a real question though: If there aren't enough people in game in the area you are at, will you still be able to play?
I specifically talk about this in the intro to the video (don't have the timestamp but it's somewhere in the first few minutes).
Just like EverQuest 1, you can absolutely solo your way to the cap. Or duo, or trio.
However, dungeons and raids require groups. So sure, you can still play (just like you can/could in EQ), but you won't be able to do dungeons/raids without other folks.
Which is fine for some people. There were plenty of players in EverQuest who didn't give a shit about dungeons or raids and just wanted to hang out and be a part of the world, craft a bit, duo with their wife/hubby/bestf friend, explore.
That first bandit camp in the video that we come across, by the campfire; I was solo pulling that on one of my characters a few days back.
Granted, I was a very specific build. Think how the necro or druid or wizard could do things on their own that others might not be able to do in EverQuest. I was on a Water / Duelist combo, so with some careful pulling and some nicely placed DoTs, I was able to hold that camp on my own.
My tank? Not so much. But that's OK. The tank's place to shine is in a group setting, keeping the mobs focused on him and absorbing all the hitpoints.
Makes sense, in most early MMORPGs ranged / pet classes usually were the best for soloing as they could avoid taking hits by kiting, burning the NPCs down with spells/dots or letting the pet tank.
Wasn't as efficient as grouping but was acceptable progression for those unable or unwilling to find a group.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Makes sense, in most early MMORPGs ranged / pet classes usually were the best for soloing as they could avoid taking hits by kiting, burning the NPCs down with spells/dots or letting the pet tank.
Wasn't as efficient as grouping but was acceptable progression for those unable or unwilling to find a group.
That's sort of the objective, to make sure there are things for people to do outside of grouping.
That being said, we're focused on building a group-based game. The vast majority of content (dungeons/raids/hardest sections of zones) is designed for the group. Which is no different than EverQuest was in the sense that, sure, you could solo your way to the cap, duo and trio here and there, get really creative with specific builds and solo here and there, the *bulk* of the content of the game was for players who were grouped up and doing things together.
We're building these zones and dungeons to have ranges of 30-50 "levels" (we don't have levels, but let's use that for the sake of argument), so there are LOTS of things to do for players of all ranges. And that includes areas that can be soloed (i.e. areas close to town and perhaps pockets here and there), areas with small group content (i.e. bandit camps), and then the dungeons (further out from cities and requiring large groups of 5-6 players up to the max of 8 players).
But we want to make sure that, just like EQ, there are things players can do when they are waiting around for a group, waiting for friends to log on, or for those times when they just don't feel like grouping up.
The caveat is that the group-based focus of our game is always at the forefront, so dungeons/raids are pretty much off limits unless you go in with a group.
I did remove what i said because as someone pointed out i was getting my games mixed up.I think it was Inferna that i was referring to.I try out Soooo many games trying to find a good one and always disappointed more so than when i went in.
I looked around my HD because like i said i try so many different games,just spent hours checking out "defend the Night" so i lose track,i have not yet tried Saga of Lucimia.
On the topic of "frame rates".
To me the frame rates are not as simple as saying i get this many frames or that many.Example if the graphics are really poor then yeah i expect frames of 200 so then 80 frames would be terrible.If the graphics are very high end then yeah i expect 30-50 on a good to decent card.Point being that a simple frame rate number doesn't tell me much.
My PC is using a very old gpu ,my laptop has the power,it is a gaming laptop that i simply connect to my big screen if i need the power.However on that note,i could play anything that even looks like FFXI,i don't need shiny graphics,i much prefer a quality game design over the graphics any day.I look at more than just the simple side of graphics like how complex the models are,the textures used ,animations are very important for me etc etc.
I was looking at some game today and the sky was one simple non moving texture pasted to the top of the world wall,sad really.So there are a lot of little things i look at that tells me the game designers know their stuff and look at all the detail to make a game world look "plausibly" real.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Makes sense, in most early MMORPGs ranged / pet classes usually were the best for soloing as they could avoid taking hits by kiting, burning the NPCs down with spells/dots or letting the pet tank.
Wasn't as efficient as grouping but was acceptable progression for those unable or unwilling to find a group.
That's sort of the objective, to make sure there are things for people to do outside of grouping.
That being said, we're focused on building a group-based game. The vast majority of content (dungeons/raids/hardest sections of zones) is designed for the group. Which is no different than EverQuest was in the sense that, sure, you could solo your way to the cap, duo and trio here and there, get really creative with specific builds and solo here and there, the *bulk* of the content of the game was for players who were grouped up and doing things together.
We're building these zones and dungeons to have ranges of 30-50 "levels" (we don't have levels, but let's use that for the sake of argument), so there are LOTS of things to do for players of all ranges. And that includes areas that can be soloed (i.e. areas close to town and perhaps pockets here and there), areas with small group content (i.e. bandit camps), and then the dungeons (further out from cities and requiring large groups of 5-6 players up to the max of 8 players).
But we want to make sure that, just like EQ, there are things players can do when they are waiting around for a group, waiting for friends to log on, or for those times when they just don't feel like grouping up.
The caveat is that the group-based focus of our game is always at the forefront, so dungeons/raids are pretty much off limits unless you go in with a group.
Just curious, any feel for how easily multi-boxing will be? Not botting, player must be manually controlling both accounts.
To work well the game would need slash commands, such as /stick or /follow so will SOL support a full range of such commands like EQ1 and others did?
Once I got good at it I leveled many characters via multiboxing in DAOC, especially ones which weren't very group friendly or desirable like stealthers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I did check out this game awhile back,some of it's ideas are good on paper some imo should be tweaked and some ideas i don't like.Obviously no game is going to completely be 100% to someone's liking but i like to point out stuff that matters to me.
"grouping"no question,high fives but NOT a simple answer.I want the game world to feel like a plausible world,i want to feel like a character in a world.The idea of RAIDS unless it was some raid on an opposing faction NEVER makes sense to me.
"8 man groups"...Way too big,i feel 4-6 is perfect.I go as low as 4 for a reason,a VERY good reason.If your playing a game like Wow ,your character is severely handcuffed so then yeah it is EASY for the developer to make content,easy to make raids or whatever.Inside of FFXI the class structure made it so that a very skilled/competent player could form a smaller group of 3-4 and still succeed like a 6 man group.
It would take me way too long to go into detail of all the ins and outs,you simply had to play vanilla FFXI to understand it all but basically like EQ1 but better and more in depth.
Matter of fact the FFXI design even allowed a player to SOLO group oriented combat and i am even talking about fighting NM's "Notorious Monsters" or as most like to call them "named".Example again if you played vanilla FFXI you would know about the Rdm/Nin builds.
The target goal of course is GROUPING,so a well designed combat/character/group design makes sure that grouping is most efficient,faster and allows for faster xp gains.It is again NOT as simple as that,xp gains are towards "levels",there should also be SKILL gains and that is an another topic of "depth of design".
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The main issue i have with modern game design is it seems the vast majority of developers do not have the money or team to make a AAA game or they all jump on the same bandwagon,example ARPG designs,battle Royale designs. So because so many just jump on the money train,it is really tough to find a AAA mmorpg to play,matter of fact,other than Defend the Night,nothing looks promising to me right now. Maybe Saga of Lucimia pulls it off,maybe Pantheon pulls it off,make no mistake i wish ALL devs the best of luck but i am still going to critique each and look for a game i feel will keep me interested for many years and not 2 months.
I will say this about Saga of Lucimia,they do "get it"when comes to what a mmorpg should be like but i am not so sure on the actual implementation of ideas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Just curious, any feel for how easily multi-boxing will be? Not botting, player must be manually controlling both accounts.
To work well the game would need slash commands, such as /stick or /follow so will SOL support a full range of such commands like EQ1 and others did?
Once I got good at it I leveled many characters via multiboxing in DAOC, especially ones which weren't very group friendly or desirable like stealthers.
I'm sure players may find ways to creatively multi-box.
I've always boxed, since EQ1. Still boxing in WoW Classic (warrior/priest combo). In my downtime, waiting for groupmates to log on, or when I only have 30-45 minutes to play and I don't want to try to find people for such a short session. Always ditch the box for other players if they are on the same quest and need it, or if I'm going to do a dungeon (unless we are a man short, then I'll bring the alt).
Very familiar with the difference between botting and boxing.
That being said, it won't be quite so easy in our game, since you don't earn exp by levels, and there are no experience points. So it's not as easy as, say, EQ1 where you could have a level 60 put thorns on a level 1 and have them run around and soak up tons of exp.
Or WoW where you can have your max-level guy come into a dungeon and carry everyone else.
Nor will you be able to have a twink character in the group leading the charge and killing everything with 1-shot, and then sharing the exp around.
Instead, everything is based on successful use of abilities. You get skillups via successful attacks; if you miss, you get nothing. If you can't attack the npc because someone killed it too quickly, you get nothing.
If you have someone in the group who is, say, an end-game character with a weapon that can one-shot everything, it does no good to everyone in the group because they only way they progress their abilities is by actively engaging in combat against the mob.
Again, I'm sure players will find creative ways to multi-box. Stick their high-level character out there in the front and let him soak up the hits while the rest of the group beats on the npcs, as an example (not a flawless solution, as we don't have hitpoint bloat in our game and an end-game character back in newbie valley will still take damage from mobs, although he can take quite a few more hits than a player in newbie gear, and there's still aggro to worry about, and AoE attacks from the mobs).
But it's not quite as simple in our game as it is in most exp-based games where it's all about those experience points.
In my eyes, boxing is evil, especially in group-oriented games. It is typically used to circumvent the restrictions of a single character system. Boxing tends to reduce a multi-player game into a single player experience, a single player and their army of characters taking on the world, instead of interacting with the community.
I'll have to see how this affects SoL, but I am not encouraged. I don't think there is a solution to the Do-It-Yourself syndrome, no matter how creative and skilled a team may be.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know, I know. Anyone who doesn't kiss your ass is a troll. Something else common among indie developers.
As I said, prove me wrong with an on-time release of a quality game.
We prove folks like you wrong with every new update, every new patch, every new investor, every new paying customer.
Which is why I'm always happy to continue replying to comments like yours, because traffic is traffic and conversion rates are always in my favor.
The moment trolls stop driving sales my way is the day I'll stop replying
Anything to scrape up one more sale, I guess. Seriously, though, good luck with your game. In this genre, you're going to need it.
You know, if a company like Blizzard had said they only want an echo chamber comprised of nothing but people that give them money many regulars here would call them "greedy and evil" but when an indie developer says it it's "can't wait for your game".
You know, if a company like Blizzard had said they only want an echo chamber comprised of nothing but people that give them money many regulars here would call them "greedy and evil" but when an indie developer says it it's "can't wait for your game".
It's amazing, I thought the same while reading this whole thread.
Also because this game has been adopted as this sites pet project everyone is suddenly fine that Ren comes across in this thread a pretty fucking smug in any response to people who don't sip from the Lucimia Kool-Aid cup.
I would heed Slapshots advice if I were Ren.
Stop trying to prove your right and you know it all.
I get your excited and confident, but you come across in this thread like the typical entitled dev who has a quick biting response to anyone whose comment you don't like.
And I have to echo also what Slap said your community manager should be handling your PR or why even have her at all.
If she is just part time she could easily handle a few thread responses.
AFAIK she gets like what less than 75 viewers when she streams. Not exactly knocking it out of the park.
You know, if a company like Blizzard had said they only want an echo chamber comprised of nothing but people that give them money many regulars here would call them "greedy and evil" but when an indie developer says it it's "can't wait for your game".
It's amazing, I thought the same while reading this whole thread.
Also because this game has been adopted as this sites pet project everyone is suddenly fine that Ren comes across in this thread a pretty fucking smug in any response to people who don't sip from the Lucimia Kool-Aid cup.
I would heed Slapshots advice if I were Ren.
Stop trying to prove your right and you know it all.
I get your excited and confident, but you come across in this thread like the typical entitled dev who has a quick biting response to anyone whose comment you don't like.
And I have to echo also what Slap said your community manager should be handling your PR or why even have her at all.
If she is just part time she could easily handle a few thread responses.
AFAIK she gets like what less than 75 viewers when she streams. Not exactly knocking it out of the park.
I truly do wish you the best with SOL.
But man this entire thread came across as cringe.
Opinions are like what?
So, yeah
Meanwhile, we'll keep on keeping on just like we've always done, and let the so-called "critics" (aka couch developers) keep on keeping on just like they've always done.
Onwards and upwards, adventurers!
Also, thanks for the thread bump and more traffic for us, weeee!
Comments
A little bit of hard work and perseverance can go a long way towards building something tangible.
Wasn't as efficient as grouping but was acceptable progression for those unable or unwilling to find a group.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That being said, we're focused on building a group-based game. The vast majority of content (dungeons/raids/hardest sections of zones) is designed for the group. Which is no different than EverQuest was in the sense that, sure, you could solo your way to the cap, duo and trio here and there, get really creative with specific builds and solo here and there, the *bulk* of the content of the game was for players who were grouped up and doing things together.
We're building these zones and dungeons to have ranges of 30-50 "levels" (we don't have levels, but let's use that for the sake of argument), so there are LOTS of things to do for players of all ranges. And that includes areas that can be soloed (i.e. areas close to town and perhaps pockets here and there), areas with small group content (i.e. bandit camps), and then the dungeons (further out from cities and requiring large groups of 5-6 players up to the max of 8 players).
But we want to make sure that, just like EQ, there are things players can do when they are waiting around for a group, waiting for friends to log on, or for those times when they just don't feel like grouping up.
The caveat is that the group-based focus of our game is always at the forefront, so dungeons/raids are pretty much off limits unless you go in with a group.
I looked around my HD because like i said i try so many different games,just spent hours checking out "defend the Night" so i lose track,i have not yet tried Saga of Lucimia.
On the topic of "frame rates".
To me the frame rates are not as simple as saying i get this many frames or that many.Example if the graphics are really poor then yeah i expect frames of 200 so then 80 frames would be terrible.If the graphics are very high end then yeah i expect 30-50 on a good to decent card.Point being that a simple frame rate number doesn't tell me much.
My PC is using a very old gpu ,my laptop has the power,it is a gaming laptop that i simply connect to my big screen if i need the power.However on that note,i could play anything that even looks like FFXI,i don't need shiny graphics,i much prefer a quality game design over the graphics any day.I look at more than just the simple side of graphics like how complex the models are,the textures used ,animations are very important for me etc etc.
I was looking at some game today and the sky was one simple non moving texture pasted to the top of the world wall,sad really.So there are a lot of little things i look at that tells me the game designers know their stuff and look at all the detail to make a game world look "plausibly" real.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
To work well the game would need slash commands, such as /stick or /follow so will SOL support a full range of such commands like EQ1 and others did?
Once I got good at it I leveled many characters via multiboxing in DAOC, especially ones which weren't very group friendly or desirable like stealthers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"grouping"no question,high fives but NOT a simple answer.I want the game world to feel like a plausible world,i want to feel like a character in a world.The idea of RAIDS unless it was some raid on an opposing faction NEVER makes sense to me.
"8 man groups"...Way too big,i feel 4-6 is perfect.I go as low as 4 for a reason,a VERY good reason.If your playing a game like Wow ,your character is severely handcuffed so then yeah it is EASY for the developer to make content,easy to make raids or whatever.Inside of FFXI the class structure made it so that a very skilled/competent player could form a smaller group of 3-4 and still succeed like a 6 man group.
It would take me way too long to go into detail of all the ins and outs,you simply had to play vanilla FFXI to understand it all but basically like EQ1 but better and more in depth.
Matter of fact the FFXI design even allowed a player to SOLO group oriented combat and i am even talking about fighting NM's "Notorious Monsters" or as most like to call them "named".Example again if you played vanilla FFXI you would know about the Rdm/Nin builds.
The target goal of course is GROUPING,so a well designed combat/character/group design makes sure that grouping is most efficient,faster and allows for faster xp gains.It is again NOT as simple as that,xp gains are towards "levels",there should also be SKILL gains and that is an another topic of "depth of design".
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So because so many just jump on the money train,it is really tough to find a AAA mmorpg to play,matter of fact,other than Defend the Night,nothing looks promising to me right now.
Maybe Saga of Lucimia pulls it off,maybe Pantheon pulls it off,make no mistake i wish ALL devs the best of luck but i am still going to critique each and look for a game i feel will keep me interested for many years and not 2 months.
I will say this about Saga of Lucimia,they do "get it"when comes to what a mmorpg should be like but i am not so sure on the actual implementation of ideas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I've always boxed, since EQ1. Still boxing in WoW Classic (warrior/priest combo). In my downtime, waiting for groupmates to log on, or when I only have 30-45 minutes to play and I don't want to try to find people for such a short session. Always ditch the box for other players if they are on the same quest and need it, or if I'm going to do a dungeon (unless we are a man short, then I'll bring the alt).
Very familiar with the difference between botting and boxing.
That being said, it won't be quite so easy in our game, since you don't earn exp by levels, and there are no experience points. So it's not as easy as, say, EQ1 where you could have a level 60 put thorns on a level 1 and have them run around and soak up tons of exp.
Or WoW where you can have your max-level guy come into a dungeon and carry everyone else.
Nor will you be able to have a twink character in the group leading the charge and killing everything with 1-shot, and then sharing the exp around.
Instead, everything is based on successful use of abilities. You get skillups via successful attacks; if you miss, you get nothing. If you can't attack the npc because someone killed it too quickly, you get nothing.
If you have someone in the group who is, say, an end-game character with a weapon that can one-shot everything, it does no good to everyone in the group because they only way they progress their abilities is by actively engaging in combat against the mob.
Again, I'm sure players will find creative ways to multi-box. Stick their high-level character out there in the front and let him soak up the hits while the rest of the group beats on the npcs, as an example (not a flawless solution, as we don't have hitpoint bloat in our game and an end-game character back in newbie valley will still take damage from mobs, although he can take quite a few more hits than a player in newbie gear, and there's still aggro to worry about, and AoE attacks from the mobs).
But it's not quite as simple in our game as it is in most exp-based games where it's all about those experience points.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Cheers
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I always love the Kevin Bacon scenes:
Thank You Sir May I Have Another!
and
Remain Calm. All is well!!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It's amazing, I thought the same while reading this whole thread.
Also because this game has been adopted as this sites pet project everyone is suddenly fine that Ren comes across in this thread a pretty fucking smug in any response to people who don't sip from the Lucimia Kool-Aid cup.
I would heed Slapshots advice if I were Ren.
Stop trying to prove your right and you know it all.
I get your excited and confident, but you come across in this thread like the typical entitled dev who has a quick biting response to anyone whose comment you don't like.
And I have to echo also what Slap said your community manager should be handling your PR or why even have her at all.
If she is just part time she could easily handle a few thread responses.
AFAIK she gets like what less than 75 viewers when she streams. Not exactly knocking it out of the park.
I truly do wish you the best with SOL.
But man this entire thread came across as cringe.
So, yeah
Meanwhile, we'll keep on keeping on just like we've always done, and let the so-called "critics" (aka couch developers) keep on keeping on just like they've always done.
Onwards and upwards, adventurers!
Also, thanks for the thread bump and more traffic for us, weeee!