Shopping for an mmo, but not here.

delete5230

I've been playing a lot of offline games but my passion is still with mmorpg's.  Yesterday I was tinkering around with ESO videos and was getting hyped…. So many positive player reviews lately,  but most are WAY over the top with excitement they almost seem FAKE ! 

Found one thing in common with all of them "easy mode".  With fans saying this game can do no wrong they still mention "easy mode" several times in passing. Killing group dragons and world events easy, world fights easy, solo and group dungeons easy.  As they play I'm NOT watching that, I'm watching their health meters….. It's like they don't move at all !...... World events last 20 seconds !

Why care about armor and weapons?

Why care about abilities ?

Why care about crafting?

 

Why care about anything ?...... What's the attraction ?..... Maybe to have the potential or PvP only ? Everyone seems to agree, the game went through many overhauls and changes for the better, but seems worst in "easy" respect.

The icing on the cake,

5 abilities on your action bar, made for consoles…. I forgot about this…. No way !

The game can be purchased for $19.95 and you better sub pay or you will get abused with road blocks and short comings.  I have no problem with this, but you have to deal with massive amounts of others trying to NOT pay.

"Standard garbage" like all others !

 

The search continues.

Po_gg

delete5230 said:

Found one thing in common with all of them "easy mode".  With fans saying this game can do no wrong they still mention "easy mode" several times in passing. Killing group dragons and world events easy, world fights easy, solo and group dungeons easy.

You really kicked the hornet's nest with this one, delete... haven't you learned anything from all the threads about scaling?  

Cue in the generic fan with "scaling is the bestestest thing since sliced bread, One Tamriel ftw" in three, two, one...

Scot

Sorry to disappoint Po_gg but Scaling was an easy mode move, it allows Zenimax to set and overall difficulty for their game. And guess what, in shocking news it became relatively easier. I am not saying I see no benefit in being able to go where you want to, just that they did not have to make the game easier when they did so. The game has been getting easier from day one, I remember players in beta saying it was harder, then it got a easy mode make over after about three or four months after launch.

But this is the journey all MMORPG's have been on since they first came out, the calls from solo and then casual players for an ever easier game experience. And it does not stop here, it never does it only ever gets easier. Players in five years time will want even more of a quick fix and that goes for the whole of the gaming industry not just MMOs.

I should add that ESO is still a fine MMO, though that is partly due to lack of competition, just not may out there that has a look in at being in my top five.

Po_gg

Scot said:

Sorry to disappoint Po_gg [...]

None taken, maybe my sarcasm has lost its vitriol...  

((Since I don't want to derail delete's fine thread, just as a short footnote: I'm against scaling, the lukewarm mediocre common ground it usually produces, and while I never was an ESO fan at launch either (crappiest ES game imo), with One Tamriel it has lost the little remaining integrity it had the first place.

What I tried to point at was the cringy theme of every time in the past we had a topic about scaling (and/or difficulty) one of "those" were barging in with "scaling is the best, because in ESO..." ))

Now, with all that aside, I agree with your middle section about easification. Back then delete induced a few interesting conversations about easy-mode MMORPGs, originally about how LotRO became easier over the years.

His search will be a long one, nowadays challenge ain't a welcomed feature.

Wizardry

Po_gg said:

delete5230 said:

Found one thing in common with all of them "easy mode".  With fans saying this game can do no wrong they still mention "easy mode" several times in passing. Killing group dragons and world events easy, world fights easy, solo and group dungeons easy.

You really kicked the hornet's nest with this one, delete... haven't you learned anything from all the threads about scaling?  

Cue in the generic fan with "scaling is the bestestest thing since sliced bread, One Tamriel ftw" in three, two, one...

First time i seen scaling was EQ2,maybe it was the first time ever done.Luckily SOE learned right away how bad the idea was and never did it again that i know of.Also to prove the point,nobody was using that scaled zone either.Yet here we are fast forward and Blizzard jumped all over the scaling idea,not because they have a clue but because in THEIR minds ,it was an EASY fix to their game.IDK if Blizz copied ESO or other way around but dev teams need to wake up and pay attention to what is good design and what is not.

Personally scaling is like a 0/10 i have zero use for it.The way you do it properly if TRYING to create a way to have any player group together is by scaling the player,NOT the content.FFXI did it the absolute best by making sure players couldn't just scale down with elite gear and own the mobs.Sure scaled players will already be maxed on their skills at that level but that's ok,they earned it.

There are still to this day many problems with design and yes a lot has to do with EASY mode.Like tons of hand holding,automation,instant warping with no reasoning but just because it is faster etc etc.

Maurgrim

10 abilites not 5, you can swap weapon on the fly.

For me one staff are for destructions then when I need healing and buffs I switch to healing staff.

For me It's very dynamic, and ofc you have alot of other weapons you can slot and experiment with.

Findariel

Maurgrim said:

10 abilites not 5, you can swap weapon on the fly.

For me one staff are for destructions then when I need healing and buffs I switch to healing staff.

For me It's very dynamic, and ofc you have alot of other weapons you can slot and experiment with.

Hm yes 2 times 5 skills (+1 ultimate). WoW had 6 skill bars, must say I liked that better than the minimalistic ESO design. Even GW2 has 5 per weapon set +5 fixed. Fights in ESO are a bit monotonous if you only use 1 to 3 skills plus an occasional heal just because you can not equip more. And yes you can equip 2 weapons - but usually one ranged and one melee so you only use 1 (5 skills) in most fights.

Agree with OP the game is ridiculously easy, never encountered anything like this. What is the reason behind it and why can't it been fine tuned to provide at least a bit of a challenge? And why not for instance make slightly harder and easier zones instead of semi-God mode?

centkin

If you want MMOs to be any more complicated in the future, you have to push for consoles to have ubiquitous keyboard/mouse options, or some kind of controller specifically made for MMOs that has more options on consoles.  The standard controller is just a horrible interface option for MMOs, and it ruins the design of the games. 

It won't be fixed on the PC side because even on a game as successful as BDO they decided to go with the console interface on the PC, dropping the old much better PC interface because they didn't want to maintain two options.  In the future any game that even considers someday being on a console will use a console-friendly PC-unfriendly interface because that is the lowest common denominator. 

rojoArcueid

centkin said:

If you want MMOs to be any more complicated in the future, you have to push for consoles to have ubiquitous keyboard/mouse options, or some kind of controller specifically made for MMOs that has more options on consoles.  The standard controller is just a horrible interface option for MMOs, and it ruins the design of the games. 

It won't be fixed on the PC side because even on a game as successful as BDO they decided to go with the console interface on the PC, dropping the old much better PC interface because they didn't want to maintain two options.  In the future any game that even considers someday being on a console will use a console-friendly PC-unfriendly interface because that is the lowest common denominator. 

The case with BDO might just be lazy design. FFXIV has a very robust interface for controller and mouse and keyboard. And it's been talked a lot on this very forums that FF lets you map 80+ keys on the controller via modifiers. I would actually prefer having a PC interface on console mmos as well because i play all my PC mmos (action mmos, not tab target) with a controller with no issues.

I moved from BDO on PC (played it with a controller) to BDO on PS4 and i wish they had kept the PC UI on console. The current BDO UI on PS4 is half assed considering how much more complex and PC-like FFXIV is on console and it has zero issues to navigate with a controller.

Ungood

Scot said:

Sorry to disappoint Po_gg but Scaling was an easy mode move, it allows Zenimax to set and overall difficulty for their game. And guess what, in shocking news it became relatively easier. I am not saying I see no benefit in being able to go where you want to, just that they did not have to make the game easier when they did so. .

I can't speak for ESO, as I never made it that far into it regarding scaling. But in GW2, the scaling made the game harder overall. I can't LoL-waffle-stomp the lower level zones and dungeons, like I could in other games.

bcbully

I just saw an IG ESO ad saying “join 20 million players”. 

It’s ok delete no worries they will be fine.

Iselin

Findariel said:

And yes you can equip 2 weapons - but usually one ranged and one melee so you only use 1 (5 skills) in most fights.

There are no rules that say you have to use the ranged weapon from long range. Once upon a time that was the case with a couple of bow skills but it hasn't been that way for years.

What you're talking about is the cookie cutter PvE Stamina builds that typically use dual wielding + bow. If you watch players play those build who actually know what they're doing, they play at melee range 99% of the time only pulling back to long range for defensive reasons when a boss does some powerful AOE or cleave and then they're right back to melee range.

So yes, those builds do indeed use all 10 skills and both ultimates if they're any good.

Kyleran

Let's be honest,  it's been well over 15 yrs since MMOS were designed to have more time consuming content, especially during the leveling process.

It's debatable if older games really had more challenging combat,  though they did encourage players to tackle content more at the "edge" in order to maintain the greatest efficiency for their efforts.

See, the thing is for many players (me included if I am being honest) are more interested in progressing steadily over any sort of gameplay challenge.

Sure,  in EVE I could live in class 5 or 6 wormholes, fighting sleeper fleets which could decimate our side if things went south,  but make really big ISK. 

But instead I lived in a class 4 static which let us choose to fight only when the conditions best favored our armor tanked cheap fit fleet where we almost had no chance of dying unless a hostile gank fleet surprised us.

Instead of having to round up 40 or so players with a Dread or two, we could fight nightly with as few as 4 players, while I would also salvage on an alt account.

Made a lot of good ISK with little stress, and not much risk.

C'mon,  people like to win, and if game devs make the content too difficult too soon, many would quickly walk away so here we are today.

Probably shifted over way to far, hopefully we can see a future game which nudges back a bit the other way.

Utinni

Wizardry said:

Po_gg said:

delete5230 said:

Found one thing in common with all of them "easy mode".  With fans saying this game can do no wrong they still mention "easy mode" several times in passing. Killing group dragons and world events easy, world fights easy, solo and group dungeons easy.

You really kicked the hornet's nest with this one, delete... haven't you learned anything from all the threads about scaling?  

Cue in the generic fan with "scaling is the bestestest thing since sliced bread, One Tamriel ftw" in three, two, one...

.FFXI 

There it is!

Iselin

Kyleran said:

Let's be honest,  it's been well over 15 yrs since MMOS were designed to have more time consuming content, especially during the leveling process.

It's debatable if older games really had more challenging combat,  though they did encourage players to tackle content more at the "edge" in order to maintain the greatest efficiency for their efforts.

See, the thing is for many players (me included if I am being honest) are more interested in progressing steadily over any sort of gameplay challenge.

Sure,  in EVE I could live in class 5 or 6 wormholes, fighting sleeper fleets which could decimate our side if things went south,  but make really big ISK. 

But instead I lived in a class 4 static which let us choose to fight only when the conditions best favored our armor tanked cheap fit fleet where we almost had no chance of dying unless a hostile gank fleet surprised us.

Instead of having to round up 40 or so players with a Dread or two, we could fight nightly with as few as 4 players, while I would also salvage on an alt account.

Made a lot of good ISK with little stress, and not much risk.

C'mon,  people like to win, and if game devs make the content too difficult too soon, many would quickly walk away so here we are today.

Probably shifted over way to far, hopefully we can see a future game which nudges back a bit the other way.

It's never more obvious than in games where you have granular direct control of the difficulty like in D3 with 20 difficulty levels + the GR built in difficulties that take it way beyond 20.

Most players there aim for 2-3 minute rift runs in order to maximize their drops/hour grind. So they'll tweak the Torment level or which greater rift they will run around that. To do those in 2-3 minutes you're absolutely destroying everything in one or two shots. This is the players choosing their ideal difficulty not the devs.

I think at least 90% of these "game's too easy" posts are just round about ways of flexing - just another way for people to say they're too sexy for their shirt.