DDO, used a hybrid System. You could tab target, but you also needed to aim and face your target, and the target could move out of the way, as you shot at them.
To get that. Lets say you Tab Target the Beholder, and then cast a Death Ray at the Beholder, the Beholder could step to the side(not dodge roll) and the Ray would not follow them, it would continue straight to where the Beholder Originally was (God help whatever poor bastard was standing behind the beholder), even with a Tab target Lock in place. Same held true for basic projectiles, like Arrows, Throwing Knives, etc.
Equally so in DDO, if you were at melee, you were going to hit what you were facing, if what you Tab Targeted was behind you, you were not going to turn to face them, you were going to slap the crap out what was standing in front of you, no matter what you had targeted.
That was a really cool system, that I wish more games adopted.
Crowfall uses a kind of Aim Assist System where as long as I am kinda close with the target pointer, I am going to hit you or at least at you, you can still move and dodge, and to be honest, when it comes to action combat games, this is the best way to deal with that, as the BS system they have in games like Eternal Crusade or TERA where if I am off by a pixel I miss.. is total fucking bullshit.
GW2, also has a hybrid system, but it works like I can just blindly attack and hit whatever is in front of me, or if I tab target, I lock on to the target and am able to shoot them down with no effort on my part, so I view it as a crudely inferior system to what DDO already did.
I’ll have to fire it up again and take a look. It’s been so long I don’t remember. I think a combination system might do ok. I imagine being able to switch between something like this for a little more relaxed pve session and switching to full aim for pvp so you can lead targets.
DDO, used a hybrid System. You could tab target, but you also needed to aim and face your target, and the target could move out of the way, as you shot at them.
To get that. Lets say you Tab Target the Beholder, and then cast a Death Ray at the Beholder, the Beholder could step to the side(not dodge roll) and the Ray would not follow them, it would continue straight to where the Beholder Originally was (God help whatever poor bastard was standing behind the beholder), even with a Tab target Lock in place. Same held true for basic projectiles, like Arrows, Throwing Knives, etc.
Equally so in DDO, if you were at melee, you were going to hit what you were facing, if what you Tab Targeted was behind you, you were not going to turn to face them, you were going to slap the crap out what was standing in front of you, no matter what you had targeted.
That was a really cool system, that I wish more games adopted.
Crowfall uses a kind of Aim Assist System where as long as I am kinda close with the target pointer, I am going to hit you or at least at you, you can still move and dodge, and to be honest, when it comes to action combat games, this is the best way to deal with that, as the BS system they have in games like Eternal Crusade or TERA where if I am off by a pixel I miss.. is total fucking bullshit.
GW2, also has a hybrid system, but it works like I can just blindly attack and hit whatever is in front of me, or if I tab target, I lock on to the target and am able to shoot them down with no effort on my part, so I view it as a crudely inferior system to what DDO already did.
I’ll have to fire it up again and take a look. It’s been so long I don’t remember. I think a combination system might do ok. I imagine being able to switch between something like this for a little more relaxed pve session and switching to full aim for pvp so you can lead targets.
Take some time and pay attention to when mobs shoot you, like Hobgoblin Archers in Shan-to-Kor, for example, you can just side step the arrows.
Beholder Eye ray spells according to D&D don't miss, so they do not miss in DDO, nor do spells like Finger of Death, but if you shoot a Cone of Cold, you will see that it shoots at the first target location, which makes hitting mobs that are running at your friends with ray and cone spells, a little harder then most games with tab targeting that lock on to the target.
But tab targeting, also allows you to pick out a target, like for example, if 4 mobs are clustered together, you and tab target to pick out one, and keep shooing AT that one target, no matter who gets in front of them.
This is super handy for skills like Improved Precise shot, that allow you to shoot through mobs and hit them all, so you tab target one, herd them into a nice row and then shoot them all down.
It's also handy for Melee, where if you have a cluster of mobs on you, you can pick out one to keep focusing on, as opposed to just swinging into whatever is closest and under your pointer, which can change a lot in the middle of a fight.
But yah.. Unless SSG went and screwed it up, that was how it worked when last I played.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I totally loved GW1s combat and still miss it in every game I play.
My biggest disappointment is still ESO. I really love this game and the idea behind its system is really cool, but the implementation aka skill weaving is so awful.
Your not alone on this, I love the world and questing was fun but after that Having to spam skill buttons weave attacks, block and weapon swap constantly whilst WASD'in all the time it felt more like a chore than a game to relax on after work. It led to me just end up playing ESO as a solo experience and for what that was worth I enjoyed it at a slow pace but resorting to playing a MMO as solo and missing all the endgame content isn't what they are about.
In return it led me back to FFXIV where I can play as a healer watch the combat unfold and react accordingly it the most chill playstyle around and I love it because of that.
Now if only they launch a ESO a server with tab targeting and the left click/right click weaving was removed I'd be there instantly, One can dream.
I've never liked tab targeting. I remember playing an old single player game called "Summoner" and remember hating it and wishing that someone would make it so that I didn't have to cycle through enemies.
I'll put up with it if I have to but prefer action games.
It's weird, despite playing many "tab target" games, I can't recall ever using the Tab key to target, or to cycle through enemies, too inefficient or inaccurate.
I usually just "mouse clicked" directly on the specific target I wanted to attack, then clicked on the next target when the time came.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've never liked tab targeting. I remember playing an old single player game called "Summoner" and remember hating it and wishing that someone would make it so that I didn't have to cycle through enemies.
I'll put up with it if I have to but prefer action games.
It's weird, despite playing many "tab target" games, I can't recall ever using the Tab key to target, or to cycle through enemies, too inefficient or inaccurate.
I usually just "mouse clicked" directly on the specific target I wanted to attack, then clicked on the next target when the time came.
I usually had a "target nearest enemy" key next to my movement keys as an "oh shit" key and an assist key (if one was available), but 90% of my targeting was a mouse click.
I've never liked tab targeting. I remember playing an old single player game called "Summoner" and remember hating it and wishing that someone would make it so that I didn't have to cycle through enemies.
I'll put up with it if I have to but prefer action games.
It's weird, despite playing many "tab target" games, I can't recall ever using the Tab key to target, or to cycle through enemies, too inefficient or inaccurate.
I usually just "mouse clicked" directly on the specific target I wanted to attack, then clicked on the next target when the time came.
I usually had a "target nearest enemy" key next to my movement keys as an "oh shit" key and an assist key (if one was available), but 90% of my targeting was a mouse click.
Target nearest and assist were my primary keys. Otherwise I just clicked on them.
Tab targeting for PvE class focus games with tactical raid mechanic encounters. Vanguard with its engaged mob list, specialised class skills and interdependcy would be hard to tune for aim based targeting within enrage timers etc
Action/ aim targeting I think is best left for PvP centric games that aren't class interdependent but can be team/ realm based. ESO Cyrodil or Warhammer online suit this style ok. BDO is fun to play solo PvE, but to me just doesn't work as a traditional raiding MMO.
I think in general each style has its merits, but any game needs to be designed around one or the other. Tab gives you slower cast strategic gameplay while Action is more of a fast paced FFA combat.
There are much more variables in a fight than just precise cast or placement of AoE. You camprate TabTarget with ESO which is hybrod style of combat - not really action combat.
What I can see as action combat is BDO atm or TERA as a bit older representation of games.
It is not about feeling to be frustrated or feeling to have wasted skills. What is that? It is a really stupid description for me. It says to me that someone who wrote that never played an action-combat game really.
I feel the biggest issue is the TAB TARGET repetitiveness in the combat. Like ESO has too. Once you get into the game on a high level, you spam 5 keys on the keyboards and that's all, spam the same buttons in the round. On the other hand, action combat goes more into FPS style, you have to be more precise with better reflex.
I like Tab-Targetting. If done right, it's more strategic and allows you to succeed in encounters by using your brain to find the most optimal abilities or rotation of abilities to overcome an enemy. When done wrong, which is the case when MMO's speed up the GCD and add in too many mechanics, you're left staring at your hotbars, buffs/debuffs, and the mechanics. I don't like this because you end up ignoring the beauty of the world around you and the effort put into the design of the dungeons just to keep up an optimal rotation and avoid getting killed by the mechanics, all while the tank and rest of the group is blazing through the dungeon at blinding speed to complete it ASAP.
I also like action combat, but I haven't seen it done right in a MMORPG. I've never liked BDO, because you have to learn and memorize combos. I don't enjoy that because I don't have the best of memories, and combining memorizing combos, executing them, avoiding mechanics, and trying to enjoy the scenery around you is too much for me. I don't like ESO's combat, because it combines skill usage with action combat. My fingers can't make that work effectively.
I'd rather have a combat system like Dark Souls in a MMORPG, where there isn't skill usage, but more learning an enemies patterns and using your attacks, well timed blocks/dodges, and the right weapon to overcome your adversary. I love how the souls games incorporates character building, pattern learning, action combat, gear acquisition/upgrading, and dungeon delving and exploration to form a complete experience of exploration and a sense of danger.
I'm open to other ideas too. I like how the Destiny series incorporated FPS combat and abilities. I like how ARPGs incorporate hack n slash with abilities. I just don't like the half ass combat systems like WoW and ESO, where you're too busy trying to manipulate your hands to execute your abilities and dodge the bad at the expense of actually enjoying the world and dungeons the dev team created for you.
I have always felt that tab-target was low skill, not only because far less battlefield awareness is required but more because hits are automatic, there are no misses and that takes so much out of the fight. The skill to land the hit, maintain facing on a target and keep yourself moving such that enemy attacks miss you takes twice the skill or more plus it is simply less realistic and immersive. I cannot go back to tab-target, it is lazy.
Crowfall is getting it right for me. Approaching Beta testing we have adjusted and are still testing hit box sizes, dodge move distances and cooldowns, ttk, and AoE anti-ball up zerg mechanics. It is a little slower paced than Asian BG mechanics for a Western MMO feel.
As you may know, there are multiple skillsets to learn and master. Good action combat system requires more dexterity with your hands, and more hand and eye coordination. This becomes harder as you get older. Tab-targetting uses a skillset that is more cerebral if done right. It's more about strategy. Using your abilities strategically to overcome enemies. The issue with MMORPG's and tab targetting is that the developers don't make ordinary 1 on 1 encounters hard enough to warrant bigger brain play like the single player game counter parts. So in normal open world 1 on 1 encounters with mobs feels like your eyes are glazing over as you execute the same 3 button rotation to mow down an enemy for the 1000th time.
I know it's still cycling and targeting but.......
For now my preference is right mouse clicking on tab target because it's just too easy missing the tab key when in heavy moments. (Game Allowance Based)
Also it seems asinine to stretch my finger in those moments.
In the way distant future when I'm dust & bones I finally hope someone is able to control games like Iron Man/Spider Man did in marvel movies while they researched.
I prefer a hybrid for MMORPG's. An example would be GW2 combat (it is a start, but could be better). There is still tab targeting, but also a lot of free target skills. Locking a target is still useful group play and for support.
Also important to me is mobility. I hate having to stand still every time I use an ability. Dodging and kiting should be a meaningful factor too.
Then I prefer skills and not fixed classes. A hybrid like in Anarchy Online works for me too). I would like to see that the behaviour of combat abilities depend on chosen character skills. And also determine which combat abilities you get. And there should be a large pool of abilities to chose from, but you can only have 10-15 active at one time. There needs to be reason to change combat setups for certain situations (like in GW1). And this should be possible anytime outside combat.
No global cooldown for abilities(I hate this with a passion) and enough decent interrupts.
I feel that action combat is now better for combat with few enemies/allies , and tab-combat is better for organized play because is less chaotic.
I've just can't farm solo in tab-based combat because is really boring, but dungeons are better than in action combat.
Probably the most fun I've had in 5 man group content was in Tera several years ago doing the Shadra Manaya dungeons. So incredibly difficult.
I still get a kick out of all of the Tab Target people fabricating a narrative of Tab Target being "tactical" and Action being "chaos".
Or using age as an excuse.
"Oh, I'm too old for that Action nonsense, dag gummit"
A lot of the top fighting games players in the world are their late 30s or early 40s. Daigo Umehara has been professionally competing longer than SonicFox had been alive.
Perhaps you can't do well Action MMOs because you let yourself atrophy from playing all those Tab Target MMOs.
For me, definitely tab targeting all the way, or lock-on (via mouse click or tab). All these action-type games make the "fun" in the games more akin to a First-person shooter. I would love to play ESO, but it's targeting is an annoying mechanic. I want to think "should I target the add", or "should I cast this spell", not "is my mouse sufficiently over/close to the mob so my spell will hit or miss", or "did I turn too much and lose focus". Too much "deer hunter", and not enough MMO/RPG for me :-)
Plus the "action"/"twitch" are usually more painful click-fests; I mean that in a literal sense, like go-see-the-doctor hand pain.
Comments
Beholder Eye ray spells according to D&D don't miss, so they do not miss in DDO, nor do spells like Finger of Death, but if you shoot a Cone of Cold, you will see that it shoots at the first target location, which makes hitting mobs that are running at your friends with ray and cone spells, a little harder then most games with tab targeting that lock on to the target.
But tab targeting, also allows you to pick out a target, like for example, if 4 mobs are clustered together, you and tab target to pick out one, and keep shooing AT that one target, no matter who gets in front of them.
This is super handy for skills like Improved Precise shot, that allow you to shoot through mobs and hit them all, so you tab target one, herd them into a nice row and then shoot them all down.
It's also handy for Melee, where if you have a cluster of mobs on you, you can pick out one to keep focusing on, as opposed to just swinging into whatever is closest and under your pointer, which can change a lot in the middle of a fight.
But yah.. Unless SSG went and screwed it up, that was how it worked when last I played.
In return it led me back to FFXIV where I can play as a healer watch the combat unfold and react accordingly it the most chill playstyle around and I love it because of that.
Now if only they launch a ESO a server with tab targeting and the left click/right click weaving was removed I'd be there instantly, One can dream.
I usually just "mouse clicked" directly on the specific target I wanted to attack, then clicked on the next target when the time came.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I usually had a "target nearest enemy" key next to my movement keys as an "oh shit" key and an assist key (if one was available), but 90% of my targeting was a mouse click.
Action/ aim targeting I think is best left for PvP centric games that aren't class interdependent but can be team/ realm based. ESO Cyrodil or Warhammer online suit this style ok. BDO is fun to play solo PvE, but to me just doesn't work as a traditional raiding MMO.
I think in general each style has its merits, but any game needs to be designed around one or the other. Tab gives you slower cast strategic gameplay while Action is more of a fast paced FFA combat.
There are much more variables in a fight than just precise cast or placement of AoE. You camprate TabTarget with ESO which is hybrod style of combat - not really action combat.
What I can see as action combat is BDO atm or TERA as a bit older representation of games.
It is not about feeling to be frustrated or feeling to have wasted skills. What is that? It is a really stupid description for me. It says to me that someone who wrote that never played an action-combat game really.
I feel the biggest issue is the TAB TARGET repetitiveness in the combat. Like ESO has too. Once you get into the game on a high level, you spam 5 keys on the keyboards and that's all, spam the same buttons in the round. On the other hand, action combat goes more into FPS style, you have to be more precise with better reflex.
I also like action combat, but I haven't seen it done right in a MMORPG. I've never liked BDO, because you have to learn and memorize combos. I don't enjoy that because I don't have the best of memories, and combining memorizing combos, executing them, avoiding mechanics, and trying to enjoy the scenery around you is too much for me. I don't like ESO's combat, because it combines skill usage with action combat. My fingers can't make that work effectively.
I'd rather have a combat system like Dark Souls in a MMORPG, where there isn't skill usage, but more learning an enemies patterns and using your attacks, well timed blocks/dodges, and the right weapon to overcome your adversary. I love how the souls games incorporates character building, pattern learning, action combat, gear acquisition/upgrading, and dungeon delving and exploration to form a complete experience of exploration and a sense of danger.
I'm open to other ideas too. I like how the Destiny series incorporated FPS combat and abilities. I like how ARPGs incorporate hack n slash with abilities. I just don't like the half ass combat systems like WoW and ESO, where you're too busy trying to manipulate your hands to execute your abilities and dodge the bad at the expense of actually enjoying the world and dungeons the dev team created for you.
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Also important to me is mobility. I hate having to stand still every time I use an ability. Dodging and kiting should be a meaningful factor too.
Then I prefer skills and not fixed classes. A hybrid like in Anarchy Online works for me too). I would like to see that the behaviour of combat abilities depend on chosen character skills. And also determine which combat abilities you get. And there should be a large pool of abilities to chose from, but you can only have 10-15 active at one time. There needs to be reason to change combat setups for certain situations (like in GW1). And this should be possible anytime outside combat.
No global cooldown for abilities(I hate this with a passion) and enough decent interrupts.
I've just can't farm solo in tab-based combat because is really boring, but dungeons are better than in action combat.
Plus the "action"/"twitch" are usually more painful click-fests; I mean that in a literal sense, like go-see-the-doctor hand pain.