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So you want Open World Dungeons in future MMOs? Well tell us whats the best way to implement it

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
Seen this request a bit over the years and more so in recent discussions. 

OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS.

But lets say hypothetically speaking, this new MMO is a large densely populated MMO like WoW/GW2 etc

How would you design these Open World Dungeons to be a fun experience?

Philosophy of MMO Game Design

«134

Comments

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Life is funny .. players talk about wanting innovation and something new and different, and then they talk about wanting to go back to how EQ did dungeons.

    Well I guess, the best way to do it, would be doing it the way these players remember and want to go back to.
    AmatheDaranar
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  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,438
    Open world dungeons are generally a bad idea, if we're talking about places where you kill bosses for phat loot. They end up being like shopping malls for hundreds of players who just camp the bosses and each others. No immersion what-so-ever.

    That being said, if you still insist to have open world dungeons in your game you better make them so big and complex that those players won't often even see each others in there. Include trapdoors and stairways, locked doors, teleports, etc. Make them like 3d versions of Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder.

    In more general level, dungeons have been very underwhelming experience in the latest MMO games. They are too small, too linear, and too similar to each others and the whole run revolves around killing the final boss and getting the loot. There sure is room for improvement on that area.
    immodiumAsm0deusAlverantMaurgrim
  • Riqqy82Riqqy82 Member UncommonPosts: 91
    deniter said:
    Open world dungeons are generally a bad idea, if we're talking about places where you kill bosses for phat loot. They end up being like shopping malls for hundreds of players who just camp the bosses and each others. No immersion what-so-ever.

    That being said, if you still insist to have open world dungeons in your game you better make them so big and complex that those players won't often even see each others in there. Include trapdoors and stairways, locked doors, teleports, etc. Make them like 3d versions of Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder.

    In more general level, dungeons have been very underwhelming experience in the latest MMO games. They are too small, too linear, and too similar to each others and the whole run revolves around killing the final boss and getting the loot. There sure is room for improvement on that area.
    I dont think you should be commenting/playing MMORPGs anymore seems you lost the fire behind them.
    SteelhelmdeniterMaurgrim

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  • DafAtRandomDafAtRandom Member UncommonPosts: 129
    What do you mean in the future ? Older MMORPGs did that, it's nothing innovative.  If population is going to be bigger, add more options.  Instead of 2-3 dungeons per tier, make it 7-8, and no fixed loot tables.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    Ungood said:
    Life is funny .. players talk about wanting innovation and something new and different, and then they talk about wanting to go back to how EQ did dungeons.

    Well I guess, the best way to do it, would be doing it the way these players remember and want to go back to.
    Innovation comes in many forms.

    I've never played EQ dungeons so I can't comment on them. I love Lineage 2 dungeons. They were fun, there were other players about, you sometimes had to be careful about enemy clans/alliances. I suppose that made them more fun.

    Innovation can mean that the mobs/rooms act-react to what the players are doing and how many there are.

    It could mean having a theme on one day when certain bosses roam the halls with their minions, it could mean that the rooms might move/slide around changing things and changing how the players enter, leave.

    Also, it's important to note that "some" players want innovation (which is a misused word and sometime people don't know what they want) but it's ok to find something that's fun and not mess with it.
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  • Cuppett5Cuppett5 Member UncommonPosts: 156
    Just like Asheron's Call did it. Portals everywhere with certain level restrictions. Watch out for PK's too or die. See, that wasn't so hard. 
    MyrdynnDrunkWolf
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    Fixed loot tables are the main culprit that certain dungeons getting camped 24/7. Remove it and make it possible to be any of 100 other dungeons and you will not get those no life guilds camping them.
    LokeroAlBQuirkyKnyttaAmaranthar

  • NecromaNecroma Member UncommonPosts: 45
    edited August 2019
    What do you mean in the future ? Older MMORPGs did that, it's nothing innovative.  If population is going to be bigger, add more options.  Instead of 2-3 dungeons per tier, make it 7-8, and no fixed loot tables.
    It's already a chore to do 2-3 dungeons with how shitty they are in every single mmo(old and "new") and you want to do 7-8 per tier, what kind of company could make that much of a content and it actually being playable. Just look at FFXIV, it shit's dungeons and trials yet 8/10 of them are pure chore to do once and afterwards you're praising the sun gods for completing them. Make 1-2 dungeons but as big as raids and actually having an impact rather than a content to match e-dicks on their clear speeds and drops but then again, how does repeating that story makes sense, i guess changing the dynamics of the dungeon that if you killed for ex. orc chief, you start seeing other type of orcs and the ones of the dead chief tribe have their bodies placed in some random spots as if in tribe/teriterry wars/duels or w.e. shit it could be, but then it comes down to what current mmo players want from it, i highly doubt if any new mmo players even bother with some random npc standing behind a tree and checking some girls in a nearby lake, just for shits and giggles, more like they just want to feel the main story and then play the shinny effect gameplay.

    Imho, OW Dungeons are pretty bad idea in general at our current mmo playerbase disposition and i can hardly think of a way to implement it even if it was the best thing ever, what makes a dungeon a dungeon? If it's just clearing objectives/story and killing a boss at the end to loot rewards then pretty much all gw2 dlc maps are OW dungeons, no? You do pre-quests, events and then meta to fight the big bad boss and take the prize. Making OWD a thing where it's an open area monster nest? Bdo has that idea implemented already and it's just another grind spot for geared people. Rather than remaking the wheel of dungeons, start thinking about how degraded and cheap MMO dropped nowadays that they're literally reskined old <2010 assets with just refreshed and changed story and art... Needs something new and big to shake the market, but MMO's are too much work for current AAA studios and knowing that p2w is mandatory in games nowadays(in one way or another, skipping 500h of grinding and having that +100ap vs a pleb is p2w in my eyes, but don't want to debate on this shit cuz it's already complained everywhere and it's sadly ain't going anywhere.) just waiting for already known is a nightmare.
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    Multiple entrances, and some amount of sprawling about.  Would be the bare minimum.

    Add new objectives for going into dungeons.  Being the fastest way to some towns, and a different dungeon being a shortcut to the halfway point to other dungeons. Are probably the easiest examples.

    Adding "long cuts" for smaller groups or solo players could be useful.   Especially if they feed into points that those people could hang out in for a while productively before joining forces.  Long cuts for nonoptimal teams could be useful as well.

    ___ 

    All that sounds like way more work than cross server automated matchmaking.  So we won't see it.
    SovrathdeniterWaanAlBQuirky

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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,617
    Old mmorpg already have it. 

    The dungeon is just another area similar to the open world.  Just a bit more difficult mob, and higher density.  
    SteelhelmAlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    deniter said:
    Open world dungeons are generally a bad idea, if we're talking about places where you kill bosses for phat loot. They end up being like shopping malls for hundreds of players who just camp the bosses and each others. No immersion what-so-ever.

    That being said, if you still insist to have open world dungeons in your game you better make them so big and complex that those players won't often even see each others in there. Include trapdoors and stairways, locked doors, teleports, etc. Make them like 3d versions of Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder.

    In more general level, dungeons have been very underwhelming experience in the latest MMO games. They are too small, too linear, and too similar to each others and the whole run revolves around killing the final boss and getting the loot. There sure is room for improvement on that area.
    What's the difference between "camping" bosses and just running the private instance over and over again? And is that really immersive?

    This has more to do with how they are implemented and what is expected of these bosses.

    So, more to do with game design. They could make it so the leveling is why one runs dungeons but bosses are actually a huge nuisance and something to be scared of. You run from them, don't want to tangle with them. Maybe they are immortal spirits or some such thing. 

    Or you can have players have to earn their boss instance within an open dungeon by collecting x amount of hearts or some such thing and then doing a ritual.

    Or make it that the longer you camp an area the more enemies and stronger enemies consistently appear before the boss itself.

    I mean, many things can be considered.
    deniterAlBQuirky
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  • DafAtRandomDafAtRandom Member UncommonPosts: 129
    Necroma said:
    What do you mean in the future ? Older MMORPGs did that, it's nothing innovative.  If population is going to be bigger, add more options.  Instead of 2-3 dungeons per tier, make it 7-8, and no fixed loot tables.
    It's already a chore to do 2-3 dungeons with how shitty they are in every single mmo(old and "new") and you want to do 7-8 per tier, what kind of company could make that much of a content and it actually being playable. Just look at FFXIV, it shit's dungeons and trials yet 8/10 of them are pure chore to do once and afterwards you're praising the sun gods for completing them. Make 1-2 dungeons but as big as raids and actually having an impact rather than a content to match e-dicks on their clear speeds and drops but then again, how does repeating that story makes sense, i guess changing the dynamics of the dungeon that if you killed for ex. orc chief, you start seeing other type of orcs and the ones of the dead chief tribe have their bodies placed in some random spots as if in tribe/teriterry wars/duels or w.e. shit it could be, but then it comes down to what current mmo players want from it, i highly doubt if any new mmo players even bother with some random npc standing behind a tree and checking some girls in a nearby lake, just for shits and giggles, more like they just want to feel the main story and then play the shinny effect gameplay.

    Imho, OW Dungeons are pretty bad idea in general at our current mmo playerbase disposition and i can hardly think of a way to implement it even if it was the best thing ever, what makes a dungeon a dungeon? If it's just clearing objectives/story and killing a boss at the end to loot rewards then pretty much all gw2 dlc maps are OW dungeons, no? You do pre-quests, events and then meta to fight the big bad boss and take the prize. Making OWD a thing where it's an open area monster nest? Bdo has that idea implemented already and it's just another grind spot for geared people. Rather than remaking the wheel of dungeons, start thinking about how degraded and cheap MMO dropped nowadays that they're literally reskined old <2010 assets with just refreshed and changed story and art... Needs something new and big to shake the market, but MMO's are too much work for current AAA studios and knowing that p2w is mandatory in games nowadays(in one way or another, skipping 500h of grinding and having that +100ap vs a pleb is p2w in my eyes, but don't want to debate on this shit cuz it's already complained everywhere and it's sadly ain't going anywhere.) just waiting for already known is a nightmare.

    If running dungeons is a chore to you, then don't run them ? And because some current game makes dungeons dull or linear or boring doesn't mean every game will end up that way.  By making several dungeons, and making loot tables not fixed, you're giving people OPTIONS instead of making them feel like they have to run every single dungeon 5 million times.
    As for your comparison with FFXIV, of course the dungeons suck.  They're instanced...
    alkarionlogAlBQuirky
  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,485
    SOE did this with SWG. We had the Warren, and Death Watch Bunker as well as lots of other smaller dungeons. They took hours to work through too due to layout and the amount of difficult mobs in them.

    BDO also has open world dungeons. I guess if you needed to implement them today on a large scale you could just phase dungeon zones.
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  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    There seems to be an underlying air implying that "instances are bad" in this thread.  The idea of open world dungeons may have had their day.  Everyone who plays wants the item drop from Boss X, and they don't want to wait.  Open world dungeons elicited all sorts of bad behavior from players.  Ever hear of ninja looting?  Kill stealing?  Humans tend to be very nasty critters, and most all game players are human.

    Instances solved those problems, since we wouldn't play nice.  The developers took the mantle of "adult in the room" and gave everyone who wanted that item the opportunity at "personalized" loot.  Of course, players resented it.

    I cannot see that the answer is reverting back to only open world dungeons.  The way forward is rarely found in the past.  Phased and instanced areas need to co-exist with open world areas.  These newer ideas were developed to address the very real customer support issues that the open world design created.

    With the way the population of MMORPGs are going, this entire discussion may be moot.



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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    Mendel said:
    There seems to be an underlying air implying that "instances are bad" in this thread.  



    Personally, I don't think they are bad, they are just "about" something else. They are great with game play that allows for people to all get together, do "a thing" and then get their prizes. Nothing wrong with that.

    Open world dungeons offered another access with player involvement, meeting people on the fly, helping people out, for pvp games offering pvp opportunities, etc.
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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited August 2019
    Implement it like DAoC's Darkness Falls: make it huge and instead of loot drops do token drops that you can trade at the vendor for what you want. Sure, the tough mobs and bosses drop more tokens so they'll get camped but you get something out of all mobs so it's not a total loss if you can't farm your favorite spot. It also does away with useless RNG drops.
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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    No system is going to be perfect. But EQ has had this for 20 years. There should be plenty of data from that alone to come up with a good way.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652
    I think they would have to be more organic.  When a dungeon was "cleared" it would be empty for a while, maybe forever.  Meanwhile, a new threat was discovered elsewhere.  So it would really have to include something like procedural generation or a robust toolset that let the devs quickly build and spawn dungeons.  No more running the same dungeon 50 times to face the same "bosses".  No more "camping" a boss that magically respawns in 20 minutes.  No...  we go in and root out the vile beasts and then the dungeon is done.  That is not to say that you cannot have a huge dungeon that will take a long time to conquer but the idea of a "open world dungeon" is IMHO incongruous with a dungeon that is static and never changes and is eternal.

     
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  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Mendel said:
    There seems to be an underlying air implying that "instances are bad" in this thread.  The idea of open world dungeons may have had their day.  Everyone who plays wants the item drop from Boss X, and they don't want to wait.  Open world dungeons elicited all sorts of bad behavior from players.  Ever hear of ninja looting?  Kill stealing?  Humans tend to be very nasty critters, and most all game players are human.

    Instances solved those problems, since we wouldn't play nice.  The developers took the mantle of "adult in the room" and gave everyone who wanted that item the opportunity at "personalized" loot.  Of course, players resented it.

    I cannot see that the answer is reverting back to only open world dungeons.  The way forward is rarely found in the past.  Phased and instanced areas need to co-exist with open world areas.  These newer ideas were developed to address the very real customer support issues that the open world design created.

    With the way the population of MMORPGs are going, this entire discussion may be moot.



    but they are, most games use dungeon as a way to make people kind gear
    Necroma said:
    What do you mean in the future ? Older MMORPGs did that, it's nothing innovative.  If population is going to be bigger, add more options.  Instead of 2-3 dungeons per tier, make it 7-8, and no fixed loot tables.
    It's already a chore to do 2-3 dungeons with how shitty they are in every single mmo(old and "new") and you want to do 7-8 per tier, what kind of company could make that much of a content and it actually being playable. Just look at FFXIV, it shit's dungeons and trials yet 8/10 of them are pure chore to do once and afterwards you're praising the sun gods for completing them. Make 1-2 dungeons but as big as raids and actually having an impact rather than a content to match e-dicks on their clear speeds and drops but then again, how does repeating that story makes sense, i guess changing the dynamics of the dungeon that if you killed for ex. orc chief, you start seeing other type of orcs and the ones of the dead chief tribe have their bodies placed in some random spots as if in tribe/teriterry wars/duels or w.e. shit it could be, but then it comes down to what current mmo players want from it, i highly doubt if any new mmo players even bother with some random npc standing behind a tree and checking some girls in a nearby lake, just for shits and giggles, more like they just want to feel the main story and then play the shinny effect gameplay.

    Imho, OW Dungeons are pretty bad idea in general at our current mmo playerbase disposition and i can hardly think of a way to implement it even if it was the best thing ever, what makes a dungeon a dungeon? If it's just clearing objectives/story and killing a boss at the end to loot rewards then pretty much all gw2 dlc maps are OW dungeons, no? You do pre-quests, events and then meta to fight the big bad boss and take the prize. Making OWD a thing where it's an open area monster nest? Bdo has that idea implemented already and it's just another grind spot for geared people. Rather than remaking the wheel of dungeons, start thinking about how degraded and cheap MMO dropped nowadays that they're literally reskined old <2010 assets with just refreshed and changed story and art... Needs something new and big to shake the market, but MMO's are too much work for current AAA studios and knowing that p2w is mandatory in games nowadays(in one way or another, skipping 500h of grinding and having that +100ap vs a pleb is p2w in my eyes, but don't want to debate on this shit cuz it's already complained everywhere and it's sadly ain't going anywhere.) just waiting for already known is a nightmare.

    If running dungeons is a chore to you, then don't run them ? And because some current game makes dungeons dull or linear or boring doesn't mean every game will end up that way.  By making several dungeons, and making loot tables not fixed, you're giving people OPTIONS instead of making them feel like they have to run every single dungeon 5 million times.
    As for your comparison with FFXIV, of course the dungeons suck.  They're instanced...

    hard since most gear is gated inside a dungeon run, same for raids, why you think they put top gear (not the game, or tv show), behind such raids and dungeons, because they know if they don't most wouldn't bother, iamgione not ahving to run a same raid or dungeon hoping for a random drop or two each time.

    remember me when the secret world was going, the best you could get was inside dungeon runs on hard mode inside the agatha, the pvp gear was teh same, but was limited to one tier lower, the people who did pvp wanted the pvp gear on same tier as the dungeon, the dungeon peeps started to cry harder they didn't wanted it since it would make people stop running dungeons.

    see where i'm getting at?

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  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    The most important part of open world dungeons is having GM enforced rules. If you play any populated EQ server these days its a miserable experience in a dungeon.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    Utinni said:
    The most important part of open world dungeons is having GM enforced rules. If you play any populated EQ server these days its a miserable experience in a dungeon.
    What do you mean by "gm enforced rules?" and are you saying (and I suspect yes and it's the truth) that there are no gm's in Everquest anymore?

    Also, can't those rules be enforced by the game itself or no?
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  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Sovrath said:
    Utinni said:
    The most important part of open world dungeons is having GM enforced rules. If you play any populated EQ server these days its a miserable experience in a dungeon.
    What do you mean by "gm enforced rules?" and are you saying (and I suspect yes and it's the truth) that there are no gm's in Everquest anymore?

    Also, can't those rules be enforced by the game itself or no?
    EQ is 100% hands off now. People train, killsteal, harass etc etc. There is no policing.
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member EpicPosts: 3,368
    Utinni said:
    Sovrath said:
    Utinni said:
    The most important part of open world dungeons is having GM enforced rules. If you play any populated EQ server these days its a miserable experience in a dungeon.
    What do you mean by "gm enforced rules?" and are you saying (and I suspect yes and it's the truth) that there are no gm's in Everquest anymore?

    Also, can't those rules be enforced by the game itself or no?
    EQ is 100% hands off now. People train, killsteal, harass etc etc. There is no policing.
    thats why instanced content exists now .
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Torval said:
    Sovrath said:
    Utinni said:
    The most important part of open world dungeons is having GM enforced rules. If you play any populated EQ server these days its a miserable experience in a dungeon.
    What do you mean by "gm enforced rules?" and are you saying (and I suspect yes and it's the truth) that there are no gm's in Everquest anymore?

    Also, can't those rules be enforced by the game itself or no?
    Maybe because they're pve servers and people can be asshats with little consequence? I'm just guessing based on reading years of feedback about mega guild dominance in that game. Lineage 1 and 2 have good open dungeon design for all the reasons you mentioned above. EQs contested content design sounds horrible.

    ESOs public dungeons are pretty fun.
    Much different than ESO's public dungeons. 
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited August 2019
    Warlyx said:
    Utinni said:
    Sovrath said:
    Utinni said:
    The most important part of open world dungeons is having GM enforced rules. If you play any populated EQ server these days its a miserable experience in a dungeon.
    What do you mean by "gm enforced rules?" and are you saying (and I suspect yes and it's the truth) that there are no gm's in Everquest anymore?

    Also, can't those rules be enforced by the game itself or no?
    EQ is 100% hands off now. People train, killsteal, harass etc etc. There is no policing.
    thats why instanced content exists now .
    Lost Dungeons of Norrath (an EQ1 expansion released before WoW) was SoE's solution to "fix" the multiple issues with EQ1 dungeons. Which - since no one has mentioned it yet - hoping your guild would get a slot on the weekly / monthly roster to go and kill Boss X when it spawned. If you weren't on the roster you didn't get to do the "open world" boss dungeon.

    Oh and lest I forget the mobs in EQ1 dungeons respawned.


    Many "more modern" mmos actually include "older style" dungeons - they tend to be called, something like, public instances. They also tend to have open world boss encounter type mechanics as well that spawn on some sort of timer.

    These mechanics are in addition to instanced "dungeons" - or in some cases instanced mini-zones (as far back as CoH for example, also pre-WoW). ESO's PvP campaign "instances" are for c. 6,000 people and they are not "instant" either being on e.g. a weekly timer. So what is an instance?

    Well its worth remembering that "servers" are just a form of instance. Whether its 50 or 200 servers for 200 or 20,000 people per "server" that is 50 or 200 instances of the game straight away. And the population is often further divided between zones, or regional locks or some splits.  Such divisions may not be called "instances" but that is what they are; one of the things that marked EVE out - just the one server; not many dungeons in EVE though!
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
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