Emotions more than facts.

delete5230

Were all saddened and disturbed over the most recent newsletter. It leaves many of us perplexed as to it's true meaning and everyone is trying desperately to read between the lines in both a positive or negative way, hoping they can find some good within the words. 

At first glance I wanted to say "I-told-you-so"..... I can be a real asshole, this is the largest reason I'm disliked here. 

Instead I have to sit back and look at the real reason most here are the majority, only to be let down.  Emotionally driven. 



I finally nailed it !......

Emotions:
It's human nature to want something good.  Be driven by nice words on paper, and say I want that !

Fact:
But the key here is "can it be done" ?





"MOST" will drive up my driveway as I'm building a personal helicopter to fly myself around the neighborhood and say cool !...Can I take it for a spin when it's done ?

"The FACT DRIVEN MECHANIC" would say, the engine is made of tin cans and runs on lighter fluid, can't work.  



To many people here are driven by emotions, I wish I was !!!!!...... It's so much nicer to be that way, it's fun.  It's living life as a loose garment.  It's too stressful to be fact driven...... I wish I was more like you people.

 

All the signs were their recently.... Lets all hope for the best   

Scot

I think we go from emotional to fact based depending on the subject matter. You can certainly see on here how being a fan of a particular game colours many posters views. It is very hard to remain impartial, some might say that's not human but the domain of androids. We can but try are best for a fact based approach, I don't think we can ask for more.

Amathe

You predicted a small budget, short staffed, indy company making a niche game would struggle? Impressive. You sir are Nostradamus.

Nanfoodle

I backed this game twice. Once in my name and once in my wife's name. I hope it does come out in my lifetime =-) If Pantheon flops, sure I will be disappointed for a short moment but it would be brief and would soon fit on the list of many games I thought looked to have potential and would just move on to play one of many games I own. Its a meh for me. Till it flops, I will be GLAD to follow the game and talk about it.     

Gorwe

So...which one is more important? I'll let you decide. Give you some time.

Nanfoodle

Torval said:

I actually agree with you delete. These indie MMO projects sell "hopes and dreams" to emotionally driven groups of people looking to relive the MMO glory days.

There are games that do that but VR has not been one of them. By far they are the most subtle minded buch I have seen in this indie movement.  

Gdemami

Scot said:

It is very hard to remain impartial, some might say that's not human

...you are spot on.

Rational thinking(logic) is inhuman....oh wait...

goldwheat

Nanfoodle said:

There are games that do that but VR has not been one of them. By far they are the most subtle minded buch I have seen in this indie movement.  

Every public interaction from VR since 2014 has either been or included an emotional plea for more money. 
How have they NOT been selling "hopes and dreams" for almost 7 years, Nanfoodle?
FFS, they burned 2 years on Project Faerthale, and were, by their own admission, building it wrong the entire time.
This ONE communication absolves them of almost 7 years of dishonesty?  Nuh uh.  Nope.

Nanfoodle

goldwheat said:

Nanfoodle said:

There are games that do that but VR has not been one of them. By far they are the most subtle minded buch I have seen in this indie movement.  

Every public interaction from VR since 2014 has either been or included an emotional plea for more money. 
How have they NOT been selling "hopes and dreams" for almost 7 years, Nanfoodle?
FFS, they burned 2 years on Project Faerthale, and were, by their own admission, building it wrong the entire time.
This ONE communication absolves them of almost 7 years of dishonesty?  Nuh uh.  Nope.

They have not been dishonest. If you have some proof of that, post it. At the end of a update or video they do ask for support but they have not been selling mounts, skins and spaceships. Just a subtle if you would like to pledge. They do not hype they are the answer to all MMO WOWs like many games. They just talk about their features and refuse to bash any game. As for hopes. When you pledge, this is some of the things you agree too... Even VR admits this is a high risk endeavor. 

__________________________________________________________________________________

VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items.

While VR will make a best faith effort to complete, release and support PRotF, game development is a high risk endeavor. For any number of reasons, VR may not be able to complete PRotF, offer access to the game, or may not be able to deliver some or all items listed in the Pledge Packages.

VR will make a best effort to provide the reward(s) offered as part of subscription plans, shop items, or future virtual in-game items, but delivery is not guaranteed.

VR does not offer refunds under any circumstances including but not limited to cases when it is unable to deliver all of part of a PRotF or a Pledge Package.
___________________________________________________________________________________

goldwheat

Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.

Nanfoodle

goldwheat said:

Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.

Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL

Kyleran

Nanfoodle said:

goldwheat said:

Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.

Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL

The dishonesty is they have long said they have enough resources to deliver the promised game but it would go faster if more money was raised.

Now it appears if angel investors aren't located (soon) they will be unable to complete the game within a reasonable time, ergo, implying might well be time to throw in the towel.

Nanfoodle

Kyleran said:

Nanfoodle said:

goldwheat said:

Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.

Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL

The dishonesty is they have long said they have enough resources to deliver the promised game but it would go faster if more money was raised.

Now it appears if angel investors aren't located (soon) they will be unable to complete the game within a reasonable time, ergo, implying might well be time to throw in the towel.

You have no way of knowing if they were dishonest or circumstances have changed. I have reread this update a few times. I think they see that the slow pace they are going very well may let them finish the game but not in a timely manner that will make Pantheon relevant. I think they are more looking for more funding to speed up the process over not having enough to snail along and be done in another 2-4 years.  

Mendel

Nanfoodle said:

Kyleran said:

Nanfoodle said:

goldwheat said:

Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.

Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL

The dishonesty is they have long said they have enough resources to deliver the promised game but it would go faster if more money was raised.

Now it appears if angel investors aren't located (soon) they will be unable to complete the game within a reasonable time, ergo, implying might well be time to throw in the towel.

You have no way of knowing if they were dishonest or circumstances have changed. I have reread this update a few times. I think they see that the slow pace they are going very well may let them finish the game but not in a timely manner that will make Pantheon relevant. I think they are more looking for more funding to speed up the process over not having enough to snail along and be done in another 2-4 years.  

VR said "we have the money to do this".  Several times.  Even from Brad's lips.  Now, they're saying "we don't have the money".  What changed?  Did they underestimate the cost, or something else?  If so, when?

The public is told to believe in VR.  But they haven't been consistent in their message, specifically regarding financing.  Sorry, but contradictory statements push my 'belief buttons'.

(It seems pretty difficult to underestimate the cost of employees on a project where no one is receiving a paycheck.  Labor costs are by far the most expensive part of any project.)

Cute.Water.Dog

PUBLISHER PLS

Wizardry

Nostalgic....old schhol,these are facts we see often by gamers and yes they are driven by emotions.

I don't carry any real stereotype though because I simply look for a game that has qualities I want to play.It doesn't matter about nostalgic or I grew up playing this game or that game or I loved anime so I love anime games,it doesn't work that way with me.
My simplified version of the present circumstance is the same as the first time I commented on a KS'r game,you can NOT make a proper game like that.
Well sorry I mean a proper HQ robust game,sure you can make a "tin can" game on whim on a shoe string budget with little knowledge or skill but those games don't count to me.

You have to first and foremost really want to make a great game that you would be proud of forever.If the business side of things won't allow it,then don't bother making it.

The thing is that for MOST of these studios this is a job,this is their work,their livelihood to pay the bills,so it will always be a business first and a game second and maybe never a passionate heart felt design.

I have stated many times that I could design a really good game,yo uthink i am the only one ...lmao,obviously not,so theere lies your proof,these studios know what makes a game AAA,they simply can't or won't or both.

Wizardry

Oh and btw @Delete..
I don't hate you and try not to hate anyone it is really bad for your mental well being to go around hating people or even games for that matter.When I say something it is simply just  how I feel with no hate towards anyone or anything.

SorensinThames

Worth mentioning they did not say they are running out of money as many people on this forum are touting as if they even read the Producer's Letter, because had they actually read it and then actually processed to their brain what the contents actually said, they would understand that what VR said was, in order to meet the demands of getting this game out faster, they are going to need more funds to make their tiny little indie team bigger. It's really pretty easy to understand, they aren't even asking US for more money, they are actively looking for large investors/publishers that meet their criteria ie: won't change the vision

Kyleran

It's called knowing how to read between the lines...

"we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe."

So, if they don't get more money, they will not be able to complete development in a reasonable timeframe, ergo, what really is the point of continuing forward.

As Kenny once said, "sometimes you got to know when to fold em, and when to run."

BruceYee

Nanfoodle said:

You have no way of knowing if they were dishonest or circumstances have changed. I have reread this update a few times. I think they see that the slow pace they are going very well may let them finish the game but not in a timely manner that will make Pantheon relevant. I think they are more looking for more funding to speed up the process over not having enough to snail along and be done in another 2-4 years.  

Now that emotion thing Delete was talking about became true in your post.

Facts

1. They said they had enough money to finish the game

2. They said Brad passing away will have no impact on the progress/completion of the game.

3. The other day they said they "need" more "money" & "manpower" to continue.

1 & 2 is completely different than 3. If it is as you say and the "circumstances have changed" then why didn't they let anyone know? They aren't Square Enix or Blizzard they are a small group of devs that all work remotely on their free time... why did they feel like they were so important they couldn't communicate simple messages immediately to people who have given them hundreds/thousands of dollars? Didn't a Pantheon dev go to speak about "The future of gaming" recently with Smed? So he did that while he knew his game was in a may not even release state? All while STILL leaving pledges open on their site for people who aren't well informed about the game to give them more money. That IS "dishonesty".

Hengist

I kinda wish the old interviews with Brad and his former team member were up on F-13.net.....

I bought hook, line and sinker into Vanguard, but right now, this sort of feels much like Vanguard 2.0, where they needed someone to come in at the last second to try to save the title. I realize there isn't the accused drug use, infidelity, and all the other things that circled post Vanguard launch, but it just "feels" like Pantheon is in a similar place.

I hope that impression is dead wrong, but after Vanguard, I had a hard time buying "vision", (and what was there of Vanguard, I loved). Personal opinion is that MMO's struggle to meet deadlines and goals, and feature creep is a real thing. For me, the real choice is to sit on the sidelines, and not pay attention until a game is released, or to be disappointed if a game delays, doesn't have features that it once claimed it would have and so on....

That's probably the biggest reason I've stayed off MMORPG (That and it's really gone downhill post Bill Murphy! Miss ya guy!) I use to live and breathe it, and now I'm actually happier judging a game for what it has when I get to play it, rather than bemoaning what it doesn't have.

delete5230

Wizardry said:

Oh and btw @Delete..
I don't hate you and try not to hate anyone it is really bad for your mental well being to go around hating people or even games for that matter.When I say something it is simply just  how I feel with no hate towards anyone or anything.

Thanks @Wizardry
I'm working on calming down anyway.  Neurology Doctor pulled my drivers licence for 6 months, and put me on NASTY meds.... researched heavy how crappy this stuff is, nicked named the "nasty drug", as if I need more nasty attitude in my life.  Found CBD oil from pot plants work absolutely much better and leagle too.  May get a medical marijuana card soon anyway.  ALL my many doctors approve except Neurology because they find it threatening to the pharmaceutical crap thing they have going on.  Surprising how many doctors agree !!!



MY opinion:
VR is a bunch of "time wasters" that have "no passion" where many of us thought this was their main selling point.  

I THINK, they would not work for free ever. NO money stop working !

Deceitful from the beginning.  I THINK they collected money for a long time before they started, using words and web sites to see if it were even worth it financially.

Jappa is a very strange dude that doesn't understand priorities to make a game world first, then character building.

ALL of them are boastful and will not except modern programming, where their own style is awful.


In my three years of following this game, their lack of knowledge became more apparent, and showed themselves as a group of old timers trying one last time to cash in. 

Lost all respect of what once was.  

Scot

Gdemami said:

Scot said:

It is very hard to remain impartial, some might say that's not human

...you are spot on.

Rational thinking(logic) is inhuman....oh wait...

Gdemami, having you post about rational thought has made my day mate.

Scot

Well if it takes two extra years I don't see the problem. It is only a problem if they don't have the funds to push on at all. Fingers crossed, we can't have another failure, I know some of you think that might be healthier for the MMO market, but not me.

delete5230

Scot said:

Well if it takes two extra years I don't see the problem. It is only a problem if they don't have the funds to push on at all. Fingers crossed, we can't have another failure, I know some of you think that might be healthier for the MMO market, but not me.

Well, two extra years could be a "potential problem" too. 
As I always say how far are they.  How far along in two years.  10% >40% ?
At what % will they release ?


This is a general statement for all games,
People have this common misconception on delays. They say "the longer the delay the better the game"....... Well not if the game is in real bad condition and extreme low percentage.

It's still a prerogative of done or ready by developers.... It could be a five year delay and only be 10% !    

Scot

delete5230 said:

Well, two extra years could be a "potential problem" too. 
As I always say how far are they.  How far along in two years.  10% >40% ?
At what % will they release ?


This is a general statement for all games,
People have this common misconception on delays. They say "the longer the delay the better the game"....... Well not if the game is in real bad condition and extreme low percentage.

It's still a prerogative of done or ready by developers.... It could be a five year delay and only be 10% !    

I agree that a delay for this reason won't make the game better in terms of polish, it is just to make sure there is enough of a game to play. As you say we don't know how completed it is, but until launch that's the case with every game.