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That whole topic was incorrect
Tyrgris
Member Posts: 321
First off who ever started that topic of "No PvP = Bad Game" is completely in error.
Lets look at it in a more positive and progressive angle.
It should have read...... "Pure PvP = Bad Game"
Ever notice that no matter HOW MUCH it has PVP in a MMORPG, the content is still based off PvE and the game still is founded on PvE. Even in Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot you still have the environment to make any successful accomplishments. Eventhough DAoC has it's RvR, it is only significant at the end when Mythic runs out of ideas for content.
Show me a PVP MMORPG that is "PURE PVP" where content is based around just the PC's! Then I will show you Battlefield 2 and Halflife 2. That is the closest we will come to having Pure PVP. Without PvE content all you have is a FPS game with nothing to do except fight each other over and over.
Yes, you may have a diverse fight since everyone has a different style of tactics, but when you fight that same person, it is like fighting the same monster. How many different PC's can you fight? However with the changing of AI that is coming, I think fighting NPC's will prove to be more diverse than fighting other players. Plus you get content that is in PVE.
On top of that, just because others than yourself like PvP doesn't mean they are good at it, so what makes the majority of Pure PVP players more skilled than a NPC? If I am correct, most people I play against in any FPS game or PvP game, SUCK!!! it is like playing against someone that has oiled their keyboard. I get more competittion from monsters than most gamers out there.
Sorry to say, but you all that hate PvE, get use to it, it will never go away. PvP will NEVER stand on it's own alone in a MMORPG and can only be offered as a suppliment to a PvE game. If you take out PvE in a MMORPG then you take out the guts and heart and only left with a cut and dry mindless FPS style game. So in other words that is why most PvE argue that you all that only like PVP are either stupid or just don't like to read, because if you take out PvE you are taking out the stories, content and other things that give meaning to doing quests and such rather than just running around mindlessly killing each other.
I can see it now in a Pure PvP world...Everyone would be fighting each other over who is the REAL UBER LEET MURDERER!!! Wow, awesome! I got more skillz than you.
I bet a whole years salary that if one of the devs came up with a MP-Action-RPG-what-not game where you leveled, had outposts where newbies came in and a ton of purty looking armor in different colors and even dyes, plus towns to control and handled much like GW so there isn't a monthly fee....You will never really hear anything again on MMORPG.com about how RPGers are carebears and PvP is the future of the MMORPG worlds.
Comments
sorry I had to edit that and make a few key changes, so I hope I did this before anyone starts to quote me. If you quote before the changes, please re post your response. Thank you!!!
EDIT: Plus some spelling errors. Sorry, had to fix for the ones that some people just can't grasp the word I was using just because a vowel was missing.
J/K hehe
No more editing , I promise
Oh, yeah one other thing I would like to add... Even of course WoW and all others that have PvP "Implemented" into their "PvE" GAME. The reason why I say this is that if you really look at the foundation of ALL MMORPG's whether or not they say the are a PvP MMORPG or even have PvP servers, still the foundation is PvE.
That is more than likely why we see topics that pop up now and then about the name calling of carebear or topics of how PvP integrated games are more successful than non-PvP games. The reason why is that these are people that are a FPS gamer stuck in a RPG gamers world.
Look at it in their prespective. They want to fight other players, but other players are too busy hunting or doing quests. They get rejected or ignored unless if they are in a world where it is open PVP. Then they are happy. They call the shots and do as they may. Of course we all know where that leads.
The way I see it is they come here hoping to change that forever and hope it will turn more out there way. Why they argue with others that aren't PVPers? I don't know.
However, the only thing I can say as to end all of arguments with this PvE sucks and PVP are for R347 Gamers is this....
You can use your own wording, but here is the typical statement.
Take out everything related to PvE and what do you have?
That my friend separates the men from the boys and the girls from the ladies!!!
Nuff said. Well, time to go back to some Fragging in BF2.... Got to get my kill quota for the day before I go do some questing in WoW
.Sorry, never was a EQ fan...But for those of you that are into Middle Earth, Cya in LotRo ...Oh YEAH...and no PVP. HELL YESS. NO GRIEVERS, NO GANK FESTS, NO BULLCRAP!!!! Now that will be some awesome FUN!!!! Nothing better than tieing up the kid in his room for kicking your book out of your hand, if you know what I mean!!!
Nonsensical rabble..
Eve Online has pure pvp outside of the npc controlled areas and i think everyone will agree that npc content in eve is the most repeitive and mindnumbingly boring thing since <insert SOE game>. Pure PvP games have a level of depth and complexity wich pure PvE games can never hope to achieve.
I mean what are you REALLY doing in EQ2? All you do from logging in to logging out is competing against the computer, be it with other players or alone you are still competing against the computer. And even then, you arent fighting "for" anything. You are merely fighting to get better items so that you can fight something bigger and get better items so that you again can fight something bigger. Rinse, repeat, add ailing vomit.
EQ2 will never have a "player made" history, ever. In months or years, players of then will not look back in history and talk about the time that party killed the dragon of bla bla because everyone else will have done it.
In pure PvP games, players can truly shape their own destinys. Just take a look at eve online and compare that to the generic treadmill npc harvest you are currently playing to see what you are missing. Or better yet, read pc gamers article on world of warcraft vs eve online to see whats wrong with theme park mmos like EQ2 and WoW.
http://www.omgwtfpwnage.com/eve_article/1.jpg
http://www.omgwtfpwnage.com/eve_article/2.jpg
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
^ Best post ever.
lol, all that thinking and writing and then BURN! Put down by one simple post. lol. funny. (what
pirrg said)
Personaly I like having PvP arena based play. I like the gladiator feel to it.
Quote, "There is hardly any skill in PvPs overall. PvP are ultimately decided by tactics, exploiting your class advantage over others; using certain weapons that give you a distinct advantage over most, if not all classes and exploiting bugs. Guild War is a primary example of people using tactics, not skill, to beat other class. (Spike Groups just require you to aim for the same target.), WoW's Shaman can kite/snare you to death with it's spell, proving exploiting your class gives you a huge advantage over others. A axe wielding warrior in WoW is example of how using certain weapons gives you a big advantage over those who don't since investing in axe attribute allows you to critical hit often. And exploiting bugs like the rumored "End of the World" bug in Halo 2 pretty much destroys all game. (End of the World bug allows players to float outside of the virtual sphere, allowing players to stand in thin air making them difficult to target and giving players a huge sniping advantage.)
There no doubt about it, there is no skill in PvP, if you can easily cheat to win and cheater only prove they aren't badasses, but dumbasses for ruining the game with exploits and cheats."
With the except of Guild Wars, intelligent people play PvE and morons PvP. Notice that games with PvP are the ones that do a LOT of nerfing to classes. PvPers are more likely to whine about how unfair another class advantage is over them resulting in unfair nerfs. There has been a PvE/PvP game that didn't have it's share of nerfs due to whines of other players.
There are some good points in both arguments. It's very difficult to allow PvE or PvP activities to affect the world on a consistent basis. It's one thing to have events, like the EQII's unlocking froglok event where you could personally undertake a quest to unlock the froglok race for yourself or a massive raid could unlock them for the entire server. That's a one time thing. Once it's done, it won't change.
Even in DAOC where the balance of power is supposed to constantly shift, there have been imbalances where one realm consistently holds all of the relics, etc. This led to the "ninja raid" where an underdog realm would get together when server population was at its lowest to reclaim their relics or where both underdog realms would "cooperate" in order to get their relics back (and possibly take yours). Same with access to the RvR-controlled dungeon, Darkness Falls - only the realm controlling the most keeps in RvR can enter. However, the effect of these activities still do not have an overwhelming impact on the general game world or its players.
In order for a game to allow its PvP or PvE to control happenings in the game world, it has to be done in a manner where the scale can't tip too far in any direction. If a server can be dominated by one guild (or other group of players; realm, class, race, alignment, etc.) to the extreme detriment of the play experience of other players, it won't fly. In other words, "rewards" have to be basically limited to fluff and nonsense - titles, statuary (monuments, etc.), banners, town/house decorations, and the like. And let's face it - that's all we really want - a way to show others what we've accomplished - either individually or as a group.
LOL!!! NICE
To the OP:
No offense, my friend, but saying that pure PVP is a bad game is just as insanely stupid as saying No PVP is a bad game. There are plenty of pure PVP MMORPG's out there.
Darkspace, EVE & PlanetSide to name a few. More are being made every day. The "Pure PVP" MMO "Genre" is VERY new, really, and is only just beginning to take off. Just because *you* do not like pure PVP does not mean others don't. And there are tons of things to do with pure PVP content if you do it right.
The main reason that most PVP oriented MMORPG's have elements of PVE MMORPG's is because they evolved from PVE MMORPGS and few have completely broken away from the mold. It's only a matter of time though because there is a decent sized market for the 'pure PVP' genre. PlanetSide has 55,000 users in just the US and parts of Europe. EVE has 67,000 users and they're mostly european and US. Neither of those two titles has tapped the asian market where PVP is extremely popular.
Now, my personal opinion is that a blend of PVP and PVE is the best way to implement an MMORPG. AO, DAOC, UO, SWG and ShadowBane seem to have been the most successful at this in the US and Europe. EQ2 and WoW are moving in that direction as well. This taps the largest possible combination of the two areas (PvP and PvE) but that doesn't mean that a PVP only game isn't viable. PlanetSide is a prime example of just how viable the market really is. So was MPBT 3025 which only got cancelled because of a corporate dispute between Micro$oft and EA. If that hadn't occurred MPBT 3025 would have been released and would have easily surpassed PlanetSide, and probably EVE as well, in number of players. Possibly even breaking into the 100-200k subscriber range just in the US and Europe. MPBT 3025, by the way, was PURE PVP.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Good posts with goood arguments here. Id like to add mine too.
First of all, I dont consider PURE PvP or PURE PvE bad, its all about taste. I personaly like EQ2 (pure PvE at the moment) and I like Planetside (pure PvP). However, Eve is NOT pure PvP. It is heavy on PvP but it has PvE content, and lots of it. I played Eve for a month and i havent PvPed once - Im that kind of a person. I like to be in control and not be forced to PvP when I dont feel like it (unfortunately in Eve there are no PvE or non PvP servers where I would be able to PvP when I feel like it). I dont like beeing fed by force, thats why i dont like PvP in Eve - same way as I dont like drinking coka cola when im forced to.
Second, PvP relies VERY heavily on your skills - tactics and strategy - those ARE your skills. If you dont consider tactics and strategy skills, then NONE of the games require u to have skills.
Tactics...
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=tactics
1 : a device for accomplishing an end
2 : a method of employing forces in combat
Strategy...
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=strategy
1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy
2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal
So tactics and strategy is perhaps 80-90% of PvP, the rest is random chance.
I personaly like PvE environment with unforced PvP, but thats just personal preference.
In my eyes, a perfect games has WoW gamestyle, EQ2/WoW combat style, EQ2/WoW/Eve graphics (not EQ2 models, they suck), Eve world, Planetside PvP, DAOC realm PvP, CoH char looks and Horizons tradeskills.
Im probly missing some games but im hungry and cant think straight untill i have a dose of calories... going to Mr Sub now..see ya
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
You are splitting hairs saying PVP has PVE in it. There are no "pure PVP" mmorpgs and saying a PVP game is a PVE game is wrong. Im not a "I hate carebear fanatic", I used to play FFXI and I loved that game, and there isnt even dueling in it. I just think your splitting hairs by stating the obvious and trying to pretend that PVP games are PVE. What your pretty much saying is, if you ask for a chocolate donut at a store and they give you a chocolate donut with a hot dog on top of it, it is still as good as a regular chocolate donut because, despite the disgusting hot dog on top of it, it still has chocolate in it.
-And no, before everyone flames me for defending PVPers, I hate their arguments too. Games arent good because they have PVP, look at Runescape. I love PVE but your argument is wrong and a PVP game isnt a PVE game.
Oh so highly intellegent here!!!! I quote:
Firemagic "^ Best post ever."
Moonfog "lol, all that thinking and writing and then BURN! Put down by one simple post. lol. funny. (what
pirrg said)"
Next time you two should learn to have a opinion rather than show you are true followers and not a brain to spare for thought. Typical of a PvP player, aye? You both must be grunts, am I right?
Firemagic, if that was the best post ever then you sure have a lot to see in just this session alone. Must still be in kindergarten I suppose? correct me if I am wrong.
Moonfog, First off if that is a lot of thinking and writing to you I bet you think short stories are a novel. However, the rest of your post only shows how ignorant you truly are. I bet that fog in your brain, I mean name has some meaning after all aye?
Next time you two post, try to have some thoughts to share rather than posting a couple of dorfs. Or don't tell me that you both are just posting to get your count up? For some reason, I would believe that more than what you posted.
Always a laugh riot when someone automatically assumes that anyone that's into PvP is 13, illiterate, etc.
It just makes it funnier that this was the same person crying about people making assumptions about what games he played, and so on.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Always a laugh riot when someone automatically assumes that anyone that's into PvP is 13, illiterate, etc.
It just makes it funnier that this was the same person crying about people making assumptions about what games he played, and so on.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
huh? Dude I read this whole topic and you make as much sense as a crackhead. Or is that some odd attempt to use the term "Pot. Kettle. Black." in the attempt to look smart?
LOL, is that a pic of you IRL? I bet that is sherm that you are smoking huh? LOL. With the way you type out I wouldn't doubt it. Tyrgris I wouldn't even give him nor that Firemagic and Moonfog the time of day here, if you look them up they are Trolls. Trust me on this, I know!!! However, Coldmeat is just on crack so saying anything to him would be too much anyways LMFAO.
Always a laugh riot when someone automatically assumes that anyone that's into PvP is 13, illiterate, etc.
It just makes it funnier that this was the same person crying about people making assumptions about what games he played, and so on.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
huh? Dude I read this whole topic and you make as much sense as a crackhead. Or is that some odd attempt to use the term "Pot. Kettle. Black." in the attempt to look smart?
LOL, is that a pic of you IRL? I bet that is sherm that you are smoking huh? LOL. With the way you type out I wouldn't doubt it. Tyrgris I wouldn't even give him nor that Firemagic and Moonfog the time of day here, if you look them up they are Trolls. Trust me on this, I know!!! However, Coldmeat is just on crack so saying anything to him would be too much anyways LMFAO.
Coldmeat likes Henry Rollins so I am forbidden by punk rock law to go against him. You are correct though, the other 2 are pure trolls of just about every game.
Coldmeat's pic is of Lenny Bruce, you philistine.
And judging by your insistence that people who disagree with you are on crack, as your cohort anarchyart does, I'll assume you just finished reading...
I've posted my feelings on PvP several times and I chose to agree with someone who echoed my opinions rather than post them again but suffice to say, combatting predictable AI monsters is not, cannot, and never will be as challenging as combatting strategically thinking human players.
The fact that PvP has never really been implemented 100% successfully in an MMORPG does not mean that PvP is a bad idea. Future generations will probably laugh at the MMO gamers of today, incredulous to the fact that we could only fight against AI monsters when there were thousands of people on the same server together.
8
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Edit: *apologies Firemagic, I thought you were referring to Anarchyart's post
I agree that PvP will continue to develop and improve, but I also believe that PvE will always be a part of mmos. Personally, I like a combination of both.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I didnt bother reading what you wrote after "Well, first off I don't consider Eve to be even a MMORPG. In my opinion it is a MMOSciFi. Secondly, in my opinion again, just like you have your above..." as you lost all credibility when you discarded a game you obivously havent played for more then a day(if at all). Tis fanatic carebaers like yourself that have ruined many a mmo to date.
Anarchyart, you proliferate the type of ignorance you think you're fighting by claiming that everyone whom disagrees with you is a troll. Its embarrassing to say the least.
_____________________
I am the flipside of the coin on which the troll and the fanboy are but one side.
...and do you guys notice that your whole discussion is simply about one question: Why playing computer games at all?
Either it is vs the AI or versus other players..who cares? As long as you enjoy it?
I wish those threads would be deleted right away...