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Mike Morhaime Talks About The Declining Popularity Of MMOs

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    edited April 2020
    klash2def said:
    *Drinks Water*

    As long as WoW, ESO, and FFXIV are around I don't think the genre will ever really die. I mean you can clearly see the influence of Standard MMORPG on popular games (Division, Destiny, RDO, GTAO, Warframe, etc)  right now. So for it to be dead, it would mean that there is none of that anywhere, no influence, no games.. nothing. That's dead to me. Those 3 main MMOs would have to shut down to even start the process of it fully dying. 

    I think most of us agree with that.

    But!



    I keep seeing this "we are waiting for the next big thing" conversation

    I want to touch on that here. I don't think there is a Next Big Thing for MMORPGs because MMORPGs don't offer anything novel anymore.



    When I was a teenager in the early 2000s it was novel to play online games with people from other countries. It was mindblowing even. I think the first MMORPG I played was Runescape and I quickly wanted more of it, I moved to EQ, Anarchy Online, and Star Wars Galaxies before finally jumping into WoW. That was a different time socially. We didn't even have WiFi it was all dial-up! No social media.. nothing. Just email, message boards, search engines, and MMOs. haha, It was really amazing in 2001 to load into a world with other people from all over the world. MMOs had that entire online interaction experience to itself.

    That's done now. You don't need to be in an MMORPG to interact online with people. Everything is so connected you can literally press a button and have breakfast, lunch, or dinner with someone in Korea and London at the same time while streaming a GoT marathon. All of you watching the same exact scenes.  Being connected is not novel anymore. Massive worlds are not novel anymore either... I think almost all recent single-player RPG games proved that. The Witcher 3, Skyrim, and Red Dead 2 come to mind immediately. 

    Today I have a 9 and 12-year-old. They have access to the world in their pockets. They were born with it so to them it's not novel to play online with other people. It's normal. I don't think they even own any offline games. Both play Fortnite. Minecraft. Warframe. Destiny and Division. I've tried to get the 12-year-old to play ESO, he has zero interest in it. He is excited about Cyberpunk2077 though. All of their friends play the same types of games. They had a whole virtual party for The Travis Scott event (popular rapper/cool event btw) on Fortnight and they really had a blast. I watched them. They were making moments for themselves. The way I see it, this is their childhood, not mine. It reminded me of when my friends and I used to hook up multiple XB and have LAN parties playing Halo. LOL everyone would tote their TV's to my house on bikes.. smh this was Before the Xbox Live days. Kids on Bikes! You hardly see that anymore. 





    Okay nostalgia aside, for us slightly older folk (and I'm not as old as some of you here) but for us to bitch about getting our childhood back is unfair in many ways to the new generation. Let them have their things, as we already had our time. We cant expect MMORPGs to come back or have some "Next Big Thing" eureka moment. Things don't work like that. They only evolve. As I've said so many times around here, the genre has already evolved past that time not only that but so did the rest of the world.

    People have just moved on and that's okay. 

    Nobody is saying you can't have those style games because they are out there, they just aren't as popular as they once were and probably never will be again. Mainly because they are set up to be time sinks and that is against everything this generation is about.

    So you can have your emulators and your "Classics" just don't expect the WORLD to subscribe to it.  People will check it out but retention will be low as we saw with Blizzards WoW classic project. Less than a year and people are complaining about empty zones and requesting features that are in the Retail Version lol... So yea the novelty wore off quickly I'd say. It was a commercial success though and that's all that matters to Blizzard. It doesn't prove that The MMORPG of Yore is making a comeback.

    I promise you It's not. 

    Fortnite has 250 Million people playing... ( holy shit. )

    Minecraft has 112 Million...

    Warframe has 50 Million...

    League of Legends has 33 Million...

    FFXIV has 18 Million...

    ESO has 15 Million... 

    WoW at its peak had 12 Million.. 12 million. let that sink in. 

    That 12 seems like nothing next to the games of this generation. The shining staple of the MMORPG genre.. the King of the Genre.. never reached the popularity that these games have. Not even close. It felt big because at the time it kinda was, but if WoW came out today instead of the time it did, also consider it wouldn't be one of the first MMOs but A NEW one based on a very OLD RTS game...take away the ADVANTAGE of baby's first internet experiences..  it would have fewer numbers than ESO. Less than 6 Million. There are just too many options now.

    It would still be a success I think, just not a large one. A more moderate success because AGAIN there are people who LOVE that style of game. Mostly older people, but still they are out there. 

    As I say often, most of the developers today are in my age group. Millennials who grew up with dial-up MMORPGs but we also are young enough to hang with the young people who grew up on iPhone games. We get all of it and we are trying to cater to all as much as possible but the reality is, the market is always going to lean towards what the kids want because they are the driving factor even more so today with YouTube reviews and such on what games are successful or not. 

    MMORPGs are not coming back and I say this a lot... find some joy in the new/current things out there or go watch a movie. Bitchin about bringing back that era isn't going to bring it back. It's not for lack of trying either.. every time some developer tries to bring that style back it never works. How come you "Old School" people arent playing f2p Legends of Aria? That exactly what you guys always ask for, it's a UO style game with more features, and it's free but the game is struggling..it only has 200-300 people playing. 

    There is no next big thing for MMORPGs. That's okay. It was a fun ride, the games are niche again and fans of the genre should be happy about that because maybe you get some innovation out of that which could make for some cool games. NO need to chase Fortnite, the popularity may never get there and that's a result of time, technology, and society changes but the idea that it's going back niche may be the best thing that's happened to the MMORPG in a long time.







    I have to question your numbers.
    You are saying that FFXIV has surpassed WoW at its peak?
    As much as I like FFXIV, I don't think that's happened.

    Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But I'm just sayin......
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 3,203
    Oh Mike! Look what they have done to your Blizzard! It's a messy Blizzard now. Please start another company with the same principals which made Blizzard the best....back in the days!

    Gdemami

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited April 2020
     

    Fortnite has 250 Million people playing... ( holy shit. )

    Minecraft has 112 Million...

    Warframe has 50 Million...

    League of Legends has 33 Million...

    FFXIV has 18 Million...

    ESO has 15 Million... 

    WoW at its peak had 12 Million.. 12 million. let that sink in. 

    That 12 seems like nothing next to the games of this generation. The shining staple of the MMORPG genre.. the King of the Genre.. never reached the popularity that these games have. Not even close. It felt big because at the time it kinda was, but if WoW came out today instead of the time it did, also consider it wouldn't be one of the first MMOs but A NEW one based on a very OLD RTS game...take away the ADVANTAGE of baby's first internet experiences..  it would have fewer numbers than ESO. Less than 6 Million. There are just too many options now.




    I have to question your numbers.
    You are saying that FFXIV has surpassed WoW at its peak?
    As much as I like FFXIV, I don't think that's happened.

    Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But I'm just sayin......
    They're different numbers reporting different things.

    I don't know about FFXIV but I do know that ESO reports total number of accounts created in its whole lifespan to date which is also what Fortnite and others report.

    When WOW used to report numbers what they reported was active subscriptions during the reporting time period. If they reported total number of WOW accounts ever created the number would be much, much higher than 12 mil.

    So the comparison is not apples to apples.

    Edit: found an article from 2014 that said the number of WOW accounts created up to that date was 100 million. Likely much higher than that by now.

    https://www.engadget.com/2014-01-28-100-000-000-world-of-warcraft-accounts-infographic.html

    So apples to apples WOW and Fortnite are in the same ballpark.
    klash2defGdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

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  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    edited April 2020
    I have to question your numbers.
    You are saying that FFXIV has surpassed WoW at its peak?
    As much as I like FFXIV, I don't think that's happened.

    Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But I'm just sayin......
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9bud5a/final_fantasy_xiv_celebrates_more_than_14_million/

    1 year ago they passed WoW at its peak, announced 14M a year ago, That includes trial accounts and all but all companies count ALL accounts so fair game. It's still an impressive number considering it's still a sub based game


    https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-xiv/ffxiv-player-count

    "During a developer livestream in May 2019, director Naoki Yoshida said the game had reached 16 million players."

    Then in December SQUARE ENIX announced they had 18M so they got some growth due to the Shadowbringers xpac which is a really good expansion btw. I'm not surprised they announced it though as they usually announce any major success because they are a very proud studio. I believe they also announced the FF7R numbers also. But yea... definitely passed peak WoW. I'm not surprised.

    You can probably google the announcement but it was in gaming news when it happened. 

    https://screenrant.com/ffxiv-final-fantasy-player-count-future-mmorpg-gaming/
    Nepheth
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    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear. 


  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Maybe because the biggest game studios/developers are not trying to innovate and make the highest quality MMORPGs they can anymore?  Maybe because they're just trying to make the most amount of money they can in the shortest amount of time possible?  Maybe because they're short-sighted and shooting themselves in the foot?

    I can't say there aren't still dreamers with big ideas in the industry, but it could be that such people are overruled by those that hold the purse strings.
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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited April 2020
    klash2def said:
    I have to question your numbers.
    You are saying that FFXIV has surpassed WoW at its peak?
    As much as I like FFXIV, I don't think that's happened.

    Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But I'm just sayin......
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9bud5a/final_fantasy_xiv_celebrates_more_than_14_million/

    1 year ago they passed WoW at its peak, announced 14M a year ago, That includes trial accounts and all but all companies count ALL accounts so fair game. It's still an impressive number considering it's still a sub based game


    https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-xiv/ffxiv-player-count

    "During a developer livestream in May 2019, director Naoki Yoshida said the game had reached 16 million players."

    Then in December SQUARE ENIX announced they had 18M so they got some growth due to the Shadowbringers xpac which is a really good expansion btw. I'm not surprised they announced it though as they usually announce any major success because they are a very proud studio. I believe they also announced the FF7R numbers also. But yea... definitely passed peak WoW. I'm not surprised.

    You can probably google the announcement but it was in gaming news when it happened. 

    https://screenrant.com/ffxiv-final-fantasy-player-count-future-mmorpg-gaming/
    From your PC Gamer link:

    Square Enix announced the 18 million figure today alongside the details of FFXIV patch 5.2. That’s “registered players worldwide,” so it certainly includes folks who’ve simply signed up for a free trial – not just fully-paid premium players.

    So they report registrations same as ESO not active subs like WOW used to report. They both have a long, long way to go before they are even remotely in the WOW category.

    The impressive thing about Fortnite is 250 mil in a fraction of the time it took WOW to get its humongous number of registrations. Although Fornite numbers are inflated by the fact that it's free to DL and register and only a portion of WOW's numbers were free trial accounts.
    klash2defKyleran
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    klash2def said:
    *Drinks Water*


    WoW at its peak had 12 Million.. 12 million. let that sink in. 

    That 12 seems like nothing next to the games of this generation. The shining staple of the MMORPG genre.. the King of the Genre.. never reached the popularity that these games have. Not even close. It felt big because at the time it kinda was, but if WoW came out today instead of the time it did, also consider it wouldn't be one of the first MMOs but A NEW one based on a very OLD RTS game...take away the ADVANTAGE of baby's first internet experiences..  it would have fewer numbers than ESO. Less than 6 Million. There are just too many options now.
    I would offer that the other games built off of World of Warcraft's shoulders. You say that if it came out now it would never have been as big. I would offer that if it never came out you wouldn't have an Elder Scrolls Online. The others aren't mmorpg's except for Final Fantasy 14 and the Asian Market is sort of its own thing.


    klash2def
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  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    @Iselin yea I've seen that infograph before it's from 2014 I would argue that since yea its talking about all accounts ever made since 2003? 4? when the game came out... It's like saying there are more Ford Mustangs since inception than there are Tesla Cybertrucks. Ford has been in the market a lot longer than Tesla.

    Only they can even make a claim like that. These Other games haven't been around for closing in on 20 years but I'm guessing when they do they will have bigger numbers than WoW lifetime also. 


    I found this information on the 12Million peak thing from a bbc article interesting. August 2019 is the date of the article. So it's recent and it's after wow said they weren't releasing any information about numbers anymore. 

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49448935
    "Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."


    "The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."



     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear. 


  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    Sovrath said:
    klash2def said:
    *Drinks Water*


    WoW at its peak had 12 Million.. 12 million. let that sink in. 

    That 12 seems like nothing next to the games of this generation. The shining staple of the MMORPG genre.. the King of the Genre.. never reached the popularity that these games have. Not even close. It felt big because at the time it kinda was, but if WoW came out today instead of the time it did, also consider it wouldn't be one of the first MMOs but A NEW one based on a very OLD RTS game...take away the ADVANTAGE of baby's first internet experiences..  it would have fewer numbers than ESO. Less than 6 Million. There are just too many options now.
    I would offer that the other games built off of World of Warcraft's shoulders. You say that if it came out now it would never have been as big. I would offer that if it never came out you wouldn't have an Elder Scrolls Online. The others aren't mmorpg's except for Final Fantasy 14 and the Asian Market is sort of its own thing.


    I agree with this also. I think both points are valid. 
    "Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."


    "The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."



     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear. 


  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    Iselin said:
    klash2def said:
    I have to question your numbers.
    You are saying that FFXIV has surpassed WoW at its peak?
    As much as I like FFXIV, I don't think that's happened.

    Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But I'm just sayin......
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9bud5a/final_fantasy_xiv_celebrates_more_than_14_million/

    1 year ago they passed WoW at its peak, announced 14M a year ago, That includes trial accounts and all but all companies count ALL accounts so fair game. It's still an impressive number considering it's still a sub based game


    https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-xiv/ffxiv-player-count

    "During a developer livestream in May 2019, director Naoki Yoshida said the game had reached 16 million players."

    Then in December SQUARE ENIX announced they had 18M so they got some growth due to the Shadowbringers xpac which is a really good expansion btw. I'm not surprised they announced it though as they usually announce any major success because they are a very proud studio. I believe they also announced the FF7R numbers also. But yea... definitely passed peak WoW. I'm not surprised.

    You can probably google the announcement but it was in gaming news when it happened. 

    https://screenrant.com/ffxiv-final-fantasy-player-count-future-mmorpg-gaming/
    From your PC Gamer link:

    Square Enix announced the 18 million figure today alongside the details of FFXIV patch 5.2. That’s “registered players worldwide,” so it certainly includes folks who’ve simply signed up for a free trial – not just fully-paid premium players.

    So they report registrations same as ESO not active subs like WOW used to report. They both have a long, long way to go before they are even remotely in the WOW category.

    The impressive thing about Fortnite is 250 mil in a fraction of the time it took WOW to get its humongous number of registrations. Although Fornite numbers are inflated by the fact that it's free to DL and register and only a portion of WOW's numbers were free trial accounts.
    Yea I know but so did wow when they said that 12M thing, that was the last number we heard from them in an official capacity. That's why I said they all report like that
    "Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."


    "The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."



     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear. 


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    klash2def said:
    @Iselin yea I've seen that infograph before it's from 2014 I would argue that since yea its talking about all accounts ever made since 2003? 4? when the game came out... It's like saying there are more Ford Mustangs since inception than there are Tesla Cybertrucks. Ford has been in the market a lot longer than Tesla.

    Only they can even make a claim like that. These Other games haven't been around for closing in on 20 years but I'm guessing when they do they will have bigger numbers than WoW lifetime also. 


    I found this information on the 12Million peak thing from a bbc article interesting. August 2019 is the date of the article. So it's recent and it's after wow said they weren't releasing any information about numbers anymore. 

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49448935
    Yeah that's referring back in time to WOW's peak of 12 million subs back in 2012: 

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2010/10/07/world-of-warcraft-reaches-12-million-subscribers

    klash2def
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    edited April 2020
    Iselin said:
    klash2def said:
    @Iselin yea I've seen that infograph before it's from 2014 I would argue that since yea its talking about all accounts ever made since 2003? 4? when the game came out... It's like saying there are more Ford Mustangs since inception than there are Tesla Cybertrucks. Ford has been in the market a lot longer than Tesla.

    Only they can even make a claim like that. These Other games haven't been around for closing in on 20 years but I'm guessing when they do they will have bigger numbers than WoW lifetime also. 


    I found this information on the 12Million peak thing from a bbc article interesting. August 2019 is the date of the article. So it's recent and it's after wow said they weren't releasing any information about numbers anymore. 

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49448935
    Yeah that's referring back in time to WOW's peak of 12 million subs back in 2012: 

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2010/10/07/world-of-warcraft-reaches-12-million-subscribers

    yea but is there any other number? That seems to be the number last reported and if they have been in a decline over the years its safe to think it's not higher than 12m currently.. I don't know the numbers exactly but adding classic, free trial, etc still doesn't put it past any of those games numbers-wise I'm thinking. 

    edit: the fact that this number hasn't been updated officially by blizzard sort of confirms that it's not over 12m currently... I feel like they would beat their chests about it if it were over 12m they wouldn't let BBC or IGN just report something super inaccurate unless the inaccuracy keeps them in the game if you know what I mean. 

    That's my opinion though. 
    "Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."


    "The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."



     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear. 


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    klash2def said:
    Iselin said:
    klash2def said:
    @Iselin yea I've seen that infograph before it's from 2014 I would argue that since yea its talking about all accounts ever made since 2003? 4? when the game came out... It's like saying there are more Ford Mustangs since inception than there are Tesla Cybertrucks. Ford has been in the market a lot longer than Tesla.

    Only they can even make a claim like that. These Other games haven't been around for closing in on 20 years but I'm guessing when they do they will have bigger numbers than WoW lifetime also. 


    I found this information on the 12Million peak thing from a bbc article interesting. August 2019 is the date of the article. So it's recent and it's after wow said they weren't releasing any information about numbers anymore. 

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49448935
    Yeah that's referring back in time to WOW's peak of 12 million subs back in 2012: 

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2010/10/07/world-of-warcraft-reaches-12-million-subscribers

    yea but is there any other number? That seems to be the number last reported and if they have been in a decline over the years its safe to think it's not higher than 12m currently.. I don't know the numbers exactly but adding classic, free trial, etc still doesn't put it past any of those games numbers-wise I'm thinking. 

    edit: the fact that this number hasn't been updated officially by blizzard sort of confirms that it's not over 12m currently... I feel like they would beat their chests about it if it were over 12m they wouldn't let BBC or IGN just report something super inaccurate unless the inaccuracy keeps them in the game if you know what I mean. 

    That's my opinion though. 
    No the number is right. I'm sure. 12 million active subscriptions was in fact their peak. But registered accounts like ESO and FFXIV report? That was 100 mil in 2014 and neither ESO nor FFXIV have reached 20 yet.

    You also just can't draw many conclusions from comparing registered accounts in a F2P game like Fortnite vs. those in a B2P game where most registrations happened after paying $50 or whatever WOW used to be back in the day.

    Fortnite, LOL and other new games have indeed achieved impressive registered user numbers in much shorter periods of time than WOW did. But WOW's numbers are also pretty impressive considering it launched and acquired those numbers long before online gaming was even 1/10th as popular as it is today.

    Nothing wrong with the major points in your Ted talk. The numbers are a bit wonky though.

    klash2def
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,058
    edited April 2020
    I don't get this whole declining notion...I log onto FFXIV it's packed and there are queues, I log onto Neverwinter it's packed, I log onto ESO it's a Ghost Town but that's Zo$ fault, I log onto GW2 it;s packed.

    I think MMO's are doing ok personally
    It's the quality of the gamers which declined...hence the rise in trash like Fortnite.

     :D 


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  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Member RarePosts: 2,178
    BR are so last year. Everyone is tcg'ing now.

    anyhow mmo's decline because of dudes like this. They helped standardize a very linear money treadmill. The mmo industry is the one of the fastest growing and then declining genres of all time imo.


    Ir's even more fun watching the sites that parasited these games that destroyed the genres momentum result to posting about stadia releases.


    Most just want to watch gaming nowadays period. That's exactly why it seems like more viewers are out there than gamers.


    Capitalism works. You all destroyed your own market with lack of innovation or stifling it. Sucks to be you.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427
    "One of the things I was amazed about was the initial popularity of that game...My takeaway from that was that World of Warcraft was the most social of all of our games to that point, because you had groups of people experiencing that together.

    ...but maybe there are other types of games that are able to capture the social experience even more. I would also just observe that as World of Warcraft evolved over the years, it actually kind of became less social, because in an effort to achieve more accessibility, we removed some o the reasons why you need to play with the same group of people over and over."

    Less social equals less popularity, the ever increasing solo design of MMORPG's while Co-Op/team play has become common place in other genres has been the biggest factor in their decline.
    Kyleran
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 2020
    Scot said:
    "One of the things I was amazed about was the initial popularity of that game...My takeaway from that was that World of Warcraft was the most social of all of our games to that point, because you had groups of people experiencing that together.

    ...but maybe there are other types of games that are able to capture the social experience even more. I would also just observe that as World of Warcraft evolved over the years, it actually kind of became less social, because in an effort to achieve more accessibility, we removed some o the reasons why you need to play with the same group of people over and over."

    Less social equals less popularity, the ever increasing solo design of MMORPG's while Co-Op/team play has become common place in other genres has been the biggest factor in their decline.

    The ability for players to compete in games thereby increases the importance of cooperation.  But most MMORPGs have drastically reduced the ability for players to compete in MMORPGs or removed it altogether.  I understand though.  A lot of players didn't like the forms of competition present in many of the older MMORPGs because not enough effort was put into making the competition fair. 

    (Note:  Fair Competition does not equal making all classes balanced.  Which is practically impossible due to the number of skills classes posses and the different combinations of skills possible in MMORPGs.)
    ScotKyleran
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


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  • timtracktimtrack Member UncommonPosts: 541
    Company: Makes ice cream of poop.
    Consumer: This is poop.
    Company: People don't like ice cream anymore.
    Ancient_ExiledeniterIselinKyleranChildoftheShadows
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    timtrack said:
    Company: Makes ice cream of poop.
    Consumer: This is poop.
    Company: People don't like ice cream anymore.


    NildenKyleran
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


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  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 2020

    People generally like to be social, it's true.  They also like to feel special and unique.  Or at the very least they like to feel important, needed, necessary, wanted, or even just useful.  Feeling like they're good at something also helps.  But making everything easy doesn't help in that respect.  It doesn't feel good to accomplish something if it's too easy.  People need to be able to fail, get back up, keep trying, improve, adapt, and overcome. 

    Also, some people just shouldn't be playing rpgs or mmorpgs.  They are not for everyone.  People that don't like to think or read shouldn't be playing them.  People that can't learn to like to think or read shouldn't be playing them.   

    EDIT:  Personally, I believe players should be able to make a difference in MMORPGs.  And that is what is largely lacking from the vast majority of these kinds of games.  No matter what players choose, no matter what they do, they have very little to no lasting effect on the game world.  For good or evil, for better or worse.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427
    edited April 2020
    Scot said:
    "One of the things I was amazed about was the initial popularity of that game...My takeaway from that was that World of Warcraft was the most social of all of our games to that point, because you had groups of people experiencing that together.

    ...but maybe there are other types of games that are able to capture the social experience even more. I would also just observe that as World of Warcraft evolved over the years, it actually kind of became less social, because in an effort to achieve more accessibility, we removed some o the reasons why you need to play with the same group of people over and over."

    Less social equals less popularity, the ever increasing solo design of MMORPG's while Co-Op/team play has become common place in other genres has been the biggest factor in their decline.

    The ability for players to compete in games thereby increases the importance of cooperation.  But most MMORPGs have drastically reduced the ability for players to compete in MMORPGs or removed it altogether.  I understand though.  A lot of players didn't like the forms of competition present in many of the older MMORPGs because not enough effort was put into making the competition fair. 

    (Note:  Fair Competition does not equal making all classes balanced.  Which is practically impossible due to the number of skills classes posses and the different combinations of skills possible in MMORPGs.)
    I agree, I should add to my first post that when MMO's first started to go down the solo gameplay route it led to a boom in player numbers. But long term it has led to a decline, so much was removed not just what gave us group and social; while so many solo player games became multiplayer and co-op became a phenomenon. The curious thing is that MMOs are still being released using the solo first and foremost design and then they scratch their heads when the new MMO cannot compete for the players of co-op and team games.
    Ancient_ExiledeniterAlomarIselinKyleran
  • Skaar.AionSkaar.Aion Member UncommonPosts: 16
    edited April 2020
    Yea no...the genre is far from dead...

    It's just that no GOOD, modern mmo has come out in the past few years. The modern MMO's that were released are all cash-grabs, that are build around their cash-shop...

    Like others have said: Once we get a modern MMO, that harkens back to the essence of what EQ / WoW did well in the first place without being more concerned about it's cash-shop, than the game itself and while still being accessible to people who don't have as much time anymore, people will flock to it...

    I mean, that's literally the whole reason, why every newly released MMO nowadays is hyped as much as it is and why the servers are always full at first, even is there are tooooons of red flags (see: Blessed Online). It's because people hold out hope for a worthy successor to the genre.
    Alomar
  • TalmienTalmien Member UncommonPosts: 190
    I don't think the popularity of traditional MMOs has declined at all for players, its still much higher than even when WoW classic released.

    However, for developers, the popularity of developing a traditional MMO certainly has declined, because there are much easier and quicker games styles to produce that can turn a larger profit.
    SovrathKyleranCalerxesScot
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    People are playing DDO a lot too . Older games are getting attention. I don't see the genre in decline what I see is lack of good new games. The old games are still doing fine and they are gaining players during this lockdown.
    Kyleran

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