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OPINION: ESRB's 'Includes Random ltems' Label Solves Nothing

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    bonzoso21 said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    Vrika said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    With kids and parents, information is the key. Every parent has simple tools to control the digital content their kids have access to, and they have the responsibility to keep an eye on what their kids are doing. I don't mean to imply that's an easy thing to do, but no responsible parent should ever get blindsided by a $1000 Fortnite charge. 
    You've obviously never been parent of a teenager.
    Obviously, but I still think it's hard to find no fault with someone who buys a $300 device thinking it's a toy, saves their credit card information into it and connects it to the internet, and puts it in their kid's room without taking a few minutes to learn about modern parental controls or bothering to come up with a password their kid won't find out. 
    When I was 16 I had a job and my own money.  Old me could do this all by myself.

    You don't think allowing a kid to blow their money on something stupid and then be disappointed is a worthwhile lesson for a parent to teach? They can't just buy $1000 worth of Fortnite cosmetics with their part-time cash from mowing lawns or working at Wal-Mart...in-game transactions are dependent on a saved credit card or a gift-card balance. If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment. A 16-year old can't open a bank account without a parent, so the most they could blow at once is the amount of cash they had on hand during that trip to Best Buy. This is hardly the beginning of a tragic addiction story...it's the same "learn the value of a dollar" lesson that middle-class families have been dealing with for decades. 
    You seem to be missing the point.   Its a product sold to kids that kids can literally buy on their own.  It is rated T for 13+.

    The rating needs to change as there is gambling involved.

    Stop trying to deflect it to "bad parenting".


    IselinGdemamiSandmanjw

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    bonzoso21 said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    Vrika said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    With kids and parents, information is the key. Every parent has simple tools to control the digital content their kids have access to, and they have the responsibility to keep an eye on what their kids are doing. I don't mean to imply that's an easy thing to do, but no responsible parent should ever get blindsided by a $1000 Fortnite charge. 
    You've obviously never been parent of a teenager.
    Obviously, but I still think it's hard to find no fault with someone who buys a $300 device thinking it's a toy, saves their credit card information into it and connects it to the internet, and puts it in their kid's room without taking a few minutes to learn about modern parental controls or bothering to come up with a password their kid won't find out. 
    When I was 16 I had a job and my own money.  Old me could do this all by myself.

    You don't think allowing a kid to blow their money on something stupid and then be disappointed is a worthwhile lesson for a parent to teach? They can't just buy $1000 worth of Fortnite cosmetics with their part-time cash from mowing lawns or working at Wal-Mart...in-game transactions are dependent on a saved credit card or a gift-card balance. If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment. A 16-year old can't open a bank account without a parent, so the most they could blow at once is the amount of cash they had on hand during that trip to Best Buy. This is hardly the beginning of a tragic addiction story...it's the same "learn the value of a dollar" lesson that middle-class families have been dealing with for decades. 
    You seem to be missing the point.   Its a product sold to kids that kids can literally buy on their own.  It is rated T for 13+.

    The rating needs to change as there is gambling involved.

    Stop trying to deflect it to "bad parenting".


    Where's the guy who's always going on about not blaming the victim when you need him? :)

    Teen, adult, whatever... it's the ones using every psychological trick imaginable to extract the money that are 100% at fault. All these rationalizations about parenting people always trot out are totally beside the point.

    It's just plain, old fashioned sleazy salesmanship (or is conmanship a word?) I personally hate it in gaming period because it cheapens the game's atmosphere and makes it like a back alley 3-card monte game.

    I don't even need to go into whether it is or isn't gambling (although to me it definitely is) to not want this sleaze in a game I play.
    GdemamiSandmanjw
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • bonzoso21bonzoso21 Member UncommonPosts: 380
    bonzoso21 said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    Vrika said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    With kids and parents, information is the key. Every parent has simple tools to control the digital content their kids have access to, and they have the responsibility to keep an eye on what their kids are doing. I don't mean to imply that's an easy thing to do, but no responsible parent should ever get blindsided by a $1000 Fortnite charge. 
    You've obviously never been parent of a teenager.
    Obviously, but I still think it's hard to find no fault with someone who buys a $300 device thinking it's a toy, saves their credit card information into it and connects it to the internet, and puts it in their kid's room without taking a few minutes to learn about modern parental controls or bothering to come up with a password their kid won't find out. 
    When I was 16 I had a job and my own money.  Old me could do this all by myself.

    You don't think allowing a kid to blow their money on something stupid and then be disappointed is a worthwhile lesson for a parent to teach? They can't just buy $1000 worth of Fortnite cosmetics with their part-time cash from mowing lawns or working at Wal-Mart...in-game transactions are dependent on a saved credit card or a gift-card balance. If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment. A 16-year old can't open a bank account without a parent, so the most they could blow at once is the amount of cash they had on hand during that trip to Best Buy. This is hardly the beginning of a tragic addiction story...it's the same "learn the value of a dollar" lesson that middle-class families have been dealing with for decades. 
    You seem to be missing the point.   Its a product sold to kids that kids can literally buy on their own.  It is rated T for 13+.

    The rating needs to change as there is gambling involved.

    Stop trying to deflect it to "bad parenting".


    I was never arguing against the changing of the ESRB label or even ESRB ratings changes to games that include real-money gambling. I said as much in the first post I made in the thread. I can agree with that and still think parents bear some responsibility every time I read a story of a surprise $10,000 bill for in-app purchases. The original article calls for government regulation of subjective entertainment and the subsequent abolishment of real-money gambling in video games, which I think is a bad take. 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    bonzoso21 said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    Vrika said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    With kids and parents, information is the key. Every parent has simple tools to control the digital content their kids have access to, and they have the responsibility to keep an eye on what their kids are doing. I don't mean to imply that's an easy thing to do, but no responsible parent should ever get blindsided by a $1000 Fortnite charge. 
    You've obviously never been parent of a teenager.
    Obviously, but I still think it's hard to find no fault with someone who buys a $300 device thinking it's a toy, saves their credit card information into it and connects it to the internet, and puts it in their kid's room without taking a few minutes to learn about modern parental controls or bothering to come up with a password their kid won't find out. 
    When I was 16 I had a job and my own money.  Old me could do this all by myself.

    You don't think allowing a kid to blow their money on something stupid and then be disappointed is a worthwhile lesson for a parent to teach? They can't just buy $1000 worth of Fortnite cosmetics with their part-time cash from mowing lawns or working at Wal-Mart...in-game transactions are dependent on a saved credit card or a gift-card balance. If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment. A 16-year old can't open a bank account without a parent, so the most they could blow at once is the amount of cash they had on hand during that trip to Best Buy. This is hardly the beginning of a tragic addiction story...it's the same "learn the value of a dollar" lesson that middle-class families have been dealing with for decades. 
    You seem to be missing the point.   Its a product sold to kids that kids can literally buy on their own.  It is rated T for 13+.

    The rating needs to change as there is gambling involved.

    Stop trying to deflect it to "bad parenting".


    I was never arguing against the changing of the ESRB label or even ESRB ratings changes to games that include real-money gambling. I said as much in the first post I made in the thread. I can agree with that and still think parents bear some responsibility every time I read a story of a surprise $10,000 bill for in-app purchases. The original article calls for government regulation of subjective entertainment and the subsequent abolishment of real-money gambling in video games, which I think is a bad take. 
    The government regulates "subjective entertainment" when it's gambling.

    While I find it distasteful and distracting... I think people should be able to have it if they want provided that:

    1. It's kept out of the hand of children
    2. It's odds are posted/available (and thus subject to oversight)

    Just like other gambling.

    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • shadowafflesshadowaffles Member UncommonPosts: 8

    Gdemami said:


    ...any mentally healthy individual or non-idiot parent handles loot boxes just fine.

    Root cause is already sufficiently addressed - there are treatment programs for the former and hefty bills to pay for the laziness/irrisponsibility/stupidity of the latter.



    Let’s pretend that it is true and ignore how there are years of research on skinner box, loss aversion and other gambling related effects on the human mind showing that it does affect most people, some with very small effect and others with catastrophic results.

    Even then lootboxes ruins the gameplay of any game since the game must be built around the lootboxes to make them look attractive, that is to make the game more grind, unbalanced, unrewarding and frustrating. In the end, no matter how you try to frame it, lootboxes are bad deal for people trying to play games in every aspect.


    Acalex said:

    I think loot boxes are fine, as long as there isn't some gameplay advantage to buying them. If people want to blow their money on emotes and skins, that's on them.



    Instead of having a lootboxes system with "only skins", companies can easily make a store front where you pay X amount of Y premium currency and buy a skin.

    You know, like we have been trading for centuries.
    You don’t go to a bakery, give the store $5 and roll the wheel to see what type of food you get.
    The reason some companies don’t want that it’s because it’s a lot more profitable to abuse the human psyche to as many people as possible.

    By doing so companies aim to normalize the idea that gambling is fine and in the future it will get worse and worse.

    Want any examples? DLC’s, Pre-orders, Untested games being release.

    The gaming industry has never done anything to improve itself unless in massive danger.
    You give them a hand and they will take your arm.

    This problem needs to be solved by its root, and that is to regulate lootboxes, gachas and any other type of gambling like mechanics in games.

    Games can still have it, but not with the same age rating.
    GdemamiSandmanjw
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    You make no sense.
    Of course it makes no sense to you!

    Rational thinking is incomprehensible to you, afterall you did demonstrate that with your faulty analogy...again...
    SandmanjwSlapshot1188Ancient_Exile
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,989
    bonzoso21 said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    Vrika said:
    bonzoso21 said:
    With kids and parents, information is the key. Every parent has simple tools to control the digital content their kids have access to, and they have the responsibility to keep an eye on what their kids are doing. I don't mean to imply that's an easy thing to do, but no responsible parent should ever get blindsided by a $1000 Fortnite charge. 
    You've obviously never been parent of a teenager.
    Obviously, but I still think it's hard to find no fault with someone who buys a $300 device thinking it's a toy, saves their credit card information into it and connects it to the internet, and puts it in their kid's room without taking a few minutes to learn about modern parental controls or bothering to come up with a password their kid won't find out. 
    When I was 16 I had a job and my own money.  Old me could do this all by myself.

    You don't think allowing a kid to blow their money on something stupid and then be disappointed is a worthwhile lesson for a parent to teach? They can't just buy $1000 worth of Fortnite cosmetics with their part-time cash from mowing lawns or working at Wal-Mart...in-game transactions are dependent on a saved credit card or a gift-card balance. If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment. A 16-year old can't open a bank account without a parent, so the most they could blow at once is the amount of cash they had on hand during that trip to Best Buy. This is hardly the beginning of a tragic addiction story...it's the same "learn the value of a dollar" lesson that middle-class families have been dealing with for decades. 
    Where I'm from, a 15 years old is allowed to open bank account and control money earned from his work.

    If it's normal in USA for a minor to do a part-time job but be disallowed from spending money earned through his own work, then that's a much stricter restriction than an age limit on lootboxes would be.
    Gdemami
     
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Vrika said:
    Where I'm from, a 15 years old is allowed to open bank account and control money earned from his work.

    If it's normal in USA for a minor to do a part-time job but be disallowed from spending money earned through his own work, then that's a much stricter restriction than an age limit on lootboxes would be.
    You are right! That's a discrimination.

    Every minor making money should be allowed to spend their money on a casino, lootboxes or w/e.
    Ancient_Exile
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    Gdemami said:
    Vrika said:
    Where I'm from, a 15 years old is allowed to open bank account and control money earned from his work.

    If it's normal in USA for a minor to do a part-time job but be disallowed from spending money earned through his own work, then that's a much stricter restriction than an age limit on lootboxes would be.
    You are right! That's a discrimination.

    Every minor making money should be allowed to spend their money on a casino, lootboxes or w/e.
    Sure why not and add in the drugs and Juul cartridges too.
    Garrus Signature
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,989
    Gdemami said:
    Vrika said:
    Where I'm from, a 15 years old is allowed to open bank account and control money earned from his work.

    If it's normal in USA for a minor to do a part-time job but be disallowed from spending money earned through his own work, then that's a much stricter restriction than an age limit on lootboxes would be.
    You are right! That's a discrimination.

    Every minor making money should be allowed to spend their money on a casino, lootboxes or w/e.
    You misunderstood me.

    I support age limits for specific product.

    Bonzoso21 was talking about a limit where a minor who works part-time can't presumably spend some of his money at all before he's of age because he's prevented from accessing it. If that kind of system is normal in USA I'm against it. Limits for minors should be about limiting specific products, not about a general limit where you can't access the money you own.
     
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited April 2020
    Vrika said:
    You misunderstood me.
    ....no, you misunderstand me and bonzos21 - he never talked about minors not being able to spend their own money, on the contrary:

    "If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment."

    The limits on products are in place - you won't get access to credit nor loan product as a minor.
    Ancient_Exile
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    Gdemami said:
    Vrika said:
    Where I'm from, a 15 years old is allowed to open bank account and control money earned from his work.

    If it's normal in USA for a minor to do a part-time job but be disallowed from spending money earned through his own work, then that's a much stricter restriction than an age limit on lootboxes would be.
    You are right! That's a discrimination.

    Every minor making money should be allowed to spend their money on a casino, lootboxes or w/e.
    Depending on the parenting I think they should.

    When I was young I actually worked for my money. I did real chores around the house, not make my bed or help set the table. 

    I remember wanting to buy some sea monkeys. This was early 70's so one would find these advertisements in back of comics.

    My mother looked at me and asked "are you sure this is what you want to buy? These are nothing but brine shrimp; I had them as a kid. Not what the picture shows."


    Since I wanted to see for myself I bought them and 4 - 6 weeks later was the proud owner of a gold fish bowl filled with brine shrimp. No castles, no frolicking. Just shrimp.


    Now, my parents didn't buy what we asked for. If we wanted it we had to save up for it. Took me 3 months to save up for a Halloween mask.


    If I had a kid I'd let them spend that money on loot boxes, let them win or lose and then see how they felt afterwards. Especially because they WOULD be doing chores to ern that money. 


    No free rides here. 
    Gdemami
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

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    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,989
    Gdemami said:
    Vrika said:
    You misunderstood me.
    ....no, you misunderstand me and bonzos21 - he never talked about minors not being able to spend their own money, on the contrary:

    "If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment."

    The limits on products are in place - you won't get access to credit nor loan product as a minor.
    "A 16-year old can't open a bank account"
    "the most they could blow at once is the amount of cash they had on hand during that trip to Best Buy"

    Are minors in USA required to keep all their money in hand? To me it looks like he's talking about being unable to access money.

    But then again USA has different culture about payment methods. Where I live (Finland) it's norm that salary is paid to bank account, which then even a minor would access through online banking and debit card. At no point does that mean the minor would be able to take a loan, it's just accessing his own money.
     
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Gdemami said:
    Vrika said:
    You misunderstood me.
    ....no, you misunderstand me and bonzos21 - he never talked about minors not being able to spend their own money, on the contrary:

    "If my kid wanted to buy a $50 xbox giftcard with their cash and use it on microtransactions, I'd let them. If they got a bunch of crap and were pissed off, that's a pretty good teaching moment."

    The limits on products are in place - you won't get access to credit nor loan product as a minor.
    Utterly wrong and uninformed about how life actually works with kids.

    A kid can get a job at 15/16 I think even younger for certain jobs in certain parts of the country. It is normal at this time to get a bank account with a debit card.  But even without that, if they were paid in cash... it makes no difference.

    The logic fallacy above is the contention that "microtransactions" are the same as lootboxes.   It is the gambling aspect of the lootboxes which is abhorrent.  If a kid wants to spend $10 on a Sword of Doom for his game that's really the same as a kid wanting to buy a cool Spidey T-Shirt with his money.  OK.   But if a kid wants to spend money on lootboxes in the hope of hitting the jackpot and getting that Sword of Doom, that's the same as letting him sit down at a slot machine and pull the lever over and over.  And we, as a society have deemed that gambling is a vice that we do not expose kids to.

    The writing is on the wall for these "surprise mechanics" and it's only a matter of time before they are gone or restricted to 18+.    Change is coming and you are going to be on the wrong side of it.



    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited April 2020
    Vrika said:
    To me it looks like he's talking about being unable to access money.
    ...well, he doesn't and neither it is the point.
    Ancient_Exile
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Utterly wrong and uninformed about how life actually works with kids.
    ....says the lazy parent asking nanny state to do the parent instead of him.

    /yawn
    shadowafflesAncient_Exile
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936

    Utterly wrong and uninformed about how life actually works with kids.

    A kid can get a job at 15/16 I think even younger for certain jobs in certain parts of the country. It is normal at this time to get a bank account with a debit card.  But even without that, if they were paid in cash... it makes no difference.





    As a point of note, in the US, a minor cannot open a bank account without the parent being involved.

    A parent can also place controls on the card linked to that account.

    Now, whether or not a parent "should" depending on the age of the child, is another thing.


    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Sovrath said:

    Utterly wrong and uninformed about how life actually works with kids.

    A kid can get a job at 15/16 I think even younger for certain jobs in certain parts of the country. It is normal at this time to get a bank account with a debit card.  But even without that, if they were paid in cash... it makes no difference.





    As a point of note, in the US, a minor cannot open a bank account without the parent being involved.

    A parent can also place controls on the card linked to that account.

    Now, whether or not a parent "should" depending on the age of the child, is another thing.


    Yes my kids have accounts.  The point was made to the misinformed LOL guy who said you can’t get access to a card as a minor.  Yes you can and you can also walk into a Walmart and buy one for cash.   But that is a red herring.  The issue is not the payment methods.  The issue is marketing gambling to children.  As shown, children (13+) do have access to payment methods.

    These should not be marketed or sold to children.  Just like they can’t walk into a liquor store or casino.

    This is quite different from just micro transactions which may be distasteful but are just straight up sales. Lootboxes are gambling and thus have no place with kids.


    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    edited April 2020

    Gdemami said:
    Utterly wrong and uninformed about how life actually works with kids.
    ....says the lazy parent asking nanny state to do the parent instead of him.

    /yawn
    Your ignorance on the subject speaks volumes. 
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

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