The Epic Store: A CIVILIZED Discussion

AlBQuirky

I had a thought about The Epic Game Store the other day. Epic has billions in the bank. Why didn't they wait to build their storefront to compete with Steam, instead of using a basically barebones store (do they have a Cart function yet?) and buying "exclusivity rights" for some games?

Did they have open up when they did, or could they have spent a year or two developing their storefront, first? I don't think they were hurting for money at the time they opened up.

Any "civil" thoughts, assumptions, or insights?

AAAMEOW

You make it sound like epic are only selling exclusive but not working on their storefront.  They most likely are doing both at the same time.

As for exclusive I think it is necessary.  People won't jump to epic if they aren't incentive to do so. Regular free games, promotion, exclusive to make people a habit to use their store.

As a consumer, I wish epic and steam go to a price war.  But don't look like it at the moment.
  

AlBQuirky

AAAMEOW said:

You make it sound like epic are only selling exclusive but not working on their storefront.  They most likely are doing both at the same time.

As for exclusive I think it is necessary.  People won't jump to epic if they aren't incentive to do so. Regular free games, promotion, exclusive to make people a habit to use their store.

As a consumer, I wish epic and steam go to a price war.  But don't look like it at the moment.
 

What I'm talking about is why not offer a better (or at least as good as) service than Steam offers, instead opening a half finished storefront, then working to finish while offering exclusives?

anemo

Most companies don’t know what they want or need for IT stuff until it is too late.  Epic being actual developers with a game or two released a year, and maintaining the Unreal Engine will be very aware of that concept.  So they probably figured they’d do best with a slow and live roll out.

I do wish that Epic had a better store.  Because frankly Valve has become a fat, out of touch, and lazy company.  They seriously spent years making Artifact and expected it to be met with anything but groans or even do well.  Their Source engine is so out of date that when they made their mini game series The Lab (or their VR version) only one game was made in Source.  The only thing that Valve has constantly innovated on has been loot boxes with absurdities like actively supporting 3rd party gambling sites (until mainstream news touched it), being the first to do the whole get a loot box buy the key thing, and actively running a real cash economy for their loot box rewards inside Steam itself.

To be honest Epic doesn’t seem all that bad to me when you look the filth that Valve actively embraces (when they don’t need to with a 30% cut of virtually every PC game sold).   Sure a 6 month to 1 year exclusive is pretty in your face in displaying business greed and whatever else.  But when you compare how "ungreedy" Epic is with loot boxes compared to Steam they’re practically saints (no ability to mass buy or open, results known before opening, slowly removing loot boxes in their IPs, and having favorable season passes with actually good loot).

Vandarix

Exclusives: They reel you in put you in shackles and tell you you can only get this game from us. I support competition. However, I do not support being told who I can buy from.

Vandarix

anemo said:

  But when you compare how "ungreedy" Epic is with loot boxes compared to Steam they’re practically saints (no ability to mass buy or open, results known before opening, slowly removing loot boxes in their IPs, and having favorable season passes with actually good loot).

I think if they truely cared they'd get out of the loot box market entirely. But you know the motto Milk them for every dollar.

Aeander

Personally, I would like if Epic could provide exclusives by funding new content rather than subsidizing it at the last minute.

Epic has IP. Unreal Tournament, Paragon, etc. It just seems like their own development projects have floundered (Fortnite BR aside), and, like Valve, they are no longer interested in game development. 

Perhaps that is for the best. The industry has rightly evolved away from arena shooters, and Paragon was a mess from start to cancelation. But Epic has the resources to buy smaller studios and become a publisher. That would be a nice change.

boris20

Competition, great. Bring it on. 

Cant blame steam for charging 30% of cut on game sales, its a business, the point is to maximize profits, they see a market and what they can charge, they do it. Now that there is competition, they will need to adjust accordingly or lose business. 

I do not support Epics exclusives. Bring competition yes. That is great. But I do not care for being forced to buy from somewhere. That under cuts the pricing battle between the 2 companies. But as a business, if Epic can get away with it, and not piss off the customer base, it boils down to whats best for them as a company. Personally, I am holding my purchases for Steam only. 

Get rid of exclusives, and let the 2 companies battle over game pricing,  % of sales being taken. It will be good for the game producers and the consumers.  

moshra

boris20 said:

Competition, great. Bring it on. 

Cant blame steam for charging 30% of cut on game sales, its a business, the point is to maximize profits, they see a market and what they can charge, they do it. Now that there is competition, they will need to adjust accordingly or lose business. 

I do not support Epics exclusives. Bring competition yes. That is great. But I do not care for being forced to buy from somewhere. That under cuts the pricing battle between the 2 companies. But as a business, if Epic can get away with it, and not piss off the customer base, it boils down to whats best for them as a company. Personally, I am holding my purchases for Steam only. 

Get rid of exclusives, and let the 2 companies battle over game pricing,  % of sales being taken. It will be good for the game producers and the consumers.  

Steam would be able to match any price EPIC put out there.  Why would anybody use EPIC launcher if they can just purchase the same games for a comparable price from the Steam launcher that most people already have a large library of games on? 

This was the only thing Epic could do to actually compete with Steam.

elveone

Epic basically rolled out their store as soon as possible and it was still after Valve have launched countermeasures for competition in the form of their progressing revenue share model. Also they had partners to think about - companies who were willing to sign with them but could not afford any waiting time. EGS did launch in a barebones but functional state and I've been using it since day 1 without any significant problems that could not be resolved by deleting some old web-cache.

Why they did what they did - based on years upon years of experience it seems that exclusives are the only way to bring large audience quickly to a new store. Epic seem to have learned by what Valve did to Stardock and Direct2Drive and basically emulate it - they provide better conditions to the developers in order to secure exclusive content. Valve did it with Steamworks that was a great time and money saver but did make games exclusive to Steam and Epic are doing it with pure monetary measures and some technology as well(like the crossplay technology they are testing with Dauntless).

Aeander, they seem to be funding new games and new technologies as well so it is not just giving money to games that are in-development and somewhat close to release.

Mendel

It does spark the curiosity a bit.  There was definitely a rush to market with a half-finished product.  The Epic strategy seems to be more focused on "exclusive" content, rather than any desire to compete with Steam.  I guess they hope that their exclusive offerings will drive customers to their store rather than the features of their storefront.

Home Depot seems to do okay with cement floors; I can only guess that Epic is following that model rather than putting carpet in every store.

gervaise1

Vandarix said:

Exclusives: They reel you in put you in shackles and tell you you can only get this game from us. I support competition. However, I do not support being told who I can buy from.

So as a buyer you want a choice of who to buy from so that you get the best deal yes?
And - because of the competition you see a game sold by X at one price and the exact same game sold by another at a higher price.
You buy from the cheaper store I assume. Three cheers for competition.



Now put yourself in a game developers shoes. 
They are also buyers - specifically buyers of a platform on which to sell their game. 
They look at all the stores out their: Steam, Origin, UPlay ... Epic. One store offers to sell them what they need at X, another at X+Y, another at X +30% etc. etc.
They - may - decide to buy from the cheapest store. Three cheers for competition yes?

And they may very well feel that you should not tell them were to buy from. 



So if you really believe what you posted you should be fully behind any developer who goes with e.g. Epic because Epic offer them a better deal.

Popple

As a Customer i shop for value and pricing and free games. Regardless if it is Humble Bundle, Steam or Epic, etc. I go where where the game is on sale or free..

Amathe

With every passing day I fall farther behind in my understanding of the gaming world. I don't know what Epic is (other than something I worked on for 6 months in EQ). 

Kyleran

Amathe said:

With every passing day I fall farther behind in my understanding of the gaming world. I don't know what Epic is (other than something I worked on for 6 months in EQ). 

Whatever you do, don't look it up.

  

Amathe

Kyleran said:

Amathe said:

With every passing day I fall farther behind in my understanding of the gaming world. I don't know what Epic is (other than something I worked on for 6 months in EQ). 

Whatever you do, don't look it up.

  

Omg that's like in a horror movie. Don't open that door! So now I have to open it. 

Kyleran

My armchair developer's opinion is they didn't have or hire many staff with previous large online storefront development experience so asked some of their regular game devs to throw something together. 

Hey, it's all software,  how hard could it really be?

Amathe

Ok I looked. A website that sells games. Someone thinks this is bad? Lots of websites sell games. 

I am no wiser than before.

Phry

Mendel said:

It does spark the curiosity a bit.  There was definitely a rush to market with a half-finished product.  The Epic strategy seems to be more focused on "exclusive" content, rather than any desire to compete with Steam.  I guess they hope that their exclusive offerings will drive customers to their store rather than the features of their storefront.

Home Depot seems to do okay with cement floors; I can only guess that Epic is following that model rather than putting carpet in every store.

On the other hand, Home Depot doesn't force you to purchase every item one at a time. Beats me why the EGS is so primitive, do they really not have anyone there that can code?

lahnmir

I can handle only one heated discussion a day so I am sitting this one out 

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Melecon

I don't understand the issue with EGS discussion and the hate. If I was a developer (which I have been playing with Unity and UE4 for 3 to 5 years) I would go with what gave me the best deal to. Right now I can use the UE4 engine to develop on for free or buy a support package if I wish. With that make my game and only have to pay royalties on when I make money. BUT if I sell my game on the EGS then I don't have to pay royalties and just a cut of the sales from the store (which is cheaper then the royalties BTW) Sign me up. You also what to give me money to make it exclusive sh*t son this just got a whole lot better......

When has steam done anything close to this?

Epic is trying to win the war on third part game engine sales, and  this is a tool they are using to do that which they are winning by the way. People are leaving Unity in droves to look at what Epic is doing now. You even have to look at the money they are giving Developers that got caught up with Spatial/OS crap that Unity was pulling about the time the EGS was launched also..... They don't really care about Steam competition 

FlyByKnight

Sir, many were lost and badly injured during the MMORPG.COM Steam vs EGS Battle

Please don't ask us to pick up arms again. I fear we won't make it this time. 

cameltosis

For me, the issue is less about exclusives or competition, and more about how I will be able to access my games in the future.

In the old bricks-and-mortar days, when I bought a game, I owned the physical copy. As long as I looked after that physical copy, I would be able to play that game for the rest of my life. What happened in the wider industry had no effect on my ability to play games I already owned. It didn't matter that the store I bought Mario Kart 64 from shut down, because I already owned the game.

Digital distribution is a different beast entirely.

I no longer own the game. My ability to play the game in the future is 100% dependant on the digital store where I made my purchase.

This changes the relationship between customer and business entirely. I now have a vested interest in making sure the company I purchase my games from stays afloat. If Steam were to shut down tomorrow, I lose access to a few £1000 worth of games. That is completely unacceptable, hence I have a very strong desire to see Valve succeed.

So, the Epic store.

It's new(ish), it's barebones, and its from a company I don't really know well. They've made a butt load of cash from Fortnite, a game I dislike and view as just the latest fad. I don't know what other money they have.

This means that in my eyes, I'm not willing to trust their store. Not yet. I don't want to start sinking money into their store, only to have it shut down in a years time because they couldn't stand up to the competition. I've already lost access to maybe £150 worth of games that I bought through digital stores, either due to technical fuckups (looking at you EA) or the company ceasing business.

I'll wait. I didn't trust Steam either, in fact I hated them when they first launched because all the games I was physically purchasing still required me to log into steam to activate. But, over teh years I saw it grow, add features, and prove itself to have long term viability. Epic needs to earn my trust in a similar way. Which is a shame, because my brother wanted to buy us both a copy of Borderlands 3, but as its an Epic exclusive, we're gonna pass.

gervaise1

cameltosis said:

For me, the issue is less about exclusives or competition, and more about how I will be able to access my games in the future.

<snip>

I no longer own the game. My ability to play the game in the future is 100% dependant on the digital store where I made my purchase.

<snip>

Being able to play games - and other products - that have an online element is an issue.

Don't - however - make the mistake of believing you don't own a game that you buy electronically.

In the case of Steam they have now lost multiple legal battles within the EU - most recently in September this year when the court ruled that their ban on reselling games was contrary to European law. Ditto their previous attempts to stop you moving your games to another platform - if the other platform would have them etc.

Steam are selling the games. They are not renting them to you. They are not leasing them. They are not charging you for Gaming as a Service. As such you own the game.

Now what happens when a platform - for games, films, music and other stuff - closes that is a different matter. 

elveone

Rhoklaw said:

AAAMEOW said:

You make it sound like epic are only selling exclusive but not working on their storefront.  They most likely are doing both at the same time.

As for exclusive I think it is necessary.  People won't jump to epic if they aren't incentive to do so. Regular free games, promotion, exclusive to make people a habit to use their store.

As a consumer, I wish epic and steam go to a price war.  But don't look like it at the moment.
  

Wrong, wrong, wrong. EGS could have offered discounts not only to developers but customers as well. If they have billions, then it wouldn't hurt them to spread some of that love no? Instead, their approach was to gouge the gaming market with exclusive deals, forcing players to use their platform or else. This to me is just a really really piss poor approach to building a gaming community to use your store.

EDIT: I guess I didn't see your last sentence, which is basically what I was getting at. Anyhow, you are correct about that.

A point - Epic are not responsible for the prices they are selling games at at their store - developers and publishers are. And some of them, although not many, have actually lowered their prices due to the increased cut their get from Epic.

gervaise1

elveone said:

Rhoklaw said:

AAAMEOW said:

You make it sound like epic are only selling exclusive but not working on their storefront.  They most likely are doing both at the same time.

As for exclusive I think it is necessary.  People won't jump to epic if they aren't incentive to do so. Regular free games, promotion, exclusive to make people a habit to use their store.

As a consumer, I wish epic and steam go to a price war.  But don't look like it at the moment.
  

Wrong, wrong, wrong. EGS could have offered discounts not only to developers but customers as well. If they have billions, then it wouldn't hurt them to spread some of that love no? Instead, their approach was to gouge the gaming market with exclusive deals, forcing players to use their platform or else. This to me is just a really really piss poor approach to building a gaming community to use your store.

EDIT: I guess I didn't see your last sentence, which is basically what I was getting at. Anyhow, you are correct about that.

A point - Epic are not responsible for the prices they are selling games at at their store - developers and publishers are. And some of them, although not many, have actually lowered their prices due to the increased cut their get from Epic.

Agree.

And EGS have offered discounts to their customers - independent of the developers.