or may not be taking longer than is reasonable/desirable/marketable/whatever. Let's suppose it is. You then take it to the next level and outright make shit up as to the reason why. You claim there is too much attention to graphics. You claim Brad McQuaid "procrastinates." And then, when anyone asks you what you base that on, you go back to saying the game is taking years to make. That's circular reasoning, and proof of nothing.

For example, I say the game is taking as long as it is because little green men from Mars have taken over VR. What do I base that on? Well, the game is taking a long time so that must be it, no? See how silly that argument is?

The prof is in the sight.... three people see a yellow school bus hit a person at a cross walk, they even know his face. Its something obvious to three people, yet it's still faith on if to believe them or not. 

Being honest, I think im getting your point now.  It's not the graphics but more that I'm saying its Fact..... For that I apologize.  

Adamantine

I was recently truely shocked when I learned that Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (published in 2000), my favorite non-mmo computer game ever ... was developed in a mere TWO YEARS !!!

TWO. FRIGGIN. YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My FAVORITE NON-MMO COMPUTER GAME EVER !!!!!!

Thats the effect of not having to care for graphics. BG2 uses a simple isometric view with painted backgrounds. Sure you have to invest in graphics, too, but not as much.

Btw the new upcoming BG3 will also have isometric view. Obviously it will use a bit of 3D, too. Even BG2 already did that, in the details. But it wont be the main part of the development.

Btw in case you wonder, my favorite game ever is chess and my favorite computer game is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. A huge part of the appeal of the later is the social aspect. When it comes to the quality of story content, nothing touches BG2.

So, anyway, most of the time I dont care too much for graphic prettiness. Sure sometimes having a nice The Elder Scrolls with the latest and greatest graphics is nice, but after some times that gets old again.

So I hope they keep their whole "it should be playable on an old laptop" attitude with Pantheon.

P.s.: Oh, and if you can get over the isometric view restriction, thanks to its painted backgrounds, Baldurs Gate still looks pretty, even today. Just a bit tiiiiny. It was originaly 640x480 resolution !

Mendel

Adamantine said:

I was recently truely shocked when I learned that Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (published in 2000), my favorite non-mmo computer game ever ... was developed in a mere TWO YEARS !!!

TWO. FRIGGIN. YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My FAVORITE NON-MMO COMPUTER GAME EVER !!!!!!

Thats the effect of not having to care for graphics. BG2 uses a simple isometric view with painted backgrounds. Sure you have to invest in graphics, too, but not as much.

Btw the new upcoming BG3 will also have isometric view. Obviously it will use a bit of 3D, too. Even BG2 already did that, in the details. But it wont be the main part of the development.

Btw in case you wonder, my favorite game ever is chess and my favorite computer game is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. A huge part of the appeal of the later is the social aspect. When it comes to the quality of story content, nothing touches BG2.

So, anyway, most of the time I dont care too much for graphic prettiness. Sure sometimes having a nice The Elder Scrolls with the latest and greatest graphics is nice, but after some times that gets old again.

So I hope they keep their whole "it should be playable on an old laptop" attitude with Pantheon.

P.s.: Oh, and if you can get over the isometric view restriction, thanks to its painted backgrounds, Baldurs Gate still looks pretty, even today. Just a bit tiiiiny. It was originaly 640x480 resolution !

BGII only took 2 years; it would almost have been criminal if it had taken longer than that.  No need to develop new mechanics, BGI provided those.  About the only things they needed to do were to a) create background art, b) generate movement paths to work with the new backgrounds, and c) write new story elements.  No interface, few (if any, been awhile since I played BGII) character models, very little new voice over work, few new spells, etc.  Basically, all they needed to do was make new artwork and story and plug it into an existing game engine.

So, BGII may have been the easiest game to develop in the past 30 years.  Many of the difficult bits were already done.

svann

And chess took centuries to develop!

moshra

I think the real important question is, when are they gonna start developing Pantheon 2?

Theocritus

I'm really curious to see how this game does...It just doesn't look like it is going to appeal to the younger players.

Hawkaya399

Amathe said:

From a poster who quit Project 1999 at level 6 because it "looks old." 

Something I've always wondered about is whether this is completely generational, or do we all agree whatever age we're living in.

Utinni

Who cares about graphics when there's no game to play?

Adamantine

moshra said:

I think the real important question is, when are they gonna start developing Pantheon 2?

Hopefully never.

I dont like the idea that MMOs have successors.

EQ needed a successor because its graphics are really ugly. Newer MMORPGs, I dont think its necessary to remake them.

In any longrunning MMO there is a HUGE LOAD of functionality that will be gone if you start a new game.

delete5230

Theocritus said:

I'm really curious to see how this game does...It just doesn't look like it is going to appeal to the younger players.

I could agree on this.... Because its still in serious "graphics testing stage".... It's like they didn't even start yet.  Even that's not very good, things slide around like a Chess game.