Challenging solo content "in an mmorpg"?

AAAMEOW

I played vanilla Guild Wars 2.  The weird thing about combat in that game is every class is designed to be self sufficient.  So what end up happening is people can pretty much solo dungeons.  And soloing dungeon felt very similar to play dark souls.

But the awkward part about soloing dungeon in GW2 is some areas are only accessible if you have multiple people.  (for example a door can only be opened by having 2 people standing on different plateform).

I always felt GW2 should put some focus on making challenging solo content.  For example make a solo version of every dungeon in their game.  

Are there other mmorpg that have dark soul like solo content?  

Maurgrim

ESO, there you can solo some group dungeons and open world bosses with proper gear and tactic, only game I can think off.

sgel

Torghast, Tower of the Damned is a roguelike-style dungeon that's coming in the next WoW expansion.

It's meant to be soloed or done with a group... I assume the difficulty will scale.

Not sure if that information is helpful but it's the only thing that came to mind

iixviiiix

Why you need a solo version of them while you can solo them when you overpowered them with level and gears ?

cameltosis

There is a very good reason why we rarely get challenging solo content: progression

Stories and quests in MMORPGs are usually very linear and you must complete earlier content in order to access later content. When developers have experimented with putting challenging content during the leveling process, they always found that a significant segment of their community would get stuck on that challenging content, blocking progression, and then they quit.

There is also the issue of character development outside of story. The power levels of the players are so diverse that it's virtually impossible to balance the content so that it is genuinely challenging. Worse, even if you do make it challenging, the players can just get more power elsewhere and come back when it's easier.

This is why the only place devs can currently put challenging content is at endgame. But, they rarely put much challenging solo content at endgame.

I'm personally all in favour of much more challenging content for solo players (and for all players really!). I always find myself having to set my own challenges, such as how many mobs can I kill in one go, or how quickly can I kill something, or how many levels above me can I handle etc. Its the only way I can stave off the boredom of leveling in MMOs.

Hawkaya399

Most MMORPG players want a relaxing/casual experience. When things start to get hard, like in a survival game, they get frustrated and complain, or quit. Companies discovered making things easier relieves the players. Second to that, they want it story-driven more often than combat driven. This is why the move away from 1st (Everquest) and 2nd (Star Wars Galaxies) generation MMO's occurred. These were more combat-based progression. The next generation of MMO's started with WoW. This was more quest-based progression, and a lot more relaxed in its gameplay. Combat-based progression, especially when it's not relaxed, feels more grindy to most players.

When players want harder content, they tend to play a different genre. This doesn't mean MMORPGs can't appeal to them, but companies are less likely to try.

Single player games are less likely to suffer from this because they can be modded. MMO's are cursed with being harder to mod.

Some things in game design clash. This doesn't mean they can't go together, but it's much harder. Some examples are below.

1) PvP and PvE-progression: PvP clashes with progression-based games when they're together. It's like mixing together anarchy and order: BOOM. This is why most PvP in MMORPGs is restricted to arena's or instanced missions. Players don't like losing progression or having it threatened. This is also why death penalty and choices & consequences are not popular in progression-heavy games.

2) Combat and story: Players who want story usually don't want extra obstacles in the way, be those puzzles, combat, long travel or other things. IF those obstacles build on the story, it can be ok, but this is hard to do right since it has to hit a sweet spot and a story's nature is linear, meaning it excludes non-linear features that can be unpredictable obstacles to the story. It's vice versa for combat-driven players. Story will oftentimes limit their fun because combat is more restricted in those circumstances.

3) 4x empire and personal journey: In space games, at least, these can be hard to have in a single game, since they work on different levels with different expectations. Games usually are one or the other. If both are together, heavy sacrifices are usually made in one or the other so one wins out over the other.

So when game designrs try to merge these things what happens is one or the other usually becomes like the boy in the plastic bubble. Clever marketing and design can make it seem like the bubble isn't there to a casual observer, but that's why the best game designers and marketers are paid well.

Quizzical

Kritika Online is the game that you're looking for.  The En Masse version of it shut down earlier this year, so the developer relaunched it on Steam as Kritika Reboot.  The first three missions are really easy, as they're basically a tutorial.  After that, the difficulty is adjustable, so you can have a challenge if you want it.

Phaserlight

Sooo... based on my own experience, you could try the following:

Vendetta Online:

Training I -> Training II -> Training III -> Basic Flight Status Test -> Help! Rogue Queen Detected

The fifth mission a new player might encounter (in bold) is very 'above curve' in terms of difficulty, but also has a nice reward.  Easier paths are also available at this point.

Caffynated

I would love to find a game that has more content like Mushin's Tower in Blade & Soul.

vegetableoil

believe it or not... final fantasy xi... you can go in solo to dungeon and everything is group content difficulty it will be "challenging" as you said.

crankked

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

bcbully

Maelstorm Arena ESO. 

let us know if you ever beat it.

AAAMEOW

sgel said:

Torghast, Tower of the Damned is a roguelike-style dungeon that's coming in the next WoW expansion.

It's meant to be soloed or done with a group... I assume the difficulty will scale.

Not sure if that information is helpful but it's the only thing that came to mind

Interesting.  I always thought that action combat have to be the criteria to make challenging solo content.

That being said I did see a warlock soloing herioc dungeon back in burning crusade.  He mostly did it by exploiting mob pathing.  

Sovrath

crankked said:

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

Haven't there been people soloing certain World of Warcraft Dungeons? For the challenge? And they make videos and are apparently lauded for it.

It's not really new.

Wizardry

My theory is that the dev needs to reinforce the grouping idea at almost all times so that people get used to playing with others and expect content to be grouped.

Also my theory is that solo can be done sometimes but only after earning it via time spent on several classes to attain a versatile character.

I also detest any push towards constantly doing dungeons,i feel that type of design is just lame,lazy and serves no purpose to being a mmorpg.

When people mention solo content,i automatically feel they are always talking about soloing dungeons,we need to get that entire thought process of dungeons right out of mmorpg's.If developers are at all competent and trying to actually deliver a AAA mmorpg we would have CHOICE without ANY need for dungeons or at least dungeons should be open world to all at the same time.

@the last post,WOW is the worst game to compare anything properly done as Blizzard has no clue how to design a mmorpg.What they have is a gear grinder which involves linear dungeons to advance to the next tier dungeon,more of a dungeon runner than a mmorpg.Then don't get me started on linear questing for xp,another asinine idea.

crankked

Sovrath said:

crankked said:

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

Haven't there been people soloing certain World of Warcraft Dungeons? For the challenge? And they make videos and are apparently lauded for it.

It's not really new.

You're missing my point.  I know people have been doing it to challenge themselves.  But why is it being a requested feature in a genre meant to be played with others.  Devs shouldn't be spending time designing specific content for people to play solo in a MMORPG.  Go play single player games for that like Dark Souls.....

Po_gg

While in theory you're right, sadly there's an increasing demand for it, and devs love money...

I don't mind if games cater the solo player too, option is king. Honestly, sometime I used to play the lone wolf too.

But if the design is right, challenge shouldn't be an issue for a solo player, since they can attempt to overcome any of the countless group activities in the game. Requesting for solo-specific stuff, let alone OP's "focus on making challenging solo content" contradicts the very idea of an MMORPG...

Yet, it's still happening. I was just addressing a few days ago Neverwinter's new event, which is exactly what OP is seeking: solo-only, multiple tiered (challenge increasing) kill-a-thon. Because apparently solo is the new focus in a "massively multiplayer" game...

Vermillion_Raventhal

crankked said:

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

Solo combat doesn't mean single player MMORPG unless the whole game is combat based.  Narrative based MMORPG usually are the most single player MMORPG even with group dungeons and raids that most don't participate in or use LFG.

Arkade99

I can only recall two bits of challenging solo content in MMOs. One was the epic quests that were in WoW vanilla. Getting my bow as a hunter was fun and it's a shame they took those quests out rather than add more of them (I think only hunter and priest had them).

The other was the gatekeeper challenge in TSW that had to be completed before you could gain access to the endgame dungeons. That was fun, challenging and prepared people for what they would face in those dungeons. But of course, too many people cried that it was too hard, and when they went to SWL, it was removed.

Sovrath

crankked said:

Sovrath said:

crankked said:

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

Haven't there been people soloing certain World of Warcraft Dungeons? For the challenge? And they make videos and are apparently lauded for it.

It's not really new.

You're missing my point.  I know people have been doing it to challenge themselves.  But why is it being a requested feature in a genre meant to be played with others.  Devs shouldn't be spending time designing specific content for people to play solo in a MMORPG.  Go play single player games for that like Dark Souls.....

Oh, I understand your point just fine. I just don't agree with part of your premise. First of all, there are many ways for players to interact in an online game. They don't have to always be grouping. So if there are people who solo raid bosses then I don't see why there can't be people who want other challenging solo content.

The whole "you have to group" declaration always seems creepy to me. Like there is a group of people so desperate to impose their will. And why? Oh, I get that a game that gets people together should have a lot of group content and shouldn't diminish that content but if there are people who want to solo and don't mind progressing at a slower rate or even just playing that content as extremely challenging then that should be fine.


Again, some people like having others around. They might not feel compelled to group all the time. Additionally there is no guarantee that the people available to group are "good" people (whatever that means to each person) I know that personally I don't have patience for poisonous people and don't feel the need to suffer them.

And there are sure a lot of them in online games. Elsewhere as well.

Po_gg

Arkade99 said:

The other was the gatekeeper challenge in TSW that had to be completed before you could gain access to the endgame dungeons. That was fun, challenging and prepared people for what they would face in those dungeons. But of course, too many people cried that it was too hard, and when they went to SWL, it was removed.

Ah, GK... I miss that golden bastard - it's a shame how Funcom killed off TSW.

I feel however -unless I'm mistaken- it ain't what OP seeks. GK was a solo challenge, sure, but in a form of a test or exam, to gain access to more difficult group activities. (*)

OP seeks solo content on its own, kinda like a solo endgame. And not even simply the challenge to go as solo into group dungeons, but the actual making of new solo content for their solo needs.

That's why I mentioned Neverwinter, that is perfect for OP: new content, new endgame content, solo (and solo only, can't even access with friends) content, with increasing difficulty after a few successful runs.

Sounds stupid in an MMORPG, but apparently this is where the genre is heading now...

(*) loved how GK challenged your actual weight, and wasn't just a gearscore check like in the aforementioned Neverwinter. It tested how well could you perform in NM, and didn't care about your gear or selected abilities. If you could beat him in randomly picked blue talismans, you got a pass, since it meant you won't be a dead weight to your group. If you couldn't beat him even in full purples, no NMs for you.

Caffynated

crankked said:

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

There's nothing wrong with solo content in an MMO. It has its place and serves its own purpose.

The aforementioned Mushin's Tower for example made me a much better player. Before it came out I was a competent group member, could do competitive DPS, grab aggro sometimes and survive for a little while until it was somebody else's turn to get hit in the face. After having to optimize my playstyle and master my class to complete MT, I was able to put out top damage in most fights, hold aggro almost the entire time, and tank with ease without losing damage. That never would have happened if I hadn't had to face a solo challenge where you can't hide the flaws in your gameplay behind your group members' strengths.

Solo challenges shouldn't be the primary content in an MMO, but when done well they are great additions.

Amathe

I feel like if someone asks for challenging solo content, that's not really what they want. I know plenty of people who take their characters to places where they shouldn't be, killing things they weren't meant to kill at their level (alone). If you really want challenging solo content, make your own fun! If you want ez mode solo content, there is a lot of that out there too. Not sure why anyone would advocate for it. 

Gutlard

Student boards and escorts? I guess those can be challenging solo content.

Enjoy your flag either way.

Gut Out!

Quizzical

Sovrath said:

crankked said:

No one is going to mention the fact that someone is asking for challenging SOLO content in an MMORPG?

Play single player games that are specifically designed for such things.....facepalm....

Haven't there been people soloing certain World of Warcraft Dungeons? For the challenge? And they make videos and are apparently lauded for it.

It's not really new.

There's an enormous difference between being able to make something challenging by playing content in unintended ways and content that provides a challenge when played as intended.  There's also an enormous difference between a game having some occasional challenging content versus almost the entire game being challenging.

The reason I cited Kritika above is that just about everything from level 5 onward is reasonably challenging if you set the difficulty to max.  That's playing as intended and advancing at a normal rate, rather than having to stop progressing to do something weird and unintended.  It's not the hardest game in existence, but the only other MMO-like game that comes remotely close that I've found is Spiral Knights, and even that is only tier 3 content (depth 19 and onward).

Palebane

One day maybe one of these games will have a proper slider system to make things more challenging, instead of taking off pieces of gear to lower your own stats.