Would be cool if they make a traditional MMORPG that a modern day crowd would enjoy because the only relatable players left for me are 40 year old men that don't mind spending a week killing rats outside a city. (sounded better before I typed it) but yeah I don't think the current generation would want an old school MMORPG + devs make less money doing it it the old way which is the real reason things went the way they did.
Nope gamers are different now and Wow did change everything.
This is why the term Wow CLONE was used.Everyone saw how much money Blizzard was making so they all jumped on that bandwagon.
Over time new gimmicks made loads of money and then a new wave of developers arrived all doing the same thing ...again.
We have gone through a wave of TCG's,Moba's,ARPG's,that is another thing,some wise crack studio creates a NEW term for their game to try and be different while doing a LOT less.
Shooters were around a long time ago but stood for gameplay ONLY,NOW loot and lights coming off the loot and markers on screens and even more laughable>>LEVELS.
So yeah we have veered so far off course there is just no way we can get back on track.All we will see into the future is more of the same,soon one gimmick makes it tons more will soon arrive and we will see yet more NEW terms for games.ALL of which will have NOTHING to do with making games better.
Oh and every 10 years or so we will see VR return and studios cashing in on half assed VR games. The only hope for those that simply want some truly epic game designs is that out of all the nonsense some studio actually stumbles onto game built around the 3 main things,characters,interaction and world building.What Cyberpunk did is NOT world building,that is what i call a light show.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
I actually believe the next evolution of MMO's will come with VR.
That will change MMO's on a whole new level.
I just don't get how a game is delivered (monitor vs headset) changes how a game works. Would VR "evolve" EQ? WoW?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
I actually believe the next evolution of MMO's will come with VR.
That will change MMO's on a whole new level.
I just don't get how a game is delivered (monitor vs headset) changes how a game works. Would VR "evolve" EQ? WoW?
I do agree that VR is going to usher in a new age. However, I don't think VR is going to be there as soon as people think. Part of the reason you (or me) don't see how VR will change things is due to the fact that it's hard not to look at things through the filter of current gen VR. Don't know what the tech will be, but once we get the immersion (and the vertigo) thing figured out, it's going to be really great!
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
I actually believe the next evolution of MMO's will come with VR.
That will change MMO's on a whole new level.
I just don't get how a game is delivered (monitor vs headset) changes how a game works. Would VR "evolve" EQ? WoW?
Ok, MMO's are one of the very few platforms that give you worlds to explore. Like VAST worlds, with biodomes, environments.. rich.. full worlds. And the ONLY platform that gives you these worlds in a way you can share with other players is through an MMO.
VR, especially with things like body tracking, allowing for a fully functioning character model, will change the entire way we can interact with these huge worlds, as well as each other.
Actions replace button presses, and I for one foresee on the horizon is that this will open up a whole new door to social/non-violent interactions, and open up the ability to become immersed into these worlds in a way never before realized, developing rich social interactions.
It will change the MMO landscape from "Lets go mash buttons and kill shit" to "Lets explore this world together"
It will be an intrinsic change, a change of mindset, and the Devs that learn how to take that Social feeling, that feeling that players can BE in this world, as opposed to it just being a grind-fest playpen, will redefine how MMO's get played, and how we play in them.
It will be the difference between Space Invaders Which was a Joystick and 1 button, and Last of Us II which is a dual joystick and 14 buttons. We could say, it's still just a controller and a monitor for input, but as the input devices opened more options, the games grew to fill those options.
So too will happen with MMO's.. but.. Since MMO's Devs have already been about building worlds, they have the best platforms to move this forward.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
This is where I disagree.
If a game wants to achieve big numbers of players AND keep going for years, then the focus has to be on retention. There seems to be a critical mass (in terms of player numbers) that if you can achieve it, the game will keep going long term.
That seems to be about 1.5million regular players.
If you can reach 1.5mil+, then simple word of mouth referrals seems to keep the population high. "Friends don't let friends quit". You are far more likely to keep playing a game if lots of your friends are also playing, even if the game isn't necessarily what you would prefer.
Whilst many mmos have hit this number on launch day, they rarely retain those numbers. This is mostly down to game design, building an mmorpg around single player mechanics means there is a natural ending point plus less need to form social bonds that will keep you in game.
Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that diverse communities are the strongest, so designing an mmo for a wide variety of players is a good strategy for long term retention. You just need to make sure that the various activities for these groups are deep enough to keep the players in game. If the game only has the main quests fleshed out, but has shallow pvp, crafting, exploring etc then that doesn't really count, that's just wasted effort. This is what we've seen with a lot of mainstream mmos - solid pve combat and questing, but shallow everything else.
So, it is my belief that the biggest / best MMORPGs of the future will be the "mega" games: mmorpgs designed for a wide variety of players with well fleshed out systems across the board. They will be more sandbox orientated so as to not have obvious end points. The wide variety of playstyles offered will allow for players to change over time, so if you get bored with pve combat, you can become a crafter, or a pvper, or a roleplayer etc.
There will, of course, always remain room for niche MMORPGs, just like now (i consider most mmorpgs to be pretty niche as they pretty much only focus on pve combat and quests). They will attract their specific fanbase, but when the players inevitably get bored (due to lack of variety) or unmotivated (because they're tastes change) then they'll move on, so retention will be a lot lower. This is exactly what we see with the majority of today's mmorpgs - players join, play for a few months, then move on.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
EQ has not resembled EQ (which was not unique to begin with) in a long long time and the current version of the game is exactly as stated above. Ashes? Well you will see for yourself soon enough. Reality does not always match ideas.
I have not been back to EQ in a few years. As for Ashes, he was discussing cooker cutter not if it would launch at all or with the features they list. No one knows if a game will launch, that I would never argue.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
This is where I disagree.
If a game wants to achieve big numbers of players AND keep going for years, then the focus has to be on retention. There seems to be a critical mass (in terms of player numbers) that if you can achieve it, the game will keep going long term.
That seems to be about 1.5million regular players.
If you can reach 1.5mil+, then simple word of mouth referrals seems to keep the population high. "Friends don't let friends quit". You are far more likely to keep playing a game if lots of your friends are also playing, even if the game isn't necessarily what you would prefer.
Whilst many mmos have hit this number on launch day, they rarely retain those numbers. This is mostly down to game design, building an mmorpg around single player mechanics means there is a natural ending point plus less need to form social bonds that will keep you in game.
Additionally, there is plenty of evidence that diverse communities are the strongest, so designing an mmo for a wide variety of players is a good strategy for long term retention. You just need to make sure that the various activities for these groups are deep enough to keep the players in game. If the game only has the main quests fleshed out, but has shallow pvp, crafting, exploring etc then that doesn't really count, that's just wasted effort. This is what we've seen with a lot of mainstream mmos - solid pve combat and questing, but shallow everything else.
So, it is my belief that the biggest / best MMORPGs of the future will be the "mega" games: mmorpgs designed for a wide variety of players with well fleshed out systems across the board. They will be more sandbox orientated so as to not have obvious end points. The wide variety of playstyles offered will allow for players to change over time, so if you get bored with pve combat, you can become a crafter, or a pvper, or a roleplayer etc.
There will, of course, always remain room for niche MMORPGs, just like now (i consider most mmorpgs to be pretty niche as they pretty much only focus on pve combat and quests). They will attract their specific fanbase, but when the players inevitably get bored (due to lack of variety) or unmotivated (because they're tastes change) then they'll move on, so retention will be a lot lower. This is exactly what we see with the majority of today's mmorpgs - players join, play for a few months, then move on.
Yes, this is the only way forward to better games.
Everything else is "more of the same", and that's just not cutting it. Gamers are ready for this. It's so natural to the human psyche, and what people actually dream of when they think of an online world. Player socialness in a more positive interdependence, feeling needed in whatever you decide to do, full of adventure and wide of scope.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
Ah, the old "EQ cut the cloth" shtick. That never gets old.
We'll see if what Ashes does is something more than homogenized game play. For the crowd that just wants traditional MMORPG game play this might suffice just fine. I'm not sure that will work for me anymore. We'll see. When they finally get to Persistent Alpha (Alpha 2 it is I think) I'll be sure to provide feedback as whatever NDA permits. My crowd-funding pledge is at that level.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
EQ has not resembled EQ (which was not unique to begin with) in a long long time and the current version of the game is exactly as stated above. Ashes? Well you will see for yourself soon enough. Reality does not always match ideas.
I have not been back to EQ in a few years. As for Ashes, he was discussing cooker cutter not if it would launch at all or with the features they list. No one knows if a game will launch, that I would never argue.
So would EQ Next count? Never launched but had "ideas" for destructible voxel worlds and interesting, migrating AI.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm not sure why you replied to me with "I disagree" and then went on to talk about something else.
I never commented on massive player numbers and momentum retention. That is obviously a big reason why WoW is so successful and have said so in the past quite often. The number you pulled out of thin air, 1.5M+, seems rather arbitrary.
There is plenty of evidence that diverse communities are strongest? Really where and in what form? What does that even mean practically speaking?
Then you claim that designing and MMO around many various activities (way too vague) is a good strategy for that retention if the systems are deep enough . By deep I am inferring you mean detailed and engaging to keep each of these diverse groups interested. Except I can't think of one MMO where any single system is "deep and engaging" compared to a more niche title that focuses on it. That is my point, Massively Multiplayer games have more homogenized systems because even within a specific activity there is a lot of diversity of interests on a broad scale. For example, within the group of people that like to craft items, weapons, gear, and building materials there is quite a diversity with what people like and how they want to do those things. A massively multiplayer game has to make their crafting system appeal to all those people and usually ends up satisfying few if any. It is true for those who like to explore, survive, build, play combat, and so on.
In theory your idea that having a game with massive scale sounds good on the surface except no MMO has ever accomplished those things. Whatever "well fleshed out" means, MMOs haven't done that. They have done "scratch the surface" of a system game design. You say they will be sandbox oriented but to my point, not everyone wants a sandbox so an MMO would need to appeal to those who don't want that.
Maybe someday a game will be created that will have many detailed systems in a single server that appeals to a wide array of demographics, but that hasn't been created yet and I don't see it happening anytime soon. Moreover, just having mass people on a server is a negative feature for me now. It only increases the noise in the game experience. The more diversity a game offers, the greater the chance that "Jacko the Clown" will come along and pollute that with a conflicting interest and game play activity.
Maybe your way will work for some massive demographic, but nothing you said interests me in the slightest. I can only see it working against what I want to experience in a game.
My apologies, obviously didn't explain myself particularly well!
My response was directed towards your desire to play more niche, small scale games like FO76 in comparison to larger scale MMOs like WoW and the like.
The 1.5m was indeed pulled out of thin air, mostly just from looking at the games that have managed to maintain a high population for multiple years in comparison to all the others. I've no idea whether the number is accurate or not.
On diverse communities being stronger, there is some evidence from MMOs themselves. Raph Koster goes into this exact issue a lot in one of his books and links to a few psychological research papers on the subject. There is more evidence in the real world, this issue comes up a lot when looking at town planning as well as immigration.
The basics of the theory goes as follows: we define ourselves and our groups just as much by what we are against, as what we are for. So, in a game that has both strong pvp and pve elements, the bonds formed between PvErs are stronger because they are against pvp, just as the bonds between pvpers are stronger because they are against pve. (obviously over-simplified). In a very niche community, without something outside yourselves to define yourselves by, more often than not you end up finding increasingly petty things to oppose and define yourselves by, so what should be a very inclusive community on paper actually becomes more fractured and divisive.
By designing around various activities, im talking about playstyles. By depth, in this case i just mean that the systems have enough going for them that they remain engaging and viable as a playstyle for longer than a few days. You are right that MMORPGs generally have systems that are shallower than their more niche, single player alternatives and that's always going to be the case. But, that doesn't mean that an MMO can't still be engaging across the board.
The goal (when designing for retention and diverse communities) is to make sure that when your player inevitably has a change of mood, the game still has something to offer them.
Players will always burn out on a specific playstyle. In the single player world, we just stop playing the current game and boot up something else, and thats fine as the devs have already gotten their money and there is no community involved. In the mmorpg world, you don't ever want your players to quit as you lose money and you lose a part of the community, harming the overall health of the game.
So, if the mmo offers something else to suit your new mood, you'll likely keep playing and everyone wins. Maybe you've burned out on the intensity of PvP, so having some chilled out PvE questing to suit your new mood might keep you in game until you feel like PvPing again. Perhaps you love crafting, but some douche has entered the market and you're frustrated trying to compete, so going exploring, or collecting pets, will keep you playing rather than quitting.
On the sandbox front, this is just about not having a defined endpoint. We see in most themeparks that once players have completed the content, they usually take a break or quit outright. Only a small percentage are willing to repeat the content which is why modern mmos have to rely on the churn so much. By mixing in some sandbox features (whilst still retaining some of the themepark stuff), you can keep players for longer. PvP and crafting are typically the only sandbox features we see, but some day we'll see someone get sandbox pve sorted.
Finally, totally understand if a large scale massively multiplayer game isn't what you're looking for. Simply having lots of players is no guarantee of a good time, the community might be totally shit even if it is large and the design of the game may never even make use of those large numbers.
There are so many factors that come into account when it comes to the quality of the community that it deserves it's own thread. IP seems to play a big factor, as does the design of the mechanics, as does the business model.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
EQ has not resembled EQ (which was not unique to begin with) in a long long time and the current version of the game is exactly as stated above. Ashes? Well you will see for yourself soon enough. Reality does not always match ideas.
I have not been back to EQ in a few years. As for Ashes, he was discussing cooker cutter not if it would launch at all or with the features they list. No one knows if a game will launch, that I would never argue.
So would EQ Next count? Never launched but had "ideas" for destructible voxel worlds and interesting, migrating AI.
If they had managed to pull off that project it would have been far from a cookie cutter MMO. In the end, they never had anything but broken tech.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
How does an empty server on Ashes of Creation play, though? Can you achieve the full experience if the game only has tens of thousands of players? I really don't think any mechanics can overcome the fact that the genre is oversaturated and suffering from a lack of new players. As a live service game, you can design the best systems ever, but most systems break down due to lack of population...This happens faster when you tighten the leash as far as leaning into the forced grouping aspect.
Not enough games are setting their scope low enough. You end up with "The largest game world in history blah blah blah" and you can play for hours and never seen another player outside the main city hub.
Smaller, denser worlds for a few hundred people is the way to go right now, imo.
People have changed too. Back in 2000, nobody had a mobile phone except a selected few professionals in their cars. People were more used to take their time, while today it's all faster, faster, now, now ! And that also reflects in the way people play MMORPGs, back then it was more about wonder and adventure than today, where it's all about maxing out XP, DPS and gear. Sad but true.
I don't think that people have changed, it's just a different set of people who are being catered to. There's no doubt that this current fast-now-damnit crowd is larger than the old style adventurer, but there are a lot of people out there and most do not play MMORPGs.
I'd be willing to bet that if someone made a true quality MMORPG based on farming and the business of buying, selling, and transport of, in said game style, it would rival WoW's heyday.
Or fish tanks, catching, growing, proper mixes, water types, plant types, buying and selling, all to make a perfect aquarium.
That's not what WE want, of course. But my point is that there are a lot of things directly related to what we like that would have a huge affect on an MMORPG, and money means greater support and expansion. Including what WE like.
Hell, some of those things we might discover that we like too. Just as an aside, maybe, or even as a target for play along with the basic wants.
We saw what people want in 2020 and it isn't pretty....Fortnite......No character building, no team work, no levels, just cheap entertainment for the mindless.
My 10 year old nephew that spent $100s on fornite skins would like a word with you...
Hehe another sign that the times have changed........When I was 10 I wasn't spending hundreds of dollars on anything, especially games......
I saved my money over multiple years (also did work for $) and bought the first Nintendo with several games. I also had to buy a TV for it for my room. A crappy Zenith.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
How does an empty server on Ashes of Creation play, though? Can you achieve the full experience if the game only has tens of thousands of players? I really don't think any mechanics can overcome the fact that the genre is oversaturated and suffering from a lack of new players. As a live service game, you can design the best systems ever, but most systems break down due to lack of population...This happens faster when you tighten the leash as far as leaning into the forced grouping aspect.
Not enough games are setting their scope low enough. You end up with "The largest game world in history blah blah blah" and you can play for hours and never seen another player outside the main city hub.
Smaller, denser worlds for a few hundred people is the way to go right now, imo.
How does an empty server on Ashes of Creation play, though? Can you achieve the full experience if the game only has tens of thousands of players? I really don't think any mechanics can overcome the fact that the genre is oversaturated and suffering from a lack of new players. As a live service game, you can design the best systems ever, but most systems break down due to lack of population...This happens faster when you tighten the leash as far as leaning into the forced grouping aspect.
Not enough games are setting their scope low enough. You end up with "The largest game world in history blah blah blah" and you can play for hours and never seen another player outside the main city hub.
Smaller, denser worlds for a few hundred people is the way to go right now, imo.
-I fully support this, and others on this forum can attest to the fact that I have said as much many times over.
MMO devs need to know who their game is being built for, what demographic and kind of gamer they want to attract to their game, and then target the hell out of them.
If you look at the blockbuster games that have come out, they don't even try to be everything to everyone, they have one client in mind, and they target them to the max.
Case in point, Cyberpunk2077 is a mature themed game, their target is gamers that are looking for a mature themed sci-fi game, and they went all in with that group. If you can't handle mature themed content, or are prudish, this will not be the game for you. Simple as that.
Looking at the games that hit it big, or games that have persistence, they are very niche' games. EvE, UO, are Hardcore MF'es game, Full Loot Open world, crybabies don't bother kind of game, and they are still holding strong.
Yet other games that tried to be all-in-wonders often fail, because they try to be everything to everyone, and end up feeling generic to everyone.
MMO's really should start small with a direct focus and then grow as they succeed.
This way, they cost less to make, but, they should have all their systems in that are built with the idea of growth, to expand upon what is already there with ease.
This why, when they grow enough to add a new class, race, trait line, weapon type, armor type, etc. It does not turn into a huge production to put them in, they slide into the game like the game was waiting for them to be released.
That is the way games should be made, and if MMO's really want to survive, that is how they will need to be made.
Find a Demographic, and Target the Hell out of them. If others want to join in, because it is fun for them, good, but never lose focus of your core, as those players will be the players keeping the game alive for years to come, like the people that have been playing EvE for 17 years and counting. Because it is a niche' game, and there is nothing else that can quite replace it.
And therein will be the Survival of MMO's in the future.
The era of massive MMO's at lunch that try to be all-in-wonders are dinosaurs now, and the market simply is not deep enough for that kind of thing, on top of that they feel vastly generic, so much so, that they can replaced by the next new thing without so much as a hiccup, and that is not a system that will give an MMO longevity.
IMHO, anyways.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It will never be the same for one simple reason: Voice chat. Big fat ogre with a twelve-year-olds voice? Nope. If they were typing I could suspend my disbelief. But who the hell types these days? Players run through content so fast, the encounter would already be over before you hit the return key.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I really want a world to be lost in again, I mean not even single player RPGs have done it for me since Skyrim. Bethesda flopped with Fallout 4 and I hated The Witcher 3, I thought the world looks out of proportion, like everything was too small compare to your character model.
Have you played The Outer Worlds? I haven’t been that hooked into a game since Star Wars:KotoR. Played it through twice before I started getting bored.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Nope. Can't go back. It's like point and click adventure games. They were massively popular, died, and came back in a new evolution.
I'm pretty sure there's not going to be another mmo with a wow-like scope and gameplay loop that will ever work out in the long term. I believe the future of mmos are smaller scale mmos that can support small niche communities, not mega mmos. Sorry ashes of creation.
Interesting point and I agree. I have to say, at this point, I'm more interested in continuing my play with Fallout 76, than I am looking forward to the launch of Ashes. I could see myself playing another game with the scope and scale of FO76 before playing another conventional "MMORPG".
The thing about niche titles is that they feel more detailed and rich in what they're doing. Generic MMORPGs like WoW, Ashes, EQ, all feel so watered down and homogenized to me. They try and be the everything to everyone which makes sense as they're trying to appeal to the masses.
Massively Multiplayer has become a much less appealing feature to me. MMO-alikes with smaller server sizes and more focused worlds and game play pique my interest. I still get the MMO feeling of a persistent type of world too.
Funny you say that about EQ and Ashes. EQ cut the cloth before there was a pattern. Ashes is playing with tech that is unique and not making the standard solo play MMO. Its going old school with class interdependence. With a node system thats never been done before. A world that content changes by players actions. One you can walk away from for a few months and come back to a different world. I dont know a single cookie cutter MMO that does anything like that ;-)
How does an empty server on Ashes of Creation play, though? Can you achieve the full experience if the game only has tens of thousands of players? I really don't think any mechanics can overcome the fact that the genre is oversaturated and suffering from a lack of new players. As a live service game, you can design the best systems ever, but most systems break down due to lack of population...This happens faster when you tighten the leash as far as leaning into the forced grouping aspect.
Not enough games are setting their scope low enough. You end up with "The largest game world in history blah blah blah" and you can play for hours and never seen another player outside the main city hub.
Smaller, denser worlds for a few hundred people is the way to go right now, imo.
I dont agree. Go back to 1999 and we had 500'000 people playing MMOs. 2020 and there are 10's of millions playing MMOs. Sure there is a large number of transient but MMOs have adapted to make that part of their model. GW2 calls them selves the MMO you play between other MMOs expansions. There are persistent worlds like Fallout 76 that dont call themselves an MMO but sure take allot from the MMO genera. So much so MMOers love games like that. That much like racing games and shooter games taking things from hit RPG titles to expand their generas.
Online gaming is only growing. MMOs have about 30 new titles that could be launching over the next 6-24 months. IMO, some MMOers are becoming cynical over not seeing MMOs progress the way they want. I see many on this forum that used to be a positive voice become that way. Trashing games before they launch, when they used to speek up when people did just that.
As for shrinking population. WoW's new expansion was the fasting selling PC game, breaking record sales. This genera is not dead. Its far from it and as new tech comes out, it will only have new options and expand into new things.
"There are persistent worlds like Fallout 76 that dont call themselves an
MMO but sure take allot from the MMO genera. So much so MMOers love
games like that. "
I see just as many people in FO76 as I did when I played WoW......Even though WoW likes to boast of its millions of players, I just didnt see that many around on my server.....It was pretty much a solo experience except for the occasional dungeon, so FO76 isn't much different really, and the open world aspect is so refreshing compared to the theme park experience that gets so old and boring.
Comments
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
This is why the term Wow CLONE was used.Everyone saw how much money Blizzard was making so they all jumped on that bandwagon.
Over time new gimmicks made loads of money and then a new wave of developers arrived all doing the same thing ...again.
We have gone through a wave of TCG's,Moba's,ARPG's,that is another thing,some wise crack studio creates a NEW term for their game to try and be different while doing a LOT less.
Shooters were around a long time ago but stood for gameplay ONLY,NOW loot and lights coming off the loot and markers on screens and even more laughable>>LEVELS.
So yeah we have veered so far off course there is just no way we can get back on track.All we will see into the future is more of the same,soon one gimmick makes it tons more will soon arrive and we will see yet more NEW terms for games.ALL of which will have NOTHING to do with making games better.
Oh and every 10 years or so we will see VR return and studios cashing in on half assed VR games.
The only hope for those that simply want some truly epic game designs is that out of all the nonsense some studio actually stumbles onto game built around the 3 main things,characters,interaction and world building.What Cyberpunk did is NOT world building,that is what i call a light show.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
VR, especially with things like body tracking, allowing for a fully functioning character model, will change the entire way we can interact with these huge worlds, as well as each other.
Actions replace button presses, and I for one foresee on the horizon is that this will open up a whole new door to social/non-violent interactions, and open up the ability to become immersed into these worlds in a way never before realized, developing rich social interactions.
It will change the MMO landscape from "Lets go mash buttons and kill shit" to "Lets explore this world together"
It will be an intrinsic change, a change of mindset, and the Devs that learn how to take that Social feeling, that feeling that players can BE in this world, as opposed to it just being a grind-fest playpen, will redefine how MMO's get played, and how we play in them.
It will be the difference between Space Invaders Which was a Joystick and 1 button, and Last of Us II which is a dual joystick and 14 buttons. We could say, it's still just a controller and a monitor for input, but as the input devices opened more options, the games grew to fill those options.
So too will happen with MMO's.. but.. Since MMO's Devs have already been about building worlds, they have the best platforms to move this forward.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Everything else is "more of the same", and that's just not cutting it.
Gamers are ready for this. It's so natural to the human psyche, and what people actually dream of when they think of an online world.
Player socialness in a more positive interdependence, feeling needed in whatever you decide to do, full of adventure and wide of scope.
A world, not just a narrowly focused game.
Once upon a time....
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Not enough games are setting their scope low enough. You end up with "The largest game world in history blah blah blah" and you can play for hours and never seen another player outside the main city hub.
Smaller, denser worlds for a few hundred people is the way to go right now, imo.
In today's money, it was $1100 day 1 purchase.
Best money I ever spent.
Once upon a time....
MMO devs need to know who their game is being built for, what demographic and kind of gamer they want to attract to their game, and then target the hell out of them.
If you look at the blockbuster games that have come out, they don't even try to be everything to everyone, they have one client in mind, and they target them to the max.
Case in point, Cyberpunk2077 is a mature themed game, their target is gamers that are looking for a mature themed sci-fi game, and they went all in with that group. If you can't handle mature themed content, or are prudish, this will not be the game for you. Simple as that.
Looking at the games that hit it big, or games that have persistence, they are very niche' games. EvE, UO, are Hardcore MF'es game, Full Loot Open world, crybabies don't bother kind of game, and they are still holding strong.
Yet other games that tried to be all-in-wonders often fail, because they try to be everything to everyone, and end up feeling generic to everyone.
MMO's really should start small with a direct focus and then grow as they succeed.
This way, they cost less to make, but, they should have all their systems in that are built with the idea of growth, to expand upon what is already there with ease.
This why, when they grow enough to add a new class, race, trait line, weapon type, armor type, etc. It does not turn into a huge production to put them in, they slide into the game like the game was waiting for them to be released.
That is the way games should be made, and if MMO's really want to survive, that is how they will need to be made.
Find a Demographic, and Target the Hell out of them. If others want to join in, because it is fun for them, good, but never lose focus of your core, as those players will be the players keeping the game alive for years to come, like the people that have been playing EvE for 17 years and counting. Because it is a niche' game, and there is nothing else that can quite replace it.
And therein will be the Survival of MMO's in the future.
The era of massive MMO's at lunch that try to be all-in-wonders are dinosaurs now, and the market simply is not deep enough for that kind of thing, on top of that they feel vastly generic, so much so, that they can replaced by the next new thing without so much as a hiccup, and that is not a system that will give an MMO longevity.
IMHO, anyways.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Online gaming is only growing. MMOs have about 30 new titles that could be launching over the next 6-24 months. IMO, some MMOers are becoming cynical over not seeing MMOs progress the way they want. I see many on this forum that used to be a positive voice become that way. Trashing games before they launch, when they used to speek up when people did just that.
As for shrinking population. WoW's new expansion was the fasting selling PC game, breaking record sales. This genera is not dead. Its far from it and as new tech comes out, it will only have new options and expand into new things.