Solo vs. Single player

Vermillion_Raventhal

I think this is one of the biggest myths and confusions with MMORPG.  

Everquest was one of the few MMORPG that was generally unfriendly to solo play.  Solo play does not mean that the game is anti social.  UO was highly soloable but had a huge community aspect because it's gameplay allowed it to be.  It just means that in combat you can solo.

Single player style of gameplay is just that.  A game that plays like a single player game in a MMORPG.  Community features take a back seat.  A lot instances, save the world player story and phasing to give the player his own unique isolated experience in an MMORPG.  

Viper482

Biggest myths?? Can't recall where anyone has implied otherwise....who exactly are you debating with here? Yea...a single player game is a single player game, soloing is something you do by yourself in an MMO. Not sure anyone has tried to argue this one...

Common sense. You could have started a thread saying breakfast food should only be eaten before noon or something like that. 

Vermillion_Raventhal

Viper482 said:

Biggest myths?? Can't recall where anyone has implied otherwise....who exactly are you debating with here? Yea...a single player game is a single player game, soloing is something you do by yourself in an MMO. Not sure anyone has tried to argue this one...

Common sense. You could have started a thread saying breakfast food should only be eaten before noon or something like that. 

Just things have seen on message boards since only the 90s.  I never knew a post had to be directed at anyone.  

Viper482

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Viper482 said:

Biggest myths?? Can't recall where anyone has implied otherwise....who exactly are you debating with here? Yea...a single player game is a single player game, soloing is something you do by yourself in an MMO. Not sure anyone has tried to argue this one...

Common sense. You could have started a thread saying breakfast food should only be eaten before noon or something like that. 

Just things have seen on message boards since only the 90s.  I never knew a post had to be directed at anyone.  

I did not imply it had to be directed at someone, I was simply looking for anyone. 

I have literally never seen anyone confuse single player games with solo play in an MMO or propagate this "biggest myth" you speak of. For something to be one of "the biggest myths and confusions" one would think they would actually see the argument made on forums like......I don't know.....MMORPG.com? 

Sorry dude, found this odd. I think there is a discussion to be had here regarding solo play  being predominant in modern MMOs, but I'm not buying this myth.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Viper482 said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Viper482 said:

Biggest myths?? Can't recall where anyone has implied otherwise....who exactly are you debating with here? Yea...a single player game is a single player game, soloing is something you do by yourself in an MMO. Not sure anyone has tried to argue this one...

Common sense. You could have started a thread saying breakfast food should only be eaten before noon or something like that. 

Just things have seen on message boards since only the 90s.  I never knew a post had to be directed at anyone.  

I did not imply it had to be directed at someone, I was simply looking for anyone. 

I have literally never seen anyone confuse single player games with solo play in an MMO or propagate this "biggest myth" you speak of. For something to be one of "the biggest myths and confusions" one would think they would actually see the argument made on forums like......I don't know.....MMORPG.com? 

Sorry dude, found this odd. I think there is a discussion to be had here regarding solo play  being predominant in modern MMOs, but I'm not buying this myth.

That's fine.  I have seen people who claim if everything is group combat then it's a single player game.  Difference of experiences.  

TheDarkrayne

Rhoklaw said:

I've never played any MMO that didn't have some form of solo game play available, including EQ. Grouping was never enforced in any MMO, unless you wanted to tackle certain content. In my opinion, this is how ALL MMOs should be. You can solo if you want, but if you want to enjoy all content, you need to learn to socialize. Otherwise you may as well be playing a single player game.

Grouping was forced in FFXI, to be fair. FFXIV forces group instances to progress the story too and you're absolutely required to complete those to keep playing the game. LOTRO used to force group instances to progress the story as well, but you could skip those and move onto the next chapter if you really wanted to.

I'm sure there's more.

ultimateduck

Doesn't GW2 also kind of force a grouping if people in the area are doing the same quests? It's been a while since I've played that game. I just remember being solo, then being grouped as I kill a mob for a quest, then being solo again.

Amathe

A modest amount of solo opportunities is ok by me. You could solo in EQ. Some classes could solo pretty well (e.g., quad kiters). 

But lots of solo opportunities produces a game full of soloists (which is not the game I want to play if I am seeking a group based mmorpg). 

I am pretty sure we have had this conversation about a dozen times. Is this an agenda for you, that you keep posting this?

WarEnsemble

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think this is one of the biggest myths and confusions with MMORPG.  

Everquest was one of the few MMORPG that was generally unfriendly to solo play.  Solo play does not mean that the game is anti social.  UO was highly soloable but had a huge community aspect because it's gameplay allowed it to be.  It just means that in combat you can solo.

Single player style of gameplay is just that.  A game that plays like a single player game in a MMORPG.  Community features take a back seat.  A lot instances, save the world player story and phasing to give the player his own unique isolated experience in an MMORPG.  

I think you have a valid point here, there is a difference between single player and solo play, although it is a purely thematic discussion. A lot of people solo (in my experience) because they have limited play time or because they have a high degree of distraction around them. I would venture to say that most people do not prefer to solo in a multiplayer game.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Amathe said:

A modest amount of solo opportunities is ok by me. You could solo in EQ. Some classes could solo pretty well (e.g., quad kiters). 

But lots of solo opportunities produces a game full of soloists (which is not the game I want to play if I am seeking a group based mmorpg). 

I am pretty sure we have had this conversation about a dozen times. Is this an agenda for you, that you keep posting this?

Yes, vote for Raventhal 2020.  Running on the platform if pro solo gameplay.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Rhoklaw said:

I've never played any MMO that didn't have some form of solo game play available, including EQ. Grouping was never enforced in any MMO, unless you wanted to tackle certain content. In my opinion, this is how ALL MMOs should be. You can solo if you want, but if you want to enjoy all content, you need to learn to socialize. Otherwise you may as well be playing a single player game.

That's why I said solo friendly.  Some folks give off the impression that you'd die to rat outside of town if you didn't have an 8 man group in old MMORPG.

Po_gg

TheDarkrayne said:

LOTRO used to force group instances to progress the story as well, but you could skip those and move onto the next chapter if you really wanted to.

Not to next chapter, next Volume Book... if you couldn't finish something in that story you were halted in that Volume Book (the story of that zone). Also a lot of non-storyline quest chains ended up in group quests, but at least you could finish those by overleveling if you had no group available.

As much as I'm sided with group content I was glad when they've added IG to the story content. Forced grouping (actually forced anything) is never the answer. Option is king.

ed: I mixed up Books and Volumes /facepalm

WarEnsemble

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

... Some folks give off the impression that you'd die to rat outside of town if you didn't have an 8 man group in old MMORPG.

This is actually not too far from the truth. I remember starting Everquest 1 as a dark elf necromancer. No gear, no spells, I literally had to locate and zerg the same moss snake for 4-5 deaths just to get the first kill.

Vermillion_Raventhal

WarEnsemble said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

... Some folks give off the impression that you'd die to rat outside of town if you didn't have an 8 man group in old MMORPG.

This is actually not too far from the truth. I remember starting Everquest 1 as a dark elf necromancer. No gear, no spells, I literally had to locate and zerg the same moss snake for 4-5 deaths just to get the first kill.

Yeah it could be rough.  I managed to be killed by the wizard trainer.  

AlBQuirky

ultimateduck said:

Doesn't GW2 also kind of force a grouping if people in the area are doing the same quests? It's been a while since I've played that game. I just remember being solo, then being grouped as I kill a mob for a quest, then being solo again.

Kind of, but not really. Yes, GW2 auto-grouped you in their dynamic events, but you didn't have to participate. You could run on by ignoring the event and continue soloing. I saw that far too often when I last played a year or so ago. Many players lost interest in the repeated events and basically ignored most of them.

On Topic:
I agree with Rhoklaw, though. MMOs should have solo-able and group-able (grammatical consistency?) content. I've always felt that MMORPGs should help players desire to group instead of forcing them to.

Also, many times grouping limits a player's social interaction to just that group (2 to 8 other players), while a solo-er is more free to interact with anyone else they may run into. The group, many times, is in a hurry to get somewhere and ignores all else as they run to their "spot." Not always, but quite a lot of the time.

There are also different skill levels of players, where some can solo (and did) in more group oriented games, like EQ. Many mid level EQ Bards could solo. I never could. Many EQ Necromancers could solo a lot of content and I never got the hang of that, either. EQ Druids were famous for quad kiting which was another method I couldn't grab hold of. Yea, I suck

I do want group only content in my MMORPGs. Raids and dungeons 2 specific examples. Anything else should be grouped because players desire to do so and interact with other players for a time.

That's my take on it.

Octagon7711

Lineage 2 is meant for grouping but I played it mostly solo.  It took a long time to level but solo could be done.  Like most games meant for grouping you just died a lot more, also, SWG was like that.

TheDarkrayne

Po_gg said:

TheDarkrayne said:

LOTRO used to force group instances to progress the story as well, but you could skip those and move onto the next chapter if you really wanted to.

Not to next chapter, next Book... if you couldn't finish something in that story you were halted in that Book (the story of that zone). Also a lot of non-storyline quest chains ended up in group quests, but at least you could finish those by overleveling if you had no group available.

As much as I'm sided with group content I was glad when they've added IG to the story content. Forced grouping (actually forced anything) is never the answer. Option is king.

ed: mixed up Books and Volumes /facepalm

Yes, I meant the next book.

Amathe

I sometimes wonder if people know that if one game - one game out of the hundreds of games that there are - is made where the focus is group play over soloing, that all those other games are still going to be there for people to solo to their heart's content. 

hallucigenocide

i like to play solo in mmo's. it's nice having people around doing their own thing + there's always the option to group up to do stuff if you want.
i don't really like playing single player games because they lack that element of randomness that comes with having actual players around.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Amathe said:

I sometimes wonder if people know that if one game - one game out of the hundreds of games that there are - is made where the focus is group play over soloing, that all those other games are still going to be there for people to solo to their heart's content. 

I don't think anyone is out there to suppress that kind of MMORPG.  I just want a good sandbox focused game with good solo and group content with 0 single player crap.  

Pantheon is going to try the hardcore grouping route and I haven't seen any pitchforks out for it.  Hell I'd give it try myself.  I don't think it will make it without solo options like class or build that can solo.

Wizardry

Well op this is one of the reasons EQ1 was not good enough and inferior to FFXI which imo does everything better than EQ1.However to be fair Eq1 was a pioneer game,SOE had very little to draw from for design ideas while FFXi had it's own FF3/5 to have a good starting template.

You see in FFXI the entire combat,class/job structure allows BOTH worlds to shine or have fun in different ways.

Obviously solo you have no friends,nobody to talk to,nobody to help you etc etc.However if that is your thing FFXI did allow it and could solo quite well but obviously not as efficient as a group.This is no longer the case,you can easily solo from level 1 because they changed how XP works and added mechanics to speed up leveling.
You did have to sort of play in a group until you got level 30 then did a quest to attain one of several elite classes.

Once you did that you could solo very well with a Beastmaster class that gets very strong at lv 75 when you can get a pet that aoe's and heals and is quite powerful,if i had to rate that Rabbit pet i would say easily as good as 2 players.HGowever the subclass is another reason FFXI shone over EQ1,the combinations allowed almost ANY class to solo if that was their desire,Summoners being another solid class.The thing about soloing is you did have to be a pretty good player as the risk soloing was very high.

I had to point out examples because most people never played a design like FFXI.My long winded point is that there is no reason for an EITHER ..OR,you can have the best of all designs all rolled into one game.That is the reason i try and play any other mmorpg and it just feels handcuffed and severely lacking.

AAAMEOW

I think the OP are talking about single player quest line etc.  I don't see the big deal, it gives people a few hours of game play like in other single player game.

I disagree when people say those are bad for mmorpg genre.  The thing make mmorpg unique is it brought all kind of gamers to play together.  

kitarad

I think any game should have some classes that could solo some of the content. Mind you that is 'some' but dungeons and other stuff should be tackled by groups or like a very talented necromancer soloing Guk but ordinarily no dungeon bosses should be soloable. It is a failure of MMORPG design when all of the game can be soloed.

I have not personally ever witnessed a confusion of solo and single player terms unless the person is new to the genre or has a poor understanding of what the terms mean. Once explained unless they are trying to advance an alternative fact assertion it should not arise again.

Rungar

i know this might sound counter-intuitive but in order to get more people grouping in mmo's they need to get rid of the grouping ui. To complement that they then need to design dungeons as such where anyone can join in at any time kinda like the way pvp is in most games. 

the grouping ui is actually exclusionary in many ways and it has been done to death with no real improvement since everquest.

instead your relevant information ( your health) would be the underline of your name for all to see. 

only a slight change in the way content is created is required to make this far superior to the old ways. Dungeons need to be seen as fortresses and lairs where many players are required to defend and attack to progress the dungeon over a period of time to its conclusion and rewards.   

iixviiiix

I pretty much give up about new MMORPG.

I start to play old games earlier versions private server . Those don't exit official anymore . And i find them more enjoyable to the point where i hope all MMORPG go dead.

Who care about new game anymore when the old cheese is better ?

It had been 2 years that i don't even bore to look for new mmorpg anymore . If there is anything that make this genre better , that's give up .

MMOExposed

Viper482 said:

Biggest myths?? Can't recall where anyone has implied otherwise....who exactly are you debating with here? Yea...a single player game is a single player game, soloing is something you do by yourself in an MMO. Not sure anyone has tried to argue this one...

Common sense. You could have started a thread saying breakfast food should only be eaten before noon or something like that. 

huh? This been the narrative on this board for the last 10 years.