CIG Financials for 2018 published

TEKK3N

With 521 employees you could make 3x Witcher games in a 5 years period.

Kefo

botrytis said:

Most companies release last year's financials not the previous year. Kind of a red herring. 

Don’t forget those are just numbers that can be construed as marketing fluff. If they were honest about all this they would post balance sheets

botrytis

Kefo said:

botrytis said:

Most companies release last year's financials not the previous year. Kind of a red herring. 

Don’t forget those are just numbers that can be construed as marketing fluff. If they were honest about all this they would post balance sheets

You mean like Most other game companies do? As I said, their info is a red herring because it is over a year old and they have been touting 250 million invested in game company.

Shaigh

People ask for more information but for some people its never enough because it wasn't the information they were hoping for.

If you have a net position of $50M in 2018 and you are running at a $5-10M loss you are financially safe for a long time unless there is a significant drop in pledges or their minority investor apply pressure to get their money's worth.

The only way they would be in trouble is if they were using enron accounting but if that was the case they would have crashed before the $46M investment.

Rhime

rodarin said:

Spin is in full effect I see. This year last year...semantics. 2019 will be worse wont it?

Of course this is also exactly how a ponzi scheme scam would make itself look. When you control everything at the top and also include the 'reporting' of it you can make up any numbers you want and make them fit. When you already know the answer 'showing the work' isnt that difficult.

They 'spent' 50 million more or less in 2018. They had some 'epic' updates (if you believe the fanbois) but 50 million dollars worth? That shows the epic fail of this whole thing and just how far off the rails it has gone. How many actual RELEASED games have been fully and completely 'made' for less than 50 million dollars? Yet these guys (according to their own reporting) spent 50 million and had a few broken updates to a spliced together tech demo network.

It just shows the gross mismanagement of funds and how it continues.

500+ employees,. the framework of how many different engines now? Al the time and patience that is humanly possible yet theyre still floundering around.

It isnt like they have stuff 'in the can' somewhere. It is basically what you see is what you get. Sure they may have even more broken and buggy nonsense they have their super secret testers fooling around with. (most open development ever) but anyone that tries to claim what 'Star Citizen' is right now in its current state justifies the money spent on it is completely and utterly delusional. What exists doesnt even justify the money they continue to raise even if there are that many dreamers out there. But somehow it does and this scam keeps getting perpetuated.

I hope once wing commander or star lord or whatever theyre calling this single player game never sees the light of day and is also in perpetual delay mode people will realize chris roberts is the man he has always been. someone despite the laurels and accolades he and others want to heap on him has never ever seen a  project he has been in control of actually release with him in charge.

SC is just going to be another rule and certainly not an exception.

Stop being so negative Nancy...and btw, see you in the Verse.

Kefo

botrytis said:

Kefo said:

botrytis said:

Most companies release last year's financials not the previous year. Kind of a red herring. 

Don’t forget those are just numbers that can be construed as marketing fluff. If they were honest about all this they would post balance sheets

You mean like Most other game companies do? As I said, their info is a red herring because it is over a year old and they have been touting 250 million invested in game company.

Oh I wasn’t disagreeing with you lol I’m just pointing out what some people on this forum will gloss over

Kyleran

So.....read the entire thread, but not sure what the take away is.

Backers keep on backing, developers keep on developing, and maybe the single player version gets to beta in 2020?

botrytis

Kyleran said:

So.....read the entire thread, but not sure what the take away is.

Backers keep on backing, developers keep on developing, and maybe the single player version gets to beta in 2020?

More like never?

Kefo

Kyleran said:

So.....read the entire thread, but not sure what the take away is.

Backers keep on backing, developers keep on developing, and maybe the single player version gets to beta in 2020?

Beta will arrive in [current year] + 1

gervaise1

botrytis said:

Most companies release last year's financials not the previous year. Kind of a red herring. 

I suppose if they published the financials for year ending 2019 you would say they had to be lying because its still 2019? 

You do know its still 2019 yes?

And actually most companies don't publish "financials" since most companies are private. Try finding Zenimax's for example.

Arglebargle

Financials, hmn.  Here's a direct quote:

"Stuart Moulder, the Microsoft general manager who oversaw the software giant’s relationship with Digital Anvil, came to believe that Microsoft money intended for game development was instead used for the movie. “[Roberts’] energy and attention and some of the funds were siphoned off for that movie,” Moulder says. “The Digital Anvil investment has to be looked at as largely a failure.”"

Which was pretty much the hearsay I heard from ex-Origin folks.   

Just another reason I wouldn't trust CIG with money until they have a viable release on the table.  Without substantiated legal requirements, it's not always easy to tell what's going on with all those shell companies....

gervaise1

Wizardry said:

They made sure to mention these numbers are taken from some daily counter.These are not documents signed by an accountant.So in reality,the numbers could be anything.
If they wanted to be honest about this,they could have posted the accountant's documents.

So someone posts a 9 million last year on marketing...sigh

If that number was true that is a LOT of paid advertising,meaning likely ALL of the people we see like streamers and websites are paid to endorse this game and NOT giving us their honest opinions of the game.

There is yet another layer of scumability,if they have 54 million in the bank,they should not be asking for more because the purpose of asking for money was to MAKE THE GAME.He started with NOTHING,he asked for money to MAKE THE GAME and nothing else.
If the money is simply to build the coffers then it is closer to an exploit  than an actual crowd funded gaming operation.
You either have a definitive plan for developing the game or you DON'T,so how much money does he actually need,how much time does he need,WHAT is the PLAN,does he even have one?Well he is not saying because there is NO PLAN,just keep exploiting people for money because he knows there are easy targets out there.

 

What you talk about was - essentially - what they were doing: selling pledges and packages. Using the money coming in to fund development. And the initial funds  built up a decent cash balance. As they say in the report they were reluctant to spend money on marketing. They were doing what you suggested.

As discussed - many times - however the cash balance was declining; 90 days tops etc. Which the report clearly shows.

And employees might have started to get a little concerned. Without the equity investment the end-2018 balance would have been c. $7M - doesn't go far for over 500 staff. Employees would be forgiven if they started wondering about lay-off notices.  

With the cash injection they increased staff and expanded marketing. Now whether 2019's increased revenue is due to the extra marketing? If you are an employee though I suspect you will be happier.

As for what the $9M it was for costs - quote:

"associated with running game and development online services, customer support and marketing (including salaries) as well as the cost of the platform and publishing and data hosting and server costs. It also includes sales collection and customer liaison costs."

So 77 staff, as at the end of 2018, will account for a lot of that figure. Keeping the servers up and running another chunk. Running Citizencon - another chunk.

Bottomline: I don't think you need worry about them paying streamers - players seem to do that for free.

Kyleran

gervaise1 said:

botrytis said:

Most companies release last year's financials not the previous year. Kind of a red herring. 

I suppose if they published the financials for year ending 2019 you would say they had to be lying because its still 2019? 

You do know its still 2019 yes?

And actually most companies don't publish "financials" since most companies are private. Try finding Zenimax's for example.

Isn't the reason they publish financial info because they took public funds or tax breaks as part of the UK's software development program?

I'm sure they aren't doing so out of the goodness of their hearts, as you pointed out few private companies ever do.

TEKK3N

To be honest, I am still shocked at the 521 employees.
I understand the scope is big, but they employ more people for a single game than a AAA publisher who develop multiple games.

rpmcmurphy

Kyleran said:

Isn't the reason they publish financial info because they took public funds or tax breaks as part of the UK's software development program?

I'm sure they aren't doing so out of the goodness of their hearts, as you pointed out few private companies ever do.

I think the law in the UK is that they have to submit accounts regardless of whether they're receiving public funds or tax breaks. Not sure what the motive was for releasing a breakdown of all their studios. They did always say they would do it out of "transparency" but that never seemed to happen until they sold 10% of the company to an investor.

Kefo

rpmcmurphy said:

Kyleran said:

Isn't the reason they publish financial info because they took public funds or tax breaks as part of the UK's software development program?

I'm sure they aren't doing so out of the goodness of their hearts, as you pointed out few private companies ever do.

I think the law in the UK is that they have to submit accounts regardless of whether they're receiving public funds or tax breaks. Not sure what the motive was for releasing a breakdown of all their studios. They did always say they would do it out of "transparency" but that never seemed to happen until they sold 10% of the company to an investor.

It’s not very transparent when they can release any numbers they want and we have to take it on faith they aren’t fudging or out right lying about the numbers especially given the history of the company and it’s founder.

laserit

botrytis said:

Erillion said:

>>> (based on this money they got from a couple guys with too much money and not enough brains)<<<

These guys had enough brains to become billionaires.

How much did you make in your life so far? You clearly believe you have „more brains“ than them. 


Have fun

Not hard to make money if you had money in the first place. As I said a red herring.

Its a hell of a lot easier to lose it than it is to make it. 

rodarin

The guys they got the money from sold something that wasnt worth a lot for way more than it was. Sort of like what they 'invested' in.

End of the day the project isnt any closer to getting finished than it was last year at this time. sure they may have added some stuff (that has zero effect on an actual release worth 'game') to make some people think theyre doing positive things but the game isnt any closer to being released than it ever has been.

Until they set an actual release date. Or at minimum reach FULL persistence. there isnt anything here.

I know people will argue how much fun theyre having 'playing' but no one believes that crap. But I guess if only 20% of everything you do actually gets 'saved' then I guess it might be possible.

Also putting that many hours into something that is going to get wiped (I imagine some will claim there WONT be a wipe, until they need to argue the other side that is) is even more of a waste of time than playing games in in the first place.

Erillion

>>> End of the day the project isnt any closer to getting finished than it was last year at this time. >>>

As usual verifiably wrong statements coming from @rodarin ;  In other news: Water is wet.

Have fun

Aethaeryn

lol the 9 million in marketing last year would have paid for the game I wanted

Tom_Neverwinter

I really enjoy the lack of any research by most people in this thread....
like google....
most of this has been researched....

the public funding is tracked daily and sometimes by the minute.... google sheets....
 start there....
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMAP0fg-AKScI3S3VjrDW3OaLO4zgBA1RSYoQOQoNSI/edit#gid=1694467207
their funding is fine, not all of it is public and your not going to find it. even the court wont release it. 

the 90 days bs is just that. the 90 days argument is 5+ years old now.... https://twitter.com/dsmart?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
seriously.... how long can someone hate a game, and fund the fud group... http://dereksmart.com/forums/topic/star-citizen-musings/ [2016...]

they are banking with one of the best banks making interest, getting money from amd [remember the ships with the gfx cards], intel [the optane ssd's], nvidia... and more.... [amazon!] the ad revenue from the hate group on something aweful alone is probably a million dollars or more by now.... which is hilarious and ironic.... add this forum, facebook and then some... 

they dont need the multi million dollar from the investors only the backers... the interest they are accruing every year at 2% !!! the 50M = 1000000 in interest a year... 

they are only going up. 

Amathe

I guess I am way old fashioned, but it seems odd to me for a game to tout it's pre-release financial position.  I suppose the relevance is to boost public confidence, but I actually don't care at all. 

Erillion

Amathe said:

I guess I am way old fashioned, but it seems odd to me for a game to tout it's pre-release financial position.  I suppose the relevance is to boost public confidence, but I actually don't care at all. 

Actually some hard core critics demanded to see the financials. And EU regulations ask for it anyway, even if US regulations dont.

So CIG published the financials.

Now the critics are unhappy that the financials do NOT show an imminent desaster.  To the contrary, 2019 was hands down the most successful crowdfunding year ever for Star Citizen.

"90 days ... TOPS !"   indeed ;-)  It still makes me grin.

Have fun

Amathe

Erillion said:

Now the critics are unhappy that the financials do NOT show an imminent desaster.  

I'm not being critical. I'm being indifferent. But perhaps you meant someone else. 

Kefo

Erillion said:

Amathe said:

I guess I am way old fashioned, but it seems odd to me for a game to tout it's pre-release financial position.  I suppose the relevance is to boost public confidence, but I actually don't care at all. 

Actually some hard core critics demanded to see the financials. And EU regulations ask for it anyway, even if US regulations dont.

So CIG published the financials.

Now the critics are unhappy that the financials do NOT show an imminent desaster.  To the contrary, 2019 was hands down the most successful crowdfunding year ever for Star Citizen.

"90 days ... TOPS !"   indeed ;-)  It still makes me grin.

Have fun

Those aren’t financials though. Financials generally contain a balance sheet or something similar and are signed off. Those numbers can be fudged for all we know. The UK group when they file is what I would consider financials.