New Raph Koster game tries to please everyone?

MightyUnclean

Ut oh, here we go again:  "Koster also seeks to make the game someplace where explorers, player killers, socializers, and killers can co-exist or even find some interdependencies."

If they plan to put PK directly in the mix with everyone else, it will be a mess, as always.  Hopefully, PvP will be completely optional.


https://massivelyop.com/2020/06/14/raph-koster-touches-on-the-technology-and-community-that-will-bring-playable-worlds-mmo-to-life/#comments

Kyleran

Goals are good, maybe in 10 yrs we'll see how it all turns out.

Amathe

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

MightyUnclean

Amathe said:

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.

bcbully

Lmafo go go Ralph!

Let them eat cake  eeer SoL Pantheon for the anti-pvprs

Wizardry

There was never a reason his name gave me any excitement about a video game.If there was,i would actually know what game he was involved with and i don't.
So i looked SWG...ummm there is a reason i didn't have any interest to play that game.

I am not sure if many of these developers understand game design or just good at designing theories or are bad at it but believe some success in the box office equates to being good at your job.

The funny thing about success is you could have two identical products,the second actually being of slightly better material/grade and the first is still the more popular.There is seldom a lot of sense from anything in gaming.

When i look at games or try to rate them,the first thing i do is think about the design "does it  work" and how much effort went into the systems.Those are my two main criteria then of course everything else comes after that,like graphics,lighting etc etc.

Long story short,i am not the least surprised this Kosterdude doesn't understand pvp with pve DOES NOT work because i am seeing the same mistake over and over.Most of the industry has people that are better at selling a product,monetising a product and the business side of the operation than the yare about game play.

Wizardry

I can point to a game i enjoy ATLAS,even after 95% of the players left,the dev team is STILL trying to push their agenda,STILL believe their ideas are correct ..lol.

Most of us continue to play on private servers or our own server,we cannot play what the devs are selling,they truly haven't a clue.

There could be 1 player left and they would still try and push their agenda.They ruined 90% of the game trying to cater to pvp,we don't like pets,they ruin pvp,we don't like large  cannons on ships,it is too easy in pvp,cry cry ,nerf nerf,game ruined.Thank god we can change the settings and make the game we want to play and ignore the developers stupidity.

Koster is the type of developer i would ignore,i would not play his game.IMO the main reason devs keep aiming for pvp is it facilitates a cash shop where as a pve game does not.

Aethaeryn

Wizardry said:

There was never a reason his name gave me any excitement about a video game.If there was,i would actually know what game he was involved with and i don't.
So i looked SWG...ummm there is a reason i didn't have any interest to play that game.

He was pretty important in developing systems that people really liked.

Ultima Online (lead designer)
EverQuest 2 (creative director)
SWG (creative director)

He is a 'thinker' and really has had some great points and discussions on how players interact with systems, worlds and each other.

Kyleran

For anyone who has been living under a rock the past 20 years.

He even visits this site from time to time.

He definitely knows a thing or three about game design.

”Raph Koster is a veteran game designer who has been professionally credited in almost every area of the game industry. He's been the lead designer and director of massive titles such as Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies; and he's contributed writing, art, soundtrack music, and programming to many more titles ranging from Facebook games to single-player titles for handheld consoles.

Koster is widely recognized as one of the world's top thinkers about game design, and is an in-demand speaker at conferences all over the world. In 2012, he was named an Online Game Legend at the Game Developers Conference Online. Visit his blog at www.raphkoster.com.”

iixviiiix

The problem with PK mixed in PVE is , what's reward for us to hunt down killers ? and what killer willing to risk when they chose to become killer ?

Theocritus

I love exploring but if there is PK in the game I won't even give it a look.

AlBQuirky

Rhoklaw said:

MightyUnclean said:

Amathe said:

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.

That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.

Not "trouble", but rather too much of a challenge

cheyane

Amathe said:

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

I had many tropical and marine fish tanks when I was younger and we lived in places where I didn't need to pay an arm and a leg for them.

When I was in university I lived in some lecturer's quarters which are these old colonial houses in Malaysia with a separate servants' quarters which they rent out to students. I had so many tanks the lecturer had to make me pay more for electricity. I wasn't paying rent just utilities.

Anyway I had large tanks once I was working and able to afford more and I kept Kribensis with other more placid fishes. Everything went alright until they had batches of fry. Then all hell broke lose.

bcbully

Rhoklaw said:

MightyUnclean said:

Amathe said:

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.

That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.

That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

WhiteLantern

I find it most telling that he is regarded mostly as a "thinker". So was Karl Marx.

Adamantine

MightyUnclean said:

Ut oh, here we go again:  "Koster also seeks to make the game someplace where explorers, player killers, socializers, and killers can co-exist or even find some interdependencies."

If they plan to put PK directly in the mix with everyone else, it will be a mess, as always.  Hopefully, PvP will be completely optional.

What is "killers" as a playing style, anyway ?

Dibdabs

MightyUnclean said:

Amathe said:

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.

I think Last Oasis players have finally realised that.  The Devs... not so much. 

Kyleran

bcbully said:

Rhoklaw said:

MightyUnclean said:

Amathe said:

Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.

But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.

That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.

That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

Which is what people who believe such tell themselves after yet another PVP MMORPG dies a quick death.

  

Scot

For those of us who don't follow these things, what game are we talking about?

Kyleran

Scot said:

For those of us who don't follow these things, what game are we talking about?

There isn't one yet, Raph's new start up Playable World's is planning on creating a new virtual world, sandbox style MMO where everyone theoretically will be able to just "get along."

See you in 2030.

Theocritus

He's probably seeing the money that SC is raking in without having a game and wants a piece of that action.

cameltosis

I'm still a fan of Raph Koster and I think his approach to this new game is a good one. Like others in this thread, I am worried that the game might turn into a science experiment, but I am also hopeful that he has learnt that lesson from Metaverse.

On the subject of trying to create an MMORPG for multiple playstyles, I am fully in support of that goal. In fact, I view it as essential for long term success. Why?

First, humans are fickle! We struggle to concentrate on single tasks for any length of time, our moods change, as do our interests. If a game hopes to retain us for months or years, it needs to provide a variety of activities, otherwise we'll just quit when we inevitably get bored / burned out with the few activities that are there. Providing a bredth of activities will give us something to do and keep us in game for longer.

Second, diverse communities are the strongest. This is true in real life as well as in mmos. One of the reasons for this (and this is a lesson Raph learned from UO) is that group identity is just as much about what you are opposed to as what you have in common. If you have a common enemy (PvPers) then your group (PvEers) will be stronger. Without that opposition, human beings will inevitably find faults within their own groups, resulting in less cohesion (and thus less retention for the game).

Third, this is the massively multiplayer genre. The goal is to bring as many people together as possible and get them playing together. This is best facilitated by building a strong community where the members of that community feel comfortable playing together. Focusing on community, building those social bonds, not only makes good business sense but will improve the multiplayer aspect of the game.

Finally, it just makes good business sense to make a game that can appeal to a very wide range of players. This is obviously based on the assumption that you can actually deliver features that are enjoyable to a wide range of players, which is far from a given. Plenty have tried and failed, but I think Raph managed to get pretty close to this in SWG, so he stands a better chance than most in achieving this goal.

On the PvP front, I personally won't play an MMO unless it has PvP in it. However, I wouldn't worry about Raph putting in non-consenaul PvP (I also wouldn't play if the pvp was non-consensual). Raph spent years trying to figure out how to make it work in UO and couldn't, which is why SWG had flagging. Raph's already learnt his lesson on FFA PvP, so unless he's somehow figured out some genius way to make it work now, chances are the PvP will always be consensual. It is my hope (given the virtual world design) that the PvP will occur in the open world and not be instanced. So, yeh, im expecting another flagging system of some sort.

Amathe

Raph will have 3 new ideas at a time. One great, one bad, and one silly. All three end up in the game. You have to make your own judgment about that.

Scot

Amathe said:

Raph will have 3 new ideas at a time. One great, one bad, and one silly. All three end up in the game. You have to make your own judgment about that.

The good, the bad and the ugly?

Kyleran

Scot said:

Amathe said:

Raph will have 3 new ideas at a time. One great, one bad, and one silly. All three end up in the game. You have to make your own judgment about that.

The good, the bad and the ugly?

Iselin

Nowhere have they said that their idea of co-existence is OWPvP. A game like DAoC had something for all types of player as well as interdependence.

I think you guys are letting your imagination and bias run wild based on some pretty generic pre-production statements.

All we really know is that Raph and Co. have an MMO in the works and that even the most rudimentary details won't be revealed until sometime next year.

If you want to be critical at this stage criticize announcing a future announcement because that's all we have so far.