I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Joppa said that they didnt want to copy EQ1 death penalty because EQ1 is a different game. Even if it is a spiritual successor. Their reason for keeping gear on your char and not your inventory. It fits the game they are designing as a whole. A part of the game play will be about fighting back to your body with the support of your team.
Me personally, EQ1 I found as a Necro or any other caster, naked I was still very effective. Now a Ranger, Tank, you get where I am going. They were mostly useless. Its nice that with Pantheons death penalty, all classes will be on a equal footing when they die. Will have to see how it plays out.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
As Joppa clarified, in Pantheon a naked run would be impossible to retrieve your corpse due to the current design. Not to mention, we don't have full context. There are also too many variables that can affect corpse runs (such as: distance of bind spots, mob density, agro radius, downtime between fights, mana/resource management, encumbrance, item weight, coin weight, etc..) to make a complete assessment.
If you feel the death penalty is too light then I'll gladly train you on my monk since you won't mind.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Joppa said that they didnt want to copy EQ1 death penalty because EQ1 is a different game. Even if it is a spiritual successor. Their reason for keeping gear on your char and not your inventory. It fits the game they are designing as a whole. A part of the game play will be about fighting back to your body with the support of your team.
Me personally, EQ1 I found as a Necro or any other caster, naked I was still very effective. Now a Ranger, Tank, you get where I am going. They were mostly useless. Its nice that with Pantheons death penalty, all classes will be on a equal footing when they die. Will have to see how it plays out.
Yes, but now you won't see Necro's summoning corpses or people asking for SoW and Invis to get to their corpse to drag it to safety. I get it though, EQ1's death penalty truly was unforgiving, but isn't the point of making an old school MMO to go BACK to what made those games unique? Considering Pantheon did start off with everything dropping, makes me think they are questioning the value of their original vision. While it's only one change, I worry when more changes occur because that to me makes it seem like we'll end up with another New World fiasco of trying to please everyone instead of the people who actually backed your game.
I didn't back Pantheon for $1000 to see another WoW / EQ2 clone.
There is a line between spiritual successor and cloning a game. Getting the heart of EQ1 is still their priority but if they don't design Pantheon with the game systems they are designing, Pantheon will not reach its full potential. As for Necros summoning corpses and rogues pulling courses. Clerics resing with returned exp. That's in this game as well. I do get where you are coming from. There are things I would like see make the cut but really in the full scope of the game. Death Penalty is just one smaller part and the higher your level the less it happens. With the tools you have at top level it's not something people think about even in EQ1.
I'd like to think that if so many people felt the same way as the OP, they'd been posting on the game's forums?
Regardless of any game, there's going to be things you don't like, hell I bet there were even things in EQ1 you didn't like. We're not children anymore (even though some of us may still act like it). Unless you get the money and talent to build a game you exactly want, this is just how the things will remain. Can take it or leave until they decide on their own if they want to change it. Just be happy they aren't pulling a CoE.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Yeah well EQ1 death penalty was fine until you lost a corpse due to a game bug and could as a result not recover it due to the same bug. Don't say you could ask a GM for help, some of them were asses and would not help no matter what and would not ever bother to check the issue out.
With a death penalty like early EQ1 you need either a totally bug free game (not possible) or a method to recover the corpse when lost due to a game bug which EQ did not have. If Pantheon has such then I am fine with a EQ1 like death penalty.
However, the Pantheon Death penalty never changed. Even on the Kickstarter Brad had posted about it being somewhere between EQ - VG which the current Pantheon death penalty meets. With that said, I also want a more harsh death penalty, and I think not having naked corpse runs is a bad idea, which I’ll continue to argue for until release - but its disingenuous to say that its changed or become less harsh.
Puzzles in any MMORPG where you have to go to YouTube and or a wiki/forums to find the answers for makes me dislike the game a tiny bit in my soul forever. It breaks my immersion and makes me resent the developer for putting stuff that requires google searching for stuff that really just seems unnecessary when I'm just trying to relax and have fun playing a game.
Puzzles I don't mind are the ones you can figure out then & there IN the game with all the information that's being provided. Good examples IMO of mmorpg games that do that are DDO & W101.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Yeah well EQ1 death penalty was fine until you lost a corpse due to a game bug and could as a result not recover it due to the same bug. Don't say you could ask a GM for help, some of them were asses and would not help no matter what and would not ever bother to check the issue out.
With a death penalty like early EQ1 you need either a totally bug free game (not possible) or a method to recover the corpse when lost due to a game bug which EQ did not have. If Pantheon has such then I am fine with a EQ1 like death penalty.
Is that an issue with the game mechanic or their customer service? I suspect more the latter.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I only ever needed customer service a few times in EQ, and they were always friendly and helpful. Of course, that was back in early 2002 and after. Things might have changed.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
I agree with this in that they went back on what we were told originally about the death penalty.
The thing is, I think they are going the wrong way.
To compare to the EQ death penalty, back in EQs prime it was most peoples first online graphical mmorpg. Player ability has increased just because players have played through similar systems many multiple times. Technology has increased so you dont go link dead anywhere near as much. Lag has been greatly diminished.
These are all reasons that the death penalty should be more harsh, not lessened. The lesser death penalty is going to seem like nothing. Playing P99 currently is a prime example. The exp penalty has no weight compared to original EQ. It simply doesnt matter.
When VR/Pantheon is trying to make a game that makes players rely on each other and has a slower pace of combat where reputation matters...if the death penalty isnt harsh all of those things fail. None of that matters.
We can make some educated guesses on why they have chosen the direction they have but the outcome remains the same. I think it is the wrong wrong decision and is very obviously not going to sustain players in the long run.
There are ways of making a tough death penalty seem a good experience, like Combat Fatigue where you have to hang out in a tavern for a while. Taking Xp and corpse runs, that's old school we need to leave behind.
If you want Everquest 1, then why don't you play Everquest 1?? It may be shocking to learn, but the game is still around!
Using that logic, why bother making any new game at all if you liked the game you were playing previously? For that matter, why read a book with similar styles? I mean, you can just re-read the one you liked right?
Some people would like a "new" game, with a "new" story, new worlds, content, and features, yet... still holding to a similar template of play and style. This is how you ended up with numerous games that copied an original design, but were able to take that games style and continue it into new ways.
Or were you actually trying to be honest in your response and not simply flippantly telling anyone who wants a similar style to EQ1 to F-off?
The point is not that new games should not be made but when you systematically break down a game and hate each of every component of that game. Then compare it to another game, in Delete's case, saying EQ1 didnt do it this way, EQ1 is a better game. Maybe you are not looking for a new experience. Maybe you have walked away from a game you didnt know you loved more than any other game.
There are key aspects to which made EQ what it was. Remove those and you don't get a new experience, you get another flavor of mainstream. Which oddly enough is exactly what I (and I assume others) were seeking of Pantheon, to be another "flavor" of EQ.
Raiding is not what made EQ what it was (Raiding was just what its focus became), it was the naked corpse runs, combined with very long travel, dangerous zones of mobs that would pursue you to the zone line. It was the risk vs the reward, where going deep into a dungeon was very risky and if unprepared could result in an entire night spent trying to recover.
EQ was layers and layers of risks. It was the small things that people take for granted today, and often claim is "infringements" on personal play because it is an "inconvenience" to them. These are the things that were removed from games over the years and it is these things that VR has omitted from Pantheon, which is why I can relate to his argument.
There are tons of small elements of play that people dismiss, which I think was an amazing recipe to which made EQ what it was. Games today did not evolve on that concept of risk vs reward, they sought to proclaim it a sickness that had to be cured. They did not see those elements of play as why EQ was a great game, they saw them as getting in the way of "fun(tm)", which misses the point.
Pantheon is not seeking to take what made games like EQ great in play and then use that as a template to innovate, rather they are doing what every other MMO out there has done, they are "repairing" their perception of flaws of EQ, which will result in another mainstream game of a different flavor.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Yeah well EQ1 death penalty was fine until you lost a corpse due to a game bug and could as a result not recover it due to the same bug. Don't say you could ask a GM for help, some of them were asses and would not help no matter what and would not ever bother to check the issue out.
With a death penalty like early EQ1 you need either a totally bug free game (not possible) or a method to recover the corpse when lost due to a game bug which EQ did not have. If Pantheon has such then I am fine with a EQ1 like death penalty.
In 2004, EQ1 they added a graveyard zone called Shadowrest, which allowed players whose corpses have decayed, after 7 days, to retrieve it. If you did not have an expired corpse, you were not able to travel to Shadowrest. From then on, you never had to worry about losing the items on your corpse permanently.
In the recent video talking about Pantheon's death penalty, Joppa mentioned someone dying and then due to real-life circumstances (vacation, illness, etc.) not being able to play the game for 2 weeks. He didn't reveal their planned solution, but at least they are aware of the problem and will address it.
Reminds me of the Diplomacy system that Vanguard was going to use...It was going to change the gaming world forever, except it never really worked.....
It worked well enough up to the level it stopped at, just like their Crafting system. We get so few new ideas in MMOs that I think we should forget none of them. Fair enough as you say it had problems, but we need radical ideas like that to revitalise what is one of the most by-the-book genres.
I think MMOs have taken off in a direction where people zip from quest marker to quest marker. Doing dungeons are about how fast can you get the run done. To RP dismay we are stuck on this loop where we dont get to stop and look around or experience story any more. In ESO they so many awesome dungeons that have awesome stories. I never got to experience any of the stories. I had to goto youtube to watch them.
For me, people who love RP and to explore will love this system. Im one of the people who love this crap. I came from PnP games to EQ1 to RP in a world I could visually see. I was in awe the whole time. Im ready for this slower game and how players will interact with the world and each other.
Take simple dialog in Pantheon.
What is it? Last time I checked it was simply a click fest of responses. There is no intellectual exploration, critical thinking, or intelligent approach to the content, merely clicking down the decision trees looking for the best result.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
Now I know some will complain about the technical problems with EQs questing, but this is an issue of improving a good idea, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is, instead of dumbing down the system with interactive click reading, you implement spell checkers, thesauruses, and add other measures (for instance don't allow the NPC to simply eat an item if they don't have decision tree for it).
Doing this would improve upon EQs questing, keeping the heart of its system of play and expanding it, improving it, giving it more depth and intelligent play approaches.
This is the same with their Perception system. From what I have seen, it is merely a run around "hunt and peck" style system where the player is just looking for physical triggers as their "exploration" approach. This is a problem I have with such physical triggers, there is no thought to them, they are just "dumb animal" traps requiring no intelligent interaction of the player.
EQ had its problems, but the features, even with their troubles, were the heart of what made the experience what it was. Remove all those, you end up with yet another mainstream point and click game that has no soul.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
<snip>
When I played EQ1, I didn't do any of that. Quests were too hard to figure out on your own and completely unforgiving if you made a mistake. Like everyone else, I looked up the quests on Allakhazam to see what I needed to say and items I needed to give to the NPC. Even then, you had to be super careful not to mess up.
Can you honestly say you did one of the epic weapon quests in EQ1, all on your own simply by thinking and gathering clues from NPC chatter?
Like @BruceYee said in his post, I would much rather be able to figure out the puzzles and quests in game, without feeling forced to look up a guide online.
There are ways of making a tough death penalty seem a good experience, like Combat Fatigue where you have to hang out in a tavern for a while. Taking Xp and corpse runs, that's old school we need to leave behind.
Clearly perma death of one's character is an idea whose time has come.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Reminds me of the Diplomacy system that Vanguard was going to use...It was going to change the gaming world forever, except it never really worked.....
It worked well enough up to the level it stopped at, just like their Crafting system. We get so few new ideas in MMOs that I think we should forget none of them. Fair enough as you say it had problems, but we need radical ideas like that to revitalise what is one of the most by-the-book genres.
I think MMOs have taken off in a direction where people zip from quest marker to quest marker. Doing dungeons are about how fast can you get the run done. To RP dismay we are stuck on this loop where we dont get to stop and look around or experience story any more. In ESO they so many awesome dungeons that have awesome stories. I never got to experience any of the stories. I had to goto youtube to watch them.
For me, people who love RP and to explore will love this system. Im one of the people who love this crap. I came from PnP games to EQ1 to RP in a world I could visually see. I was in awe the whole time. Im ready for this slower game and how players will interact with the world and each other.
Take simple dialog in Pantheon.
What is it? Last time I checked it was simply a click fest of responses. There is no intellectual exploration, critical thinking, or intelligent approach to the content, merely clicking down the decision trees looking for the best result.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
Now I know some will complain about the technical problems with EQs questing, but this is an issue of improving a good idea, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is, instead of dumbing down the system with interactive click reading, you implement spell checkers, thesauruses, and add other measures (for instance don't allow the NPC to simply eat an item if they don't have decision tree for it).
Doing this would improve upon EQs questing, keeping the heart of its system of play and expanding it, improving it, giving it more depth and intelligent play approaches.
This is the same with their Perception system. From what I have seen, it is merely a run around "hunt and peck" style system where the player is just looking for physical triggers as their "exploration" approach. This is a problem I have with such physical triggers, there is no thought to them, they are just "dumb animal" traps requiring no intelligent interaction of the player.
EQ had its problems, but the features, even with their troubles, were the heart of what made the experience what it was. Remove all those, you end up with yet another mainstream point and click game that has no soul.
Im not sure you played EQ1 by what you are describing here. EQ1 quests were convoluted. Often making no sense as to what you did next. Key [words) were all you needed to type to get the next NPC reaction. Pantheon will have you looking in the world for clues to figure things out. Will there end up being online guides. Sure, people make money that way and not everyone enjoys exploring or figuring out puzzles. And I am sorry, but I am long past typing a response to a NPC, pls let me click. There is no less depth in the conversation then just typing a key [word].
Reminds me of the Diplomacy system that Vanguard was going to use...It was going to change the gaming world forever, except it never really worked.....
It worked well enough up to the level it stopped at, just like their Crafting system. We get so few new ideas in MMOs that I think we should forget none of them. Fair enough as you say it had problems, but we need radical ideas like that to revitalise what is one of the most by-the-book genres.
I think MMOs have taken off in a direction where people zip from quest marker to quest marker. Doing dungeons are about how fast can you get the run done. To RP dismay we are stuck on this loop where we dont get to stop and look around or experience story any more. In ESO they so many awesome dungeons that have awesome stories. I never got to experience any of the stories. I had to goto youtube to watch them.
For me, people who love RP and to explore will love this system. Im one of the people who love this crap. I came from PnP games to EQ1 to RP in a world I could visually see. I was in awe the whole time. Im ready for this slower game and how players will interact with the world and each other.
Take simple dialog in Pantheon.
What is it? Last time I checked it was simply a click fest of responses. There is no intellectual exploration, critical thinking, or intelligent approach to the content, merely clicking down the decision trees looking for the best result.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
Now I know some will complain about the technical problems with EQs questing, but this is an issue of improving a good idea, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is, instead of dumbing down the system with interactive click reading, you implement spell checkers, thesauruses, and add other measures (for instance don't allow the NPC to simply eat an item if they don't have decision tree for it).
Doing this would improve upon EQs questing, keeping the heart of its system of play and expanding it, improving it, giving it more depth and intelligent play approaches.
This is the same with their Perception system. From what I have seen, it is merely a run around "hunt and peck" style system where the player is just looking for physical triggers as their "exploration" approach. This is a problem I have with such physical triggers, there is no thought to them, they are just "dumb animal" traps requiring no intelligent interaction of the player.
EQ had its problems, but the features, even with their troubles, were the heart of what made the experience what it was. Remove all those, you end up with yet another mainstream point and click game that has no soul.
Im not sure you played EQ1 by what you are describing here. EQ1 quests were convoluted. Often making no sense as to what you did next. Key [words) were all you needed to type to get the next NPC reaction. Pantheon will have you looking in the world for clues to figure things out. Will there end up being online guides. Sure, people make money that way and not everyone enjoys exploring or figuring out puzzles. And I am sorry, but I am long past typing a response to a NPC, pls let me click. There is no less depth in the conversation then just typing a key [word].
Sounds like you didn't quest much in EQ.
Some of the quests were odd in their design, but a lot had issues of people skipping logic steps (looking up hints online), which is why they would seem odd, out of place, or make no sense. Sometimes they were issues of the key words being misspelled, issues with bugs and the like, etc... Then of course there was the dreading NPC eating the quest item with no response as to why.
That said, many where quite well designed and some had very cool hidden steps where you had to really pay attention to the talk of the NPCS outside of the target quest NPC (Neriak for instance).
Whatever problems there were, they were an issue with implementation, not concept. Text based input, properly implemented forces players to think, research, and provide interaction. I am not talking about simple "read the text, respond with the shown trigger word", that is no different than clicking quests (and while EQ had those, it was not all that existed). What I am saying is text questing similar to the style of the old text adventures and EQ had some of this implemented (triggers for many quests could only be triggered by having knowledge obtained elsewhere).
Panthon so far as it appears, seems to just provide text clicking and going out and looking for location pop-ups. From what I have seen, it is pretty dumbed down.
Lastly, I really don't care if people cheat online, I don't play with that concern. My concern was always what I did in game and how it affected me. A person cheating their own game by looking up the hints online is irrelevant to my game play.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
<snip>
When I played EQ1, I didn't do any of that. Quests were too hard to figure out on your own and completely unforgiving if you made a mistake. Like everyone else, I looked up the quests on Allakhazam to see what I needed to say and items I needed to give to the NPC. Even then, you had to be super careful not to mess up.
Can you honestly say you did one of the epic weapon quests in EQ1, all on your own simply by thinking and gathering clues from NPC chatter?
Like @BruceYee said in his post, I would much rather be able to figure out the puzzles and quests in game, without feeling forced to look up a guide online.
Did you somehow infer that I thought having an NPC eat an item you spent hours working on as a good feature? Is that what you got from my discussion? I thought I was pretty clear about some things being problems, but that the overall concept was what needed to be improved upon? You did understand that did you not?
What you describe is the problems with their implementation, not the game play concept itself.
Losing your item is not a good game play mechanic and I think Brad even stated in the past that such things were limitations/complications of the time, not intended design focus.
The problems with misspelled trigger words, issues with synonyms, etc... and issues with losing your items can be easily handled with today's tech.
If that is your concern that is...
If your argument is that the quests would be too complicated and so people would just look up the answers... well... you seem to be making my point as to why these games are being dumbed down for mainstream and who their real audience is.
There are ways of making a tough death penalty seem a good experience, like Combat Fatigue where you have to hang out in a tavern for a while. Taking Xp and corpse runs, that's old school we need to leave behind.
Clearly perma death of one's character is an idea whose time has come.
I never understood people arguing for death penalties that essentially forced the person to stop playing the game. I find that to be completely counter to game play. Game penalties should encourage players to improve, practice, etc... and continue them playing the game, not force them to go sit in a virtual area while one dumbly sits and watches TV outside of the game. Beyond stupid design IMO.
Comments
What
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Me personally, EQ1 I found as a Necro or any other caster, naked I was still very effective. Now a Ranger, Tank, you get where I am going. They were mostly useless. Its nice that with Pantheons death penalty, all classes will be on a equal footing when they die. Will have to see how it plays out.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
However, the Pantheon Death penalty never changed. Even on the Kickstarter Brad had posted about it being somewhere between EQ - VG which the current Pantheon death penalty meets. With that said, I also want a more harsh death penalty, and I think not having naked corpse runs is a bad idea, which I’ll continue to argue for until release - but its disingenuous to say that its changed or become less harsh.
Is that an issue with the game mechanic or their customer service? I suspect more the latter.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The thing is, I think they are going the wrong way.
To compare to the EQ death penalty, back in EQs prime it was most peoples first online graphical mmorpg. Player ability has increased just because players have played through similar systems many multiple times. Technology has increased so you dont go link dead anywhere near as much. Lag has been greatly diminished.
These are all reasons that the death penalty should be more harsh, not lessened. The lesser death penalty is going to seem like nothing. Playing P99 currently is a prime example. The exp penalty has no weight compared to original EQ. It simply doesnt matter.
When VR/Pantheon is trying to make a game that makes players rely on each other and has a slower pace of combat where reputation matters...if the death penalty isnt harsh all of those things fail. None of that matters.
We can make some educated guesses on why they have chosen the direction they have but the outcome remains the same. I think it is the wrong wrong decision and is very obviously not going to sustain players in the long run.
Remember in wow, you had the un-trade slot for opening locks and enchanting.
Two situations could happen that scare people when carrying rare items :
- too far from home.
- in a group and can't leave.
Another idea could be a "temporary" spell or buff to not loose you body gear or weapon.
This allows you to take a chance on a hard mob.
Just some ideas
There are key aspects to which made EQ what it was. Remove those and you don't get a new experience, you get another flavor of mainstream. Which oddly enough is exactly what I (and I assume others) were seeking of Pantheon, to be another "flavor" of EQ.
Raiding is not what made EQ what it was (Raiding was just what its focus became), it was the naked corpse runs, combined with very long travel, dangerous zones of mobs that would pursue you to the zone line. It was the risk vs the reward, where going deep into a dungeon was very risky and if unprepared could result in an entire night spent trying to recover.
EQ was layers and layers of risks. It was the small things that people take for granted today, and often claim is "infringements" on personal play because it is an "inconvenience" to them. These are the things that were removed from games over the years and it is these things that VR has omitted from Pantheon, which is why I can relate to his argument.
There are tons of small elements of play that people dismiss, which I think was an amazing recipe to which made EQ what it was. Games today did not evolve on that concept of risk vs reward, they sought to proclaim it a sickness that had to be cured. They did not see those elements of play as why EQ was a great game, they saw them as getting in the way of "fun(tm)", which misses the point.
Pantheon is not seeking to take what made games like EQ great in play and then use that as a template to innovate, rather they are doing what every other MMO out there has done, they are "repairing" their perception of flaws of EQ, which will result in another mainstream game of a different flavor.
What is it? Last time I checked it was simply a click fest of responses. There is no intellectual exploration, critical thinking, or intelligent approach to the content, merely clicking down the decision trees looking for the best result.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
Now I know some will complain about the technical problems with EQs questing, but this is an issue of improving a good idea, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is, instead of dumbing down the system with interactive click reading, you implement spell checkers, thesauruses, and add other measures (for instance don't allow the NPC to simply eat an item if they don't have decision tree for it).
Doing this would improve upon EQs questing, keeping the heart of its system of play and expanding it, improving it, giving it more depth and intelligent play approaches.
This is the same with their Perception system. From what I have seen, it is merely a run around "hunt and peck" style system where the player is just looking for physical triggers as their "exploration" approach. This is a problem I have with such physical triggers, there is no thought to them, they are just "dumb animal" traps requiring no intelligent interaction of the player.
EQ had its problems, but the features, even with their troubles, were the heart of what made the experience what it was. Remove all those, you end up with yet another mainstream point and click game that has no soul.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some of the quests were odd in their design, but a lot had issues of people skipping logic steps (looking up hints online), which is why they would seem odd, out of place, or make no sense. Sometimes they were issues of the key words being misspelled, issues with bugs and the like, etc... Then of course there was the dreading NPC eating the quest item with no response as to why.
That said, many where quite well designed and some had very cool hidden steps where you had to really pay attention to the talk of the NPCS outside of the target quest NPC (Neriak for instance).
Whatever problems there were, they were an issue with implementation, not concept. Text based input, properly implemented forces players to think, research, and provide interaction. I am not talking about simple "read the text, respond with the shown trigger word", that is no different than clicking quests (and while EQ had those, it was not all that existed). What I am saying is text questing similar to the style of the old text adventures and EQ had some of this implemented (triggers for many quests could only be triggered by having knowledge obtained elsewhere).
Panthon so far as it appears, seems to just provide text clicking and going out and looking for location pop-ups. From what I have seen, it is pretty dumbed down.
Lastly, I really don't care if people cheat online, I don't play with that concern. My concern was always what I did in game and how it affected me. A person cheating their own game by looking up the hints online is irrelevant to my game play.
What you describe is the problems with their implementation, not the game play concept itself.
Losing your item is not a good game play mechanic and I think Brad even stated in the past that such things were limitations/complications of the time, not intended design focus.
The problems with misspelled trigger words, issues with synonyms, etc... and issues with losing your items can be easily handled with today's tech.
If that is your concern that is...
If your argument is that the quests would be too complicated and so people would just look up the answers... well... you seem to be making my point as to why these games are being dumbed down for mainstream and who their real audience is.