Has the power of choice been taken away while I wasn't looking?
All one has to do to avoid spoilers and other dastardly things that can ruin the full release of BG3 is to avoid to reading about them. How does having a choice to play this game in Early Release take away from the full release?
Are we this fragile and jealous about others that you cannot accept it when people get to experience something ahead of you. This is just like beta when we used to try to scour the internet and every site that had beta leaks to get some crumbs about a game we are interested in playing. Only difference is this search is merely a click away and far more accessible.
There is no point in excoriating Larian. They are doing what they have done before and will continue to do.
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
ROLE playing game is just that, the ROLE you play. Just because i got a cursory glimpse of some characters traits when I played through as a Neutral good mage, does not mean I have experienced the full bite of my next run through as a Neutral evil rogue. Add in the fact that I am playing with a group of 2-3 long time friends who are all capable of adding a new flavor to the play though makes even this first chapter an absolute delight. I am 33 hours in (total) and loving every minute of my experience. I have chosen NOT to play a single player game yet, but that is more from a lack of time than worrying about spoilers. I don't look at this game as a cake to be eaten and then eventually voided out. I plan to replay this beast happily until they finally give me a multiplayer version of KCD or actually make a new Elder scrolls game. I say, Get involved early and often. Live it, be part of it. Don't wait until its all done , the mistakes are the true flavor. The roles you play the decorations. I say BUY it NOW!! Tomorrow may bring a runaway bus or something equally as bad, if you miss your Dex save, you may never get the chance.
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Aye, it also hasn’t been stated anywhere that this early purchase is a way of funding. There really is no “need” to do it like this for Larian.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"The problem is that an RPG is its story and once you know that story, the game generally holds significantly less value after that. "
That is an individual's opinion. Some people play RPG's over and over, and don't mind that they already know the story. The idea is to see how different roles play in the world of the game. I frequently play RPG's and MMORPG's just to be able to play in the game's world, not because of the story itself.
In fact, the more scripted the story is, the more you are forced along rails, the less I like the game.
If you are one who wants a story to unfold and that's your main attraction to the game, just don't get into the Early Access. For others, just being able to play in the game is enough, even if they already know the story.
"The problem is that an RPG is its story and once you know that story, the game generally holds significantly less value after that. "
That is an individual's opinion. Some people play RPG's over and over, and don't mind that they already know the story. The idea is to see how different roles play in the world of the game. I frequently play RPG's and MMORPG's just to be able to play in the game's world, not because of the story itself.
In fact, the more scripted the story is, the more you are forced along rails, the less I like the game.
If you are one who wants a story to unfold and that's your main attraction to the game, just don't get into the Early Access. For others, just being able to play in the game is enough, even if they already know the story.
Considering I've played the Elder Scrolls games for several years each, Neverwinter Nights for 2+ years and have done many runs with Baldur's gate and Dragon Age Origins, knowing the story isn't the main attraction.
The first time experiencing the story is its own type of fun but being able to go back and try different characters, different choices, evil, good, Assassin, Saint, or "whatever" is the main part of the fun for me.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Aye, it also hasn’t been stated anywhere that this early purchase is a way of funding. There really is no “need” to do it like this for Larian.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Giving the full amount to Larian now for 1/3 of a game also shrinks Larian's desire to actually finish the last 2/3rds. At some point, they would have their maximum return, why bother to build more? What if they liked the results of EA so much, they want to do another EA sale on Act 2 (at another $60)? Can we really accept companies charging $180 for a complete game?
Customers get the behavior they reward.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Aye, it also hasn’t been stated anywhere that this early purchase is a way of funding. There really is no “need” to do it like this for Larian.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Giving the full amount to Larian now for 1/3 of a game also shrinks Larian's desire to actually finish the last 2/3rds. At some point, they would have their maximum return, why bother to build more? What if they liked the results of EA so much, they want to do another EA sale on Act 2 (at another $60)? Can we really accept companies charging $180 for a complete game?
Customers get the behavior they reward.
Because that would instantly ruin all the goodwill they have been building for over two decades? It seems all companies are considered evil scum, no matter their track record. Larian has been proving the opposite with both DOS titles already. They go beyond what they have to do, just look at their enhanced versions which have been completely free.
Seems like credit and trust can’t be earned anymore.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Aye, it also hasn’t been stated anywhere that this early purchase is a way of funding. There really is no “need” to do it like this for Larian.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Giving the full amount to Larian now for 1/3 of a game also shrinks Larian's desire to actually finish the last 2/3rds. At some point, they would have their maximum return, why bother to build more? What if they liked the results of EA so much, they want to do another EA sale on Act 2 (at another $60)? Can we really accept companies charging $180 for a complete game?
Customers get the behavior they reward.
This is getting ridiculous. You guys really need to confine your paranoid conspiracies to places where it fits instead of assuming all studios are equally shady.
Larian has never done anything that should put them on the same list of questionable fly-by-night operators like Sergey Titov - quite the opposite when they give away Enhanced and definitive editions of their games to everyone who already bought the original, non-definitive versions absolutely free.
Larian has never been anything other than one of the good guy studios.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I played through Knights of the Old Republic twice, both sides.
Years later while playing an mmorpg, KotOR comes up, i remember this because it surprised me when i heard one guy say he's played it 17 times? wtf?
Mentioned before, most people in EA are devotees whom will play it to death. Where my only goal will only be to finish it eventually, same as i'm doing with DOS2 atm.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Aye, it also hasn’t been stated anywhere that this early purchase is a way of funding. There really is no “need” to do it like this for Larian.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Giving the full amount to Larian now for 1/3 of a game also shrinks Larian's desire to actually finish the last 2/3rds. At some point, they would have their maximum return, why bother to build more? What if they liked the results of EA so much, they want to do another EA sale on Act 2 (at another $60)? Can we really accept companies charging $180 for a complete game?
Customers get the behavior they reward.
This is getting ridiculous. You guys really need to confine your paranoid conspiracies to places where it fits instead of assuming all studios are equally shady.
Larian has never done anything that should put them on the same list of questionable fly-by-night operators like Sergey Titov - quite the opposite when they give away Enhanced and definitive editions of their games to everyone who already bought the original, non-definitive versions absolutely free.
Larian has never been anything other than one of the good guy studios.
I actually agree with you here, but maybe not in the way you might think. Setting a precedent of a full price sale for a fraction of a product will eventually lead companies to 'adopt' that as a new business model, especially if it becomes profitable. That's the real danger. It's not really a dig at Larian, it's a dig at customer's behavior.
Since game development is a business, there's no guarantee that another company won't come along and simply buy Larian. I totally agree that Larian has been one of the good guy studios. Their good reputation wouldn't stop a company like Tencent from buying them out.
My point was, no one can accurately predict the future. Things change. When customers start rewarding specific business practices and/or products with massive sales and huge profits, competing companies will follow those precedents. When the product in question is an incomplete product by the company's own admission, expect this to become the norm. Then it's only a matter of time (and greed) before each fraction of a game costs as much as the finished product. Care to guess how long it takes that 1/3 of a game to become 1/4 or 1/5 or worse?
Sure, I may be a bit pessimistic here, but I have faith in corporate greed.
There's a disclaimer frequently used in the financial industry, "Past performance is no guarantee of future results". The same can apply to game companies.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
To borrow a phrase from our mate Lahnmir we are talking about a "fan favourite studio" here and I think that's why people are defending this. I find it hard to understand why posters cannot separate the issue from the studio, if this were an Electronic Arts game would you all be coming on here to defend the early access?
I don't think any studio needs "defending."
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Aye, it also hasn’t been stated anywhere that this early purchase is a way of funding. There really is no “need” to do it like this for Larian.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Giving the full amount to Larian now for 1/3 of a game also shrinks Larian's desire to actually finish the last 2/3rds. At some point, they would have their maximum return, why bother to build more? What if they liked the results of EA so much, they want to do another EA sale on Act 2 (at another $60)? Can we really accept companies charging $180 for a complete game?
Customers get the behavior they reward.
That's a very cynical way of looking at it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Something confuses me. Why is EA for Baldur's Gate 3 bad, but for years Red has been pumping EA titles in his articles. Why is it good for Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and many others, who have asked players for hundreds or thousands of dollars, but now it's bad for Larian to do it for BG3?
(He goes on a bit)
I am not sure you can compare the funding of early access RPG's with crowd funded MMORPG's, they are simply not being developed the same way. I cannot see why being critical of one funding method means you must be critical of another. Should everyone who has concerns about F2P also have concerns about about casino gameplay?
(He also goes on, because we do that)
TL;DR -
This isn't about defending Larian. It's being consistent in how we address and treat Early Access and pre-release development standards. It's about gamers taking personal responsibility for their choices and giving everyone the freedom to make those themselves.
Damn, I really do go on. Sorry.
You call it freedom of choice, I call it freedom to make a mistake which I'm fine with.
As long as others are fine with my choice to call out such behaviors and mock them for their poor choices.
Yes, the view is quite enjoyable from up here on my high horse.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of our disagreement revolves around many of us seeing changes to how games are funded as inherently dangerous. Mendel Summed up what could happen better than I did.
Other posters have a studio led approach, questionable funding gets a pass if the studio has a good reputation. Indeed some go further than that, it is not questionable because this is Larian. I just cannot see that at all, the history of gaming means I lost that level of faith way back.
The fact is we know early access has and will be abused, sure this is not the best game to highlight concerns, but it is high time the gaming industry started talking about this rather than pretending it is fine.
Not a fan of ANY of the present day tactics used by devs to make money before they should be.
EA is like an excuse,don't come asking for refunds because we warned you.The problem is that people are stupid and will buy it anyway.
"mechanics"good...umm no it is still an ancient type game engine and design so not keeping up with the times means it is NOT mechanically or technically sound,it is just CHEAP looking.
I mean if want to get technical I can say an Abacus is technically sound but are we really going to use that phrase on SIMPLE...ancient tech... ideas?
When I saw the marketing video,THAT is the game I expected to see.I thought this was going to be something amazing then turns out nothing more than a misleading marketing video.
I am not some typical old cahoot,I am all for NEW games,i am ALWAYS on the lookout for something amazing or even intriguing,I have money and I am willing to spend it.I look around and i seriously think people in general are soooooooooo bored they will latch onto anything,any game and somehow find some fun value in it.Growing up i had so much to do,so many friends,so many hobbies,sports i didn't have time to breathe and likely why at that time I actually despised games because I wasn't bored and didn't need them.
Bottom line for me,this Larian studios is still stuck in the 90's and not capable of making a game I want to play and THIS BG3 is not a game I want to play.Already been there done that MANY times,you need to offer me something NEW and unique I am not buying any old game because Steam's algorithm says I should lol.
QUE UE this ( ︶︿︶)_╭∩╮ Steam !!.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not a fan of ANY of the present day tactics used by devs to make money before they should be.
EA is like an excuse,don't come asking for refunds because we warned you.The problem is that people are stupid and will buy it anyway.
Bottom line for me,this Larian studios is still stuck in the 90's and not capable of making a game I want to play and THIS BG3 is not a game I want to play
I see, so you don't want to play it so it's a bad practice.
Guess what status it is still in 2 years later from 'release date'?
Like I said, there is too much "my stuff gud, your stuff baaaad" going on in the world right now.
Gamers need to exercise a little control and just not buy into things that look sketchy to them if it's going to be an issue.
Maybe we all need to worry more about what we're doing wrong and our choices and less about if we approve of others choices. I'm not questioning or throwing shade are your choice to play Atlas. If you enjoy the experience then great. Your high horse on the other hand gives me a big eye roll.
Can we get this pinned!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Guess what status it is still in 2 years later from 'release date'?
.
Just for consistencies sake... I bought that too. On Sale.
$4.79
It's all good. I bought Dark and Light and it's been complete trash for most of its life. I reinstalled recently and it's been pretty good so far. It's like fantasy ARK without the pointless pooping. It does feel a lot like an ARK reskin but with more interesting skill progression and a less clunky self-run and single player server experience.
I also bought Pixark which is a buggy mess, but still enjoy it more than ARK to be honest.
Maybe I'm less critical of people buying what some consider "dumb games" because I like to experiment sometimes and buy some real questionable stuff just for the experience.
Where as I stick to reviews and player recommendations, then wait for the first year dlc cycle to pass and snap a great game up. The savings don't even matter to me, it is knowing you are going to get as bug free and dlc complete experience as possible. I can't go back to game a year later just to play a dlc, just to fussy for me.
Guess what status it is still in 2 years later from 'release date'?
.
Just for consistencies sake... I bought that too. On Sale.
$4.79
It's all good. I bought Dark and Light and it's been complete trash for most of its life. I reinstalled recently and it's been pretty good so far. It's like fantasy ARK without the pointless pooping. It does feel a lot like an ARK reskin but with more interesting skill progression and a less clunky self-run and single player server experience.
I also bought Pixark which is a buggy mess, but still enjoy it more than ARK to be honest.
Maybe I'm less critical of people buying what some consider "dumb games" because I like to experiment sometimes and buy some real questionable stuff just for the experience.
Dark and Light has improved ? Now that is news. I really thought that game had faded into obscurity. I did like how they game looked. I must see how much it has changed. Thanks for mentioning it.
I do want to play Ark Survival but the strain I might inflict on my computer on single player has kept me from trying. I bought it when it was dirt cheap during an offer but coupled with insane installation size and prospect of burdening my computer unduly on single play I have not even tried it.
I have considered playing on those private servers but they all seem to be slightly nefarious in that a couple even changed from PvE to PvP so it frightened me off. On the other hand playing alone is so lonely.
Why did you ignore the well thought out comment to respond to a troll?
Why was this not a problem for you with Divinity: Original Sin 1 or 2? Both of these games have the exact same early access road map as BG3 does, but for some reason people have a sudden problem with it for this game.
If a company has an established history of staying true to their word, and using a business model that they have had success with twice now, what would be your reason for them to change this?
The reason you stated that RPG's don't work in Early Access, to me is a non issue unless you dislike replaying games.
How many times have you played Baldur's Gate 1, and 2? what about Deus Ex, The Witcher 3, Final Fantasy VII, Neverwinter Nights? There is a very good reason why companies continue to remaster, and remake classic games, and it is because people love replaying their favorite games, and it transcends genre's because every type of game has been remastered, and met with reasonable success.
While you are entitled to your opinion, you also have a responsibility to be consistent with your message, and not express opinions that are hypocritical, or conflicting to your previous recent opinions.
So why is it okay for you to actively encourage MMORPG's to crowdfund, nickel and dime, and lead on their player base for 5+ years Some MMORPG's do not put heavy emphasis on the story, some of them do, especially since the MMO aspect has been shrinking to where most are just lobby based RPG's, What part of their gameplay loop makes it okay for them to release an unfinished product?
Because as far as I am concerned the end game is the primary focus of most MMORPG's relleased within the last decade, and if you are crowdfunding an MMORPG that doesn't even have an endgame yet, whats the point?
So how is Larian Studios getting a demerit for using Early Access to which they have a proven successful track record with consistently delivering their promises under.
I do not think you are being paid off like the troll stated. I just don't think you did your due diligence in researching Larian Studio's release method for their previous games, which I think should be taken into consideration in your opinion piece.
Sorry for the wall of text, for some odd reason I am not able to get the formatting and quotations to work properly on here.
Because I don't think I wrote about either of them. It's possible I did and just felt I had too much negativity in the article already, so I didn't mention it.
Pretty sure I didn't write about them because I don't remember it and don't see either in my notes.
W/R to the rest, context is your friend. I've stated a number of times why an RPG is different from MMOs and other genres. I also would argue that "heavy emphasis on story" may not be the appropriate phrase for any MMO. Certainly some put MORE emphasis than others, SW:TOR comes to mind (and in that case, we didn't see an early access), but heavy? Probably not. Just no point to it because that's not what MMOs are for or how they work. Despite what the marketing for every MMORPG claims, they're rarely build as RPGs. The RP just slips in through player-driven efforts.
...I'd also note that I think you're really missing a pretty key point. My only issue with the game is that they're releasing in Early Access. I mean granted, I usually stay clear of negativity because negativity is just dumb. It requires very little intellectual effort to be negative, so you wouldn't normally see much of it in my articles by design. That said.... my issue with the game is that they're releasing in Early Access. What if they just... released?
I think if the game was 'just' a linear, corridor story-driven experience then perhaps I could (maybe?) understand the not liking early access for an RPG. Yet this game like many games are meant to be a playground wrapped around a story. Like their previous games. Play alone, Play with Friends. Just play. So for the ability to play in the playground? Sure, go ahead with the Early Access. Obviously there are a ton of people who feel that way because it has sold very well so far and will continue to do so up to and beyond launch. (Currently the top selling game on Steam in the world) I don't really think Larian, Wizards, nor the many people who bought it care what opinions some rando on the internet has about should or should nots. The majority of people who bought it already love it. That is what matters.
Well, it is kind of linear. You can take several paths to get there, but there is a definitive story arc. Something major is going on and your character is there to uncover that mystery. Yeah, you can take multiple paths through it, but there is a main plot that'll end up being part of the Wikipedia article in a few months or so.
Plus, the behavior and nature of the companions and NPCs won't change. Miniature Giant Space Hampsters don't vary in their stature between play-throughs. There's only one time that you'll meet them for the first time and be amazed at their squeak of death. After that first time, it's still cute, but it's just not the same.
This isn't a single player RPG. it is a 4 person co op RPG where there can be player interaction.
Fallout76 has proven that player interaction isn't a good enough excuse to release a half baked MMORPG.
The arguments you make to justify giving MMORPG's a free pass could easily fit in to work for story driven RPG's
There will be more content added, and things will change. The Act 1 you are playing now, could be very different from the act 1 we have currently.
There will be new classes, new spells, new ways of approaching the content you have already played through, more random encounters, system changes, and you can play it with up to 3 other players meaning that the player interaction will change every time you play the game. If you weren't clear I was talking about Baldur's Gate III, and not about an MMORPG, but I doubt you could tell the difference based on the way I delivered the content pitch to sound more MMORPG like.
Edit: The more I have been thinking about this line of reasoning, the less it makes sense. For one thing, this argument only holds up for MMORPG's that already have some form of gameplay available to backers. For games like Camelot Unchained that do not have gameplay available for backers for them to get the exempted status of "Player Interaction", and further to that point if you consider player interaction to be outside of the game, then wouldn't BG3 fit under this label since it has an arguably larger player interaction presence than the majority of MMORPG's do?
My issues with FO76 had very little to do with story. For that instance, I'm playing New World and you won't hear me complaining about their giving story away. Just because story is there, doesn't mean it's the focus of the game. In an RPG, the story IS the game, there's no way around that. It's like giving a crossword puzzle Early Access. Sure, the devs might change some of the words around, but solving the "release" version is still going to be trivial when you already know the majority of the words.
You're effectively trying to say I'm wrong because Scrabble has words too and I didn't complain about it, when there is very clearly a difference between crossword puzzles and Scrabble. Yes, you can also have friends help you with the crossword puzzle, and yeah you might solve it slightly differently each time you go through it, but each time, you solve it already knowing before you get to them what many of the words are. That kind of robs the them of their entertainment value.
In BG3, there's only one time that you're going to meet each potential companion for the first time and only one time that you'll learn what the secret of the game's plot is. Those are things that won't be resolved with new content. New content is just new content, the old content is still gone.
Again, BG3 is a fine game. No one is saying it sucks. I'm playing it this weekend. When they release, I'll recommend people buy it, because it's a great game. I just think them releasing it in Early Access is, frankly, just stupid. The only reason to do that for an RPG is so that you can release it unfinished. That's it. With multiplayer games, you're testing and getting telemetry data, optimizing server code and netcode to provide a more stable experience, you're also collecting data to make your clustering more efficient and cost-effective. All that's data you need as a developer that you can really only get from a good beta program, or Early Access as it's now called. RPGs need none of that. They're a story-centric experience, and once you've played that story, you've consumed the major value of the title.
And you don't have to take my word for it, just go look for data. It'll be there. Look at the difference in concurrent and persistent players between a game like WoW and say... let's just really go crazy and say Skyrim. Both of them are relatively anomalous in their genres, so it's a fair comparison. What do you think you'd see if you compared the two games and looked at concurrent users and persistent users over time? You'll see that both have a massive initial spike in concurrency and that the spike drops off over time, but the rate of falloff for Skyrim will be much higher. Same for persistence, though the drop will be slower for both games, but WoW will still show larger percentages of persistent players than Skyrim. Why is that?
It's because as a general rule, people play through Skyrim once, maybe twice if they want to do it for each faction, and then they uninstall. With WoW, they play to max and then play that max level character for a while doing raids over and over or maybe levelling another character or ten. People will generally play an MMO long after they've "beaten" the game and completed the main storyline. That's because the core entertainment value of an MMO is not the story. That's just extra. The core value is other players. That's not true of an RPG.
It's subjective of course, but using your examples: I got Divinity:OS2 for $27. Crowfall Kickstarter started at $34 and you would have had full access for years. Camelot Unchained was $25.
If D:OS2 or CF or CU Kickstarted at full price for the game I would have done the same thing I am doing with BG3... wait for a sale.
Red seems to have a different take in that it's bad to release an incomplete RPG... which I KIND of can agree with, but its really no worse than other companies releasing things like Life is Strange Episode 1,2,3,4,5...
So to me it's more of a value proposition. They set my expectations with D:OS and D:OS2 and I haven't seen a reason to buy in at full price, but if others do, more power to em. I'll catch up when the do the inevitable Steam Sales prior to the game being complete.
That's a totally fair way to approach it. In fact, I typically judge games by something similar. If they get an hour of my time per dollar spent, it's a good game. That's partly why I actually buy multiple copies of games like Kerbal Space Program and give them away. It's just that good of a game.
But in this case... I just can't support the idea of releasing a game like an RPG in an incomplete state. [edit: That is to say that I can't support the claim. The game's ready to release or it's not. There' s nothing wrong with adding to a game post-release.]
The problem is that it's probably only true of an RPG. I'm struggling to think of another genre that would compare. I think the only near comparison is a book, because there's a single finite story and you can add all the content you want to either, but once you've consumed that finite content, it's consumed.
Comments
All one has to do to avoid spoilers and other dastardly things that can ruin the full release of BG3 is to avoid to reading about them. How does having a choice to play this game in Early Release take away from the full release?
Are we this fragile and jealous about others that you cannot accept it when people get to experience something ahead of you. This is just like beta when we used to try to scour the internet and every site that had beta leaks to get some crumbs about a game we are interested in playing. Only difference is this search is merely a click away and far more accessible.
There is no point in excoriating Larian. They are doing what they have done before and will continue to do.
They have put out two other games, both well received. So far this game, even though it's not finished and is lacking content is well received by people looking for this type of game.
It's going to be finished just like their other games were finished.
They are offering what is essentially a pre-order and you can play the unfinished product.
It's cut and dry. People are buying this because they are expecting to get in on the game eary as opposed to get in on an early game.
Fan Favorite or not, they have been up front with what they are offering. Some people just can't handle that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
That is an individual's opinion. Some people play RPG's over and over, and don't mind that they already know the story. The idea is to see how different roles play in the world of the game. I frequently play RPG's and MMORPG's just to be able to play in the game's world, not because of the story itself.
In fact, the more scripted the story is, the more you are forced along rails, the less I like the game.
If you are one who wants a story to unfold and that's your main attraction to the game, just don't get into the Early Access. For others, just being able to play in the game is enough, even if they already know the story.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
The first time experiencing the story is its own type of fun but being able to go back and try different characters, different choices, evil, good, Assassin, Saint, or "whatever" is the main part of the fun for me.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Larian has never done anything that should put them on the same list of questionable fly-by-night operators like Sergey Titov - quite the opposite when they give away Enhanced and definitive editions of their games to everyone who already bought the original, non-definitive versions absolutely free.
Larian has never been anything other than one of the good guy studios.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As long as others are fine with my choice to call out such behaviors and mock them for their poor choices.
Yes, the view is quite enjoyable from up here on my high horse.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Other posters have a studio led approach, questionable funding gets a pass if the studio has a good reputation. Indeed some go further than that, it is not questionable because this is Larian. I just cannot see that at all, the history of gaming means I lost that level of faith way back.
The fact is we know early access has and will be abused, sure this is not the best game to highlight concerns, but it is high time the gaming industry started talking about this rather than pretending it is fine.
EA is like an excuse,don't come asking for refunds because we warned you.The problem is that people are stupid and will buy it anyway.
"mechanics"good...umm no it is still an ancient type game engine and design so not keeping up with the times means it is NOT mechanically or technically sound,it is just CHEAP looking.
I mean if want to get technical I can say an Abacus is technically sound but are we really going to use that phrase on SIMPLE...ancient tech... ideas?
When I saw the marketing video,THAT is the game I expected to see.I thought this was going to be something amazing then turns out nothing more than a misleading marketing video.
I am not some typical old cahoot,I am all for NEW games,i am ALWAYS on the lookout for something amazing or even intriguing,I have money and I am willing to spend it.I look around and i seriously think people in general are soooooooooo bored they will latch onto anything,any game and somehow find some fun value in it.Growing up i had so much to do,so many friends,so many hobbies,sports i didn't have time to breathe and likely why at that time I actually despised games because I wasn't bored and didn't need them.
Bottom line for me,this Larian studios is still stuck in the 90's and not capable of making a game I want to play and THIS BG3 is not a game I want to play.Already been there done that MANY times,you need to offer me something NEW and unique I am not buying any old game because Steam's algorithm says I should lol.
QUE UE this ( ︶︿︶)_╭∩╮ Steam !!.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I do want to play Ark Survival but the strain I might inflict on my computer on single player has kept me from trying. I bought it when it was dirt cheap during an offer but coupled with insane installation size and prospect of burdening my computer unduly on single play I have not even tried it.
I have considered playing on those private servers but they all seem to be slightly nefarious in that a couple even changed from PvE to PvP so it frightened me off. On the other hand playing alone is so lonely.
Because I don't think I wrote about either of them. It's possible I did and just felt I had too much negativity in the article already, so I didn't mention it.
Pretty sure I didn't write about them because I don't remember it and don't see either in my notes.
W/R to the rest, context is your friend. I've stated a number of times why an RPG is different from MMOs and other genres. I also would argue that "heavy emphasis on story" may not be the appropriate phrase for any MMO. Certainly some put MORE emphasis than others, SW:TOR comes to mind (and in that case, we didn't see an early access), but heavy? Probably not. Just no point to it because that's not what MMOs are for or how they work. Despite what the marketing for every MMORPG claims, they're rarely build as RPGs. The RP just slips in through player-driven efforts.
...I'd also note that I think you're really missing a pretty key point. My only issue with the game is that they're releasing in Early Access. I mean granted, I usually stay clear of negativity because negativity is just dumb. It requires very little intellectual effort to be negative, so you wouldn't normally see much of it in my articles by design. That said.... my issue with the game is that they're releasing in Early Access. What if they just... released?
Well, it is kind of linear. You can take several paths to get there, but there is a definitive story arc. Something major is going on and your character is there to uncover that mystery. Yeah, you can take multiple paths through it, but there is a main plot that'll end up being part of the Wikipedia article in a few months or so.
Plus, the behavior and nature of the companions and NPCs won't change. Miniature Giant Space Hampsters don't vary in their stature between play-throughs. There's only one time that you'll meet them for the first time and be amazed at their squeak of death. After that first time, it's still cute, but it's just not the same.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
My issues with FO76 had very little to do with story. For that instance, I'm playing New World and you won't hear me complaining about their giving story away. Just because story is there, doesn't mean it's the focus of the game. In an RPG, the story IS the game, there's no way around that. It's like giving a crossword puzzle Early Access. Sure, the devs might change some of the words around, but solving the "release" version is still going to be trivial when you already know the majority of the words.
You're effectively trying to say I'm wrong because Scrabble has words too and I didn't complain about it, when there is very clearly a difference between crossword puzzles and Scrabble. Yes, you can also have friends help you with the crossword puzzle, and yeah you might solve it slightly differently each time you go through it, but each time, you solve it already knowing before you get to them what many of the words are. That kind of robs the them of their entertainment value.
In BG3, there's only one time that you're going to meet each potential companion for the first time and only one time that you'll learn what the secret of the game's plot is. Those are things that won't be resolved with new content. New content is just new content, the old content is still gone.
Again, BG3 is a fine game. No one is saying it sucks. I'm playing it this weekend. When they release, I'll recommend people buy it, because it's a great game. I just think them releasing it in Early Access is, frankly, just stupid. The only reason to do that for an RPG is so that you can release it unfinished. That's it. With multiplayer games, you're testing and getting telemetry data, optimizing server code and netcode to provide a more stable experience, you're also collecting data to make your clustering more efficient and cost-effective. All that's data you need as a developer that you can really only get from a good beta program, or Early Access as it's now called. RPGs need none of that. They're a story-centric experience, and once you've played that story, you've consumed the major value of the title.
And you don't have to take my word for it, just go look for data. It'll be there. Look at the difference in concurrent and persistent players between a game like WoW and say... let's just really go crazy and say Skyrim. Both of them are relatively anomalous in their genres, so it's a fair comparison. What do you think you'd see if you compared the two games and looked at concurrent users and persistent users over time? You'll see that both have a massive initial spike in concurrency and that the spike drops off over time, but the rate of falloff for Skyrim will be much higher. Same for persistence, though the drop will be slower for both games, but WoW will still show larger percentages of persistent players than Skyrim. Why is that?
It's because as a general rule, people play through Skyrim once, maybe twice if they want to do it for each faction, and then they uninstall. With WoW, they play to max and then play that max level character for a while doing raids over and over or maybe levelling another character or ten. People will generally play an MMO long after they've "beaten" the game and completed the main storyline. That's because the core entertainment value of an MMO is not the story. That's just extra. The core value is other players. That's not true of an RPG.
That's a totally fair way to approach it. In fact, I typically judge games by something similar. If they get an hour of my time per dollar spent, it's a good game. That's partly why I actually buy multiple copies of games like Kerbal Space Program and give them away. It's just that good of a game.
But in this case... I just can't support the idea of releasing a game like an RPG in an incomplete state. [edit: That is to say that I can't support the claim. The game's ready to release or it's not. There' s nothing wrong with adding to a game post-release.]
The problem is that it's probably only true of an RPG. I'm struggling to think of another genre that would compare. I think the only near comparison is a book, because there's a single finite story and you can add all the content you want to either, but once you've consumed that finite content, it's consumed.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다