I have been on the losing side of a faction of more then one war. In DAoC and ESO. There is more then one way to advance your side while not winning the war. Along the way you can win battles by changing tactics. Even on the losing side, I have had a bucket loads of fun.
Those were games where PVP is largely pointless, no real consequencefor winning or losing, your attitude would like be different if you were defending a node you and your mates had worked for weeks or months to build up to a high level only to have it swept aside by a Zerg guild.
Sure different game, different risks. Again tactics will matter. You have to realize that larger cities will be wanting to defend more then attack. Nodes will be blocked from progressing once 4 of the many nodes get higher than the rest of the cities. So again, being on a losing node mean you will be at odds with many other nodes in the same situation. So dont look at taking out the big boys, look at leveling the playing field. Go after nodes that are ramping up to take you out. Bust them up before they do. Again, being a smaller fish in a pond does not mean you cant have fun. Look at what you can do to have fun and win battles not the war. Being the underdog can still be loads of fun. I suggested one way to win battles for a different tactic then winning a war and I am sure there will be many more people come up with.
Been my experience, colored strongly by 10 yrs in EVE (and some time in SB) it will be the big boys who are next door ramping up nodes to take you out.
Either that or they will just camp your lands making life so miserable there you'll have no choice but to pick up stakes and relocate.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have been on the losing side of a faction of more then one war. In DAoC and ESO. There is more then one way to advance your side while not winning the war. Along the way you can win battles by changing tactics. Even on the losing side, I have had a bucket loads of fun.
Those were games where PVP is largely pointless, no real consequencefor winning or losing, your attitude would like be different if you were defending a node you and your mates had worked for weeks or months to build up to a high level only to have it swept aside by a Zerg guild.
Sure different game, different risks. Again tactics will matter. You have to realize that larger cities will be wanting to defend more then attack. Nodes will be blocked from progressing once 4 of the many nodes get higher than the rest of the cities. So again, being on a losing node mean you will be at odds with many other nodes in the same situation. So dont look at taking out the big boys, look at leveling the playing field. Go after nodes that are ramping up to take you out. Bust them up before they do. Again, being a smaller fish in a pond does not mean you cant have fun. Look at what you can do to have fun and win battles not the war. Being the underdog can still be loads of fun. I suggested one way to win battles for a different tactic then winning a war and I am sure there will be many more people come up with.
Been my experience, colored strongly by 10 yrs in EVE (and some time in SB) it will be the big boys who are next door ramping up nodes to take you out.
Either that or they will just camp your lands making life so miserable there you'll have no choice but to pick up stakes and relocate.
In this game, the top dogs will be looking at the cities getting close to their heels. This PvP should balance well that way. And the cities that are growing will be looking who they can take down to level their node up to the next level.
It is nearly impossible to understand a game without knowing wtf the the devs are thinking,in this case Steven.
Has anyone ever asked him WHY he wanted pvp in the game?He talked about using BR to test combat,well has he EVER mentioned anything about the testing affecting PVE combat?
This is what low budget games do,they aim for pvp because it is way easier to do than pve.So yeah this reminds me a LOT of early The New World. PVP should be the END game,you need a robust game full of content and ideas and systems before you do anything with pvp.
If as a dev your main focus is pvp then why make a rpg,why not just make a pvp shooter or a pvp tcg or some moba or BR etc etc.Your not doing the rpg genre any favors with pvp and it never works unless you segregate the two sides but then what is the point?
He has explained quite a few of his design goals, like every thing you do should involve a risk, not everybody should be a winner etc. But i am not sure that your logic about pvp being easier applies here. Steven is a former guildleader of a very large guild in mmo. I don't think he sounded like he just do pvp because it's easier, it sounded like it was his bread and butter. The reason that he wants PvP and open world PvP with ganks is that for him it's what make s things remembered. His example was that its important that when you arrive to an remote open world dungeon after an hour travel (travel time matters) that you can choose to go rouge and try to wipe the opposing party there, to gain the option to progress there . And if they don't fight back you just take the corruption penalty.
Besides this game being fantasy i think its much more reasonable to compare some of it's setup to eve online, and consider if that for you.
It is nearly impossible to understand a game without knowing wtf the the devs are thinking,in this case Steven.
Has anyone ever asked him WHY he wanted pvp in the game?He talked about using BR to test combat,well has he EVER mentioned anything about the testing affecting PVE combat?
This is what low budget games do,they aim for pvp because it is way easier to do than pve.So yeah this reminds me a LOT of early The New World. PVP should be the END game,you need a robust game full of content and ideas and systems before you do anything with pvp.
If as a dev your main focus is pvp then why make a rpg,why not just make a pvp shooter or a pvp tcg or some moba or BR etc etc.Your not doing the rpg genre any favors with pvp and it never works unless you segregate the two sides but then what is the point?
He has explained quite a few of his design goals, like every thing you do should involve a risk, not everybody should be a winner etc. But i am not sure that your logic about pvp being easier applies here. Steven is a former guildleader of a very large guild in mmo. I don't think he sounded like he just do pvp because it's easier, it sounded like it was his bread and butter. The reason that he wants PvP and open world PvP with ganks is that for him it's what make s things remembered. His example was that its important that when you arrive to an remote open world dungeon after an hour travel (travel time matters) that you can choose to go rouge and try to wipe the opposing party there, to gain the option to progress there . And if they don't fight back you just take the corruption penalty.
Besides this game being fantasy i think its much more reasonable to compare some of it's setup to eve online, and consider if that for you.
I think he's just spouting the party line that creating a pvp game is easier than creating a pve game.
I assume it's because people think that writing x amount of quests is hard. When it really isn't.
I would say that there might be less work as far as creating/writing but that a fun, successful pvp game is hard to make because you want players to have some sort of chance and not give up the moment they realize they can never win.
Also, giving players incentive to pvp and perhaps having it affect the world.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It is nearly impossible to understand a game without knowing wtf the the devs are thinking,in this case Steven.
Has anyone ever asked him WHY he wanted pvp in the game?He talked about using BR to test combat,well has he EVER mentioned anything about the testing affecting PVE combat?
This is what low budget games do,they aim for pvp because it is way easier to do than pve.So yeah this reminds me a LOT of early The New World. PVP should be the END game,you need a robust game full of content and ideas and systems before you do anything with pvp.
If as a dev your main focus is pvp then why make a rpg,why not just make a pvp shooter or a pvp tcg or some moba or BR etc etc.Your not doing the rpg genre any favors with pvp and it never works unless you segregate the two sides but then what is the point?
Then dont play MMOs that are advertised as PvP-focussed MMO's?
Has this been advertised as pvp focused mmo up til now because all the previous stuff didnt seem pvp focused to me. I actually agree with Wizardy on this. nerfs from pvp affect pve
It is nearly impossible to understand a game without knowing wtf the the devs are thinking,in this case Steven.
Has anyone ever asked him WHY he wanted pvp in the game?He talked about using BR to test combat,well has he EVER mentioned anything about the testing affecting PVE combat?
This is what low budget games do,they aim for pvp because it is way easier to do than pve.So yeah this reminds me a LOT of early The New World. PVP should be the END game,you need a robust game full of content and ideas and systems before you do anything with pvp.
If as a dev your main focus is pvp then why make a rpg,why not just make a pvp shooter or a pvp tcg or some moba or BR etc etc.Your not doing the rpg genre any favors with pvp and it never works unless you segregate the two sides but then what is the point?
Then dont play MMOs that are advertised as PvP-focussed MMO's?
Has this been advertised as pvp focused mmo up til now because all the previous stuff didnt seem pvp focused to me. I actually agree with Wizardy on this. nerfs from pvp affect pve
Everything he is saying now he has been saying since the start. The game will have both. It is going to have raids, dungeons, world bosses, quests, etc. It is also going to have world pvp, caravan pvp, arenas, sieges, etc.
I think he's just spouting the party line that creating a pvp game is easier than creating a pve game.
I assume it's because people think that writing x amount of quests is hard. When it really isn't.
I would say that there might be less work as far as creating/writing but that a fun, successful pvp game is hard to make because you want players to have some sort of chance and not give up the moment they realize they can never win.
Also, giving players incentive to pvp and perhaps having it affect the world.
First of all its a pvx game meaning that pvp gives access to pve, and need for pve gives reasons for pvp. And thats going to be what the game is about from day 1 (at least from when players are leaving the starting areas). So no exuse for not having both and having both working in this game.
One thing to consider here is the node system (zones in other games) . Content change in (and around?) each node based on it's development. We don't know yet how it is going to work out, but it is basically pvp deciding access to and availability of pve.
In it's most simple setup they have to make content for the 4 basic kinds of nodes, each I think in 7 different stage, but can then reuse them all other places in the world. That's like making 28 zones of content . Though it can even just be seen as 4 really advanced zones if they just build on top of what they have and reuse that. That's properly going to leave a lot of players disappointed and the game dead very fast if they have to settle for only that.
In it's most advanced form its every zone in the world (around 103 nodes) developed in 7 different stages. All zones individual tailored with events, quest and stories to suit it's exact placement in the world and it's relationship to nodes around in different stages inciting new reasons and possibilities for pvx. That's properly way to ambitious to go for a new and yet relative small company. Though I would love to see something like this done down the line, with this game.
So the game will have to start out somewhere in between. With a lot of stuff to still be fleshed out, but the core of mechanics around nodes and their changes and what they open up for working even though a lot of stuff in pve properly will have to be generic from the same template used in another zone. (alternative the release day have to wait a few more years with the 20% of zone content made so far)-
@cheyane ; They have advertised the game as PvX. The pvp system includes a type of flagging system with corruption penalties.
@delete5230 ; someone has to be on the losing side right? However, its not gonna be as easy as you depict it to be. Remember Guild members will not all (have to ) be citizens of the same nodes, in some cases it may be necessary for them to be citizens of others. Also take in consideration that Castles are independent system of their own outside of the Node system. Castles will be within the ZOI's of nodes but not part of that system. They will have their own Vassal nodes. Trading, Religious, Node type, and Castles will all be factors to whom sieges whom and what not. "being on the winning Side" isnt going to be as easy as you think.
forgive me if i misunderstood your example or explanation here but I wanted to clarify on this statement: "One thing to consider here is the node system (zones in other games) . Content change in (and around?) each node based on it's development. We don't know yet how it is going to work out, but it is basically pvp deciding access to and availability of pve. "
Nodes are not like zones, nodes are cities that grow (level up) starting from stage 0 wilderness up to stage 6 Metropolis. Each node has a Zone of Influence (ZOI) which is an area around particular nodes (and their vassal nodes) that certain actions taken within those ZOI's will determined many different factors as well as attribute experience points to the Node and its vassal nodes.
forgive me if i misunderstood your example or explanation here but I wanted to clarify on this statement: "One thing to consider here is the node system (zones in other games) . Content change in (and around?) each node based on it's development. We don't know yet how it is going to work out, but it is basically pvp deciding access to and availability of pve. "
Nodes are not like zones, nodes are cities that grow (level up) starting from stage 0 wilderness up to stage 6 Metropolis. Each node has a Zone of Influence (ZOI) which is an area around particular nodes (and their vassal nodes) that certain actions taken within those ZOI's will determined many different factors as well as attribute experience points to the Node and its vassal nodes.
Nodes are not like zones, nodes are cities that grow (level up) starting from stage 0 wilderness up to stage 6 Metropolis. Each node has a Zone of Influence (ZOI) which is an area around particular nodes (and their vassal nodes) that certain actions taken within those ZOI's will determined many different factors as well as attribute experience points to the Node and its vassal nodes.
You are off cause right from a mechanical point.
But the reason I say it can be regarded as a zone in other games , is the impact a node is supposed to have on its surroundings. The content that is interconnected with it's zone of influence and is locked and unlocked depending on its level makes it such a big thing to design around. That amount of work for each stage can be compared to making zones in other games.
I have been on the losing side of a faction of more then one war. In DAoC and ESO. There is more then one way to advance your side while not winning the war. Along the way you can win battles by changing tactics. Even on the losing side, I have had a bucket loads of fun.
And I was a member of The Black Watch on the Dread server in Shadowbane. See how that worked out for that server (even after the devs spawned demons to side with the rest of the sever against us we still won and the server became a ghost town). It all depends on the game mechanics hence the reason for the OP asking about how such situations are mitigated.
Nodes are not like zones, nodes are cities that grow (level up) starting from stage 0 wilderness up to stage 6 Metropolis. Each node has a Zone of Influence (ZOI) which is an area around particular nodes (and their vassal nodes) that certain actions taken within those ZOI's will determined many different factors as well as attribute experience points to the Node and its vassal nodes.
You are off cause right from a mechanical point.
But the reason I say it can be regarded as a zone in other games , is the impact a node is supposed to have on its surroundings. The content that is interconnected with it's zone of influence and is locked and unlocked depending on its level makes it such a big thing to design around. That amount of work for each stage can be compared to making zones in other games.
Ah, from a developmental standpoint, I do see what you mean, however the impact of all actions would make it a lot more in-depth than static zones in other games. I dont know the specifics of their algorithm or macro architecture of course, so Im not aware of the amount of different variations of content/functions that a Node's ZOI may produce, but I do know its going to be fluid and different across servers (albeit, this is subject to change).
If you have any questions though, feel free to ping me. I've been following the game since Qtr 1, 2017. I hope i can help out.
I have been on the losing side of a faction of more then one war. In DAoC and ESO. There is more then one way to advance your side while not winning the war. Along the way you can win battles by changing tactics. Even on the losing side, I have had a bucket loads of fun.
And I was a member of The Black Watch on the Dread server in Shadowbane. See how that worked out for that server (even after the devs spawned demons to side with the rest of the sever against us we still won and the server became a ghost town). It all depends on the game mechanics hence the reason for the OP asking about how such situations are mitigated.
Read my other post in this thread, I covered that. People find a way. It's a thing.
Nodes are only allowed so many citizens. The mayor can build apartment buildings to allow more people to become citizens but there is a set limit. Its not like everyone can just be on the winning side.
Nodes are only allowed so many citizens. The mayor can build apartment buildings to allow more people to become citizens but there is a set limit. Its not like everyone can just be on the winning side.
For all the positive people..... This is assuming everything works. I always take the realistic approach and that's nothing works or very little from years of experience.
Are you the type that reads features and really count on them ?
I would believe a Virtual Reality mmorpg more that the features working in this game.
Nodes are only allowed so many citizens. The mayor can build apartment buildings to allow more people to become citizens but there is a set limit. Its not like everyone can just be on the winning side.
For all the positive people..... This is assuming everything works. I always take the realistic approach and that's nothing works or very little from years of experience.
Are you the type that reads features and really count on them ?
I would believe a Virtual Reality mmorpg more that the features working in this game.
It's totally fair to be really skeptical , especial with the lofty ambitions from a new company and the track record in the industry in generel in mind, and bring up the "if things will work " question, even in every thread here, that's the grim reality.
But I think discussion would benefit if we where to discern a little more between discussing how features might work and if they will work.
Nodes are only allowed so many citizens. The mayor can build apartment buildings to allow more people to become citizens but there is a set limit. Its not like everyone can just be on the winning side.
For all the positive people..... This is assuming everything works. I always take the realistic approach and that's nothing works or very little from years of experience.
Are you the type that reads features and really count on them ?
I would believe a Virtual Reality mmorpg more that the features working in this game.
It's totally fair to be really skeptical , especial with the lofty ambitions from a new company and the track record in the industry in generel in mind, and bring up the "if things will work " question, even in every thread here, that's the grim reality.
But I think discussion would benefit if we where to discern a little more between discussing how features might work and if they will work.
We know the system won't work perfectly, this is a PvP gaming system they never do. It is more about what can and will be done to fix it? As long as the designers realise that and don't think their systems are infallible like CoE did, they should be able to work though any problems.
Nodes are only allowed so many citizens. The mayor can build apartment buildings to allow more people to become citizens but there is a set limit. Its not like everyone can just be on the winning side.
For all the positive people..... This is assuming everything works. I always take the realistic approach and that's nothing works or very little from years of experience.
Are you the type that reads features and really count on them ?
I would believe a Virtual Reality mmorpg more that the features working in this game.
What is even the purpose of talking about the game then? We only know what they tell us and for now we have to assume it will work how they say it will. Also this is a fairly simple "feature". Apartment building adds +30 slots for citizens for a node. Not really sure how they can screw that one up.
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Either that or they will just camp your lands making life so miserable there you'll have no choice but to pick up stakes and relocate.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But i am not sure that your logic about pvp being easier applies here. Steven is a former guildleader of a very large guild in mmo. I don't think he sounded like he just do pvp because it's easier, it sounded like it was his bread and butter.
The reason that he wants PvP and open world PvP with ganks is that for him it's what make s things remembered. His example was that its important that when you arrive to an remote open world dungeon after an hour travel (travel time matters) that you can choose to go rouge and try to wipe the opposing party there, to gain the option to progress there . And if they don't fight back you just take the corruption penalty.
Besides this game being fantasy i think its much more reasonable to compare some of it's setup to eve online, and consider if that for you.
I assume it's because people think that writing x amount of quests is hard. When it really isn't.
I would say that there might be less work as far as creating/writing but that a fun, successful pvp game is hard to make because you want players to have some sort of chance and not give up the moment they realize they can never win.
Also, giving players incentive to pvp and perhaps having it affect the world.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I actually agree with Wizardy on this.
nerfs from pvp affect pve
First of all its a pvx game meaning that pvp gives access to pve, and need for pve gives reasons for pvp. And thats going to be what the game is about from day 1 (at least from when players are leaving the starting areas). So no exuse for not having both and having both working in this game.
One thing to consider here is the node system (zones in other games) . Content change in (and around?) each node based on it's development. We don't know yet how it is going to work out, but it is basically pvp deciding access to and availability of pve.
In it's most simple setup they have to make content for the 4 basic kinds of nodes, each I think in 7 different stage, but can then reuse them all other places in the world. That's like making 28 zones of content . Though it can even just be seen as 4 really advanced zones if they just build on top of what they have and reuse that. That's properly going to leave a lot of players disappointed and the game dead very fast if they have to settle for only that.
In it's most advanced form its every zone in the world (around 103 nodes) developed in 7 different stages. All zones individual tailored with events, quest and stories to suit it's exact placement in the world and it's relationship to nodes around in different stages inciting new reasons and possibilities for pvx. That's properly way to ambitious to go for a new and yet relative small company. Though I would love to see something like this done down the line, with this game.
So the game will have to start out somewhere in between. With a lot of stuff to still be fleshed out, but the core of mechanics around nodes and their changes and what they open up for working even though a lot of stuff in pve properly will have to be generic from the same template used in another zone. (alternative the release day have to wait a few more years with the 20% of zone content made so far)-
@delete5230 ; someone has to be on the losing side right? However, its not gonna be as easy as you depict it to be. Remember Guild members will not all (have to ) be citizens of the same nodes, in some cases it may be necessary for them to be citizens of others. Also take in consideration that Castles are independent system of their own outside of the Node system. Castles will be within the ZOI's of nodes but not part of that system. They will have their own Vassal nodes. Trading, Religious, Node type, and Castles will all be factors to whom sieges whom and what not. "being on the winning Side" isnt going to be as easy as you think.
forgive me if i misunderstood your example or explanation here but I wanted to clarify on this statement: "One thing to consider here is the node system (zones in other games) . Content change in (and around?) each node based on it's development. We don't know yet how it is going to work out, but it is basically pvp deciding access to and availability of pve. "
Nodes are not like zones, nodes are cities that grow (level up) starting from stage 0 wilderness up to stage 6 Metropolis. Each node has a Zone of Influence (ZOI) which is an area around particular nodes (and their vassal nodes) that certain actions taken within those ZOI's will determined many different factors as well as attribute experience points to the Node and its vassal nodes.
For those who would like more info on Nodes you can check out:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Encampment#Node_advancement
https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-03-16-know-your-nodes-the-basics
Also theres some good intro vid series to nodes:
Part 1 & 2 : https://ashesofcreation.com/news/node-series-part-two-the-metropolis
forgive me if i misunderstood your example or explanation here but I wanted to clarify on this statement: "One thing to consider here is the node system (zones in other games) . Content change in (and around?) each node based on it's development. We don't know yet how it is going to work out, but it is basically pvp deciding access to and availability of pve. "
Nodes are not like zones, nodes are cities that grow (level up) starting from stage 0 wilderness up to stage 6 Metropolis. Each node has a Zone of Influence (ZOI) which is an area around particular nodes (and their vassal nodes) that certain actions taken within those ZOI's will determined many different factors as well as attribute experience points to the Node and its vassal nodes.
For those who would like more info on Nodes you can check out:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Encampment#Node_advancement
https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-03-16-know-your-nodes-the-basics
Also theres some good intro vid series to nodes:
Part 1 & 2 : https://ashesofcreation.com/news/node-series-part-two-the-metropolis
If you have any questions though, feel free to ping me. I've been following the game since Qtr 1, 2017. I hope i can help out.
This is assuming everything works. I always take the realistic approach and that's nothing works or very little from years of experience.
Are you the type that reads features and really count on them ?
I would believe a Virtual Reality mmorpg more that the features working in this game.
It's totally fair to be really skeptical , especial with the lofty ambitions from a new company and the track record in the industry in generel in mind, and bring up the "if things will work " question, even in every thread here, that's the grim reality.
But I think discussion would benefit if we where to discern a little more between discussing how features might work and if they will work.