Progession..

Lord.Bachus

Progression is the core of an MMORPG game..
its everywhere

- world progression
- story progression
- quest progression
- dungeon progression
- crafting progression
- gear progression

but there is one kind of progression that i think very important..
thats : Character progression ...

so how much character progression should there be at max level?

for me it needs to be right on track..
ESO for example doesn’t give me a fullfilling feeling at max level..
probably because the progression doesn’t require much planning

and WoW, which now has progression systems like essences and Azerite points,
has a little to much time involved, as these also have to be done on your alts

Strangely GW2 feels best for me..
but i am an altoholic.. love how all your alts can help out here..



so how much progression do you enjoy and require to have that feel you are moving forward, witouth it feeling like a strap around your neck?

Amathe

I very much need and appreciate progression. It gives me a sense of purpose, that my efforts are leading to the fulfillment of goals. I also expect a big boost to my character;s power and abilities at max level. 

Albatroes

Unfortunately, a lot of people define 'character' progression differently. Some people chase achievements and call that character progression, while others chase vanity.

I've always viewed character progression as the evolution of whatever I'm playing. A prime example that I like to use in my mind is a master wizard verses a novice. Each can probably utilize a starter spell like fireball, but the master can probably do other things with it that the novice cannot, like make 2 fireballs shoot out or make them explode on impact etc. In games, effects like these usually relate to passive effects that you can character can learn even post cap. FFXI was probably the better of games that I experienced that did something like that through its merit system (points you could get after 75 which used to be the cap for almost a decade). Through the merit system, you could pick certain alterations or even learn new things, but there was a cap on how much you could in certain categories.

Without delving too much into a system like that, a lot of games just give everyone everything as soon as they level up without requiring investment. OP, you mentioned essences in wow and such, which on paper sounded good, but the execution was poor simply because alts are content in a game like wow (unfortunately Ion doesn't seem to understand something so basic). MoP was probably the realist expansion that understood this because for a lot of things, if you did it on one character, it would be accelerated on other characters you played (reputation/valor points). Also, the base class design was already fleshed out enough that classes could play well enough without having to cap their valor points every week etc. The unfortunate thing of essences is that the classes were gutted before the expansion, all the way back in legion, with the artifact system holding the classes together. Once that was gone, they didnt' properly 'fix' what they broke.

cameltosis

Lord.Bachus said:

Progression is the core of an MMORPG game..

I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.

There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:

Being massively multiplayer

Being a roleplaying game.

Progression is not required for either of those things to be true. Worse, the erroneous focus on progression has led to too many games being solely about progression and nothing else. Just look at the looter-shooter genre: those games are nothing but progression, but the progression serves no purpose at all. You progress so that you can progress. When you finish the progression, you suddenly realise there was no point at quit.

Progression is a means to an end, not an end itself.

So, whenever I am looking at progression mechanics, I always ask myself: what will I be able to do that I couldn't do before? How will the gameplay change as I progress?

In almost all cases, progression shows itself to be nothing more than an elaborate gating mechanism. You progress through a story in order to unlock more story. You unlock new gear so that you can survive a boss. You level up so that your chance-to-hit increases and you can enter the next zone. It's all just total bullshit, a shallow veneer of mechanics designed to make us think we're doing well.

Real progress has more meaning and purpose. Unlocking new skills, for example, has a real effect on your character (if done well) and can open up new ways of playing your character. It might allow you to take on harder things, or complete content quicker, or alter the gameplay to make it feel totally different. Same sort of thing with story progression. Most of it is just gating, read page 1 so you can "progress" to page 2. Real story progression would change the way the game feels and plays, for example, if you are given the choice to kill someone and it actually removes them from teh game, changing the way the story would progress. (i know, impossible in an mmo)

With that in mind, I can't really answer your question about how much progression I need at endgame. As progression is a means to an end, it entirely depends on what the end is and what types of progression you have. I'm a fan of horizontal progression (for characters) so I'd rather just reach endgame and have all content unlocked immediately, rather than gated behind progression. That way, I have a wider variety of content to choose from and my ability to complete it or not will be based on my "player" progression (am I a good player?).

But, in my ideal game, there would still be plenty of meta-progression available. My character and the story might have finished progressing, but I can continue to work on my guild. If there are businesses and crafting, I can "progress" with that, earning money, opening new shops etc. If there is a worthwhile community, I can "progress" within that too, making friends, organising events and the like. If there is PvP, I can "progress" through that, by learning how to play better, but understanding my enemies and trying to make a name for myself. This type of progression has real meaning to me as a player, as well as increased meaning to those I am playing with. It just can't be quantified and turned into a gameplay mechanic.

Finally, from a purely personal point of view, I get the most pleasure in MMOs out of mastery. By this, I mean learning to play my class to the absolute limit of what it is capable of and then putting those skills to use.

It is only possible to achieve mastery once I've jumped through all the hoops and finished off the progression paths in the game. Before that point, you don't have all your skills, your gear is constantly changing, you're still unlocking traits and builds etc, so it's impossible to master something that isn't finished yet. But, once you've reached the top of the power curve and got your skills, then and only then can true mastery begin.

I know there won't be many people who share my view, and thats fine.

Amathe

cameltosis said:

I know there won't be many people who share my view, and thats fine.

It's not important who ultimately agrees with you. It's just nice to have a well reasoned point of view to think about. Nice post, as usual. 

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

Lord.Bachus said:

Progression is the core of an MMORPG game..

I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.

There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:

Being massively multiplayer

Being a roleplaying game.

Progression is not required for either of those things to be true. 

Is there a role playing game that doesn't have progression? Because I can't think of a one (maybe there is? If it's just a few wouldn't they be outliers?)

If all or most role playing games have progression then wouldn't that mean progression is a part of the genre?

Cryomatrix

There needs to be progression, but the best progression is created by humans. 

Work your way up to be the best weapon maker, then you have progressed to where other players look at you that way. 

Work your way up to be a great ship maker or a capital ship maker, then people will come to you for contracts. 

Everyone plays the hero is old and boring, people need roles that are realized by other players. Games just don't allow for that. 

In EVE, in my 0.0 space, people emailed me all the time for ships and i delivered at good prices, in SWG, i was a gun maker and got random requests all the time. 

Problem is you need a decent population for that. 

The type of progression above is the most important for me. 

Iselin

Lord.Bachus said:

for me it needs to be right on track..
ESO for example doesn’t give me a fullfilling feeling at max level..
probably because the progression doesn’t require much planning

The Champion point system which is ESO's end game progression, is an almost direct copy/paste job from the D3 Paragon point system.

But unlike D3 where those paragon points matter and are needed to do progressively more difficult content (Greater Rifts with 150 difficulties) ESO's content is static and capped with mobs all being equivalent to players having 160 champion points.

Therein lies the problem and why the new guys managing that system (the ones who designed it, Paul Sage and Nick Konkle are both now gone) continually nerf and nerf for balance in order to try to keep the static content somewhat relevant with the ever-increasing Champion points.

That's why end-game progression there is so underwhelming: they're constantly nerfing away any impact the CP system could have so it feels like you're just treading water.

Vermillion_Raventhal

MMORPG have to evolve beyond vertical grinds and forced grouping events for me to really get back in.  I have zero interest in rehashing the same thing over and over.

Shaigh

When it comes to PvE I'm mostly interested in content progression, I want to play new stuff and defeat it to move on to play new stuff. I also wish to gain new abilities which creates new ways to find and defeat stuff.

Its why I really like metroidvania style games, you explore areas and defeat bosses to gain new abilities to explore new areas and also get a few more tools to defeat bosses.

AAAMEOW

I hope I can just jump in and play with other people.  

But with the way mmorpg is designed now I need to do 50-100 hours single player campaign, and a couple hundred more hours before I can even pvp and still get wooped by people with better gear than me.

That is all fine when I'm a no life and can play mmorpg all day.  But I don't want to do that any more so I give up on mmorpg.

DunmerSwit

I think the notion of a max level is inherently bad in and of itself. Caps should be removed, and the grind should merely become absurd to progress at this higher end of the range. Didn't Lineage 2 have something like this? Can't remember.

Personally, I've never cared for end game that much, I much prefer the character progression on the way to max level. Also, raiding is boring. Legendary, epic equipment should be so rare that only a few players, better still even one wielder exists on a server. They shouldn't be acquired by the mass of the player-base repeating a dungeon over and over. And I don't even necessarily know that this should be rewarded through a raid format. I'd much prefer to see such items discovered through exploration by one brave/luck player/group or even crafted by some legendary crafter in collaboration with adventurers and traders. Essentially, something like the daedric artifacts you can acquire in Morrowind, but with only one copy per server. Solving ancient riddles or myths to locate a mythical item could keep player bases occupied for months (something like Ready Player One I guess) or as a result of story campaigns like Asheron's Call had. Perhaps it resets somewhere, when the wielder is no longer worthy or is killed. Crafting or long, extended quest chains, should meet the character progression (gear) needs of the average player.

Iselin

Rhoklaw said:

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

Lord.Bachus said:

Progression is the core of an MMORPG game..

I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.

There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:

Being massively multiplayer

Being a roleplaying game.

Progression is not required for either of those things to be true. 

Is there a role playing game that doesn't have progression? Because I can't think of a one (maybe there is? If it's just a few wouldn't they be outliers?)

If all or most role playing games have progression then wouldn't that mean progression is a part of the genre?

Probably not, since character progression has been around since RPG was a wet dream. Hell, even in tabletop D&D, characters have gear and level progression. So not sure what he is getting at.

That mythical unicorn RPG that has no progression. I accept the idea as a thought exercize but some seem to think it's real

Utinni

I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.

cameltosis

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

Lord.Bachus said:

Progression is the core of an MMORPG game..

I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.

There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:

Being massively multiplayer

Being a roleplaying game.

Progression is not required for either of those things to be true. 

Is there a role playing game that doesn't have progression? Because I can't think of a one (maybe there is? If it's just a few wouldn't they be outliers?)

If all or most role playing games have progression then wouldn't that mean progression is a part of the genre?

I don't know if there is or not.

I totally agree that progression is a part of the genre, an important part too. I even said it is an expected part. But, if you removed the progression, it would still be a roleplaying game. If you removed the roleplaying, it would no longer be a roleplaying game. Sounds really dumb when I type that out, but I've met too many people who think that progression is roleplaying. It's not, they're different things (though progression can sometimes support roleplaying)

We've started arguing semantics (core vs part) so it's not really important. My intention was to highlight that, in my opinion, focusing on progression, thinking of it as a primary goal in the game design is a mistake. Progression should be much more meaningful, a means to an end, and not just a gating mechanic.

rojoArcueid

I like a good balance of all the types of progression mentioned in the OP. When the game gets to a point where it becomes solely or mostly gear based i feel like I have nothing else to do in the game because I've never really cared much about getting the best gear (best in slot).

If i have the best gear in the game then i effectively became the king or something and have no more progression to do since everyone is below me in power. Better wait for an expansion or sequel now...

AlBQuirky

Basically, at max level, my progression consists of creating a new avatar. I've reached max level in just 3 MMORPGs: World of Warcraft, Wizard101, and City of Heroes. I had avatars in each that I then focused on "progressing" and left my "maxes" in idle. I would pull them out on occasion and play with my friends that also had max characters, but mainly I focused on my other avatars.

I was wondering about EQ's AA system, but never experienced that, myself. I'd heard good things about it and was glad to see that someone else mentioned it.

cameltosis said:

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

Lord.Bachus said:

Progression is the core of an MMORPG game..

I disagree with your opening statement and I believe that the view you have shared is one of the fundamental problems with the genre. Progression is not the core of the genre, it is simply an expected part.

There are two core parts to the genre, and they're right there in the name:

Being massively multiplayer

Being a roleplaying game.

Progression is not required for either of those things to be true. 

Is there a role playing game that doesn't have progression? Because I can't think of a one (maybe there is? If it's just a few wouldn't they be outliers?)

If all or most role playing games have progression then wouldn't that mean progression is a part of the genre?

I don't know if there is or not.

I totally agree that progression is a part of the genre, an important part too. I even said it is an expected part. But, if you removed the progression, it would still be a roleplaying game. If you removed the roleplaying, it would no longer be a roleplaying game. Sounds really dumb when I type that out, but I've met too many people who think that progression is roleplaying. It's not, they're different things (though progression can sometimes support roleplaying)

We've started arguing semantics (core vs part) so it's not really important. My intention was to highlight that, in my opinion, focusing on progression, thinking of it as a primary goal in the game design is a mistake. Progression should be much more meaningful, a means to an end, and not just a gating mechanic.

I guess it goes back to how one defines "roleplaying" in a gaming sense, I guess?

ultimateduck

Individual progression is the center of all RPG type games, even MMOs. It is, by far, the most important part of any RPG, MMO or otherwise. Nobody plays a game to be the same throughout the whole game. Nobody wants the same character on day 300 as they had on day 1. What good is a great story line and all the content in the world if you are the same character from start to finish?

Character progression is everything, period. It's why we play games and not just read books.

Character progression can mean a lot of things including access to better and more powerful abilities and access to better gear. I think this is the second biggest thing that separates older games with newer ones, the first being community.

I thought DAoC has incredible character progression. From skill trees to advanced skill trees to a deep gearing system, it's a hard game to compete with. I never played AO but I am told it also has a great character progression system throughout. These games gave you real choices on how you could progress.

Although the OP clearly disagrees, GW2 character progression is atrocious and the main reason I stopped playing. I also found SWTOR to have a very bland character progression system. Progression was superficial and uneventful. GW2 you got staff skills skills by using a staff for an hour. Gearing lacked depth. SWTOR had character progression about as flexible as the quest system, which was on rails.

The only modern game that seems to have a decent character progression system is ArcheAge.

Amathe

AlBQuirky said:

I guess it goes back to how one defines "roleplaying" in a gaming sense, I guess?

Long ago, when I was a PnP Dungeons and Dragon player, "roleplaying" meant that I would pretend to be a dwarf or an elf or whatever. I wasn't just moving a placeholder around like a shoe or a thimble in Monopoly. I was creating a character with distinctive traits and abilities and then acting out that character. 

Stats and items were also part of the game. It wasn't an either or proposition. Both were part of it.
That's what roleplaying meant to me then, and that's what it means to me now.

But over the years, online games have more and more reduced one's "character" to a mere coat rack for items. Really, you may as well play a shoe or a thimble if you're going to do that.

Po_gg

AlBQuirky said:

I guess it goes back to how one defines "roleplaying" in a gaming sense, I guess?

More on how exactly you define progression, since it's always there. Even if you just sit still on your chair for an hour, there's progression (heartbeats, blinks, etc., or even unmeasureable things, for example you were thinking on a problem and found a solution).

Btw. as an altoholic I strongly agree on making new alts is a kinda progression too.

I really enjoyed cameltosis' posts, it always makes me wonder how much I used to agree with his points while we approach games from the opposite directions (he's gameplay and pvp, me story and social elements).

And I agree on progression is an important but not mandatory element of roleplaying. You can have multiple sessions without any character progression, and within a session you can even put story progression on hold, while you still have roleplaying - like when you GM a simple in-character night for a party to get together and "into the shakes". Roleplaying? Definitely. Progression? Not so much, just the characters sitting around the campfire and eat/drink while having a conversation.

(Sure, technically still a progression, they will be rested at the next session, a day passes within the story, etc.)

As for Sovrath's question, hard nut to crack. The only one comes to mind is a fun rpg around the cartoon Astérix, where players are different members of the village. It still has a very mild character progression, but mostly just funtime roleplaying and slapping romans with fish  

ed: I was talking about tabletop roleplaying, of course. On digital format there's always some kinda progression, story progression at least.

Akulas

If you done everything as long as there is a number that can be increased somewhere then that is character progression.

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

I don't know if there is or not.

I totally agree that progression is a part of the genre, an important part too. I even said it is an expected part. But, if you removed the progression, it would still be a roleplaying game. If you removed the roleplaying, it would no longer be a roleplaying game. Sounds really dumb when I type that out, but I've met too many people who think that progression is roleplaying. It's not, they're different things (though progression can sometimes support roleplaying)

We've started arguing semantics (core vs part) so it's not really important. My intention was to highlight that, in my opinion, focusing on progression, thinking of it as a primary goal in the game design is a mistake. Progression should be much more meaningful, a means to an end, and not just a gating mechanic.

Would it? There are people who insist that a role playing game is just about progression and they don't pay mind the the role playing in a "I'm going to act like x, y and z."

I mean, I don't "role play" in any mmorpg and I can still play it.

One can remove the wheels of a car and it would still be a car. Just one with no wheels. I think the same with an rpg.

I'll add I think this forum has had numerous discussion on what a rpg would be so most likely it's different for everyone. Like "mmorpg."

Xatsh

FFXI's merit system was the best system I seen.

I am not a fan of ever increasing lvl cap, I honestly think it is a horrible thing in the genre. It is one of the things that forms the "Hamster Wheel" of content which is a game killer for me and alot of people to be honest. The FFXI system allowed for a cap but continued refinements to the class optimizing it for certain aspects that the player wanted. Was honestly almost all positives and no negatives. Still got new content, characters were always progressing even at cap, got new armor and weapons, and nothing content wise was ever being negated in the game.

As for current mmos with a solid advancement system at cap I will echo that Archeage probably has the best character progression system of any modern mmo. It is just the mountain of LOL decisions the dev team made since version 2.0 sorta killed the great game that Archeage was so most will not experience it. But the post-cap progression system itself is extremely solid. Get very minor stat boost per ancestral level and at certain tiers you can augment abilities if you choose. Change single target to AOE but for less dmg. Change ability from aoe around yourself to AOE at target but with drawbacks. Reduce the cast time but have dmg penalties in pvp. And so on.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Utinni said:

I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.

I view leveling as a crutch this industry has relied on far too much.  Instead of expanding on what things we can do on online worlds.  We are feed progression treadmills to be on like good little hamsters. 

Does it really matter if you get stats from gear or AA or whatever post level grind for power there is? I'll pass.  

Utinni

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Utinni said:

I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.

I view leveling as a crutch this industry has relied on far too much.  Instead of expanding on what things we can do on online worlds.  We are feed progression treadmills to be on like good little hamsters. 

Does it really matter if you get stats from gear or AA or whatever post level grind for power there is? I'll pass.  

Personally I enjoy RPGs along with the mechanics and rules they typically have. If you want an MMORPG without leveling or grinding that's great! Can you list some?

Vermillion_Raventhal

Utinni said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Utinni said:

I still think things as basic as AAs from EQ are my favorite post-level progression. Paragon points etc don't really come close. The closest thing was omegas in marvel heroes, which Brevik said was inspired/modeled by EQ's AA system.

I view leveling as a crutch this industry has relied on far too much.  Instead of expanding on what things we can do on online worlds.  We are feed progression treadmills to be on like good little hamsters. 

Does it really matter if you get stats from gear or AA or whatever post level grind for power there is? I'll pass.  

Personally I enjoy RPGs along with the mechanics and rules they typically have. If you want an MMORPG without leveling or grinding that's great! Can you list some?

There are none with no progression.  I don't mind some progression.  But if all there is adding and multiplying numbers on your character it's a waste IMO.