Only thing I read was leveling is niche. I would say it's not. If anything leveling is spreading to other genre outside RPG. It works with the game as a service bit.
Funny thing is I like leveling most games outside of MMORPG. To me in MMORPG it is a limiting factor or irrelevant. Some of that is down to traditional implementation.
Sounds like another whining snowflake demanding everything right now to me.
I prefer "end game" mechanics over a level grind, but there is no end game without a level grind of some sort, whether it is a stat grind, a gear grind, spell progression grind, etc. What we are really talking about here is how op prefers sandbox games over holy trinity games. Even sandboxes have a progression.
tell me: a) where did I state that I want everything right now, I am curious to know b) where did I state I don't want progression, I am very curious about this one
you sound just like another asshole that tell lies.
There is something to say about change. Progression on a char does not need to be that long grind to get to end game content. ESO does a really good job of keeping you progressing while also letting you play with friends of any level and even let you run dungeons. Some out of the box thinking like this can go a long way. I dont mind leveling as long as its not 20 levels of killing rats and bugs and then another 20 levels to be able to do the basic job my class is called to do. Just my two cents on the matter.
Thank you. I like progression, but I would like it in such a way that it opens more opportunities - not reduce them. That is my issue with leveling. I don't say remove it, just create MMORPG that is really focused on a meaningful leveling - like Pantheon is doing it, where there is a need to do group content at early stages and where it is not just a rush to the end game.
Though, I find it hard to understand why levels are so popular. The progression can be that you need to acquire a weapon upgrade that enchants your weapon to deal fire damage so you can finally be able to fight ice monsters to progress into a zone after them. Or acquiring armor that negates burning damage over time so you can be able to pass through mountain filled with lava.
Or using a different kind of tactics to be able to reach gathering node with a rare material so you can build a stronger lasting ship to be able to finally reach an island you saw but never could have reached with weaker ships.
All of that progression, but still feeling a need to be careful in every zone and prepare yourself to survive in it.
I don't understand the enjoyment never to play and experience zones again at their full beauty of preparing yourself for the encounter - because you out leveled the content and now you 1-shot everything in sight.
To have progression you need to give up something to earn later or there is no progression. Thats the point you are missing. RPG fans do love progression.
So you want to say that only progressions are levels and gear tiers? You completely ignored everything I said? Do you think that earning skills like in GW1, but doing a proper MMO would not be a progression?
Do you think it would be so horrible that pack of wolves out there are different than others because they have more skills and cuz of that they are more dangerous than those with fewer skills? I guess they should just have more health and evade 40% of your attacks until you reach their level as the mechanic that makes them harder than wolfes 2 zones ago.
Is that what you guys are saying? Levels+gear=progression, everything else is not progression? I got it. I understand. You are completely right in that statement, how foolish of me thinking there are other longterm progressions available, better than levels and gears, and even more lasting that opens more ways to play all the previous and future content.
That's not what Nanfoodle said at all. Progression is "progress", from one point to another. How one accomplishes that differs from game to game.
Sovrath answered you much better, so I'll leave the reply here. I just wanted to reiterate that if you could keep your hatred of leveling out of mind as you read, you may be able to more accurately read what others say much clearer.
As for me, I'm not a huge fan of levels, as they have been presented in games thus far, but I do love me some progressions
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There are an awful lot of posters who think they are the cat's pyjamas and that everyone else are dumber than them and are being led about by their noses.
<--- Guilty
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Sounds like another whining snowflake demanding everything right now to me.
I prefer "end game" mechanics over a level grind, but there is no end game without a level grind of some sort, whether it is a stat grind, a gear grind, spell progression grind, etc. What we are really talking about here is how op prefers sandbox games over holy trinity games. Even sandboxes have a progression.
tell me: a) where did I state that I want everything right now, I am curious to know b) where did I state I don't want progression, I am very curious about this one
you sound just like another asshole that tell lies.
I don't think you said you didn't want progression, but when you said "levels are too limiting", it can be interpreted as, "I want it all right from the get-go."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
What the OP seems to contest: tedium in PvE resulting from the need to grind out levels.
What the OP really wants: to substitute twitchy PvP combat for PvE leveling and not to have PvP players lose (in whole or part) to someone because that someone is higher level.
Thus the silly "carebear" reference.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
What the OP seems to contest: tedium in PvE resulting from the need to grind out levels.
What the OP really wants: to substitute twitchy PvP combat for PvE leveling and not to have PvP players lose (in whole or part) to someone because that someone is higher level.
Thus the silly "carebear" reference.
I agree with him in part but for different reasons. MMOs are upside down. 80% of the content is for 10% of the players (few years in). That 10% leveling alts and new to the game lets say. Where as 20% of the content (top level content) is for 90% of the players. Games like GW and ESO turned that upside down and made 99% or 100% of the content for all players. Not saying all MMOs need to be GW or ESO but out of the box thinking does not need to end with just these 2 MMOs. He is right that going to an area you love and the mobs and quests turn grey con so you have to move on sucks. Could there be more ways to have progression but not have content be out leveled? This could save developer a ton of cash and make content going farther so you have more to play. win/win
One thing about leveling is that it can be done in basically infinite ways. Hard power platform D&D levels aren't the only way. Levels can just be measurements of progress with no power.
As far as never wanting to have to leave an area permanently due to out-leveling it, the only other option I know of is scaling (the monster's strength scales with yours). And many people absolutely hate that too because they never feel like they're getting stronger.
Many players corner themselves into a lose-lose mentality. There's no fix to this until one amazing genius breaks the meta and blows everyone's mind. (I'm working on it guys)
There are usually (at least) four types of progression in a modern MMORPG:
1) Content - you see more content when you progress in the game 2) Levels - you get more stats, more skills/spells and better gear becomes available to you 3) Gear - makes you more powerful 4) Story - gives you a reason to play the content
Even if you remove levels from this list there are still gear that makes those early mobs a pushover to you and thus, turning them to pointless content eventually.
You could also remove gear from the list and keep all mobs relevant, but by doing so you invalidate the first type - content - as a progression mechanism, which would make all content available to everyone from get go. You create the character and head straight to the dragon's den to kill the bad guy that all the story in the game revolves around. Not cool.
Of course you could gate the content behind the story and deny access to areas that are not yet available storywise, but by doing so you take away player freedom and the illusion of living, breathing world, not to mention the game would feel more like an e-book rather than a computer game.
To sum it up, you can't keep all content relevant if there's any kind of progression in the game, and progression is the only reason these games are being played. People are willing to grind for hours for a cosmetic item in a game and even pay money to speed the process up.
The real problem in modern MMORPGs is you progress from 1 to 99 in a heartbeat and spend the rest of your time grinding those missing fractions (99 to 100) until a new expansion is released and everyone is returned back to 1. With better pacing you'd get more value from seeing content itself while keeping it relevant for players much longer. Same with the gear - by designing gear progression correctly mobs of your level would remain challenging enough and motivate you to improve your gear and stats.
There are only 2 games that i've played that didn't have levels that were fun to play, the first one was SWG, which started out as a true sandbox game, the second is Eve Online, same reason. Sandbox games are not really that popular though, not nearly as popular as themepark type games which by default are level based. The thing is, Themepark games are more 'flexible' in the sense that you can create a level based game and 'cherry pick' sandbox game features to enhance the gameplay, but if you do that to a sandbox game it ceases to be a sandbox, SWG is a good example of this too, if not a cautionary tale in its decline from being an open world sandbox game to the removing of features, game mechanics and gameplay styles in order to shoehorn a sandbox game into a level based themepark one, this turned a game that was struggling to compete with other MMO's into one of the worst 'train wrecks' in gaming history.
Progress 9 out of 10 times is an increase. It could be in levels, number of skills, quality of gear, number of materials etc. But it is always an increase and I don’t see one being better (or different) then the other.
However, progress can also be purely story or skillwise. Problem with that is that you are talking about completely different genres then. Progress through story alone happens in Adventure games, progress through skill alone happens in Beat em Ups.
Don’t like numbers going up, don’t play MMORPGs. And I think empty zone syndrom has been expertly handled by games like ESO and FFXIV.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Only thing I read was leveling is niche. I would say it's not. If anything leveling is spreading to other genre outside RPG. It works with the game as a service bit.
Funny thing is I like leveling most games outside of MMORPG. To me in MMORPG it is a limiting factor or irrelevant. Some of that is down to traditional implementation.
I also like leveling in non MMOs. its in MMOs that I dont like leveling due to how its used and how it conflicts with the appeal of MMOs being massive game worlds to explore with others yet in most MMOs with levels, exploration and who I play with are both always restricted by the level of myself or others.
There are only 2 games that i've played that didn't have levels that were fun to play, the first one was SWG, which started out as a true sandbox game, the second is Eve Online, same reason. Sandbox games are not really that popular though, not nearly as popular as themepark type games which by default are level based. The thing is, Themepark games are more 'flexible' in the sense that you can create a level based game and 'cherry pick' sandbox game features to enhance the gameplay, but if you do that to a sandbox game it ceases to be a sandbox, SWG is a good example of this too, if not a cautionary tale in its decline from being an open world sandbox game to the removing of features, game mechanics and gameplay styles in order to shoehorn a sandbox game into a level based themepark one, this turned a game that was struggling to compete with other MMO's into one of the worst 'train wrecks' in gaming history.
Except Eve and SWG both have levels .. Granted much like UO they do a better job of disguising it under the hood , But they are still there ..
Except Eve and SWG both have levels .. Granted much like UO they do a better job of disguising it under the hood , But they are still there ..
Sounds similar to the (incorrect) opinions about TSW had levels... since there was a 1-10 scale which made "higher" gear accessible, similarly skill points give access to fly better ships in EVE.
The problem is, by that mindset, there are levels in everything so the very discussion is pointless.
Progression is everywhere, and you can always find something to view and call as "levels".
Doesn't even have to be (MMO)RPG, in the early Sierra adventures for example there was a score, you might say while you played through and raised that score, you "leveled up towards the cap". Same goes for the completion % in games like GTA, etc.
Except Eve and SWG both have levels .. Granted much like UO they do a better job of disguising it under the hood , But they are still there ..
Sounds similar to the (incorrect) opinions about TSW had levels... since there was a 1-10 scale which made "higher" gear accessible, similarly skill points give access to fly better ships in EVE.
The problem is, by that mindset, there are levels in everything so the very discussion is pointless.
Progression is everywhere, and you can always find something to view and call as "levels".
Doesn't even have to be (MMO)RPG, in the early Sierra adventures for example there was a score, you might say while you played through and raised that score, you "leveled up towards the cap". Same goes for the completion % in games like GTA, etc.
TSW had/has levels (50 btw that have stat increases) and, you level your gear also.. the end result is same as any other game .. Your character Stats and abilities grow with experience , regardless of where exp pool is distributed
Eve has levels also .. Study each tier of Weapon/shield/engine/ neural impants /Stats etc... up to tier 5 (is Levels) to fly higher lvl ships
Just as UO is level based ... raise Bow to 70 get bonus damage unlock skill for ex..
Same with SWG .. level rifle up to Lev 5 Rifle .. Level Aim for more accuracy etc..
Some games your exp levels your class , unlocking skills that enhance your class
Some games your exp levels up Skills that are used to enhance your class
The later are usually just more open with more options .... But its all levels in the end ..
Only thing I read was leveling is niche. I would say it's not. If anything leveling is spreading to other genre outside RPG. It works with the game as a service bit.
Funny thing is I like leveling most games outside of MMORPG. To me in MMORPG it is a limiting factor or irrelevant. Some of that is down to traditional implementation.
MMORPG leveling needs to be harder but more rewarding. So many of them the benefits of gaining a level are fairly trivial.
I'm intrigued by some of the OPs points. But I'm not seeing any detailed solutions to many of the problems they present.
Maybe you could be more specific OP?
For example, the gear thing. People enjoy increasing their characters power through a variety of ways, gear acquisition being a major one. Increased power leads to power creep over the long run. You can only slow it, not stop it if you want to keep people playing.
How do you stop the power creep (the OP is referring to it as outgearing/outleveling content) and still give people incentive to play when one of their primary goals is increasing their characters power? This is a question that has been discussed since the beginning of mmos and I have never seen a solution I would consider a good one.
Yep, that's what I was trying to point at. A discussion about leveling only makes sense if define the parameters, but stays within some boundaries.
If you're on the "its all levels in the end" mindset, the discussion is moot since you can find some kinda measurement of progression in every game.
That's how you get to the point of EVE's "leveling" which is strictly time-based where player A with no-lifer approach gets to fly the ships the same time as player B who doesn't even log in - assuming they've started at the same time. (*)
Or TSW's "leveling" which was skill levels to 10 and only gave access to gears of the same QL(+1 actually, so at skill 9 you could wear all the gear, skill 10 was just a minuscule extra stat). By the number 50 I assume you've mistaken it with Legends...
(*) simplified example of course, B has to log in occasionally for the queues and A can get boosters, promos, etc. Point is, calling a time-based mechanic leveling is a bit of a stretch imo
I'm intrigued by some of the OPs points. But I'm not seeing any detailed solutions to many of the problems they present.
Maybe you could be more specific OP?
For example, the gear thing. People enjoy increasing their characters power through a variety of ways, gear acquisition being a major one. Increased power leads to power creep over the long run. You can only slow it, not stop it if you want to keep people playing.
How do you stop the power creep (the OP is referring to it as outgearing/outleveling content) and still give people incentive to play when one of their primary goals is increasing their characters power? This is a question that has been discussed since the beginning of mmos and I have never seen a solution I would consider a good one.
All MMOs have this when they use vertical progression even when they reach max level. The solution to this in a levelless system is the exact same. You can either wing it and just keep increasing gear level like WoW was successful at doing for over 3 years, or you can have a system in which gear deteriorates with use and time and need replacement by crafters and mat hunters. There would always be a market for Gear sellers and repairers for a never ending gear hunt progression.
Also there are other methods of character progression besides gear. What about class skills. In vanilla WoW you had Class quest. Some harder than others, but needed to be done to unlock a certain class spell or ability. I dont see how that same concept couldnt be upgraded to a whole class system in which task in the world are done to learn new class skills overtime.
Also I believe its time that more MMOs take a new Group Progression model, in which instead of just dealing with individual Progression, what if games took more focus on Guild Progression, and Faction Progression to help progress the building of a capitol faction city, or progression of a Guild Mission. There are so many methods and when used together creates many aspects of meaningful progression
Leveling is way too fast in mmopg's.Leveling should feel like a form of aging,should take a very long time,then it gives meaning to all the items you pickup along the way. Most games speed level so fast there is no reason to even have levels,why bother ,nothing along the way matters,these are all just "end game" mmorpg's. The best progression system was FFXI's sub class,you have over 20 classes and you can learn them all on the SAME character.This opens up a massive amount of versatility for your character and should be a lot of incentive to do group leveling. Most games do not have sub classes so all your game becomes is a linear 1-90,no use for that level 10 gear anymore,no use going back to level anything less than your current level and your stuck with that one build. The lol part is the lazy game designs that pretend to give you some reward....ok no you become an ELITE Warrior or an ADVANCED Warrior,then proceed to eliminate everything you accomplished to that point in the game.
Leveling has been done wrong,questing done wrong,xp done wrong,worlds built wrong,lack of skills,lack of elemental properties,lack of eco systems,lack of housing,lack of AI/scripting,man oh man ...lack of game design.
We can't build a mmorpg properly but HEY >>>we have RAIDS !!!!..we have LOOT !!!! come play NOW.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I agree Wizardry, but too much hybridization can actually backfire by discouraging grouping. Why group if you need a slower when you can just learn a slow ability yourself? Why group to get heals if you can do it yourself? Player interdependencies are important to grouping. It shouldn't be about what you can do alone. This rewards players who want to play casually and afk at will. I agree hybridization is funner because I love to work with systems, but it shouldn't be a platform so you're able to do everything yourself. There should always be a compromise when doing character development. If I choose to be a jack-of-all-trades, for example, a more specialized class will always do much better than me in their specific profession.
Like this... You have 100 points and 3 stats:
Body
Mind
Soul
A jack of all trades should be like this:
34
33
33
Instead what happens in most MMORPGs is the jack-of-all-trades are a gimmick. They're not actually that way. Skills and abilities are handed out like candy to everyone, and the system is balanced towards homogeneity and soloing.
Realistically, jack-of-all-trades makese sense if you're trapped on an island or you're like that guy in Battlefield Earth. In a situation where you're with lots of other nearby people, the whole idea breaks down.
I say this not because i hate jack-of-all-trade. In fact, I hate class-based charactetr evelopment. It's too rigid. I like skill-baed systems where you literally build your setup from the ground up. I'ts fun to experiment with healing/tanking/support/dps/utility/cc/etc. it's funner when you find your own way.
I'm intrigued by some of the OPs points. But I'm not seeing any detailed solutions to many of the problems they present.
Maybe you could be more specific OP?
For example, the gear thing. People enjoy increasing their characters power through a variety of ways, gear acquisition being a major one. Increased power leads to power creep over the long run. You can only slow it, not stop it if you want to keep people playing.
How do you stop the power creep (the OP is referring to it as outgearing/outleveling content) and still give people incentive to play when one of their primary goals is increasing their characters power? This is a question that has been discussed since the beginning of mmos and I have never seen a solution I would consider a good one.
All MMOs have this when they use vertical progression even when they reach max level. The solution to this in a levelless system is the exact same. You can either wing it and just keep increasing gear level like WoW was successful at doing for over 3 years, or you can have a system in which gear deteriorates with use and time and need replacement by crafters and mat hunters. There would always be a market for Gear sellers and repairers for a never ending gear hunt progression.
Also there are other methods of character progression besides gear. What about class skills. In vanilla WoW you had Class quest. Some harder than others, but needed to be done to unlock a certain class spell or ability. I dont see how that same concept couldnt be upgraded to a whole class system in which task in the world are done to learn new class skills overtime.
Also I believe its time that more MMOs take a new Group Progression model, in which instead of just dealing with individual Progression, what if games took more focus on Guild Progression, and Faction Progression to help progress the building of a capitol faction city, or progression of a Guild Mission. There are so many methods and when used together creates many aspects of meaningful progression
I used gear as an example. Skill/spell acquisition is the same. Whether you have a leveling system or a skill tree etc the point remains the same. All we can do if we want the game to be tuned in a way that people keep playing is slow the power creep. If it is tuned in a way that a players power stops increasing or even degrade people won't stick around for the long term.
Where the line is of how long players will stick around if they feel like their character isn't gaining a sufficient amount of power is different on a case by case basis.
I just don't see any solutions to the big picture being offered...but ill offer one :
The only way to solve the given problems is for people to play games for alternative reasons. Make increasing the characters power not a factor, make competition not a factor, make a players performance not a factor. Make power increases not matter and people won't care about it...but that seems like a pretty bland game and likely won't attract many players...maybe?
The biggest problem with AAA mmos imo is that they are designed not as mmorpgs, but as single player games with multiplayer elements. EVE and games like it are the exception.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
I'm intrigued by some of the OPs points. But I'm not seeing any detailed solutions to many of the problems they present.
Maybe you could be more specific OP?
*skip*
All MMOs have this when they use vertical progression even when they reach max level. The solution to this in a levelless system is the exact same. You can either wing it and just keep increasing gear level like WoW was successful at doing for over 3 years, or you can have a system in which gear deteriorates with use and time and need replacement by crafters and mat hunters. There would always be a market for Gear sellers and repairers for a never ending gear hunt progression.
*skip*
I used gear as an example. Skill/spell acquisition is the same. Whether you have a leveling system or a skill tree etc the point remains the same. All we can do if we want the game to be tuned in a way that people keep playing is slow the power creep. If it is tuned in a way that a players power stops increasing or even degrade people won't stick around for the long term.
Where the line is of how long players will stick around if they feel like their character isn't gaining a sufficient amount of power is different on a case by case basis.
I just don't see any solutions to the big picture being offered...but ill offer one :
The only way to solve the given problems is for people to play games for alternative reasons. Make increasing the characters power not a factor, make competition not a factor, make a players performance not a factor. Make power increases not matter and people won't care about it...but that seems like a pretty bland game and likely won't attract many players...maybe?
(trimmed teh quotes)
The probelm won't go away as long as progression is involved. The probelm is still there even if you have horizontal progression because you have to indefinitely be creating new horizontal paths to keep players progressing. It might change hte nature of the problem, but it won't remove it.
Even if you remove all in-game progression, represented by stats or skills or levels or gear or bases or anything, there will STILL be progression in the form of natural skills players gain when they play. Giving Quake 2 as an example (it being a very old game now), there were no levels or stats or anything, barring hitpoints, but this doesn't mean progression wasn't a problem. All of the progression was in the form of players interdependently learning how best to win, and this presented a problem if expert players are competing against new players. This is why clans formed, so that expert players could compete against capable opponents, and extremely unfair fights could be minimized. Leagues formed to organize all of this in many different multiplayer FPS games over the years. Many clans would practice on their own private servers. If you force every player to be on the same server space, regardless whether you remove all stats and numbers, this problem of experts mopping the floor with noobs will always be there--although it may not express itself in that particular way. The point being it's an obstacle, and the way it expresses itself can be different.
I figure you already understand this, given you mention competition and performance, but I wanted to expand on this if somebody else doesn't make the connection between natural skills and progression.
And believe it or not, some of us are miserable (or crazy) enough to actually want unfair situations or competition. I actually prefer open world FFA PvP because sometimes it's unfair. I don't like everything to be balanced (or fair) to extremes or by force. It neither feels natural nor enjoyable.
This is why a dictatorship will never work unless we're all robotic servants with little to no independent thought. Because no matter how much it makes sense to force thigns on people (or players), there will always be exceptions where there's freedom, and those're enough to collapse a rigid order.
Comments
Funny thing is I like leveling most games outside of MMORPG. To me in MMORPG it is a limiting factor or irrelevant. Some of that is down to traditional implementation.
a) where did I state that I want everything right now, I am curious to know
b) where did I state I don't want progression, I am very curious about this one
you sound just like another asshole that tell lies.
Sovrath answered you much better, so I'll leave the reply here. I just wanted to reiterate that if you could keep your hatred of leveling out of mind as you read, you may be able to more accurately read what others say much clearer.
As for me, I'm not a huge fan of levels, as they have been presented in games thus far, but I do love me some progressions
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What the OP really wants: to substitute twitchy PvP combat for PvE leveling and not to have PvP players lose (in whole or part) to someone because that someone is higher level.
Thus the silly "carebear" reference.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Many players corner themselves into a lose-lose mentality. There's no fix to this until one amazing genius breaks the meta and blows everyone's mind. (I'm working on it guys)
Mend and Defend
1) Content - you see more content when you progress in the game
2) Levels - you get more stats, more skills/spells and better gear becomes available to you
3) Gear - makes you more powerful
4) Story - gives you a reason to play the content
Even if you remove levels from this list there are still gear that makes those early mobs a pushover to you and thus, turning them to pointless content eventually.
You could also remove gear from the list and keep all mobs relevant, but by doing so you invalidate the first type - content - as a progression mechanism, which would make all content available to everyone from get go. You create the character and head straight to the dragon's den to kill the bad guy that all the story in the game revolves around. Not cool.
Of course you could gate the content behind the story and deny access to areas that are not yet available storywise, but by doing so you take away player freedom and the illusion of living, breathing world, not to mention the game would feel more like an e-book rather than a computer game.
To sum it up, you can't keep all content relevant if there's any kind of progression in the game, and progression is the only reason these games are being played. People are willing to grind for hours for a cosmetic item in a game and even pay money to speed the process up.
The real problem in modern MMORPGs is you progress from 1 to 99 in a heartbeat and spend the rest of your time grinding those missing fractions (99 to 100) until a new expansion is released and everyone is returned back to 1. With better pacing you'd get more value from seeing content itself while keeping it relevant for players much longer. Same with the gear - by designing gear progression correctly mobs of your level would remain challenging enough and motivate you to improve your gear and stats.
The thing is, Themepark games are more 'flexible' in the sense that you can create a level based game and 'cherry pick' sandbox game features to enhance the gameplay, but if you do that to a sandbox game it ceases to be a sandbox, SWG is a good example of this too, if not a cautionary tale in its decline from being an open world sandbox game to the removing of features, game mechanics and gameplay styles in order to shoehorn a sandbox game into a level based themepark one, this turned a game that was struggling to compete with other MMO's into one of the worst 'train wrecks' in gaming history.
However, progress can also be purely story or skillwise. Problem with that is that you are talking about completely different genres then. Progress through story alone happens in Adventure games, progress through skill alone happens in Beat em Ups.
Don’t like numbers going up, don’t play MMORPGs. And I think empty zone syndrom has been expertly handled by games like ESO and FFXIV.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
By the number 50 I assume you've mistaken it with Legends...
Point is, calling a time-based mechanic leveling is a bit of a stretch imo
The solution to this in a levelless system is the exact same. You can either wing it and just keep increasing gear level like WoW was successful at doing for over 3 years, or you can have a system in which gear deteriorates with use and time and need replacement by crafters and mat hunters. There would always be a market for Gear sellers and repairers for a never ending gear hunt progression.
Also there are other methods of character progression besides gear. What about class skills. In vanilla WoW you had Class quest. Some harder than others, but needed to be done to unlock a certain class spell or ability. I dont see how that same concept couldnt be upgraded to a whole class system in which task in the world are done to learn new class skills overtime.
Also I believe its time that more MMOs take a new Group Progression model, in which instead of just dealing with individual Progression, what if games took more focus on Guild Progression, and Faction Progression to help progress the building of a capitol faction city, or progression of a Guild Mission. There are so many methods and when used together creates many aspects of meaningful progression
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Most games speed level so fast there is no reason to even have levels,why bother ,nothing along the way matters,these are all just "end game" mmorpg's.
The best progression system was FFXI's sub class,you have over 20 classes and you can learn them all on the SAME character.This opens up a massive amount of versatility for your character and should be a lot of incentive to do group leveling.
Most games do not have sub classes so all your game becomes is a linear 1-90,no use for that level 10 gear anymore,no use going back to level anything less than your current level and your stuck with that one build.
The lol part is the lazy game designs that pretend to give you some reward....ok no you become an ELITE Warrior or an ADVANCED Warrior,then proceed to eliminate everything you accomplished to that point in the game.
Leveling has been done wrong,questing done wrong,xp done wrong,worlds built wrong,lack of skills,lack of elemental properties,lack of eco systems,lack of housing,lack of AI/scripting,man oh man ...lack of game design.
We can't build a mmorpg properly but HEY >>>we have RAIDS !!!!..we have LOOT !!!! come play NOW.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Where the line is of how long players will stick around if they feel like their character isn't gaining a sufficient amount of power is different on a case by case basis.
I just don't see any solutions to the big picture being offered...but ill offer one :
The only way to solve the given problems is for people to play games for alternative reasons. Make increasing the characters power not a factor, make competition not a factor, make a players performance not a factor.
Make power increases not matter and people won't care about it...but that seems like a pretty bland game and likely won't attract many players...maybe?