Loss in a game whether it's analog or a video game is still loss. No extra punishment needed.
I don't disagree with this.
It's true that just "losing" still feels like "aw shucks." I'm not a "bad loser" though so it never goes beyond that.
But it doesn't feel dangerous. I can go into an area, fight and die over and over again and if there is no loss, it can still be fun but there is no sense of "danger excitement" that if I succeed then "amazing" but if I lose ....
And it's a sort of sliding scale.
In Lineage 2 if you die in pve you lose (or did loss) 4% of your experience. I felt that was fair. If you die during a siege you would lose 1%. I also thought that was fair.
But let's say I would lose 4% in a siege. I think it would up the stakes but given the amount of deaths it would be very discouraging over the course of the event. Especially given the leveling difficulty.
So, I suppose it's up to the player to determine what is dangerous and fun and what is dangerous and not worth it.
Back to my PvE example of Vanguard and the spider cave. That was a LOT of fun. Going back for my corpse that is. However, if there was no corpse run and therefore no danger and risk I don't think it would be so memorable after all these years.
Instead of just going in, dying and then having to plan a great caper to get my stuff back I would have gone in, looked around, died and then thought "ok what else can I do" without another thought about it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That version of full loot /consent didn't last very long. It was a case where the implementation didn't mesh with player's mindsets. And proof positive the developers didn't understand their players.
Dev: I can loot everything? Here ya go. Glad to help.
Player: I can loot everything? Don't mind if I do. /camp
Also, I expect it created a lot of work for their customer support teams.
I think that's where the trust could come.
In Lineage 2, as I mentioned elsewhere, you had to trust your clan mates and quickly learned if they were worth it or not. We were always running to get someone's dropped items. And items in Lineage 2 can be worth a HUGE amount.
I think it comes down to player expectations and knowing what type of game they were playing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Turns out Keep on the Borderlands is a no go for f2p. Strange that it would be suggested in a guide supposed to be f2p only. Hopefully that doesn't become an ongoing issue. More Korthos for now then, Heh, I'll let you know how the reaper thing turns out when I get to that point. Sounds iffy just be the name alone.
I just noticed this in the post you linked:
DDOFREEQUESTS: Grants all non-expansion packs in the game for free - Expired August 31, 2020
And it turns out that is going to be a problem for you going forward, as this guide now assumes you have all the Non-Expansion content in the game.
My advice as it where, is just get ViP for 1 month, for $15, this will do a few things for you.
ViP EXP bonus: It is as it sounds, you get a Bonus to Exp just having a active Vip, So you don't have to do as many quests.
Weekly Gold Roll: for some nice boons.
Access to all Non-Expansion content: It is as it sounds, and honestly a good deal all things said and done if you are just testing the waters.
Elite Open: This alone is worth the $15 a month IMHO, and for anyone starting why I suggest taking a 1 month ViP trial of the game. This allows you to open any difficulty at the start, so you don't need to do the Normal > Hard > Elite process. I would suggest just doing Hard, as a first life character, especially if you are a well designed character, as this will give you what is called a Bravery Bonus. and you will be able to fly through the levels.
But, gonna be honest, you can get to 5th pretty easy just doing the Free Stuff, and following the Gold Chalices as opposed to the guide itself, don't forget to get some slayers and hunt down the rares in the Outdoor Zones.
And doubling up on the good loot quests at the start, like running Dirks till you get at least 1 Muckbane.
Yes, I have come to discover that myself when glancing through the remainder of the guide. The questing advice is largely useless to f2p such as myself that didn't take advantage of that code.
I'm considering whether to continue on with that build by trying to grasp whatever useful scraps may remain on the bones or just picking another guide to follow. I'm sure plenty of good bits remain but they will take a lot of hunting and pecking to scavenge.
VIP would be worth $15/month I'm sure, but I'm already financially committed to ESO while supporting my fiance's play as well, so I'm having a bit of trouble convincing myself I can afford to add more on top. I am working fairly hard at it so it is quite possible I'll wear myself down eventually.
Maybe I'll do annuals six months apart if I succeed in undermining my restraint, or perhaps they offer good sales occasionally that will crush my resistance.
Anyway, I'll carry on in some fashion. It's too fun to put aside entirely.
As I said, there is more than enough F2P content for you to very easy get to 5th without any problems or issues.
My advice however would still be just to play a pure pally, they are one of the more bomb-proof classes IMHO.
This is what I roll for Perma Death, and, legit, I consistently 5th, without a single death.. 6th happened to be an unlucky level for me, but keep in mind this was doing Reapers, so this build should destroy stuff doing Normal & Hards.
Human Paladin 15 Str 10 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha
Stat Raise: (every 4 levels) Str: Just focus on Str, and put all your rank up points this is what helps you kill mobs,.
Spells: (Start at 4th) Ok, at 4th you get your 1st spell. It's a toss up between Divine Favor and Cure Light Wounds.
If you use a hire, use Divine Favor, if you want to go pure solo, use Cure Light Wounds. You can change your spells at any Tavern or Rest Shrine.
That starter Amber Great Axe is a great starting weapon and cuts through mobs like no one's business, I suggest you take it, and then just keep an eye out for any good 2H weapon.
Enhancements: This will get you to level 4 easy. Knight of the Chalice: Core: Slayer of Evil 1st Tier: Improved Second Strike (Max this) Knight's Authority (1 Point) Core: Courage of Heaven 2nd Tier: Divine Might (Max Points)
This should put you around 5th level now.
Give this a try and see how it feels.
Also, what we would do when I was playing, was as we got gear, we would keep on hand some great clubs or mauls, for throwaway combat with slimes, so if you see a decent 2H Blunt weapon, keep that for the slimes and other weapon damaging mobs like Rust Monsters.
Anyway, again, just follow the Golden Chalices for the quests, keep things at level, don't try to go over, if you are 3rd, keep your quest running to 3rd and down, and never pass up the chance to do the fast and easy ones few times over, like Harvendasher for farming Durks for a Muckbane.
With that said, and I know I have suggest melee, only because that is what you showed me, but, legit, DDO does not really need guides, the best way to play is find how you want to play, if you want to be sneky rogue, or a jack of all trades bard, or maybe you just love the idea of charging into the frey and killing things with a big weapon, or casting spells.. find what moves you.. and make that happen.
Trust me, what you want to do in DDO, you can, and you will be much happier doing what you enjoy then trying to do what some people tell you is the FOTM OP build.
I restarted following your recommendations and things have been going quite smoothly so far. Much appreciated. I'll keep chasing those Chalices, as you suggest.
Being familiar with the nuisance of slimes and rust monsters from back in my tabletop days I'll be sure to have some fodder for them on hand.
I figured a Paladin would provide a comfortable starting experience, being somewhat self-supporting. Once I'm more familiar with the game I hope to be able to do more my own thing. Thee game offers a lot of customization, but along with complexity. It's a wee bit daunting, or at least feels so for me at this point.
Loss definitely doesn't weed out trolls. In fact, I found in early EQ2 that trolls were emboldened by death penalties since they could wipe a group and everyone would suffer xp penalties.
Also, it's fallacy to think that trolls can't form good groups or be very successful in a game. Look at the Goons in EVE for instance. And EVE had one of the harshest death penalties of all time.
There isn't a relationship between death penalty and prevalence of trolls, and if there was, it would be in favor of effective trolling and not the other way around.
Just a something I want to talk about with DDO and Death.
DDO has very little in the way of a Direct Penalty, you lose a 10% Bonus off the base Exp of the Quest if anyone in the party dies. Yay, a slight teamwork motivation to make sure people live, right?
Wrong. That 10% bonus led to entire guilds and TR junkies, not only refusing to Pug, but also blacklisting anyone that died on their runs, and if you trolled a raid, that would result in several if not all the major guilds, and almost every active Raid channel blacklisting you.
This was such an issue that SSG changed the Bonus to be individual, so that if someone died, it only affected their personal reward, not the groups.
Now in larger, more solo focused MMO's this is not an issue, as trolls can vanish into the crowd, but in smaller games like DDO, they become known quite quick.
as for Goon in EvE, as I understand them, are not Trolls in and of themselves, IIRC everyone IN Goon is there to build the guild up, increasing their presence and power, and screwing up or screwing around is not something they abide, while they might as a unit cause havoc and chaos towards others, with very little inhibitions on what they are willing to do to destroy and cripple opponents, there is no internal trolling among them.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It strongly discourages exploration though, unless you have a lot of time.
Same for losing levels...
It is a trade-off. It discourages exploration and experimentation and it can be less relaxing, but it can create excitement and situations with interesting decision making.
Which is why I generally like both designs for different reasons.
Late in my EQ career I found a good group of players and we went to difficult places and thrived...it was very satisfying..Sure we died at times and had constant danger, but it was really quite a thrill too. You learned whom you could trust and who knew how to play.
That another thing that EQ corpse runs had: trust.
Sometimes, another player may be able to get your corpse when you can't. Remember that dreaded command of your corpse into the hands of another player [/consent]? They could loot your corpse fully.
That version of full loot /consent didn't last very long. It was a case where the implementation didn't mesh with player's mindsets. And proof positive the developers didn't understand their players.
Dev: I can loot everything? Here ya go. Glad to help.
Player: I can loot everything? Don't mind if I do. /camp
Also, I expect it created a lot of work for their customer support teams.
That's a really good point!
Well from what I understand, It caused a lot of drama, and even a few people getting doxxed, we didn't use that term back then, but it was the same thing, people would get their Address, phone numbers, etc, posted on public forums, because that looted someone's corpse, and the guild banded together to get revenge.
Because no one liked the idea of being taken advantage of like that, that resulted in a mob mentality to punish these people, which ended up in them getting death treats (very uncommon) but, people listing them on spam callers sites and signing them up for junk mail, was a very common tactic, all in all, basically trolling them in real life.
Sony, not wanting to deal with that level of bad press for such a pointless feature simply removed it.
That is what I remember.. but I am sure there will be others who remember it differently.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Loss in a game whether it's analog or a video game is still loss. No extra punishment needed.
So what are you "losing", then? Pride?
In a sense, yes. Doesn't everyone?
I play to win and dying in a game is the opposite of winning.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I doubt that mmorpg will be the same as it was over 20-25 years ago. Like many had said it was a new thing. It was a game with unbelievable vast Hugh world with countless hours to Years to get lost into since many of us couldn’t really do since we all have our “real” lives to live too, but it was really fun to be able play with or against other people around the world.
Now days there’s nothing but cookie cutters games with fake hypes to get quick cash not caring to actually make a new different types of mmorpg since all cpus & platforms have been getting more & more powerful that you really can make a really good indepth mmorpg games. I don’t mean by great graphics, but great engaging gameplay instead of auto attack, 1-0, macros, button mashing type of game. Also needs to stop with linear storylines, or same starting areas for everyone , or classes. I know it’s easier said than done....I also know mmorpgs are usually the hardest games to make cause not only Hugh vast world to built but to make it work for thousands or 10s of thousands or 100s of thousands or even millions of players in the same game world. I can understand that but I just feel that the creators of mmorpgs nowadays could give a crap what players think but how much they could cash out or possibly finally be the WoW killer which have been failed so many times. I really want them to start thinking of all the mmorpgs that have been around the past 20-25 years & see what works & doesn’t work & also what have never been done to make it NEW or FRESH which ever makes sense.
I know I have no idea what it takes to even make a mmorpg but from all the mmorpgs I have played over the years I have many ideas that I think it’ll bring back the good old glory days of mmorpg but in a new perspective.
All games needs a story to make a game, but I feel it would make a whole different game when you have a vast endless story you introduce the players to the game world but it’s up to the gamers how they want go that they don’t have to follow the story but make their own path so they feel like they r in control of their own toons.
I feel that instead of having a few or a lot of classes that they should get rid of classes but it is still there but mold into one so the players can actually make their choice how they want play the game.for example you could be jack of trade a little of mage, healer, hunter, rogue, warrior,bard or whatever but have only so much skill points for your skill tree that you’ll have all these trades but you’ll only do a normal amount of damage with all the trades or focus on just up close & personal tanker/dips type & be powerful. Up close but weak far away. I could go on there. Also I really think they should take in consideration use the idea of gameplay from For Honor with the engaging fights. I was really disappointed that it only ended up being a multi player type of game just think if it could be a mmorpg. Not with the insane graphics but dumb it down a little to make it work & have in a vast Hugh world instead of a bunch of small maps world it would be epic!!
I have a lot more ideas that I can rattle off my mind but that’s for another time. All I can say is I still hope there will be finally a true great mmorpg game.... hopefully the creators will actually listen to us instead of just making cookies cutters cash cow or trying too hard to make a WoW killer & ended up killing themselfs....
Instead of just going in, dying and then having to plan a great caper to get my stuff back I would have gone in, looked around, died and then thought "ok what else can I do" without another thought about it.
See I would never die and then go do something else. I would consider it a personal challenge to go back, try something different and keep trying until I completed it successfully.
When ESO was new and had 3 separate faction zones to quest in, when you were questing in those other zones and all the mobs in those had been up-scaled to "Veteran ranks" and the game difficulty also had yet to be nerfed down to the ridiculously easy state it's in today there were plenty of challenges.
Questing in those veteran rank areas was not easy so I died often. That motivated me to take a deeper look at the skills I was using and the gear I was wearing so I experimented with different builds until I could do the content without dying.
There was noting but dying that I needed to motivate me. I made it my mission in the game to figure it out. I tested my new builds specifically on the content that had been kicking my ass until it no longer did.
That's how I play.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Instead of just going in, dying and then having to plan a great caper to get my stuff back I would have gone in, looked around, died and then thought "ok what else can I do" without another thought about it.
See I would never die and then go do something else. I would consider it a personal challenge to go back, try something different and keep trying until I completed it successfully.
When ESO was new and had 3 separate faction zones to quest in, when you were questing in those other zones and all the mobs in those had been up-scaled to "Veteran ranks" and the game difficulty also had yet to be nerfed down to the ridiculously easy state it's in today there were plenty of challenges.
Questing in those veteran rank areas was not easy so I died often. That motivated me to take a deeper look at the skills I was using and the gear I was wearing so I experimented with different builds until I could do the content without dying.
There was noting but dying that I needed to motivate me. I made it my mission in the game to figure it out. I tested my new builds specifically on the content that had been kicking my ass until it no longer did.
That's how I play.
Well, I didn't mean that quite so literally. If I knew I had the chance of surviving I would have continued.
In Vanguard I entered all sorts of group only areas and would continue until I realized that continuing wasn't really going to happen.
I mean, in Lord of the Rings Online I was part of a group that was "under grouped" and leveled and we kept at the Turtle dungeons (I don't remember what it was called) for over 4 1/2 hours.
We didn't have a healer and when we'd get one they would either not be great or in one case, for some reason, didn't heal us. Instead they just wanted to give advice.
So, point being, if the stakes are "upped" if I have stuff in there, then no matter what, I will need to either get a group to help or just have to be a better and more patient player.
And I should add "it's very fun."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Ungood said: As I said, there is more than enough F2P content for you to very easy get to 5th without any problems or issues.
My advice however would still be just to play a pure pally, they are one of the more bomb-proof classes IMHO.
This is what I roll for Perma Death, and, legit, I consistently 5th, without a single death.. 6th happened to be an unlucky level for me, but keep in mind this was doing Reapers, so this build should destroy stuff doing Normal & Hards.
Human Paladin 15 Str 10 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha
Stat Raise: (every 4 levels) Str: Just focus on Str, and put all your rank up points this is what helps you kill mobs,.
Spells: (Start at 4th) Ok, at 4th you get your 1st spell. It's a toss up between Divine Favor and Cure Light Wounds.
If you use a hire, use Divine Favor, if you want to go pure solo, use Cure Light Wounds. You can change your spells at any Tavern or Rest Shrine.
That starter Amber Great Axe is a great starting weapon and cuts through mobs like no one's business, I suggest you take it, and then just keep an eye out for any good 2H weapon.
Enhancements: This will get you to level 4 easy. Knight of the Chalice: Core: Slayer of Evil 1st Tier: Improved Second Strike (Max this) Knight's Authority (1 Point) Core: Courage of Heaven 2nd Tier: Divine Might (Max Points)
This should put you around 5th level now.
Give this a try and see how it feels.
Also, what we would do when I was playing, was as we got gear, we would keep on hand some great clubs or mauls, for throwaway combat with slimes, so if you see a decent 2H Blunt weapon, keep that for the slimes and other weapon damaging mobs like Rust Monsters.
Anyway, again, just follow the Golden Chalices for the quests, keep things at level, don't try to go over, if you are 3rd, keep your quest running to 3rd and down, and never pass up the chance to do the fast and easy ones few times over, like Harvendasher for farming Durks for a Muckbane.
With that said, and I know I have suggest melee, only because that is what you showed me, but, legit, DDO does not really need guides, the best way to play is find how you want to play, if you want to be sneky rogue, or a jack of all trades bard, or maybe you just love the idea of charging into the frey and killing things with a big weapon, or casting spells.. find what moves you.. and make that happen.
Trust me, what you want to do in DDO, you can, and you will be much happier doing what you enjoy then trying to do what some people tell you is the FOTM OP build.
I restarted following your recommendations and things have been going quite smoothly so far. Much appreciated. I'll keep chasing those Chalices, as you suggest.
Being familiar with the nuisance of slimes and rust monsters from back in my tabletop days I'll be sure to have some fodder for them on hand.
I figured a Paladin would provide a comfortable starting experience, being somewhat self-supporting. Once I'm more familiar with the game I hope to be able to do more my own thing. Thee game offers a lot of customization, but along with complexity. It's a wee bit daunting, or at least feels so for me at this point.
Awesome!
Ok.. yes, it feels daunting, because legit, there are a lot of choices, and, it can be very easy to feel like you are gimping your build.
But, really, it's not as bad as some other games like, for example GW2, where if you do not follow the meta everyone else is doing 10x your damage and you're just a waste of space.
DDO is not ever that bad, so don't sweat the little things. Build a solid core, and just go have fun.
Some helpful advice:
Hitting P will bring up your quest list:
At the top you will see Adventures:
This is super handy, because it also shows you what quests you can do that are around your level range.
Yellow will show you which quests you have active/completed, white means you have not started them. It will also show you the difficulty you have completed, Normal/Hard/Elite.
The Quest List, however shows you the Base Level of the Quest, keep in mind as you up the difficulty of the quest, that up's the level of the quest.
IE: Durks is level 2, on Normal (Base). it's level 3 on Hard, and it's level 4 on Elite, keep that in mind if you plan to jump back into a quest.
So if you were 4th level, you could return to Durks and still get some good exp, even tho it's only listed as a level 2 quest.
You will also see Challenges - Wilderness - Patrons.
Check the Patrons from time to time, as you get mail, as this will show you what in game rewards you have earned, above and beyond the 25 DDO points every 100 favor.
Wilderness is only handy if you get into wanting to complete all the content, and truth be told, there can be some fun found in running through the outdoor zones killing everything in your path, looking for rares or building up slayer numbers.
But again, that is more a personal choice on your part, of what you might enjoy from the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In Lineage 2 if you die in pve you lose (or did loss) 4% of your experience. I felt that was fair. If you die during a siege you would lose 1%. I also thought that was fair.
But let's say I would lose 4% in a siege. I think it would up the stakes but given the amount of deaths it would be very discouraging over the course of the event. Especially given the leveling difficulty.
So, I suppose it's up to the player to determine what is dangerous and fun and what is dangerous and not worth it.
So by what you just said, the harsher the death penalty the more discouraging it can be if there are many deaths.
What this means is harsher death penalties are the opposite of harder content. If you make the death penalty harsh then you cant also have extremely hard content that people will die a lot in or otherwise they will be discouraged and not play.
Essentially you are relying on a harsh death mechanics to replace extremely challenging AI and combat sequences.
In Lineage 2 if you die in pve you lose (or did loss) 4% of your experience. I felt that was fair. If you die during a siege you would lose 1%. I also thought that was fair.
But let's say I would lose 4% in a siege. I think it would up the stakes but given the amount of deaths it would be very discouraging over the course of the event. Especially given the leveling difficulty.
So, I suppose it's up to the player to determine what is dangerous and fun and what is dangerous and not worth it.
So by what you just said, the harsher the death penalty the more discouraging it can be if there are many deaths.
What this means is harsher death penalties are the opposite of harder content. If you make the death penalty harsh then you cant also have extremely hard content that people will die a lot in or otherwise they will be discouraged and not play.
Essentially you are relying on a harsh death mechanics to replace extremely challenging AI and combat sequences.
I would rather have the challenging content.
omg
"So, I suppose it's up to the player to determine what is dangerous and fun and what is dangerous and not worth it."
edit: I should probably elaborate.
So "I" and others enjoy harsh death penalties. however, there is always a tipping point and that tipping point would be dependent on each individual.
Just like many players like a challenge or like puzzles or "whatever" but there is going to be a line where that individual player will think it's "too hard" or the puzzles are too esoteric.
And that's all I said.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So you didn't like one of the most beloved games out there. But can you acknowledge that people love it and that perhaps they put a greater value on things that you don't?
You're still dodging the question. Is it "most beloved" because of the death penalty or despite it?
As to this thread... don't glorify the death penalty and I won't chime in with my comments about why glorifying it is messed up.
Doesn't bother you? You can make the best of it? You think it makes you a better player because you modify your game play to avoid its consequences? That's all fine.
But I jumped into this discussion when someone linked an opinion blog saying that the current bad state of MMO communities and the reason why "toxic punks" abound is all about the death penalty.
I quote:
"The golden age can be brought back if the death penalties are reintroduced and the entitled punks self-select out."
Now that is just a deluded and elitist bullshit glorification of the death penalty bordering on necrophilia
My two cents but as someone who loves Souls like games and the Rogue genre I can safely say that in these games the death penalty isn’t punishment because of failing, it is part of the actual gameplay. A mechanic which controls the eb and flow of the entire game, a learning mechanic, a tactical option, a piece of the puzzle. Yes, these games are difficult but death penalties and corpse runs aren’t punishment for playing the game, they are an integral part of actually playing the game.
So, death penalties can add a great deal to an MMORPG, these games will have to be designed to incorporate it in a different way then they have been doing it up till now though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I doubt that mmorpg will be the same as it was over 20-25 years ago. Like many had said it was a new thing. It was a game with unbelievable vast Hugh world with countless hours to Years to get lost into since many of us couldn’t really do since we all have our “real” lives to live too, but it was really fun to be able play with or against other people around the world.
Now days there’s nothing but cookie cutters games with fake hypes to get quick cash not caring to actually make a new different types of mmorpg since all cpus & platforms have been getting more & more powerful that you really can make a really good indepth mmorpg games. I don’t mean by great graphics, but great engaging gameplay instead of auto attack, 1-0, macros, button mashing type of game. Also needs to stop with linear storylines, or same starting areas for everyone , or classes. I know it’s easier said than done....I also know mmorpgs are usually the hardest games to make cause not only Hugh vast world to built but to make it work for thousands or 10s of thousands or 100s of thousands or even millions of players in the same game world. I can understand that but I just feel that the creators of mmorpgs nowadays could give a crap what players think but how much they could cash out or possibly finally be the WoW killer which have been failed so many times. I really want them to start thinking of all the mmorpgs that have been around the past 20-25 years & see what works & doesn’t work & also what have never been done to make it NEW or FRESH which ever makes sense.
I know I have no idea what it takes to even make a mmorpg but from all the mmorpgs I have played over the years I have many ideas that I think it’ll bring back the good old glory days of mmorpg but in a new perspective.
All games needs a story to make a game, but I feel it would make a whole different game when you have a vast endless story you introduce the players to the game world but it’s up to the gamers how they want go that they don’t have to follow the story but make their own path so they feel like they r in control of their own toons.
I feel that instead of having a few or a lot of classes that they should get rid of classes but it is still there but mold into one so the players can actually make their choice how they want play the game.for example you could be jack of trade a little of mage, healer, hunter, rogue, warrior,bard or whatever but have only so much skill points for your skill tree that you’ll have all these trades but you’ll only do a normal amount of damage with all the trades or focus on just up close & personal tanker/dips type & be powerful. Up close but weak far away. I could go on there. Also I really think they should take in consideration use the idea of gameplay from For Honor with the engaging fights. I was really disappointed that it only ended up being a multi player type of game just think if it could be a mmorpg. Not with the insane graphics but dumb it down a little to make it work & have in a vast Hugh world instead of a bunch of small maps world it would be epic!!
I have a lot more ideas that I can rattle off my mind but that’s for another time. All I can say is I still hope there will be finally a true great mmorpg game.... hopefully the creators will actually listen to us instead of just making cookies cutters cash cow or trying too hard to make a WoW killer & ended up killing themselfs....
So you didn't like one of the most beloved games out there. But can you acknowledge that people love it and that perhaps they put a greater value on things that you don't?
You're still dodging the question. Is it "most beloved" because of the death penalty or despite it?
As to this thread... don't glorify the death penalty and I won't chime in with my comments about why glorifying it is messed up.
Doesn't bother you? You can make the best of it? You think it makes you a better player because you modify your game play to avoid its consequences? That's all fine.
But I jumped into this discussion when someone linked an opinion blog saying that the current bad state of MMO communities and the reason why "toxic punks" abound is all about the death penalty.
I quote:
"The golden age can be brought back if the death penalties are reintroduced and the entitled punks self-select out."
Now that is just a deluded and elitist bullshit glorification of the death penalty bordering on necrophilia
I know you are talking about Dark Souls but the same can be said about Everquest's death penalty.
I won't say I love it. As I mentioned before in this thread I almost lost my corpses in various stages of looting because I would loot then die and repeat god only know how many times. Partly looted corpses spread out in the area made for a nightmare retrieval. That wasn't the first time in the Fear Plane either where I have had such bad runs. How can I possibly say I loved that? How can I not admit I nearly quit in rage a lot of times but my friends talked me out of it.
I used to spend a lot of time with other guilds and helping them in Fear and Fate. My own guild was very competent and we would have very good runs with no long CR. It was one of the top guilds on the server so you don't expect these types of badly run raids.
However because of the tyranny practiced by top guilds many of my friends were unable to do the planes and I would often try to join and help smaller guilds especially with Fate runs as wizards are needed for those. That often ended in these types of CR. Anyway there wasn't much to do then before Kunark so I spent a lot of time just playing the game doing stuff like this although I was already fully decked out (I had the eye of Cazic-Thule even but I think that came later sorry I'm old and my memory is bad).
You are trying to give an absolute emotion to a mechanic that is very much entwined with the parts I love in Everquest. Of course my view is clouded about where the love for the game starts and the fact that the death penalty had so much to do with the people I relied on to make the experience of playing so great. Without those experiences would I have made those friends or would they have been so close and dependable. You don't rely and depend on people until you are in situations where they show themselves to be dependable. There is no way to divorce these things.
Without those penalties and harsh playing conditions, the extent of your relationships are not really tested and people don't show their best because there is nothing at stake and nothing to lose. I risked everything in the game for my friends and I cannot say that for any game nowadays but that does not mean that I don't enjoy the games I play nowadays but I cannot say I have that deep a bond with the people I play with. Could be a character flaw on my part but those are my sincere thoughts.
The way you compare this to necrophilia and call it glorification shows you have no respect for what others think and you're demeaning us by making that association. Do you have to be so insulting? Why are you feeling so threatened that insults seems to be your answer for a point of view? Can't you understand that people might have a view you disagree with without the need to degrade that. Very disappointed in you.
Loss in a game whether it's analog or a video game is still loss. No extra punishment needed.
So what are you "losing", then? Pride?
In a sense, yes. Doesn't everyone?
I play to win and dying in a game is the opposite of winning.
I like to win, sure. That is not my ultimate goal, which is to have fun. I don't have to win in order to have fun. I get zero joy of pounding inferior opponents (like children in board games) or less skilled participants. I really feel sorry that you can not have fun unless you win. I know plenty of players just like you
I see "dying" as a hurdle, not losing. Maybe you lost a battle, but it will be there when you re-spawn again. I only "lose" a game when I give up and quit. Otherwise, I see adjustments on how to do better in any single battle in the war of winning
To each their own, right
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Instead of just going in, dying and then having to plan a great caper to get my stuff back I would have gone in, looked around, died and then thought "ok what else can I do" without another thought about it.
See I would never die and then go do something else. I would consider it a personal challenge to go back, try something different and keep trying until I completed it successfully.
When ESO was new and had 3 separate faction zones to quest in, when you were questing in those other zones and all the mobs in those had been up-scaled to "Veteran ranks" and the game difficulty also had yet to be nerfed down to the ridiculously easy state it's in today there were plenty of challenges.
Questing in those veteran rank areas was not easy so I died often. That motivated me to take a deeper look at the skills I was using and the gear I was wearing so I experimented with different builds until I could do the content without dying.
There was noting but dying that I needed to motivate me. I made it my mission in the game to figure it out. I tested my new builds specifically on the content that had been kicking my ass until it no longer did.
That's how I play.
Waitaminute...
You just said that "losing is the opposite of winning." How can you lose any fight and go back to try to win it? You already lost. Move on to the next one.
You stated very plainly that this is a binary for you: win vs lose.
Or is this some of the human rationalization going on to stroke egos? I don't poo poo a great rationalization here and there, as I use them myself
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
This topic has made me think of something. Just something now rolling around in my hollow noggin and I figured, eh, what the hell, I might as talk about it here.
I often hear many "Hardcore" gamers talk of the concept of:
Risk vs Reward.
They use this as justification that "harder" content should provide better rewards and such, simply because it is harder content, often really just requiring more exacting memorization of the encounter mechanics, and specific team make up to achieve optimal chances to win. But, this topic has made me think about this concept and how faulty it has become, because, without any kind of actual death penalty, there is no legitimate Risk involved regardless of how hard the content is, because no matter how many times you lose, you just get back up and try again, because don't lose actually lose anything, you have not taken any risk where losing sets you back.
Sure it might be temporally frustrating to lose, often triggered by the waste of time, or the feeling of failure, but, there is no an actual Risk involved.
A lot of Modern MMO's there is no Risk at all, there is no gamble placed on winning where there is a cost for losing.
Imagine if you were talk about Risk vs Reward, and if you won, you could make millions, but if you lost, you simply were no better or worse off then you were at the start.
In a modern MMO, that is what is given to you, when you win, you get reward, but if you lose, you are not set back at all.
Now some people might say that is a "risk" because you can "lose", but in reality there is no more an Actual Risk than say playing the Lottery, where you have a huge risk to lose, but if you don't win, you only tossed in some nominal insignificant amount like a dollar to play anyway.
So even with something that gives a high chance to lose, there is no sense of Risk, without the threat of Actual Loss.
In fact as I think back, one of things that was the biggest issue for me as a player, was losing due to the stupidity of other people which was just frustrating, but, when I think of the Risk, it more about making a bad showing of myself in a Raid, that Risk of Embarrassment or getting a bad reputation, but there was no risk in the sense of anything bad would happen to my character if they lost.
Wow, this topic has given a lot to think about, and mull over. Been great so far! Loving the post!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
So you didn't like one of the most beloved games out there. But can you acknowledge that people love it and that perhaps they put a greater value on things that you don't?
You're still dodging the question. Is it "most beloved" because of the death penalty or despite it?
As to this thread... don't glorify the death penalty and I won't chime in with my comments about why glorifying it is messed up.
Doesn't bother you? You can make the best of it? You think it makes you a better player because you modify your game play to avoid its consequences? That's all fine.
But I jumped into this discussion when someone linked an opinion blog saying that the current bad state of MMO communities and the reason why "toxic punks" abound is all about the death penalty.
I quote:
"The golden age can be brought back if the death penalties are reintroduced and the entitled punks self-select out."
Now that is just a deluded and elitist bullshit glorification of the death penalty bordering on necrophilia
My two cents but as someone who loves Souls like games and the Rogue genre I can safely say that in these games the death penalty isn’t punishment because of failing, it is part of the actual gameplay. A mechanic which controls the eb and flow of the entire game, a learning mechanic, a tactical option, a piece of the puzzle. Yes, these games are difficult but death penalties and corpse runs aren’t punishment for playing the game, they are an integral part of actually playing the game.
So, death penalties can add a great deal to an MMORPG, these games will have to be designed to incorporate it in a different way then they have been doing it up till now though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
That's very well said.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
In a modern MMO, that is what is given to you, when you win, you get reward, but if you lose, you are not set back at all. ... So even with something that gives a high chance to lose, there is no sense of Risk, without the threat of Actual Loss.
Yep. You can easily distill it to a single question:
1) Challenging content, no loss on death: "Can I clear it?" (the answer is often obvious and easy: "I can try") 2) Loss-on-death mechanics: "Should I try it?" (no obvious answer)
In my opinion the first approach appeals more to people looking for mechanical challenges, the second challenges decision making more.
The second also favors people with a lot of time to play, and who can afford losing some of it. The first is a challenge for everybody.
All MMO's favor those with the more time to play. This has been the case since they started, and still remains the case today.
In the case of the two examples presented by tzervo
1) I Can Try - No risk in Loss. 2) Should I try - Risk in Loss.
The first favors those with better Twitch/Muscle Memory to keep going till they master the task or encounter.
Prime example of this, was the Mad King clock tower in GW2, I must have failed that run 100's of times, but, as I worked at it, I would get a bit father, and father each time, till I finally mastered it.
While some would say it was a great challenge, there was no risk in loss, so it was a question not of Risk vs Reward Challenge, but of persistence on my part.
The Second favors players who can gage situations, and better at risk assessment. Ergo, knowing when to fight and when to flight.
Prime example of this was the joke about EQ: Give me the Serenity to accept the Pugs, Strength to kill my Enemies, and the Wisdom to know when to run for the Zone.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
So you didn't like one of the most beloved games out there. But can you acknowledge that people love it and that perhaps they put a greater value on things that you don't?
You're still dodging the question. Is it "most beloved" because of the death penalty or despite it?
As to this thread... don't glorify the death penalty and I won't chime in with my comments about why glorifying it is messed up.
Doesn't bother you? You can make the best of it? You think it makes you a better player because you modify your game play to avoid its consequences? That's all fine.
But I jumped into this discussion when someone linked an opinion blog saying that the current bad state of MMO communities and the reason why "toxic punks" abound is all about the death penalty.
I quote:
"The golden age can be brought back if the death penalties are reintroduced and the entitled punks self-select out."
Now that is just a deluded and elitist bullshit glorification of the death penalty bordering on necrophilia
I know you are talking about Dark Souls but the same can be said about Everquest's death penalty.
I won't say I love it. As I mentioned before in this thread I almost lost my corpses in various stages of looting because I would loot then die and repeat god only know how many times. Partly looted corpses spread out in the area made for a nightmare retrieval. That wasn't the first time in the Fear Plane either where I have had such bad runs. How can I possibly say I loved that? How can I not admit I nearly quit in rage a lot of times but my friends talked me out of it.
I used to spend a lot of time with other guilds and helping them in Fear and Fate. My own guild was very competent and we would have very good runs with no long CR. It was one of the top guilds on the server so you don't expect these types of badly run raids.
However because of the tyranny practiced by top guilds many of my friends were unable to do the planes and I would often try to join and help smaller guilds especially with Fate runs as wizards are needed for those. That often ended in these types of CR. Anyway there wasn't much to do then before Kunark so I spent a lot of time just playing the game doing stuff like this although I was already fully decked out (I had the eye of Cazic-Thule even but I think that came later sorry I'm old and my memory is bad).
You are trying to give an absolute emotion to a mechanic that is very much entwined with the parts I love in Everquest. Of course my view is clouded about where the love for the game starts and the fact that the death penalty had so much to do with the people I relied on to make the experience of playing so great. Without those experiences would I have made those friends or would they have been so close and dependable. You don't rely and depend on people until you are in situations where they show themselves to be dependable. There is no way to divorce these things.
Without those penalties and harsh playing conditions, the extent of your relationships are not really tested and people don't show their best because there is nothing at stake and nothing to lose. I risked everything in the game for my friends and I cannot say that for any game nowadays but that does not mean that I don't enjoy the games I play nowadays but I cannot say I have that deep a bond with the people I play with. Could be a character flaw on my part but those are my sincere thoughts.
The way you compare this to necrophilia and call it glorification shows you have no respect for what others think and you're demeaning us by making that association. Do you have to be so insulting? Why are you feeling so threatened that insults seems to be your answer for a point of view? Can't you understand that people might have a view you disagree with without the need to degrade that. Very disappointed in you.
It's way beyond liking and disliking corpse runs in this thread. What do you think it is if not insulting when someone associates not wanting harsh death penalties with being an entitled punk?
If you feel insulted when I blasted that blog and the author you really should take a look at yourself for defending that point of view.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Instead of just going in, dying and then having to plan a great caper to get my stuff back I would have gone in, looked around, died and then thought "ok what else can I do" without another thought about it.
See I would never die and then go do something else. I would consider it a personal challenge to go back, try something different and keep trying until I completed it successfully.
When ESO was new and had 3 separate faction zones to quest in, when you were questing in those other zones and all the mobs in those had been up-scaled to "Veteran ranks" and the game difficulty also had yet to be nerfed down to the ridiculously easy state it's in today there were plenty of challenges.
Questing in those veteran rank areas was not easy so I died often. That motivated me to take a deeper look at the skills I was using and the gear I was wearing so I experimented with different builds until I could do the content without dying.
There was noting but dying that I needed to motivate me. I made it my mission in the game to figure it out. I tested my new builds specifically on the content that had been kicking my ass until it no longer did.
That's how I play.
Waitaminute...
You just said that "losing is the opposite of winning." How can you lose any fight and go back to try to win it? You already lost. Move on to the next one.
You stated very plainly that this is a binary for you: win vs lose.
Or is this some of the human rationalization going on to stroke egos? I don't poo poo a great rationalization here and there, as I use them myself
What part of dying, considering that a loss, and doing it again, succeeding and considering that a win is so difficult for you to understand?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I play to win and dying in a game is the opposite of winning.
"Not dying" is not winning. Winning is clearing the content and getting the rewards to show for it. Unless you are going for a "not dying" title, which is perfectly fine (I saw its existence mentioned in another thread in some games), you are setting your own arbitrary "victory condition" and expect others to play by it - they won't. Most people are just interested in clearing the content. Even in terms of ego, showing a reward for some content that is cleared is usually what most are after in terms of bragging rights.
Really? So when you kill a single mob in a game that is not winning that fight? It's only a win if you clear all the content and get the phat loot in the chest at the end?
Is the concept of small wins and small losses on the way to an overall win or loss that difficult to understand?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's way beyond liking and disliking corpse runs in this thread. What do you think it is if not insulting when someone associates not wanting harsh death penalties with being an entitled punk?
If you feel insulted when I blasted that blog and the author you really should take a look at yourself for defending that point of view.
Noone painted you, or the totality of those who do not want death mechanics as entitled punks. The blog also recognizes other categories of players: the "skilled", the "casuals" and the "socials". The "entitled punks" are a specific part of the player base with particular characteristics, and they totally earn that title:
He will jump headlong into the risky path and loses. Then he blames lag, teammates, play time, cheats, devs, God, but not himself.
I also admitted - twice - that I like both kinds of games for different purposes. That would make me an "entitled punk" as well when I play GW2. It would make no sense. But I have met this type of players often there.
But you're missing the point that he's associating those entitled punks with the death penalty and further going on to say that bringing back harsh death penalties would get rid of them and bring back some golden age.
Yes the entitled punks exist and if you're going to define them as those who blame things on everyone but themselves. they have always existed whether a game has harsh death penalties or not.
As I have said many times the apparent larger mass of entitled punks in current MMOs has IMO, zero to do with death penalties. It has to do with games being free to play and with publishers courting those who don't like MMOs to play MMOs with features directly imported from shooters: quickie matches with leaderboards and rankings for example.
The guy in the blog you posted goes well beyond just merely liking or disliking death penalties when he makes the illogical leap by conflating death penalty dislike with entitled punks existing in games.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
MMORPG"s never came close to reaching their potential,so if we are talking about 2003/4 then we are just talking about a huge influx of new online gamers and nothing more.
WE did make a decent leap forwards in game designs around 2003/4 and since seen many copy cat games with small variations and size but nothing that takes the next leap.
Instead we have pushed for way more shallow rpg's ,such as ARPG's and Monster Hunter and even older static rpg's like the Baldur's gate copy cat games,so in essence willing to move backwards before forwards.
I would hope we DON'T see another 2003/4 because if we had tha tsudden influx of new mmo players it would mean one lucky mmorpg in that time frame would spell the design for the next 20 years with no more advancement.
Quit giving me crap like Diablo's and Albion online,that is incredibly sub par rpg gaming,like a 1/10 for effort.I want to see the genre advance,get better and not just new lighting techniques aka ray tracing nonsense. Quit trying to sell me some cheap gimmick,make me a complete robust mmorpg with the world,ECo system and plausible realism.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I restarted following your recommendations and things have been going quite smoothly so far. Much appreciated. I'll keep chasing those Chalices, as you suggest.
Being familiar with the nuisance of slimes and rust monsters from back in my tabletop days I'll be sure to have some fodder for them on hand.
I figured a Paladin would provide a comfortable starting experience, being somewhat self-supporting. Once I'm more familiar with the game I hope to be able to do more my own thing. Thee game offers a lot of customization, but along with complexity. It's a wee bit daunting, or at least feels so for me at this point.
DDO has very little in the way of a Direct Penalty, you lose a 10% Bonus off the base Exp of the Quest if anyone in the party dies. Yay, a slight teamwork motivation to make sure people live, right?
Wrong. That 10% bonus led to entire guilds and TR junkies, not only refusing to Pug, but also blacklisting anyone that died on their runs, and if you trolled a raid, that would result in several if not all the major guilds, and almost every active Raid channel blacklisting you.
This was such an issue that SSG changed the Bonus to be individual, so that if someone died, it only affected their personal reward, not the groups.
Now in larger, more solo focused MMO's this is not an issue, as trolls can vanish into the crowd, but in smaller games like DDO, they become known quite quick.
as for Goon in EvE, as I understand them, are not Trolls in and of themselves, IIRC everyone IN Goon is there to build the guild up, increasing their presence and power, and screwing up or screwing around is not something they abide, while they might as a unit cause havoc and chaos towards others, with very little inhibitions on what they are willing to do to destroy and cripple opponents, there is no internal trolling among them.
Because no one liked the idea of being taken advantage of like that, that resulted in a mob mentality to punish these people, which ended up in them getting death treats (very uncommon) but, people listing them on spam callers sites and signing them up for junk mail, was a very common tactic, all in all, basically trolling them in real life.
Sony, not wanting to deal with that level of bad press for such a pointless feature simply removed it.
That is what I remember.. but I am sure there will be others who remember it differently.
I play to win and dying in a game is the opposite of winning.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Now days there’s nothing but cookie cutters games with fake hypes to get quick cash not caring to actually make a new different types of mmorpg since all cpus & platforms have been getting more & more powerful that you really can make a really good indepth mmorpg games. I don’t mean by great graphics, but great engaging gameplay instead of auto attack, 1-0, macros, button mashing type of game. Also needs to stop with linear storylines, or same starting areas for everyone , or classes. I know it’s easier said than done....I also know mmorpgs are usually the hardest games to make cause not only Hugh vast world to built but to make it work for thousands or 10s of thousands or 100s of thousands or even millions of players in the same game world. I can understand that but I just feel that the creators of mmorpgs nowadays could give a crap what players think but how much they could cash out or possibly finally be the WoW killer which have been failed so many times. I really want them to start thinking of all the mmorpgs that have been around the past 20-25 years & see what works & doesn’t work & also what have never been done to make it NEW or FRESH which ever makes sense.
I know I have no idea what it takes to even make a mmorpg but from all the mmorpgs I have played over the years I have many ideas that I think it’ll bring back the good old glory days of mmorpg but in a new perspective.
All games needs a story to make a game, but I feel it would make a whole different game when you have a vast endless story you introduce the players to the game world but it’s up to the gamers how they want go that they don’t have to follow the story but make their own path so they feel like they r in control of their own toons.
I feel that instead of having a few or a lot of classes that they should get rid of classes but it is still there but mold into one so the players can actually make their choice how they want play the game.for example you could be jack of trade a little of mage, healer, hunter, rogue, warrior,bard or whatever but have only so much skill points for your skill tree that you’ll have all these trades but you’ll only do a normal amount of damage with all the trades or focus on just up close & personal tanker/dips type & be powerful. Up close but weak far away. I could go on there. Also I really think they should take in consideration use the idea of gameplay from For Honor with the engaging fights. I was really disappointed that it only ended up being a multi player type of game just think if it could be a mmorpg. Not with the insane graphics but dumb it down a little to make it work & have in a vast Hugh world instead of a bunch of small maps world it would be epic!!
I have a lot more ideas that I can rattle off my mind but that’s for another time. All I can say is I still hope there will be finally a true great mmorpg game.... hopefully the creators will actually listen to us instead of just making cookies cutters cash cow or trying too hard to make a WoW killer & ended up killing themselfs....
When ESO was new and had 3 separate faction zones to quest in, when you were questing in those other zones and all the mobs in those had been up-scaled to "Veteran ranks" and the game difficulty also had yet to be nerfed down to the ridiculously easy state it's in today there were plenty of challenges.
Questing in those veteran rank areas was not easy so I died often. That motivated me to take a deeper look at the skills I was using and the gear I was wearing so I experimented with different builds until I could do the content without dying.
There was noting but dying that I needed to motivate me. I made it my mission in the game to figure it out. I tested my new builds specifically on the content that had been kicking my ass until it no longer did.
That's how I play.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ok.. yes, it feels daunting, because legit, there are a lot of choices, and, it can be very easy to feel like you are gimping your build.
But, really, it's not as bad as some other games like, for example GW2, where if you do not follow the meta everyone else is doing 10x your damage and you're just a waste of space.
DDO is not ever that bad, so don't sweat the little things. Build a solid core, and just go have fun.
Some helpful advice:
Hitting P will bring up your quest list:
At the top you will see Adventures:
This is super handy, because it also shows you what quests you can do that are around your level range.
Yellow will show you which quests you have active/completed, white means you have not started them. It will also show you the difficulty you have completed, Normal/Hard/Elite.
The Quest List, however shows you the Base Level of the Quest, keep in mind as you up the difficulty of the quest, that up's the level of the quest.
IE: Durks is level 2, on Normal (Base). it's level 3 on Hard, and it's level 4 on Elite, keep that in mind if you plan to jump back into a quest.
So if you were 4th level, you could return to Durks and still get some good exp, even tho it's only listed as a level 2 quest.
You will also see Challenges - Wilderness - Patrons.
Check the Patrons from time to time, as you get mail, as this will show you what in game rewards you have earned, above and beyond the 25 DDO points every 100 favor.
Wilderness is only handy if you get into wanting to complete all the content, and truth be told, there can be some fun found in running through the outdoor zones killing everything in your path, looking for rares or building up slayer numbers.
But again, that is more a personal choice on your part, of what you might enjoy from the game.
What this means is harsher death penalties are the opposite of harder content. If you make the death penalty harsh then you cant also have extremely hard content that people will die a lot in or otherwise they will be discouraged and not play.
Essentially you are relying on a harsh death mechanics to replace extremely challenging AI and combat sequences.
I would rather have the challenging content.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So, death penalties can add a great deal to an MMORPG, these games will have to be designed to incorporate it in a different way then they have been doing it up till now though.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I won't say I love it. As I mentioned before in this thread I almost lost my corpses in various stages of looting because I would loot then die and repeat god only know how many times. Partly looted corpses spread out in the area made for a nightmare retrieval. That wasn't the first time in the Fear Plane either where I have had such bad runs. How can I possibly say I loved that? How can I not admit I nearly quit in rage a lot of times but my friends talked me out of it.
I used to spend a lot of time with other guilds and helping them in Fear and Fate. My own guild was very competent and we would have very good runs with no long CR. It was one of the top guilds on the server so you don't expect these types of badly run raids.
However because of the tyranny practiced by top guilds many of my friends were unable to do the planes and I would often try to join and help smaller guilds especially with Fate runs as wizards are needed for those. That often ended in these types of CR. Anyway there wasn't much to do then before Kunark so I spent a lot of time just playing the game doing stuff like this although I was already fully decked out (I had the eye of Cazic-Thule even but I think that came later sorry I'm old and my memory is bad).
You are trying to give an absolute emotion to a mechanic that is very much entwined with the parts I love in Everquest. Of course my view is clouded about where the love for the game starts and the fact that the death penalty had so much to do with the people I relied on to make the experience of playing so great. Without those experiences would I have made those friends or would they have been so close and dependable. You don't rely and depend on people until you are in situations where they show themselves to be dependable. There is no way to divorce these things.
Without those penalties and harsh playing conditions, the extent of your relationships are not really tested and people don't show their best because there is nothing at stake and nothing to lose. I risked everything in the game for my friends and I cannot say that for any game nowadays but that does not mean that I don't enjoy the games I play nowadays but I cannot say I have that deep a bond with the people I play with. Could be a character flaw on my part but those are my sincere thoughts.
The way you compare this to necrophilia and call it glorification shows you have no respect for what others think and you're demeaning us by making that association. Do you have to be so insulting? Why are you feeling so threatened that insults seems to be your answer for a point of view? Can't you understand that people might have a view you disagree with without the need to degrade that. Very disappointed in you.
I see "dying" as a hurdle, not losing. Maybe you lost a battle, but it will be there when you re-spawn again. I only "lose" a game when I give up and quit. Otherwise, I see adjustments on how to do better in any single battle in the war of winning
To each their own, right
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You just said that "losing is the opposite of winning." How can you lose any fight and go back to try to win it? You already lost. Move on to the next one.
You stated very plainly that this is a binary for you: win vs lose.
Or is this some of the human rationalization going on to stroke egos? I don't poo poo a great rationalization here and there, as I use them myself
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I often hear many "Hardcore" gamers talk of the concept of:
Risk vs Reward.
They use this as justification that "harder" content should provide better rewards and such, simply because it is harder content, often really just requiring more exacting memorization of the encounter mechanics, and specific team make up to achieve optimal chances to win. But, this topic has made me think about this concept and how faulty it has become, because, without any kind of actual death penalty, there is no legitimate Risk involved regardless of how hard the content is, because no matter how many times you lose, you just get back up and try again, because don't lose actually lose anything, you have not taken any risk where losing sets you back.
Sure it might be temporally frustrating to lose, often triggered by the waste of time, or the feeling of failure, but, there is no an actual Risk involved.
A lot of Modern MMO's there is no Risk at all, there is no gamble placed on winning where there is a cost for losing.
Imagine if you were talk about Risk vs Reward, and if you won, you could make millions, but if you lost, you simply were no better or worse off then you were at the start.
In a modern MMO, that is what is given to you, when you win, you get reward, but if you lose, you are not set back at all.
Now some people might say that is a "risk" because you can "lose", but in reality there is no more an Actual Risk than say playing the Lottery, where you have a huge risk to lose, but if you don't win, you only tossed in some nominal insignificant amount like a dollar to play anyway.
So even with something that gives a high chance to lose, there is no sense of Risk, without the threat of Actual Loss.
In fact as I think back, one of things that was the biggest issue for me as a player, was losing due to the stupidity of other people which was just frustrating, but, when I think of the Risk, it more about making a bad showing of myself in a Raid, that Risk of Embarrassment or getting a bad reputation, but there was no risk in the sense of anything bad would happen to my character if they lost.
Wow, this topic has given a lot to think about, and mull over. Been great so far! Loving the post!
That's very well said.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In the case of the two examples presented by tzervo
1) I Can Try - No risk in Loss.
2) Should I try - Risk in Loss.
The first favors those with better Twitch/Muscle Memory to keep going till they master the task or encounter.
Prime example of this, was the Mad King clock tower in GW2, I must have failed that run 100's of times, but, as I worked at it, I would get a bit father, and father each time, till I finally mastered it.
While some would say it was a great challenge, there was no risk in loss, so it was a question not of Risk vs Reward Challenge, but of persistence on my part.
The Second favors players who can gage situations, and better at risk assessment. Ergo, knowing when to fight and when to flight.
Prime example of this was the joke about EQ: Give me the Serenity to accept the Pugs, Strength to kill my Enemies, and the Wisdom to know when to run for the Zone.
If you feel insulted when I blasted that blog and the author you really should take a look at yourself for defending that point of view.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Is the concept of small wins and small losses on the way to an overall win or loss that difficult to understand?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yes the entitled punks exist and if you're going to define them as those who blame things on everyone but themselves. they have always existed whether a game has harsh death penalties or not.
As I have said many times the apparent larger mass of entitled punks in current MMOs has IMO, zero to do with death penalties. It has to do with games being free to play and with publishers courting those who don't like MMOs to play MMOs with features directly imported from shooters: quickie matches with leaderboards and rankings for example.
The guy in the blog you posted goes well beyond just merely liking or disliking death penalties when he makes the illogical leap by conflating death penalty dislike with entitled punks existing in games.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
WE did make a decent leap forwards in game designs around 2003/4 and since seen many copy cat games with small variations and size but nothing that takes the next leap.
Instead we have pushed for way more shallow rpg's ,such as ARPG's and Monster Hunter and even older static rpg's like the Baldur's gate copy cat games,so in essence willing to move backwards before forwards.
I would hope we DON'T see another 2003/4 because if we had tha tsudden influx of new mmo players it would mean one lucky mmorpg in that time frame would spell the design for the next 20 years with no more advancement.
Quit giving me crap like Diablo's and Albion online,that is incredibly sub par rpg gaming,like a 1/10 for effort.I want to see the genre advance,get better and not just new lighting techniques aka ray tracing nonsense.
Quit trying to sell me some cheap gimmick,make me a complete robust mmorpg with the world,ECo system and plausible realism.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.