The decline of grouping started with WoW and with each release after that became more of a secondary consideration to the gameplay. The funny thing is when you suggest to solo players that they might as well have NPC's taking the place of every player they don't like it. How on earth that matters to them when they never interact with others boggles the mind.
Well...tbh I found the NPCs in Fallout 4, and especially the companions more interesting and interactive than most players have been in the last 10 years of MMORPG I've played.
Though I did have to decline the guy on guy romance offers, I just don't swing that way.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And why bother playing mmorpg if you solo 100% of the time.
Edit: I understand there are multiple post of "why play mmorpg if you solo" already. I'm just confused when people ask that question because even though I play mmorpg solo, I still want to group time to time.
Me, I am anti-social and a hugely introverted person. I play MMO's because it adds to the immersion of being a living world.
MMO's are persistent whereas almost all RPG's have an ending.
MMO's I enjoy are all about exploration and growth (leveling) whereas most RPG's are about story and finishing the game (end game).
For this reason Asheron's Call will always be the best MMO ever created.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Whenever I get the urge to interact with another person online, I feel like a creeper. This could be a 13 yr old girl aim telling to go fuck herself and jump off a cliff.
Jokes aside, I’ve become much more uncomfortable talking to strangers online as Ive gotten older. I feel like most players are younger and would have nothing in common with me. Whats the point? Do I need new friends? No not really.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
And why bother playing mmorpg if you solo 100% of the time.
Edit: I understand there are multiple post of "why play mmorpg if you solo" already. I'm just confused when people ask that question because even though I play mmorpg solo, I still want to group time to time.
Me, I am anti-social and a hugely introverted person. I play MMO's because it adds to the immersion of being a living world.
MMO's are persistent whereas almost all RPG's have an ending.
MMO's I enjoy are all about exploration and growth (leveling) whereas most RPG's are about story and finishing the game (end game).
For this reason Asheron's Call will always be the best MMO ever created.
That's an excellent explanation, and I think quite viable in an MMO. Myself, I want my MMO to be full of diversity among player types, so I don't mind at all if someone else is playing different than I do. That's life.
Whenever I get the urge to interact with another person online, I feel like a creeper. This could be a 13 yr old girl aim telling to go fuck herself and jump off a cliff.
Jokes aside, I’ve become much more uncomfortable talking to strangers online as Ive gotten older. I feel like most players are younger and would have nothing in common with me. Whats the point? Do I need new friends? No not really.
I totally get that. But for me I prefer to "test the waters" when it comes to dealing with other players. My hopes are always to find "like minded" players to forge a gaming relationship with.
Well, lets see......When I'm tanking a group of six, three are simultaneously pulling different mobs, one is screaming at me to learn to "play my class" because I can't simultaneously grab aggro on the three different mobs, one is busy collecting "shinies", and the last is afk on their cellphone.
Now you know why I avoid grouping.
By the way, add a third vote for "Do we really need to create another solo thread". Willing to bet that the creaters of these solo threads are the same people that are in my group example above...…..
maybe my character is not gender neutral enough, maybe my character is not inclusive of all races enough,
I guess you miss the good ole days when good old boys could spit out an epithet with their chaw and no one would speak up. Back when no one was ... too sensitive.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I recall meeting a player in an EVE mining chat channel who had been continuously subscribed since launch with a couple of accounts.
He had done nothing else but solo mine in high sec for like 13 years except for a very brief time when he joined a Corp which he promptly quit after the first wardec.
What's really really mind blowing about this, is that I probably made more ISK in one year half-ass mining ABC's with just two of my Rorqs in null sec, than he made in 13 years mining in high sec.
Now, I know that each player has a different idea of what is fun, but I can't personally comprehend a more mind numbingly boring way to play EVE than to mine in high sec on two accounts for 13 years.
All of that being said, I also mostly play other games solo. EVE is really hard to play solo, so I've always been part of a group for nearly two decades. But many other games, I just want to experience the world without all of the politics and drama of being part of an organization.
I've played at least a dozen MMORPG's all the way to max level, completely solo, before leaving the game cause I didn't want to get involved with raiding and schedules and crap.
I recall meeting a player in an EVE mining chat channel who had been continuously subscribed since launch with a couple of accounts.
He had done nothing else but solo mine in high sec for like 13 years except for a very brief time when he joined a Corp which he promptly quit after the first wardec.
What's really really mind blowing about this, is that I probably made more ISK in one year half-ass mining ABC's with just two of my Rorqs in null sec, than he made in 13 years mining in high sec.
Now, I know that each player has a different idea of what is fun, but I can't personally comprehend a more mind numbingly boring way to play EVE than to mine in high sec on two accounts for 13 years.
All of that being said, I also mostly play other games solo. EVE is really hard to play solo, so I've always been part of a group for nearly two decades. But many other games, I just want to experience the world without all of the politics and drama of being part of an organization.
I've played at least a dozen MMORPG's all the way to max level, completely solo, before leaving the game cause I didn't want to get involved with raiding and schedules and crap.
You can solo mine in Nulsec however, more to the point I think what he was trying to say is this guy didn't much care for isk or people, people always want to fit others into their vision of how a game should be played and the other side really doesn't care about your vision. Just an example,
I did the same thing in Eve, the drama and bullshit were just too much. Yeah, I lost ships, but that is part of the game. It was a much better experience for me to only group with people I know IRL or just solo. Which is how I feel about most games at this point.
Thankfully we get to rehash this topic again. Maybe it will be back next week too!
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I recall meeting a player in an EVE mining chat channel who had been continuously subscribed since launch with a couple of accounts.
He had done nothing else but solo mine in high sec for like 13 years except for a very brief time when he joined a Corp which he promptly quit after the first wardec.
Mining can be very relaxing in Eve if you find the right spot with no one around.
It's funny because right now I'm playing a game that gets a lot of hate here. Eternal Magic is very solo-friendly but the group content is so much fun. They have challenges that are not just combat. You have to work as a real team to complete them and if you're in a guild the rewards for the guild are really great.
And why bother playing mmorpg if you solo 100% of the time.
Edit: I understand there are multiple post of "why play mmorpg if you solo" already. I'm just confused when people ask that question because even though I play mmorpg solo, I still want to group time to time.
I absolutely think that "solo" should also include people who multi-box. If they are not available to group with someone, they are effectively solo.
It's not been uncommon in EQ1 to see three characters boxing. This practice became even more common after the introduction of Mercenaries. I can't count how many "groups" of Mage, Shaman and Enchanter running around with matching names (Auld, Buld, Culd). I see names like that in a zone and I know my chances of finding/making a group are reduced.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I know the feeling. I was healing a druid tank that was body pulling while the undead mage is unloading even before the tank can grab aggro and halfway through the mage says I have dinner and bye and disconnects after rolling need of most of the drops.
The rogue is needing healing which he should not be if he played properly and the mage is getting hit every pull because he keeps attacking before the tank can get aggro. Probably left because the hunter yes the hunter asks him to wait before he damages the mob. Then the mage keeps on using an area freeze making it even harder on the druid. I felt sorry for the tank.
When I am thinking the hunter was the only one that was doing fine his pet goes and pulls another group we weren't even targeting and we wipe. I thought people would quit but in spite of everything we finish the run with just the 4 of us (we never replaced the mage).
Tell me honestly how many people will want to deal with this type of headaches every time we log on. I just shrugged it off but after a long day I think this kind of grouping will make you pull your hair out. Perfectly understand why people solo.
I invariably play solo these days, and have done for 5 or 6 years now. I consider all the other players in a game as a bunch of glorified NPC vendors/crafters with chatbot skills. They buy my crap for more than a real NPC vendor would (AH or other similar ingame trading function) and I buy the stuff off them that I can't be bothered to craft. WIn/win. I'm not interested in chatting with them, but DO actually socialise with people.... just not people in-game. I voice chat as I play, but only to RL family and friends.
In EQ1 I grouped about 90-95% of the time...After that the games started to cater to soloers so I toned down my grouping...By the time WoW came around, I started burning out on grouping...Players had no clue what they were doing and grouping was no longer fun......The last 10 years has pretty much been solo.
I do most of the time. It seems every game I play and get a PUG group, a dungeon that should take 30-45 min takes hours. I am not a perfect player and have been the reason in the past for those long runs but I will always let others know before I start the dungeon.
If people are soloing most of the time,the developer did a piss poor job of designing a mmo<<<MMO+rpg.
The design should be one where killing mobs is only efficient within agroup and struggles badly as a solo player because you won't have the various buffs/debuffs several different classes can offer. The necessity of buffs and debuffs is also important to good combat design,it relies on the group to react to various conditions instead of smash icon 2-3 really fast...dead.
So for example,you rolled a Samurai,a deadly dps type class but your facing a mob that has very high defense and uses it's own buff to become basically invincible.No problem,one of your classes casts a buff removal spell or perhaps weakens a mobs defense to the point your attack can actually override it's defense so you can damage it.Another class might up yoru defense so that you can survive a high dps mob.
Another scenario might be a mob can only be damaged from the back,so you need a type of class that can draw hate so that you can damage the mob from behind.However you might be a that Samurai,high dps,so a couple hits and you steal hate,well another class might have the ability to transfer hate from you to the tank or their own hate to the tank giving the tank a very high hate meter.
I drew up a few easy design examples that even the most popular games seldom if ever use,this again proves why i detest so many of these mmorpg designs as being out right crap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And why bother playing mmorpg if you solo 100% of the time.
Edit: I understand there are multiple post of "why play mmorpg if you solo" already. I'm just confused when people ask that question because even though I play mmorpg solo, I still want to group time to time.
the real world if one giant MMO when you think about it. Most of the time I am SOLO. On my own. Doing my thing.
Thats no different from MMOs I play. I do group stuff with others and play in the world together when we bump into each other. Not forced. I do stuff. When in Open World PvP I like to team up with others for protection and better fun offensive attacks.
I solo pretty much 100% now, when I play MMOs. Most are too fast paced to actually socialize, so out of combat is when socializing happens for me.
I recall my first forays into City of Heroes. My first day I was asked to group almost constantly. But I didn't know the game or my character. I wanted to get an idea of both before grouping. I didn't want to cause wipes or other disasters
I keep hoping for an MMORPG that is made that has me wanting to group instead of having to group. Even so, I'm not all that thrilled with the caliber of players today.
In the end, grouping today just isn't fun for me anymore.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Well, lets see......When I'm tanking a group of six, three are simultaneously pulling different mobs, one is screaming at me to learn to "play my class" because I can't simultaneously grab aggro on the three different mobs, one is busy collecting "shinies", and the last is afk on their cellphone.
Now you know why I avoid grouping.
By the way, add a third vote for "Do we really need to create another solo thread". Willing to bet that the creaters of these solo threads are the same people that are in my group example above...…..
This is why you group in your guild and only invite people outside of the guild who are known to your guild members.
Mind you I think you are overstating the case for "Don't let a bad PUG get you down". It is sad really, that signature call of Bill Murphy which was good advice on playing a MMORPG has such less relevance now as PUG's are much less common. Today it would be better phrased "Don't let the solo culture of a game which is supposed to be massively multiplayer get you down." That's my guilds attitude and that of many like minded ones, play it your way in spite of the crap modern MMOs have thrown at us.
Mind you I think you are overstating the case for "Don't let a bad PUG get you down". It is sad really, that signature call of Bill Murphy which was good advice on playing a MMORPG has such less relevance now as PUG's are much less common. Today it would be better phrased "Don't let the solo culture of a game which is supposed to be massively multiplayer get you down." That's my guilds attitude and that of many like minded ones, play it your way in spite of the crap modern MMOs have thrown at us.
Loved that phrase, I was running around in TSW with that line and Bill's face printed on my back (mmorpg.com trench coat) - but TSW is gone now, alongside with that advice, at least in newer games and players...
"play it your way in spite of the crap modern MMOs have thrown at us", I have an even better solution, I just avoid those crap modern "MMOs" entirely.
Sure, it means my youngest games are 10 years old... and also more on the niche side. I've found those have much better communities overall.
As for grouping, CO has an event right now which is around open raid world boss fights, which means grouping all the time, and while most of those are PUGs, they don't get you down, people coordinate pretty well.
This is why you group in your guild and only invite people outside of the guild who are known to your guild members.
Mind you I think you are overstating the case for "Don't let a bad PUG get you down". It is sad really, that signature call of Bill Murphy which was good advice on playing a MMORPG has such less relevance now as PUG's are much less common. Today it would be better phrased "Don't let the solo culture of a game which is supposed to be massively multiplayer get you down." That's my guilds attitude and that of many like minded ones, play it your way in spite of the crap modern MMOs have thrown at us.
You do realize that guilds come with their own sense of politics and drama queens?
Which is not overstating the point that I play MMOs to relax and enjoy, and being a part of others arrogance, tender insecurities, immaturity, ignorance, and other foibles is not required as part of my gaming experience.
MMOs are now designed to be E-Z Bake: join a group and roll a dungeon in 5 minutes or less, than go roll another dungeon in 5 minutes. Race thru the game, aggro mobs, forget story, forget looking around, forget exploring. Grab the loot, advertise and sell it on voice chat, then do it again, ad nauseum. Get tired of that, move to the next game. It's no coincidence that my gaming experience degrades as soon as the school bus brings the kiddies home for the day.
It's was the main reason for cash shops, parents could park their kids in front of a free computer game for hours at a time and not have to deal with the little terrors. And guess what, after almost 20 yrs of MMOs the kiddies have grown up, but their gaming style hasn't.
Developers now cater to them/this style because it boosts the player numbers, makes them look successful so they can sell the game/studio to some cash rich Asian Company to cash in themselves. Why keep running a game and working on expansions when you can cash in by selling it, buy a beachfront house, and relax in the sun?
And if a developer decides to do it again, why use their own money when they can raise hundreds of millions of dollars in cash from the gaming community by selling "Founders Packs", spaceships, promises of "something for everyone", or some other such nonsense, while keeping their own money safe and secure?
And if a developer drifts away from this "new" business model, then gamers feel their game will "fail".
Just look at how many people feel Pantheon will fail because it's "old style" and won't grab the player numbers the new style games do? It's not a game to race through dungeons in 5 minutes, grabbing and insta-slaughter mobs mindlessly. It's a subscription model, and won't capture WOW like numbers.
Comments
Though I did have to decline the guy on guy romance offers, I just don't swing that way.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO's are persistent whereas almost all RPG's have an ending.
MMO's I enjoy are all about exploration and growth (leveling) whereas most RPG's are about story and finishing the game (end game).
For this reason Asheron's Call will always be the best MMO ever created.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Jokes aside, I’ve become much more uncomfortable talking to strangers online as Ive gotten older. I feel like most players are younger and would have nothing in common with me. Whats the point? Do I need new friends? No not really.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Myself, I want my MMO to be full of diversity among player types, so I don't mind at all if someone else is playing different than I do.
That's life.
Once upon a time....
I totally get that. But for me I prefer to "test the waters" when it comes to dealing with other players. My hopes are always to find "like minded" players to forge a gaming relationship with.
Once upon a time....
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Now, I know that each player has a different idea of what is fun, but I can't personally comprehend a more mind numbingly boring way to play EVE than to mine in high sec on two accounts for 13 years.
All of that being said, I also mostly play other games solo. EVE is really hard to play solo, so I've always been part of a group for nearly two decades. But many other games, I just want to experience the world without all of the politics and drama of being part of an organization.
I've played at least a dozen MMORPG's all the way to max level, completely solo, before leaving the game cause I didn't want to get involved with raiding and schedules and crap.
I did the same thing in Eve, the drama and bullshit were just too much. Yeah, I lost ships, but that is part of the game. It was a much better experience for me to only group with people I know IRL or just solo. Which is how I feel about most games at this point.
Thankfully we get to rehash this topic again. Maybe it will be back next week too!
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The rogue is needing healing which he should not be if he played properly and the mage is getting hit every pull because he keeps attacking before the tank can get aggro. Probably left because the hunter yes the hunter asks him to wait before he damages the mob. Then the mage keeps on using an area freeze making it even harder on the druid. I felt sorry for the tank.
When I am thinking the hunter was the only one that was doing fine his pet goes and pulls another group we weren't even targeting and we wipe. I thought people would quit but in spite of everything we finish the run with just the 4 of us (we never replaced the mage).
Tell me honestly how many people will want to deal with this type of headaches every time we log on. I just shrugged it off but after a long day I think this kind of grouping will make you pull your hair out. Perfectly understand why people solo.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
The design should be one where killing mobs is only efficient within agroup and struggles badly as a solo player because you won't have the various buffs/debuffs several different classes can offer.
The necessity of buffs and debuffs is also important to good combat design,it relies on the group to react to various conditions instead of smash icon 2-3 really fast...dead.
So for example,you rolled a Samurai,a deadly dps type class but your facing a mob that has very high defense and uses it's own buff to become basically invincible.No problem,one of your classes casts a buff removal spell or perhaps weakens a mobs defense to the point your attack can actually override it's defense so you can damage it.Another class might up yoru defense so that you can survive a high dps mob.
Another scenario might be a mob can only be damaged from the back,so you need a type of class that can draw hate so that you can damage the mob from behind.However you might be a that Samurai,high dps,so a couple hits and you steal hate,well another class might have the ability to transfer hate from you to the tank or their own hate to the tank giving the tank a very high hate meter.
I drew up a few easy design examples that even the most popular games seldom if ever use,this again proves why i detest so many of these mmorpg designs as being out right crap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
On my own. Doing my thing.
Thats no different from MMOs I play. I do group stuff with others and play in the world together when we bump into each other. Not forced. I do stuff. When in Open World PvP I like to team up with others for protection and better fun offensive attacks.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I recall my first forays into City of Heroes. My first day I was asked to group almost constantly. But I didn't know the game or my character. I wanted to get an idea of both before grouping. I didn't want to cause wipes or other disasters
I keep hoping for an MMORPG that is made that has me wanting to group instead of having to group. Even so, I'm not all that thrilled with the caliber of players today.
In the end, grouping today just isn't fun for me anymore.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Mind you I think you are overstating the case for "Don't let a bad PUG get you down". It is sad really, that signature call of Bill Murphy which was good advice on playing a MMORPG has such less relevance now as PUG's are much less common. Today it would be better phrased "Don't let the solo culture of a game which is supposed to be massively multiplayer get you down." That's my guilds attitude and that of many like minded ones, play it your way in spite of the crap modern MMOs have thrown at us.
Which is not overstating the point that I play MMOs to relax and enjoy, and being a part of others arrogance, tender insecurities, immaturity, ignorance, and other foibles is not required as part of my gaming experience.
MMOs are now designed to be E-Z Bake: join a group and roll a dungeon in 5 minutes or less, than go roll another dungeon in 5 minutes. Race thru the game, aggro mobs, forget story, forget looking around, forget exploring. Grab the loot, advertise and sell it on voice chat, then do it again, ad nauseum. Get tired of that, move to the next game. It's no coincidence that my gaming experience degrades as soon as the school bus brings the kiddies home for the day.
It's was the main reason for cash shops, parents could park their kids in front of a free computer game for hours at a time and not have to deal with the little terrors.
And guess what, after almost 20 yrs of MMOs the kiddies have grown up, but their gaming style hasn't.
Developers now cater to them/this style because it boosts the player numbers, makes them look successful so they can sell the game/studio to some cash rich Asian Company to cash in themselves. Why keep running a game and working on expansions when you can cash in by selling it, buy a beachfront house, and relax in the sun?
And if a developer decides to do it again, why use their own money when they can raise hundreds of millions of dollars in cash from the gaming community by selling "Founders Packs", spaceships, promises of "something for everyone", or some other such nonsense, while keeping their own money safe and secure?
And if a developer drifts away from this "new" business model, then gamers feel their game will "fail".
Just look at how many people feel Pantheon will fail because it's "old style" and won't grab the player numbers the new style games do? It's not a game to race through dungeons in 5 minutes, grabbing and insta-slaughter mobs mindlessly. It's a subscription model, and won't capture WOW like numbers.
Mind bogling, I know....