Aggro, group tactics, and such

Renian

Every graphical MMO I've played (with the exception of EVE) has had the same kind of group tactic: You got your tank, your healer, perhaps some dude on crowd control, and a bunch of people on DPS. Using skills and such, you can essentially have your tank soak up damage while the mob just sits there and swings at your tank mindlessly.

That is not how real combat works.

HJ should have a combat system where that doesn't happen...it can't happen. I want to see it so if two people engage the critter, the critter moves into a position where it can attack both of the players at the same time. For example, if the would-be tank and a rogue are standing next to each other and attacking the critter, and the critter has some sort of two-handed weapon, it should attempt to cleave through the tank and right into the rogue in one huge swoop. If it has one weapon, it should parry the would-be tank's attack and then kick the rogue or something in the same movement.

When it comes to aggro, I'd like to see HJ not do what all the games have done, having an amount of hate and all. What I'd like to see is when something threating happens to the mob, the mob responds. For example, if a smart critter hears a mage chanting some powerful spell, it's not going to sit there and mindlessly attack your tank. It's going to disengange the tank, run up to the mage, and attempt to interrupt it. Taking a few hits from the warrior isn't as bad as your brain exploding.

When something really harmful happens to the critter, it should really be pissed. For example, if a rogue shoves a dagger into a mob's spine, the mob isn't going to just shrug and keep attacking the tank. The mob is going to be really pissed off at the rogue and start just smacking it until it dies. If the tank also happens to be rogue and it also stabs the mob in the spine, it gets the idea and gets into a position where it can't be backstabbed by either of them.

People aren't blind, so critters shouldn't be either. If they see someone has casted a spell on their buddies or backstabbed them or killed them, it should learn the capibilities of that person and react accordingly. For example, the critters won't let their back show to the backstabber. They'll also beat on the mage to interrupt their spells.

These things would really add to the tactical aspect of HJ.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Dev postings (please)?

Kuzzle

   I agree with alot of the things you said. Though, I usually solo, so I've not had alot of experience with the current system. Actually, I've only grouped a couple of times.  Anyway, that sounds like it would help keep things more even.

bokonon

Completely agree, especially with the agro bit. Just think of pen and paper D&D games, the mage has to put up with being the target as soon as he unleashes his spells (if not sooner). The PC compensates by standing way to the back (an arbitrary position on MMOs where hate is all that reflects who targets what) and the PC risks dying if his friends can't kill off the baddies before they reach him (or the baddies move out of the mage's line of fire).

I hate hate, its the second stupidest thing in MMOs that robs them of tactics and makes PvP so hard to balance (since the mages HP and spells are primarily always based off of being verses mobs). I would love to see a game where "taunt" and "detaunt" is removed from the game and burned. Taunt should be the warrior smashing the orc in the face with a twohanded sword as the orc brushes by him to get to the mage.

The thing I hate the most though is agro radius, please please please God get rid of agro radius in this game. Let all creatures within Line of Sight attack me and balance it accordingly. Nothing is more stupid than my group in WoW walking through Scarlet Monestary, picking off people in the hallway while 10ft down another group is chatting calmly. COMPLETELY destroys the experience. Make the monster's LOS usually equal the players, baring things like them being in the dark with a camp fire, elves/lizard people having low light vision...wouldn't it be neat to actually be ambushed from afar and having the monsters shooting at you from somewhere ahead of you...you blindly charging forward only to fall in a pit?

Oh and make combat more than chopping down a 3000 hitpoint monster, combat should be swift, brutal and lethal for all parties involved. Chopping down an oak tree as a "elite boss" who does a set of abilties over and over is zzzz...

z80paranoia

I agree with all said.
At the same time tanks or anyone wanting to tank should have a blocking stance move that forces mobs to walk aroud them or knock them down to get to said magician. Tanking players should also have a grab or tripping move to keep a mob in place for a bit longer.

I don't like aggro radius either. Well, I don't like it the way it's currently being used. Line of sight is great but not all creatures are deaf. And the Radius model is good for simulating a mobs hearing ability.
I think it should work something like this:

hearing radius: causes suspicion and looking around but not hate.
line of sight: can cause hate depending on what is seen.

at that point all the stuff that you all have described can go into effect.
just my 2 cents.

Renian

Speaking of aggro, I think FFXI did aggro pretty well...or at least from what I've heard. Mobs aggro in different fashions; sight, hearing, and even smell! Fancy.

Also, aggro shouldn't be the mob going, "OMG I SEE YOU NOW YOU DIE LOL!" The mob should use tactics when aggroed. For example, if they have friends around, they should call for assistance or blow a horn or something. You can stop them from doing this if you kill them quickly. If a rogue is spotted, for example, but he's close to the mob, he should be able to slit the mob's throat quickly to shut him up, or an archer should be able to send an arrow to the mob's eye, etc.

They also shouldn't run at you all the time. They should probably bust out with a bow and arrow or magic and attempt to evade any long range attacks you might try and use against them, and when you get pretty close, whip out their melee weapon and start smacking you. Basically, range should determine tactics.

EDIT (8/23/05): In the Q&A, they just said that the enemy AI will change at the drop of a hat. Does this mean that I might get what I'm asking for? O.o

Nalvest

A truly intelligent AI alone could separate this game from any other.  MOBs that actually get out of the way of attacks or go for reinforcements are an interesting idea. 

I've seen it in other games, I was just playing Dungeon Siege 2 and I noticed that sometimes some MOBs will run away when they know they are going to lose and go for other MOBs to help them.  Now frequently they are stupid and just die, but it's interesting to see the concept in there at all.

I truly hope we do get this type of thing.