I think Epic is s piece of shit company. I think Fortnite is a piece of shit game... but this was actually a really creative marketing move that strikes gold. And I kind of hope they win because... Apple.
Are you okay with companies selling their products on a platform then try to get around paying the fee every seller agrees to by any means necessary?
BOTH Apple and Epic suck but in this case Epic is trying to be a scammer. If Epic doesn't have to pay the 30% fee then NO other company should have to pay that but as usual Epic is only looking out for themselves and trying to even manipulate THEIR OWN customers into believing something that's false.
amazon and i think microsoft also, have special deals that pay only 15% on the apple.
If you can get the same product on another platform it isn't a monopoly. As long as the Google Play and Amazon app store exists the Apple store
isn't a monopoly. Just like the Steam store wasn't a monopoly cause GOG
and the aussie store were also available but go on believing whatever
Epic says when they say it if you like. You have the CHOICE to purchase the game on ANY platform you want you do not only have ONE option.
If you can't access what you purchased through Apple by downloading the game from Google then that is 100% the developers fault. There are mobile games like Summoners War that allow you to save everything you bought on your master account to use somewhere else. If Epic only added their product to one platform instead of every
platform then that's on them being cheap and their customers should be
upset with them not Apple. A game I was playing from Amazon stopped service for Kindle but I had no problem using my account when I dl the game from Google.
@rojoArcueid - Mobile games get taken off platforms all the time. Sometimes the games close( see Marvel Battle Lines, and Avengers Academy), sometimes the developer stops supporting a certain OS like NetMarble did with Marvel Future Fight for chrome. There isn't a divine contract assuring that you get to permanently use the stuff you bought forever. You have to be cautious with how you go about your mobile gaming life by planning ahead and securing all the accounts you've made with every option available to you.
Also, the story 1984 was about a government that manipulated people into believing things such as lies were truth and truth were lies. In this situation Epic resembles that tyrannical government more than Apple cause they are trying to fool their own customers into thinking their own actions of trying to scam Apple is somehow Apple's fault. Epic actually put in the effort to create a system to circumvent Apple's fee just think about that for a second. The thought and effort they put into this scheme was in no way an organic mistake that 'just happened'. They are a multi-billion dollar company, decisions to do things like this don't 'just happen'.
Interesting move. The mobile market is effectively in a duopoly situation. For all intents and purposes, this is just as bad as a monopoly and might actually be worse, due to monopolies being constantly watched by the public for any oversteps; while duopolies tend to create an illusion of competition and choice, where in reality the market is divided between two comparable actors and consumers within each of the two groups have no choice whatsoever.
Both Apple and Google also make it more difficult to switch as both Apple and Google lock their users in their ecosystems - this is much more prevalent for iOS, especially if you use their devices professionally and might have paid thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for their computers and software. At every step, Apple works hard on locking you in their system, using convenience as their argument.
The court papers show that this is not really about the court case itself, but more about pushing for legislative action. Epic is trying to join the current momentum, now that it appears that at least some U.S. lawmakers have finally woken up from years of complete ignorance of a handful of tech companies taking over the U.S. economy.
Epic is not asking for financial compensation and much of the court papers refer to the market position, size and strength of Apple and draw comparisons with historical monopoly cases.
If Epic wins, I'm sure they won't be sad, but that's not why they are doing this. Their aim seems to be to push the legislators to take more drastic action across the market, potentially forcing Apple and Google to open up their systems to real competition and / or breaking them up just as happened in the past with Standard Oil or with AT&T.
I don't really see how Apple is a monopoly, which is Epic's legal claim, as there's Android. But, when they both charge 30% to be on their platform it gets damn tricky. Does it become collusion?
The biggest factor here:
It's not really an Apple vs Android thing.. Because yeah, it's not really a monopoly because you don't have to buy an Apple phone. The issue isn't "monopoly". So you are correct there.
I can see an anti-competitive case though. Apple does have about 45% of the smart phone market in the US. That's been pretty consistent over the past few years. The crux of the issue is, to add software to the device, you must go through the App Store. You can't side load apps like you can on Android, so it's App Store or nothing.
This is closer to the old Microsoft Internet Explorer cases, where Microsoft used to force IE on Windows users. You were never forced to use Windows, alternatives always existed, but it was found they abused their power due to market share to attempt to force out their competition in the browser space.
Now, at the time (and even today), Windows held a >90% market share on PC desktops. 45% is a long way from 90%, so maybe that same case doesn't necessarily hold up. But this also describes my biggest issue with iOS right now: Apple takes away the ability for the user to decide what to run. I know the official rational is for security and compatibility, as it allows Apple to screen apps, but it also pops up for issues exactly like this: where it has nothing to do with safety and security and is entirely about revenue. And that's the anti-competitive case that may be able to prevail against Apple.
I don't really see how Apple is a monopoly, which is Epic's legal claim, as there's Android. But, when they both charge 30% to be on their platform it gets damn tricky. Does it become collusion?
PC doesn't have that issue as there are tons more alternatives to Steam AND I've played steam games that let you make payments outside of their ecosystem. Hell even blizzard let's you buy hearthstone stuff at a discount on Amazon.
PS: I despise Apple 10x more than I hate Epic. Apple pretty much never does things that benefit the consumer. and they actually do tons of things that make it worse for the consumer, such as massively overpriced hardware and only allowing their company techs to do repairs.
It is a monopoly because if someone tries to come up with another app store they will just block it from their OS.
Well done epic games, keep it up! love what your doing and thanks for tons of free games.
You don't even understand what's happening here.
Epic (backed by Tencent/China) is now suing both Apple and Google
Consider this - only about 8% of Fortnite players are mobile, 14% is PC, 78% is console
Consoles take 30% cut just like Apple and Andriod.
That is an interesting point here. Epic winning this case could set a precedent that destroys the console market and thus damages gaming substantially.
I'm not going to entertain or deny the whole US vs. China trade war tinfoil hattery, but Epic's sledgehammer approach is a matter of concern.
Doesn’t Epic get a cut of any games it sells on it’s platform? Kinda hypocritical, imo. Not surprised at all. I hope they lose. This seems more like publicity stunt for an aging game.
Post edited by Palebane on
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I agree with Apple and Google on this. If you own a platform, you should make some money. Its no different than Xbox or PS making money because you bought a game for their platform. Good for them!
Well done epic games, keep it up! love what your doing and thanks for tons of free games.
You don't even understand what's happening here.
Epic (backed by Tencent/China) is now suing both Apple and Google
Consider this - only about 8% of Fortnite players are mobile, 14% is PC, 78% is console
Consoles take 30% cut just like Apple and Andriod.
As many are speculating - the real issue here is not 8% loss, it's not the 30% cut, it's really China vs US trade war - Epic(China backed) vs US (Apple/Google)
Epic wouldn't take on both Apple and Google if they weren't backed by China on this.
The reality is - Epic knows that they have zero chance vs Apple and Google - alone they would never even bother, because when it comes to mega corporations like Google and Apple and their influence and clout - it makes a huge difference when it comes to the legal system at that level (yeah it's not a level playing field at all - but this should not be a surprise to anyone)
So might want to rethink that "epic is the good guy" conclusion
Consider this, Tencent owns 40% of Epic, so doesn't control its actions.
But who really owns Tencent?
The South African Government, since like 1991 when they bought a controlling interest.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I am not a fan of apple but they are in the right on this one. If you make an agreement to sell your product on their devices thru their storefront then you agreed to pay them a cut. Trying to circumvent that after the fact is violating a contract with them. In reality it should be apple suing Epic for breach of contract.
Hope apple does turns the table on them and sues the hell out of them. Would be an open and shut case.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you can get the same product on another platform it isn't a monopoly. As long as the Google Play and Amazon app store exists the Apple store
isn't a monopoly.
Well those are the only two viable mobile platforms and they charge the same amount. So in essence they have a stranglehold on the mobile marketplace. While it may not qualify as a monopoly, it still could run afoul of the feds. But only with a Democrat in charge.
epic games = unreal engine. what means pretty much every game
Unity, Frostbite, and Crysis, among many others would like a word with you. There isn't a valid argument for Unreal being anti-competitive or lacking competition.
There are valid reasons to criticize Epic, but leasing one of the best engines in the industry (with very favorable terms) isn't one of them.
You can't really act like Google is being more magnanimous than Apple regarding Epic since it was Google that initially refused to put Fortnight on their store. They only caved after Epic told users how to side load the game. If this game wasn't overwhelmingly popular, it never would have been on Android store at all.
Either way, I can't wait until the Linux phones are more fully baked.
How did Epic think this was going to end? The whole point of offering stores like that is that the company that runs the store gets a cut of the sales. They pretty much have to kick out any products that so blatantly violate their policy by avoiding giving the store a cut of their sales. Google and Apple did what they pretty much had to do in response to such a flagrant violation of their rules. If the Epic store were more established, Epic almost surely would have done the same to a game that tried to avoid giving Epic a cut of the sales to be in their store.
There is an enormous difference between Google and Apple here in that you can get Android apps without going through the Google Play store, but for iOS, everything has to go through Apple. If the latter upsets you, then don't buy anything that runs iOS. Apple has handled iOS that way from the very start, so it's not like they're springing a surprise on you years later.
But it could be an anti-trust issue.
I really don't see a plausible anti-trust case against Apple. They have far too small of market share in their main markets.
If you want to argue that the market is iOS alone, then they're just using the game console business model: the company that builds the console takes a cut of software sales on it. Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft have been doing that for decades. To abruptly make that illegal would have implications that extend far beyond cell phones.
The anti-trust case against Google is much stronger, but the Google Play store really isn't even part of that case. Rather, the anti-trust case against Google is that it uses its dominance of the search and web advertising markets to gain an unfair advantage in other markets.
PS: I despise Apple 10x more than I hate Epic. Apple pretty much never does things that benefit the consumer. and they actually do tons of things that make it worse for the consumer, such as massively overpriced hardware and only allowing their company techs to do repairs.
Apple has done some good things. For example, they popularized the GUI, created OpenCL, and killed Flash.
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Both Apple and Google also make it more difficult to switch as both Apple and Google lock their users in their ecosystems - this is much more prevalent for iOS, especially if you use their devices professionally and might have paid thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for their computers and software. At every step, Apple works hard on locking you in their system, using convenience as their argument.
The court papers show that this is not really about the court case itself, but more about pushing for legislative action. Epic is trying to join the current momentum, now that it appears that at least some U.S. lawmakers have finally woken up from years of complete ignorance of a handful of tech companies taking over the U.S. economy.
Epic is not asking for financial compensation and much of the court papers refer to the market position, size and strength of Apple and draw comparisons with historical monopoly cases.
If Epic wins, I'm sure they won't be sad, but that's not why they are doing this. Their aim seems to be to push the legislators to take more drastic action across the market, potentially forcing Apple and Google to open up their systems to real competition and / or breaking them up just as happened in the past with Standard Oil or with AT&T.
It's not really an Apple vs Android thing.. Because yeah, it's not really a monopoly because you don't have to buy an Apple phone. The issue isn't "monopoly". So you are correct there.
I can see an anti-competitive case though. Apple does have about 45% of the smart phone market in the US. That's been pretty consistent over the past few years. The crux of the issue is, to add software to the device, you must go through the App Store. You can't side load apps like you can on Android, so it's App Store or nothing.
This is closer to the old Microsoft Internet Explorer cases, where Microsoft used to force IE on Windows users. You were never forced to use Windows, alternatives always existed, but it was found they abused their power due to market share to attempt to force out their competition in the browser space.
Now, at the time (and even today), Windows held a >90% market share on PC desktops. 45% is a long way from 90%, so maybe that same case doesn't necessarily hold up. But this also describes my biggest issue with iOS right now: Apple takes away the ability for the user to decide what to run. I know the official rational is for security and compatibility, as it allows Apple to screen apps, but it also pops up for issues exactly like this: where it has nothing to do with safety and security and is entirely about revenue. And that's the anti-competitive case that may be able to prevail against Apple.
It is a monopoly because if someone tries to come up with another app store they will just block it from their OS.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I'm not going to entertain or deny the whole US vs. China trade war tinfoil hattery, but Epic's sledgehammer approach is a matter of concern.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
But who really owns Tencent?
The South African Government, since like 1991 when they bought a controlling interest.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hope apple does turns the table on them and sues the hell out of them. Would be an open and shut case.
Honestly, this is such a no-brainer that I can't help but think that it is a marketing ploy.
Not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well those are the only two viable mobile platforms and they charge the same amount. So in essence they have a stranglehold on the mobile marketplace. While it may not qualify as a monopoly, it still could run afoul of the feds. But only with a Democrat in charge.
There are valid reasons to criticize Epic, but leasing one of the best engines in the industry (with very favorable terms) isn't one of them.
Either way, I can't wait until the Linux phones are more fully baked.
They are all scum.
If you want to argue that the market is iOS alone, then they're just using the game console business model: the company that builds the console takes a cut of software sales on it. Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft have been doing that for decades. To abruptly make that illegal would have implications that extend far beyond cell phones.
The anti-trust case against Google is much stronger, but the Google Play store really isn't even part of that case. Rather, the anti-trust case against Google is that it uses its dominance of the search and web advertising markets to gain an unfair advantage in other markets.