For MMORPG's I want a game that has a stable difficulty that allows you to decide if you want to go into the more difficult aspects. I do like raid difficulty options, as it allows you to experience the raid for lesser gear without having to make it your full time job. But the option for harder difficulty is always there.
One other thing is a lot of people sincerely on some level enjoy pain and the more painful something is in an MMORPG the more convinced they become that this is the way it should be and they will defend the painful mechanic to the ends of the earth with all their mental fiber.
The more pain endured the less likely such a player will be to leave the game and the better the retention.
One other thing is a lot of people sincerely on some level enjoy pain and the more painful something is in an MMORPG the more convinced they become that this is the way it should be and they will defend the painful mechanic to the ends of the earth with all their mental fiber.
The more pain endured the less likely such a player will be to leave the game and the better the retention.
A little unclear....
Are you saying challenge = pain ? Please tell me your not !
I read in college (long ago) about a psychological experiment.
The researchers made up an organization that the test subjects were allowed to join.
Testers were divided into groups. Some did nothing to have to join - just signed a paper saying they wanted to. Some had to do tasks. And some had to do a lot of tasks.
After a few weeks the testers were asked about how favorably they felt towards the group. The ones who had to do a lot loved the group. The ones who didn't do much, didn't care.
Gamers are like this also. Those of us who crawled over glass to level 60 in some game value that accomplishment, and don't want to see some other guy get there in an afternoon.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
My moods change. Sometimes, I feel like overcoming a great challenge. Other times, I just want to "veg out" with nary a thought.
Generally speaking, I can have fun in easy games. That fun usually doesn't last very long before I get bored and think, "What's the point?" On the other hand, I know my own gaming limitations and don't find repeatedly banging my "virtual head" on the "virtual wall" fun at all.
I do like my games to have some amount depth complexity for my maximum fun.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I want different aspects of the game to have different approaches to difficulty.
I want solo questing to not be a breeze. I want the raid difficulty to come from the annoyance and inconvenience of having to get and deal with such a large group.
My favorite type of content will always be the most difficult - either 2v2 arena or pushing group content while solo.
When you say depth, I don't see a lot of depth in difficulty. I see depth in systems and mechanics. More difficult content can really get you to learn the systems and mechanics, or having emerging significant of certain aspects - but I think we've all seen bloat and nonsense like multipliers masquerading as "difficulty."
For me, I can be very forgiving if a game has the systems I crave (an rpg system with a lot of depth, choices, and meat).
There are a few people on this site who insist Dark Souls isn't difficult. I don't think they get what "difficult" means just because they think it isn't and a great many people do.
Internet "chest thumping" is alive and well
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
I think that's great. You must be an awesome player. Catch us up and start with your adventures setting a game wide first downing Quarm in EQ's Plane of Time.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
I think that's great. You must be an awesome player. Catch us up and start with your adventures setting a game wide first downing Quarm in EQ's Plane of Time.
I'm confused. Are you saying that unless you're the first person to do something, it must be difficult? Or are you saying that the guild who killed Quarm first did so solely because of player skill and time investment had nothing to do with it?
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
I think that's great. You must be an awesome player. Catch us up and start with your adventures setting a game wide first downing Quarm in EQ's Plane of Time.
I'm confused. Are you saying that unless you're the first person to do something, it must be difficult? Or are you saying that the guild who killed Quarm first did so solely because of player skill and time investment had nothing to do with it?
Oh gee now I'm confused. When did you kill Quarm, and while in what guild?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
You're right. Considering they require the most time investment they are by far and away the most difficult games in existence!
Some and some things in them, far more than others.
Give your head a shake. Did you think difficulty was just about how quickly and accurately you can mash keys or controller buttons? Difficult in Diablo 3 is when you can solo GR 130+. People brag about it and post video links about their accomplishment.
How do you do GR 130+ clears? Well you grind the living shit out of the game until you have the absolutely perfectly rolled gear and 3000+ Paragon points all of which takes 100s of hours.
There's hardly any difference between that and doing the grind in MMORPGs to have the level and gear to do the hardest raids. At that point there's maybe some button mashing skill that comes into it but it's the long ass grind that got you there.
Edit: Bloodborne lol. You're proving what we all knew already. You're a leet button masher or at least you think you are.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
You're right. Considering they require the most time investment they are by far and away the most difficult games in existence!
Some and some things in them, far more than others.
Give your head a shake. Did you think difficulty was just about how quickly and accurately you can mash keys or controller buttons? Difficult in Diablo 3 is when you can solo GR 130+. People brag about it and post video links about their accomplishment.
How do you do GR 130+ clears? Well you grind the living shit out of the game until you have the absolutely perfectly rolled gear and 3000+ Paragon points all of which takes 100s of hours.
There's hardly any difference between that and doing the grind in MMORPGs to have the level and gear to do the hardest raids. At that point there's maybe some button mashing skill that comes into it but it's the long ass grind that got you there.
Edit: Bloodborne lol. You're proving what we all knew already. You're a leet button masher or at least you think you are.
You got me. I'm a leet button masher because I don't find mindless grinding difficult. Since you resulted to personal attacks its pretty obvious your argument is shallow.
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
So would you say that a clicker that takes years to finish is a "difficult" game?
You'll have to take that up with the Oxford dictionary. It isn't my definition of difficult it is THE definition of it.
But I do see the point of there being just as much of case to be made for a long time effort to achieve something being no more nor less difficult than the dexterity based difficulty or the bullet sponge boss with one shot mechanics that some gamers think is the only part of the difficult definition that applies.
As I said in another thread one of the more difficult and enjoyable achievements that I ever got in WOW back when I played it regularly, was to go to every location in the game and get The Explorer achievement - that was difficult especially with a no-stealth Paladin in a PvP server and done over several months.
But conventional gamer "wisdom" would say that doing a tough raid choreography where you just need to know when to jump to the left and then step to the right for 2 hours is more difficult. I beg to differ.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
if i'm playing a game for its story i want it easy so i don't get interrupted. If i'm playing a game for its gameplay i want challenge so i don't lose interest. If the game is grindy, make the grind faceroll easy because the last thing i want is a menial task taking hours to complete.
If it's an online game (mmorpg or any other online genre) I think difficulty should scale up/down based on the number of people involved. That coupled with smart AI.
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
So would you say that a clicker that takes years to finish is a "difficult" game?
You'll have to take that up with the Oxford dictionary. It isn't my definition of difficult it is THE definition of it.
But I do see the point of there being just as much of case to be made for a long time effort to achieve something being no more nor less difficult than the dexterity based difficulty or the bullet sponge boss with one shot mechanics that some gamers think is the only part of the difficult definition that applies.
As I said in another thread one of the more difficult and enjoyable achievements that I ever got in WOW back when I played it regularly, was to go to every location in the game and get The Explorer achievement - that was difficult especially with a no-stealth Paladin in a PvP server and done over several months.
But conventional gamer "wisdom" would say that doing a tough raid choreography where you just need to know when to jump to the left and then step to the right for 2 hours is more difficult. I beg to differ.
The traditional raiding challenge of getting most of a lengthy, fixed list of players to all show up in the same place at the same time and pay attention is a legitimate type of challenge. It has more in common with organizing a birthday party than beating Ninja Gaiden, but that doesn't mean it's trivial to do. My objection to it is not that it's too easy, but that it's not interesting.
But if you want to argue dictionary definitions, I checked several, and there was nothing about "difficult" meaning having to wait a long time for something to finish.
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
You're right. Considering they require the most time investment they are by far and away the most difficult games in existence!
Some and some things in them, far more than others.
Give your head a shake. Did you think difficulty was just about how quickly and accurately you can mash keys or controller buttons? Difficult in Diablo 3 is when you can solo GR 130+. People brag about it and post video links about their accomplishment.
How do you do GR 130+ clears? Well you grind the living shit out of the game until you have the absolutely perfectly rolled gear and 3000+ Paragon points all of which takes 100s of hours.
There's hardly any difference between that and doing the grind in MMORPGs to have the level and gear to do the hardest raids. At that point there's maybe some button mashing skill that comes into it but it's the long ass grind that got you there.
Edit: Bloodborne lol. You're proving what we all knew already. You're a leet button masher or at least you think you are.
I could be wearing the same gear but I still can't be doing what the people on youtube do. And frankly I doubt most people can do what people on youtube do because that is why people post it(to showoff).
It probably just easy for you but difficult for other people.
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
You're right. Considering they require the most time investment they are by far and away the most difficult games in existence!
Some and some things in them, far more than others.
Give your head a shake. Did you think difficulty was just about how quickly and accurately you can mash keys or controller buttons? Difficult in Diablo 3 is when you can solo GR 130+. People brag about it and post video links about their accomplishment.
How do you do GR 130+ clears? Well you grind the living shit out of the game until you have the absolutely perfectly rolled gear and 3000+ Paragon points all of which takes 100s of hours.
There's hardly any difference between that and doing the grind in MMORPGs to have the level and gear to do the hardest raids. At that point there's maybe some button mashing skill that comes into it but it's the long ass grind that got you there.
Edit: Bloodborne lol. You're proving what we all knew already. You're a leet button masher or at least you think you are.
I could be wearing the same gear but I still can't be doing what the people on youtube do. And frankly I doubt most people can do what people on youtube do because that is why people post it(to showoff).
It probably just easy for you but difficult for other people.
I'm not discounting twitch reflex skill but D3 is extremely gear + Paragon point dependent. Pushing higher GRs is all about perfectly rolled Ancients and Primals and grinding a shitpile of Paragon points as well as grinding gems.
There are no new mobs nor new bosses in high GRs. You already saw them and their mechanics in lower GRs you have been doing all along. They just have more HP and they hit harder so you have to increase your mitigation and the damage you do... with more perfected gear, more Paragons and augmented gear using gems you leveled up to 100+.
Some squishy builds force you to move out of damage more carefully and more often and those do require better reflexes, but there are plenty of extremely tanky builds that let you ignore the damage even at those near-max GRs. Watch some of the high GR clear videos and you'll see players with those builds just stand there in the midst of huge damage coming at them from many mobs and just take it while they focus on killing everything.
But I'm not talking about myself. I don't do those extremely high clears because I typically get bored with the fiddly grind of perfecting the gear once I'm in the GR 100-110 range. That's when I stop playing that character and go play another class or the same class in hardcore permadeath mode.
That's the fun vs. difficulty breakpoint for me in that game.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Easy fun is like candy. It's awesome for a short period of time. It does not take long till you want something with substance. IMO a good MMO will have a balance of both.
Personally, I want a mmorpg where I can get legitimately left behind in. For example, if I stop at a certain raid tier, then I want the design to be that I still need to go through that raid tier to continue whatever progression. The reason why I like a design like this is because there's always going to be people around your the area you stop plus you dont feel like what you were working on just go automatically invalidated just because time went on without you or because developers deemed it useless content. This is why I dont consider most games with "high-end" content worth doing anymore. Sure, the fights are challenging and such but companies work on a "schedule." You have the highest difficulty being the way to get the "strongest" gear then they decide to scale things past that, so any tom/dick/harry who's been doing dailies the entire time can get better gear without actually trying. This leaves you in a position as a player because you see people with "high" gear over time that dont even have the skill to get it. Followed by the slap in the face by said people always saying "you should do content like that for the challenge, not the reward," yea right....
I've never played an MMORPG that is difficult. I assume OP means time consuming?
Difficult: Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
So would you say that a clicker that takes years to finish is a "difficult" game?
I have found "difficult" kind of personally defined. I find math easy while others describe it as difficult. I find learning foreign languages difficult while others find them easy to learn.
What I find on the internet is "the claims of difficult/easy" seem relative to what others say, to seemingly prove/disprove one's own epic gamerness
I only see that clicker game as a test of endurance, similar to running a marathon.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
The more pain endured the less likely such a player will be to leave the game and the better the retention.
Are you saying challenge = pain ?
Please tell me your not !
The researchers made up an organization that the test subjects were allowed to join.
Testers were divided into groups. Some did nothing to have to join - just signed a paper saying they wanted to. Some had to do tasks. And some had to do a lot of tasks.
After a few weeks the testers were asked about how favorably they felt towards the group. The ones who had to do a lot loved the group. The ones who didn't do much, didn't care.
Gamers are like this also. Those of us who crawled over glass to level 60 in some game value that accomplishment, and don't want to see some other guy get there in an afternoon.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Generally speaking, I can have fun in easy games. That fun usually doesn't last very long before I get bored and think, "What's the point?" On the other hand, I know my own gaming limitations and don't find repeatedly banging my "virtual head" on the "virtual wall" fun at all.
I do like my games to have some amount depth complexity for my maximum fun.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I want solo questing to not be a breeze. I want the raid difficulty to come from the annoyance and inconvenience of having to get and deal with such a large group.
My favorite type of content will always be the most difficult - either 2v2 arena or pushing group content while solo.
When you say depth, I don't see a lot of depth in difficulty. I see depth in systems and mechanics. More difficult content can really get you to learn the systems and mechanics, or having emerging significant of certain aspects - but I think we've all seen bloat and nonsense like multipliers masquerading as "difficulty."
For me, I can be very forgiving if a game has the systems I crave (an rpg system with a lot of depth, choices, and meat).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Is understanding the "effort OR skill " part too difficult for you?
What do you think time consumption is if not a form of effort?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
1-60 Classic wow average 240+ hours
Bloodborne average 35 hours main story.
World of Warcraft is WAAAAAY harder than bloodborne!!!!
Give your head a shake. Did you think difficulty was just about how quickly and accurately you can mash keys or controller buttons? Difficult in Diablo 3 is when you can solo GR 130+. People brag about it and post video links about their accomplishment.
How do you do GR 130+ clears? Well you grind the living shit out of the game until you have the absolutely perfectly rolled gear and 3000+ Paragon points all of which takes 100s of hours.
There's hardly any difference between that and doing the grind in MMORPGs to have the level and gear to do the hardest raids. At that point there's maybe some button mashing skill that comes into it but it's the long ass grind that got you there.
Edit: Bloodborne lol. You're proving what we all knew already. You're a leet button masher or at least you think you are.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
But I do see the point of there being just as much of case to be made for a long time effort to achieve something being no more nor less difficult than the dexterity based difficulty or the bullet sponge boss with one shot mechanics that some gamers think is the only part of the difficult definition that applies.
As I said in another thread one of the more difficult and enjoyable achievements that I ever got in WOW back when I played it regularly, was to go to every location in the game and get The Explorer achievement - that was difficult especially with a no-stealth Paladin in a PvP server and done over several months.
But conventional gamer "wisdom" would say that doing a tough raid choreography where you just need to know when to jump to the left and then step to the right for 2 hours is more difficult. I beg to differ.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
But if you want to argue dictionary definitions, I checked several, and there was nothing about "difficult" meaning having to wait a long time for something to finish.
It probably just easy for you but difficult for other people.
There are no new mobs nor new bosses in high GRs. You already saw them and their mechanics in lower GRs you have been doing all along. They just have more HP and they hit harder so you have to increase your mitigation and the damage you do... with more perfected gear, more Paragons and augmented gear using gems you leveled up to 100+.
Some squishy builds force you to move out of damage more carefully and more often and those do require better reflexes, but there are plenty of extremely tanky builds that let you ignore the damage even at those near-max GRs. Watch some of the high GR clear videos and you'll see players with those builds just stand there in the midst of huge damage coming at them from many mobs and just take it while they focus on killing everything.
But I'm not talking about myself. I don't do those extremely high clears because I typically get bored with the fiddly grind of perfecting the gear once I'm in the GR 100-110 range. That's when I stop playing that character and go play another class or the same class in hardcore permadeath mode.
That's the fun vs. difficulty breakpoint for me in that game.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What I find on the internet is "the claims of difficult/easy" seem relative to what others say, to seemingly prove/disprove one's own epic gamerness
I only see that clicker game as a test of endurance, similar to running a marathon.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR