If they can legally get the financials and prove fraud. But the problem is that according to kickstarter they show progress (albeit terrible progress that COE released) and stated where the funding went, then they are legally safe. I mean, if they have financials showing that salary went to employees like 100k each year or 200k each year (which I think is overboard) then I don't see how they would be held legally responsible. I hope that the Washington attorney does make a case against them, because I think what the company did is fraud, the problem is that it has to be proven in court which is not going to be easy.
The issue would be that they were still selling Digital Goods a week prior to announcing the shutdown.
No company ever operates in total darkness of their financials. They know exactly when expenses will overwhelm them.
The fact Caspy was still selling products, knowing the place was about to close (again you don't just decide on a whim), that is flat out scamming people for money before you 'exit'.
So, while us KSers, are rightfully SOL. Those who jumped in that last week and bought land deserve a full refund. And Caspy deserves jail time for continuing to sell product knowing the company was going to shutdown in the immediate future.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
...if he is a dick and dirtbag, I cannot even fathom what that makes of you.
Why would you respond to Slapshot like that? Last I checked, Slapshot didn't take 8+ mil from a bunch of people and ran off like a thief in the night.
Because he's a useless troll who stalks Slapshot and others around here.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
These silly backers have really no excuse for this nonsense. MMORPGS take years to make. Any fool that does not grasp that simple fact is a complete idiot. The only thing actionable here is that fact that the dev staff have been less than truthful with the backers. Big Deal, that sums up pretty much most development on games such as this.
So if you are a backer whining about this game, get real. Think before you whine because you are looking really foolish ATM
I agree that backers- especially those that lost thousands on the scam - were pretty foolish. However, you can't compare what happened here with the development of other mmos. This was quite clearly a scam from the get go. A deliberate, concerted, and prolonged exercise in scamming as much money as possible out of the community. It certainly goes far beyond "not being completely honest", haha.
In a way its kind of impressive how they could keep extracting money from the community and selling these flimsy ideas of how they could magically build the game in the face of failure after failure.
These silly backers have really no excuse for this nonsense. MMORPGS take years to make. Any fool that does not grasp that simple fact is a complete idiot. The only thing actionable here is that fact that the dev staff have been less than truthful with the backers. Big Deal, that sums up pretty much most development on games such as this.
So if you are a backer whining about this game, get real. Think before you whine because you are looking really foolish ATM
I agree that backers- especially those that lost thousands on the scam - were pretty foolish. However, you can't compare what happened here with the development of other mmos. This was quite clearly a scam from the get go. A deliberate, concerted, and prolonged exercise in scamming as much money as possible out of the community. It certainly goes far beyond "not being completely honest", haha.
In a way its kind of impressive how they could keep extracting money from the community and selling these flimsy ideas of how they could magically build the game in the face of failure after failure.
That is what always amazed me. I would BEG people to go back and read his previous State of Elyria messages and compare what he said to what actually happened in the year that passed. I went so far as to document each promise a few times and outline what he said and how that was not delivered, and yet he just would forget about it and promise a new carrot.
Instead of really listening, some people just tried to report the messages as trolling. When facts are trolling we have a real problem.
Edit: Here is an example from 2019 where I summarize the promises made in the 2018 State of Elyria. Look at each section. Fail after fail after fail. And the new State of Elyria's would just ignore the old promises and put new ones up. People just kept tossing money. To this day I really cannot comprehend it. https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478482/2018-state-of-elyria-retrospective/p1
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That is what always amazed me. I would BEG people to go back and read his previous State of Elyria messages and compare what he said to what actually happened in the year that passed. I went so far as to document each promise a few times and outline what he said and how that was not delivered, and yet he just would forget about it and promise a new carrot.
Instead of really listening, some people just tried to report the messages as trolling. When facts are trolling we have a real problem.
Edit: Here is an example from 2019 where I summarize the promises made in the 2018 State of Elyria. Look at each section. Fail after fail after fail. And the new State of Elyria's would just ignore the old promises and put new ones up. People just kept tossing money. To this day I really cannot comprehend it. https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478482/2018-state-of-elyria-retrospective/p1
Ahh yes, such a great year of failure that was, but it did give us one of my favorite memes.
"Much good, very WOW"
Although...last year's "We are the storm" is a close second.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is what always amazed me. I would BEG people to go back and read his previous State of Elyria messages and compare what he said to what actually happened in the year that passed. I went so far as to document each promise a few times and outline what he said and how that was not delivered, and yet he just would forget about it and promise a new carrot.
Instead of really listening, some people just tried to report the messages as trolling. When facts are trolling we have a real problem.
Edit: Here is an example from 2019 where I summarize the promises made in the 2018 State of Elyria. Look at each section. Fail after fail after fail. And the new State of Elyria's would just ignore the old promises and put new ones up. People just kept tossing money. To this day I really cannot comprehend it. https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478482/2018-state-of-elyria-retrospective/p1
Ahh yes, such a great year of failure that was, but it did give us one of my favorite memes.
"Much good, very WOW"
Although...last year's "We are the storm" is a close second.
I think this is the perfect time to share those amazing lyrics from Rise again, go get em Jeromy!
Welcome to the wild, no heroes and villains Welcome to the war, we've only begun, so Pick up your weapon and face it There's blood on the crown, go and take it You get one shot to make it out alive, so
Higher and higher you chase it It's deep in your bones, go and take it This is your moment, now is your time, so
Prove yourself and Rise, rise Make 'em remember you Rise Push through hell and Rise, rise They will remember you Rise
Welcome to the climb up, reach for the summit Visions pray that one false step lead the end, so
Higher and higher you chase it It's deep in your blood, go and take it This is your moment, take to the skies
Go and prove yourself and Rise, rise Make 'em remember you Rise Push through hell and Rise, rise They will remember you Rise
So get along,…
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
If they can legally get the financials and prove fraud. But the problem is that according to kickstarter they show progress (albeit terrible progress that COE released) and stated where the funding went, then they are legally safe. I mean, if they have financials showing that salary went to employees like 100k each year or 200k each year (which I think is overboard) then I don't see how they would be held legally responsible. I hope that the Washington attorney does make a case against them, because I think what the company did is fraud, the problem is that it has to be proven in court which is not going to be easy.
Well the Washington AG went after another crowdfunded project that didn't deliver on their promises and won. He not only went after the LLC, but also the owner of said LLC. The judgment included a $1,000 fine per complaint. We currently have 255 complaints filed against SBS, almost twice as many as Amazon and more than seven times as many as the third place complaints for the period of 3/25-4/11. The AG also got restitution for the 31 backers in that case. So he went after a crowdfund with only 31 complaints. I think we stand a pretty good chance here.
I honestly hope nothing comes of this, not because I want to see Jeromy Walsh get away with anything but because a lot of that responsibility falls on the backers themselves. The fact that they can throw money at a project like this and continue to do it when there's very little progress being made and nobody is asking any questions... It's their own fault. So I don't think litigation should be used in the face of many of these backers having zero personal responsibility.
BUT when the company outright lied to their backers about so many things, they should be held accountable, meaning people who lied do jail time since no one will ever see any money back.
If it's not all gone, I'm sure Jeremy did a good job of moving what's left around and hiding it in a good friend or family member's hands.
Well a judgment from the AG against him won't go away and all fees, restitution, and fines must be paid whether he currently has the assets to do so. He would be in financial ruin for the rest of his life. So move all the money you want, you still have to pay what is ordered if this goes to trial. If the typical $1,000 fine per complaint is filed against him if found guilty, that is currently $255,000....again this is if the AG takes the case and wins.
"Chronicles of Elyria Backers Are Contacting Washington Attorney General For Potential Action"
And they should!
If the money was legitimately spent though, you can't get blood from a turnip...
If the money is not all spent and, let's say, the CEO has the money, then they may be able to get some of it back.
Odds are, everyone that gave any money to this company for this game for any reason is never going to see a penny of it back.
In a class action suit you are correct, but if the AG takes this to trial, he can in fact get blood from a turnip. The fines, restitution, and fees will not go away. I may not get a dime back because it is quite possible Jeromy will just refuse to pay and go to jail, but I am fine with that. I just want a strong message sent to others who think kickstarter and other crowdfunding avenues are just get rich quick schemes with no repercussions.
If they can legally get the financials and prove fraud. But the problem is that according to kickstarter they show progress (albeit terrible progress that COE released) and stated where the funding went, then they are legally safe. I mean, if they have financials showing that salary went to employees like 100k each year or 200k each year (which I think is overboard) then I don't see how they would be held legally responsible. I hope that the Washington attorney does make a case against them, because I think what the company did is fraud, the problem is that it has to be proven in court which is not going to be easy.
When Soul Bound began running their own finacial events from their website, kickstarter rules and regulations are then void since the initial kickstart goal was reached. .
This is going to be fun to watch thes epeople be dragged into court.
problem is there are no proper rules and regulation in game industry...things like false advertisement(fall out 76, no man sky, anthem etc) predatory loot boxes and gambling etc.
as for this case the scammer can simply say these people donated the money willingly and they knew this project might fail, which is to some extent true and goes for every kickstarter and early access product, there is no solid contract or any kind of legal obligation, like i said there are no solid rules for it, the scammer can still get away with money specially with good lawyers.
Jeromy's biggest mistake was doing this in Washington State. The Attorney General there comes down very hard on Crowdfunding which fails to deliver. He doesn't care about excuses, he cares that money was raised for a product and the company failed to hold up their end of the agreement. This all falls under the Consumer Protection Act, so Jeromy may just be screwed.
Comments
The issue would be that they were still selling Digital Goods a week prior to announcing the shutdown.
No company ever operates in total darkness of their financials. They know exactly when expenses will overwhelm them.
The fact Caspy was still selling products, knowing the place was about to close (again you don't just decide on a whim), that is flat out scamming people for money before you 'exit'.
So, while us KSers, are rightfully SOL. Those who jumped in that last week and bought land deserve a full refund. And Caspy deserves jail time for continuing to sell product knowing the company was going to shutdown in the immediate future.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
In a way its kind of impressive how they could keep extracting money from the community and selling these flimsy ideas of how they could magically build the game in the face of failure after failure.
Instead of really listening, some people just tried to report the messages as trolling. When facts are trolling we have a real problem.
Edit: Here is an example from 2019 where I summarize the promises made in the 2018 State of Elyria. Look at each section. Fail after fail after fail. And the new State of Elyria's would just ignore the old promises and put new ones up. People just kept tossing money. To this day I really cannot comprehend it. https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478482/2018-state-of-elyria-retrospective/p1
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"Much good, very WOW"
Although...last year's "We are the storm" is a close second.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Welcome to the war, we've only begun, so
Pick up your weapon and face it
There's blood on the crown, go and take it
You get one shot to make it out alive, so
It's deep in your bones, go and take it
This is your moment, now is your time, so
Rise, rise
Make 'em remember you
Rise
Push through hell and
Rise, rise
They will remember you
Rise
Visions pray that one false step lead the end, so
It's deep in your blood, go and take it
This is your moment, take to the skies
Rise, rise
Make 'em remember you
Rise
Push through hell and
Rise, rise
They will remember you
Rise
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Well the Washington AG went after another crowdfunded project that didn't deliver on their promises and won. He not only went after the LLC, but also the owner of said LLC. The judgment included a $1,000 fine per complaint. We currently have 255 complaints filed against SBS, almost twice as many as Amazon and more than seven times as many as the third place complaints for the period of 3/25-4/11. The AG also got restitution for the 31 backers in that case. So he went after a crowdfund with only 31 complaints. I think we stand a pretty good chance here.
Well a judgment from the AG against him won't go away and all fees, restitution, and fines must be paid whether he currently has the assets to do so. He would be in financial ruin for the rest of his life. So move all the money you want, you still have to pay what is ordered if this goes to trial. If the typical $1,000 fine per complaint is filed against him if found guilty, that is currently $255,000....again this is if the AG takes the case and wins.
In a class action suit you are correct, but if the AG takes this to trial, he can in fact get blood from a turnip. The fines, restitution, and fees will not go away. I may not get a dime back because it is quite possible Jeromy will just refuse to pay and go to jail, but I am fine with that. I just want a strong message sent to others who think kickstarter and other crowdfunding avenues are just get rich quick schemes with no repercussions.
Jeromy's biggest mistake was doing this in Washington State. The Attorney General there comes down very hard on Crowdfunding which fails to deliver. He doesn't care about excuses, he cares that money was raised for a product and the company failed to hold up their end of the agreement. This all falls under the Consumer Protection Act, so Jeromy may just be screwed.