It isnt the need for a new mmo that is the problem for me, it is that they are all the same and i need something innovative
No matter what MMO I try out these last few years I always get bored so fast. Nothing seems new, fresh or interesting. I think I'm utterly burnt out on games, rather than it being the fault of the games themselves.
As far as MMO's go.. I think right now, they are in a decline because, simply put, they are not a profitable venture. This should come as a no surprise to anyone that has been crying about expecting everything for free and spitting hate and vitriol at any kind of cash shop, along with the legions of players that have sworn never to spend one more red cent on the game while expecting the game to still be around for them to play.
In any case, it takes a lot of work and a lot of time to make an MMO, years of prep, and then endless maintenance to keep things going, as well as continually more work to make updates, fix the bugs the players find, stop hackers and cheaters, etc. Of which.. costs even MORE money.
So, an MMO is a HUGE investment, and as I have seen with the numbers, the ROI is simply not there.
In fact a short look at say.. NCSoft, their Mobile Games outsrip their MMO's (All of them combined) by a power of ten, and I wager take far less dev time to make and maintain, so not only are they making more total money, they have a much higher profit line.
So while MMO are tending to drift down the road of being populated by endless Jeffery Albertson clones, Phone/Mobile Games are very mainstream, played by people more than willing to dump a little money into their current past time.
There is also a different view as well, with phone games, they are a past time, not a hobby, people pop up the game while on the bus to work, or waiting in line at DMV or whatever, to make the time go more pleasing, they don't come home to play on their phone.
So again, a more relaxed vibe, with a more relaxed feel about spending money. This plays a lot on how they can marker to them. If you notice that Phone games often have transactions like weekly or even daily $2.99 specials, for their more laissez faire players. Where in an MMO that could not work, because players would demand they be able to buy that with in-game currency and then just grind it out.
So.. MMO are dying sadly, and it's purely a matter of not having a solid ROI in relation to other games that could be made.
Now, I feel that once VR becomes more complete, MMO's rocket again, as the ideal playpen for the VR system.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It isnt the need for a new mmo that is the problem for me, it is that they are all the same and i need something innovative
Not a necessity for me. Something different would nice, though. If developers and publishers could bring back worlds to explore and adventure in, that would be an fresh "old" take
It isnt the need for a new mmo that is the problem for me, it is that they are all the same and i need something innovative
No matter what MMO I try out these last few years I always get bored so fast. Nothing seems new, fresh or interesting. I think I'm utterly burnt out on games, rather than it being the fault of the games themselves.
What is there to do in these new MMOs? Fight. Combat. And.... battles! Oh, maybe some crafting tacked on as an afterthought. MMOs are shallower than a parking lot during a light drizzle. It's no wonder players get so bored so fast. The hamster wheel has been shrunk to almost no size at all.
I agree in part with Ungood, though. In general, we players demand much and pay as little as possible. However, the publishers also hold responsibility by expecting "WoW peak money" instead of the smaller MMORPGs from 1997 t0 2004 where half a million subscribers were lauded and money came in by the gobs. 16 years has not inflated money that much where if a company is not raking in 1 mill or more each and every month, they close up shop.
No, the passion for gaming is gone and been replaced by the passion for money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
"Old style MMOs (and I mean stuff as recent as ESO) are too
revenue limited by comparison and far to expensive and risky to build. "
ESO and FFXIV had huge IPs to build upon...If both games had different names and nothing to do with the history they would have not been very successful. That's why these companies have Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls in the title instead of Bob's Big Adventure.......
I must be just "different", never once played an MMORPG because of its IP, and my favorites didn't have any sort of brand recognition when I started them.
Even in the case of FO76 which is an IP I have learned to love since it's first incarnation, I play it mostly as it's my only real choice for a post apocalyptic game world.
I could easily be persuaded to try a good, new MMORPG in a similar setting regardless of its IP.
As far as I'm concerned if I never see another Star Wars game or movie ever again it's a total winning situation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think what will do more damage to MMO's than anything else, is this really weird obsession with grouping that some people have.
I mean, just to use an example.
in DDO, which is all about Dungeons and Raids, which seems to be what everyone wants, you see people cry about needing open world where they can do what? Solo? Just screw around and do nothing? And then cry that they want grouping games?
On top of that, something I learned in DDO, is that a lot of people don't like to be forced to group, which is why there is a HUGE soloist mentality in DDO. Yah, a game built around grouping up and doing dungeons and raids, has this whole thing where people do all they can to be able to solo the content.
On top of that, group centered games like DDO, end up being more about joining a network, and building/finding a Clique, or Static, and then just running with them.
So.. this obsession with grouping is not conductive to a good overall game. And the more it is forced or demanded, the more annoying it is perceived as, as opposed to a positive aspect of the game as a whole.
Because let's be honest, dealing with shit players is never fun, either by being bad, being trolls, or just being assholes, and these games that require grouping is basically the game devs trying to force people to play with shit players.
Now, Games like GW2 Core had the right mindset for an MMO, where you had a world to explore, and other people around you that could help you, and you could help them, and even then gather together and do 'big' things, like take down world bosses and the like, without once ever needing to "group".
It allowed players to deal with each other, on their terms.
And I think that was a good form, where you are not joined at the hip with a bunch of people, being in your little clique group, like many games make it to be, you were in a world, and you could have fun with the other people there, interact with each other, and go off play your game. There was a nice organic interaction in that playstyle.
I mean, sure they went and screwed things up with their need to placate the people that had to have raids and what have you, which totally ruined the vibe of the game, but they really had a good way to make the idea of people around you, being there with you.
Unlike a game like EQ, where the people around you, unless they were in your group, were competing against you for mobs and other resources.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
... On top of that, something I learned in DDO, is that a lot of people don't like to be forced to group, which is why there is a HUGE soloist mentality in DDO. Yah, a game built around grouping up and doing dungeons and raids, has this whole thing where people do all they can to be able to solo the content.
I can't be arsed to waste valuable playing time trying to form/join a group of randoms. Any of them could (and usually do) leave the group at any time they feel like it, meaning the group has to look for more members then rinse and repeat over and over.
It's like trying to herd cats and I ran out of patience with grouping 15+ years ago. I don't miss it.
... On top of that, something I learned in DDO, is that a lot of people don't like to be forced to group, which is why there is a HUGE soloist mentality in DDO. Yah, a game built around grouping up and doing dungeons and raids, has this whole thing where people do all they can to be able to solo the content.
I can't be arsed to waste valuable playing time trying to form/join a group of randoms. Any of them could (and usually do) leave the group at any time they feel like it, meaning the group has to look for more members then rinse and repeat over and over.
It's like trying to herd cats and I ran out of patience with grouping 15+ years ago. I don't miss it.
For me, I want grouping to be more "natural", as in NOT sitting in one spot spamming "LFG" in chat.
When I "solo" I am doing what I want, when I want to do it. I have no worries about other players. I can stop and gather mats or help another player in trouble if I feel like it. Groups require more consideration on my part. It is no longer "all about me", but rather "what does the group want to do?" I realize this is a conundrum in a massively multiplayer game
However, there are times when I desire a group, that social interaction and working as a team to accomplish greater things than I could on my own. This is where MMOs excel, in my opinion. But I don't need a group to craft or explore, which are favorite activities for me. Needing a group to tackle almost any combat is not what I want. I'm no "super-uber player" that kites and such easily, so I need to be able to "fight on my own" most of the time. I want a group for dungeons or more difficult scenarios. Something where I log in and expect to waste time seeking a group to adventure with.
I do enjoy (overall) interacting with other players, but I've found that groups are pretty closed in on what they are doing and rarely interact with others NOT in the group
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
... On top of that, something I learned in DDO, is that a lot of people don't like to be forced to group, which is why there is a HUGE soloist mentality in DDO. Yah, a game built around grouping up and doing dungeons and raids, has this whole thing where people do all they can to be able to solo the content.
I can't be arsed to waste valuable playing time trying to form/join a group of randoms. Any of them could (and usually do) leave the group at any time they feel like it, meaning the group has to look for more members then rinse and repeat over and over.
It's like trying to herd cats and I ran out of patience with grouping 15+ years ago. I don't miss it.
For me, I want grouping to be more "natural", as in NOT sitting in one spot spamming "LFG" in chat.
When I "solo" I am doing what I want, when I want to do it. I have no worries about other players. I can stop and gather mats or help another player in trouble if I feel like it. Groups require more consideration on my part. It is no longer "all about me", but rather "what does the group want to do?" I realize this is a conundrum in a massively multiplayer game
However, there are times when I desire a group, that social interaction and working as a team to accomplish greater things than I could on my own. This is where MMOs excel, in my opinion. But I don't need a group to craft or explore, which are favorite activities for me. Needing a group to tackle almost any combat is not what I want. I'm no "super-uber player" that kites and such easily, so I need to be able to "fight on my own" most of the time. I want a group for dungeons or more difficult scenarios. Something where I log in and expect to waste time seeking a group to adventure with.
I do enjoy (overall) interacting with other players, but I've found that groups are pretty closed in on what they are doing and rarely interact with others NOT in the group
I totally respect this, and I am also in this mindset, it is not that we want "Groups" what we want is a co-op game experience, were we can work together in an organic way, without formalities of dealing with a group construct. Where playing together should be more organic, which is why I fell in love with GW2 Core.
It was simple and organic, there was no need to officially group up, if you were just doing the same thing as someone else, you both got the reward for it, as if you were working together, without any of that pomp and circumstance of joining a group, and dealing with any of that, You just work together towards a goal, and get rewarded for it.
Which, really, is the ideal way to handle Open World content, there is no kill stealing, fighting over resources, or any of that strife that old world games had, there is only this sense of co-op, that we can all join in and contribute to getting something done.
Which is why, GW2 has such a grand community among it's casual population.
If you are fighting a mob and I hit it as well, we both get rewards for it, if I am doing a Dynamic Event, you can join in, and we both get the reward for it, if 40 people show up to kill a world boss, all of us get rewarded for it. Even if there are a few wannabe's that are running around naked punching things, because they are pitiful tryhards that want to complain how easy the event is, and how bored they are, and really the game is a million times better without these trolls.. but nonetheless.. yes.. they will get a reward as well, but the best part is, I will not have to deal with the headache of having grouped with them.
There is of course ranks, Gold, Silver, and Bronze, for participation, so the more involved you are in an event, the better your own personal reward, which again, is IMHO, the way it should be, and conductive to a friendly co-op environment.
GW2 also had instance based dungeons and fractals, for group content, and while for a while this was not a huge deal as they did not offer any better rewards than any other content, dungeons only offering skins, later they modified this, so that Fractals gave far better rewards than Open World, so, of course this attracted all the wanna-bes and tryhard elitist to flex their e-peen with fractals, then they put in the Legendary Back item in Fractals, which exploded that mess like dirheria on a truck stop wall.. which led to finally them putting in raids.
What's funny, is that my static just started to play GW2 again, for giggles, I think maybe the new expansion got them thinking about it.. anyway.. I was rather amazed at how populated the open world maps felt.
I still think they lost a crapton of goodwill with their players when they put in raids, and I bet money that many of them have opted to simply stop spending, or just spend a lot less, and the vaunted raid crowed that was going to save their game, never picked up the bill.
Anyway.. moving on.
Trove also had a similar environment, where everyone around you was in your group, so you would be able to get the rewards of anyone doing things around you, this included things like harvesting and mining.
Trove also had a instance dungeon called the Moon Tower, or something, where you would officially group up to do that content.
A few people in my static, could not handle the Voxel graphics (They don't like Minecraft either), so.. we never really go into that game, so when I played, I ended up playing alone.
So.. both those games.. which I enjoyed immensely, have a system that might be something for you to look into.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
... On top of that, something I learned in DDO, is that a lot of people don't like to be forced to group, which is why there is a HUGE soloist mentality in DDO. Yah, a game built around grouping up and doing dungeons and raids, has this whole thing where people do all they can to be able to solo the content.
I can't be arsed to waste valuable playing time trying to form/join a group of randoms. Any of them could (and usually do) leave the group at any time they feel like it, meaning the group has to look for more members then rinse and repeat over and over.
It's like trying to herd cats and I ran out of patience with grouping 15+ years ago. I don't miss it.
When I "solo" I am doing what I want, when I want to do it. I have no worries about other players. I can stop and gather mats or help another player in trouble if I feel like it. Groups require more consideration on my part. It is no longer "all about me", but rather "what does the group want to do?" I realize this is a conundrum in a massively multiplayer game
However, there are times when I desire a group, that social interaction...
I prefer doing my own thing too. I'm not interested in other players these days, not even for "social interaction", because there isn't any real interaction any more. A few "lols", a "wtf" now and again, the odd "GG" and that's about it.
Remember the times when we had multiple mmo's either being released or just launched? ....and those had to compete with the next WoW expansion. The second part is likely still true, but the first? Are we ever likely to experience a time again when the player base is spoilt for choice with new mmo releases, or has that horse well and truly ridden over the horizon? I'm not including any dime-a-dozen Korean cloned slashathon. Talking about storylines, proper character progression, diverse classes that need proper learning. Or should I just accept that we've had our golden age of mmo's and they're now gone.
I remember multiple MMORPGs trying to replicate the success of WoW and failing the vast majority of the time. I hope that horse is gone forever as well as the unrealistic expectations it's saddle was crafted of. It was a fool's gold age.
Looking at that list I am glad those days are gone.
None of them stuck with me either...i liked alot fo the oens that came before those but not any of those. I liked the days before WoW where every MMO was very unique......DAoC, UO, EQ, AC, FFXI, Anarchy Online, and several otehrs were just so unique and fun.....Once WoW came along though, it changed everything...MMOs went from games and virtual worlds to a business.
Looking at that list I am glad those days are gone.
None of them stuck with me either...i liked alot fo the oens that came before those but not any of those. I liked the days before WoW where every MMO was very unique......DAoC, UO, EQ, AC, FFXI, Anarchy Online, and several otehrs were just so unique and fun.....Once WoW came along though, it changed everything...MMOs went from games and virtual worlds to a business.
Yes, that was the best times of the mmo genre. I would say after the 2002-2003 releases of Final Fantasy XI, Everquest 2, Lineage 2, Guild Wars and World Of Warcraft everything started to go down from there.
You know, WoW had no idea that they were going to become "The WOW" that changed MMO's for the foreseeable future, I mean, in reality, some of the Developers of WoW, used to play EQ, and simply were given the chance to make and play "What EQ could have been" and jumped on it.
Many of the ideas that were put into WoW, had been asked for, for YEARS on the EQ forums, and the Devs, being players themselves, saw the logic, and jumped on it.
They didn't start out with the idea that this was going to be the King of Games for the next Decade and a half.
This is also a good lesson to be learned from all our armchair developers that thinking the way it is, is the way it should be is the wrong approach, which was popular back then as it is today, and of course the mantra "If you don't like it, Leave"
Which is exactly what happened, people jumped from EQ to WoW, gave it a huge population boost, and then it exploded from there, we can see similar things happening in others games as well, which is why they spike up and then die off.
This of course builds on the two greatest core points of making an MMO.
1) Make a game you want to play.
2) Know your demographic, and target the fuck out of them.
This is something that way too many MMO's fail in these days. It's not about ingenuity, it's about lacking that connection to the game you are making. It's about knowing what you want to make, and who you want to make it for.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Considering the last big hit (BDO) was released in 2014 we are almost 7 years without a fresh good mmo.If you also take a look at the crowfunded trainwreck we probably wont have one for a while The good news is all the old mmos are there for us to enjoy with good populations and updated constantly
There is lots of fun to be had and innovation to be experienced with smaller, new gems though, which is why I always found MMO players' complaints about a drought a bit overblown.
For example I got hundreds of hours of fun and memorable moments out of each of Foxhole, Albion and Screeps, and I found E:D's BGS and One Hour One Life very interesting. I know others that enjoy Project Gorgon a lot. Etc etc.
I am glad for you. Not so for me. I've looked at Foxhole and Albion. They just don't "click" with me. I am fortunate in that I don't have to play MMOs. I don't have to support anyone. If one comes out that brings me back, I'll be happy. Otherwise I have lots of single player games that entertain me already
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I've pretty much lost hope in MMORPG's and a new title actually being any good. Old days game makers didn't do it for the money but that is all there is today and anyone with a good idea is shut down instantly for fast easy profit at the expense of a good game.
Thing is many of us would likely be very happy with a new game similar to Everquest 1. Quests are good to an extent but we don't need 1001 quests to guide us from start to finish doing mind numbing tasks. What most want is the social interaction environment with friends and guilds as well as doing activities like parties and raids that feel challenging and rewarding. Thing is things don't feel rewarding if gear and levels are just thrown at you like candy. The feeling of pushing hard for a new skill level being accomplished, finishing out a new specialization line that makes you different then every other player in your class, and actually getting meaningful gear pieces especially when drops aren't guaranteed.
Old days it was about growing as a group with our friends and guilds. That does NOT exist anymore today due to these fast and ease of gameplay and the solo environment for most of the game. Even in the old days competing for a spawn or dungeon access meant something and also helped create friends, enemies, and competition.
Thing is none of that is conductive to a fast easy money making scheme. Having players happy just being with friends doing stuff fairly and competitively w/o being able to buy an edge doesn't make money. It doesn't make money when it may take you a week or two of playing for a single level increase because that is time to farm potential new gear instead of being so rushed you look to buy it and access real money shops.
Being a "hit"doesn't make you a good mmo or a good rpg.
BDO for example is full of automation some downright stupid ideas.Wow is what I label as the ANTI rpg anti mmo in every part of it's design.
There are only a handful of games that started in the right direction but we have NEVER seen a single developer take that and improve on it.
The FIRST game that MIGHT do a little something is unfinished as of yet and that is the Steven Sharif game of which I already forget the title.The reason is because he is trying to create a WORLD that comes to life,you see structures rising up,areas change,so he is doing something more realistic with the World.
However there are a few core BASICS that still are either not yet done or missing in ALL games and that is ECO systems,housing,survival,living worldsk,weather,building,water zones.
Developers are not even trying to make good MMO or RPG's,they are simply doing as little as possible and sticking with what sells,makes money.If a developer thinks it can sell a 256x256 shoebox world with a cash shop selling mounts,that is all they would do.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
As far as MMO's go.. I think right now, they are in a decline because, simply put, they are not a profitable venture. This should come as a no surprise to anyone that has been crying about expecting everything for free and spitting hate and vitriol at any kind of cash shop, along with the legions of players that have sworn never to spend one more red cent on the game while expecting the game to still be around for them to play.
In any case, it takes a lot of work and a lot of time to make an MMO, years of prep, and then endless maintenance to keep things going, as well as continually more work to make updates, fix the bugs the players find, stop hackers and cheaters, etc. Of which.. costs even MORE money.
So, an MMO is a HUGE investment, and as I have seen with the numbers, the ROI is simply not there.
In fact a short look at say.. NCSoft, their Mobile Games outsrip their MMO's (All of them combined) by a power of ten, and I wager take far less dev time to make and maintain, so not only are they making more total money, they have a much higher profit line.
So while MMO are tending to drift down the road of being populated by endless Jeffery Albertson clones, Phone/Mobile Games are very mainstream, played by people more than willing to dump a little money into their current past time.
There is also a different view as well, with phone games, they are a past time, not a hobby, people pop up the game while on the bus to work, or waiting in line at DMV or whatever, to make the time go more pleasing, they don't come home to play on their phone.
So again, a more relaxed vibe, with a more relaxed feel about spending money. This plays a lot on how they can marker to them. If you notice that Phone games often have transactions like weekly or even daily $2.99 specials, for their more laissez faire players. Where in an MMO that could not work, because players would demand they be able to buy that with in-game currency and then just grind it out.
So.. MMO are dying sadly, and it's purely a matter of not having a solid ROI in relation to other games that could be made.
Now, I feel that once VR becomes more complete, MMO's rocket again, as the ideal playpen for the VR system.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not a necessity for me. Something different would nice, though. If developers and publishers could bring back worlds to explore and adventure in, that would be an fresh "old" take
What is there to do in these new MMOs? Fight. Combat. And.... battles! Oh, maybe some crafting tacked on as an afterthought. MMOs are shallower than a parking lot during a light drizzle. It's no wonder players get so bored so fast. The hamster wheel has been shrunk to almost no size at all.
I agree in part with Ungood, though. In general, we players demand much and pay as little as possible. However, the publishers also hold responsibility by expecting "WoW peak money" instead of the smaller MMORPGs from 1997 t0 2004 where half a million subscribers were lauded and money came in by the gobs. 16 years has not inflated money that much where if a company is not raking in 1 mill or more each and every month, they close up shop.
No, the passion for gaming is gone and been replaced by the passion for money.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Even in the case of FO76 which is an IP I have learned to love since it's first incarnation, I play it mostly as it's my only real choice for a post apocalyptic game world.
I could easily be persuaded to try a good, new MMORPG in a similar setting regardless of its IP.
As far as I'm concerned if I never see another Star Wars game or movie ever again it's a total winning situation.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When I see something like Gloria Victis,players just standing there in the open playing whackamole on each other,i just shake my head and wonder WHY.
Sadly Gloria Victis was one of the better games in that video...sigh.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I mean, just to use an example.
in DDO, which is all about Dungeons and Raids, which seems to be what everyone wants, you see people cry about needing open world where they can do what? Solo? Just screw around and do nothing? And then cry that they want grouping games?
On top of that, something I learned in DDO, is that a lot of people don't like to be forced to group, which is why there is a HUGE soloist mentality in DDO. Yah, a game built around grouping up and doing dungeons and raids, has this whole thing where people do all they can to be able to solo the content.
On top of that, group centered games like DDO, end up being more about joining a network, and building/finding a Clique, or Static, and then just running with them.
So.. this obsession with grouping is not conductive to a good overall game. And the more it is forced or demanded, the more annoying it is perceived as, as opposed to a positive aspect of the game as a whole.
Because let's be honest, dealing with shit players is never fun, either by being bad, being trolls, or just being assholes, and these games that require grouping is basically the game devs trying to force people to play with shit players.
Now, Games like GW2 Core had the right mindset for an MMO, where you had a world to explore, and other people around you that could help you, and you could help them, and even then gather together and do 'big' things, like take down world bosses and the like, without once ever needing to "group".
It allowed players to deal with each other, on their terms.
And I think that was a good form, where you are not joined at the hip with a bunch of people, being in your little clique group, like many games make it to be, you were in a world, and you could have fun with the other people there, interact with each other, and go off play your game. There was a nice organic interaction in that playstyle.
I mean, sure they went and screwed things up with their need to placate the people that had to have raids and what have you, which totally ruined the vibe of the game, but they really had a good way to make the idea of people around you, being there with you.
Unlike a game like EQ, where the people around you, unless they were in your group, were competing against you for mobs and other resources.
It's like trying to herd cats and I ran out of patience with grouping 15+ years ago. I don't miss it.
When I "solo" I am doing what I want, when I want to do it. I have no worries about other players. I can stop and gather mats or help another player in trouble if I feel like it. Groups require more consideration on my part. It is no longer "all about me", but rather "what does the group want to do?" I realize this is a conundrum in a massively multiplayer game
However, there are times when I desire a group, that social interaction and working as a team to accomplish greater things than I could on my own. This is where MMOs excel, in my opinion. But I don't need a group to craft or explore, which are favorite activities for me. Needing a group to tackle almost any combat is not what I want. I'm no "super-uber player" that kites and such easily, so I need to be able to "fight on my own" most of the time. I want a group for dungeons or more difficult scenarios. Something where I log in and expect to waste time seeking a group to adventure with.
I do enjoy (overall) interacting with other players, but I've found that groups are pretty closed in on what they are doing and rarely interact with others NOT in the group
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It was simple and organic, there was no need to officially group up, if you were just doing the same thing as someone else, you both got the reward for it, as if you were working together, without any of that pomp and circumstance of joining a group, and dealing with any of that, You just work together towards a goal, and get rewarded for it.
Which, really, is the ideal way to handle Open World content, there is no kill stealing, fighting over resources, or any of that strife that old world games had, there is only this sense of co-op, that we can all join in and contribute to getting something done.
Which is why, GW2 has such a grand community among it's casual population.
If you are fighting a mob and I hit it as well, we both get rewards for it, if I am doing a Dynamic Event, you can join in, and we both get the reward for it, if 40 people show up to kill a world boss, all of us get rewarded for it. Even if there are a few wannabe's that are running around naked punching things, because they are pitiful tryhards that want to complain how easy the event is, and how bored they are, and really the game is a million times better without these trolls.. but nonetheless.. yes.. they will get a reward as well, but the best part is, I will not have to deal with the headache of having grouped with them.
There is of course ranks, Gold, Silver, and Bronze, for participation, so the more involved you are in an event, the better your own personal reward, which again, is IMHO, the way it should be, and conductive to a friendly co-op environment.
GW2 also had instance based dungeons and fractals, for group content, and while for a while this was not a huge deal as they did not offer any better rewards than any other content, dungeons only offering skins, later they modified this, so that Fractals gave far better rewards than Open World, so, of course this attracted all the wanna-bes and tryhard elitist to flex their e-peen with fractals, then they put in the Legendary Back item in Fractals, which exploded that mess like dirheria on a truck stop wall.. which led to finally them putting in raids.
What's funny, is that my static just started to play GW2 again, for giggles, I think maybe the new expansion got them thinking about it.. anyway.. I was rather amazed at how populated the open world maps felt.
I still think they lost a crapton of goodwill with their players when they put in raids, and I bet money that many of them have opted to simply stop spending, or just spend a lot less, and the vaunted raid crowed that was going to save their game, never picked up the bill.
Anyway.. moving on.
Trove also had a similar environment, where everyone around you was in your group, so you would be able to get the rewards of anyone doing things around you, this included things like harvesting and mining.
Trove also had a instance dungeon called the Moon Tower, or something, where you would officially group up to do that content.
A few people in my static, could not handle the Voxel graphics (They don't like Minecraft either), so.. we never really go into that game, so when I played, I ended up playing alone.
So.. both those games.. which I enjoyed immensely, have a system that might be something for you to look into.
I remember multiple MMORPGs trying to replicate the success of WoW and failing the vast majority of the time. I hope that horse is gone forever as well as the unrealistic expectations it's saddle was crafted of. It was a fool's gold age.
None of them stuck with me either...i liked alot fo the oens that came before those but not any of those. I liked the days before WoW where every MMO was very unique......DAoC, UO, EQ, AC, FFXI, Anarchy Online, and several otehrs were just so unique and fun.....Once WoW came along though, it changed everything...MMOs went from games and virtual worlds to a business.
Yes, that was the best times of the mmo genre. I would say after the 2002-2003 releases of Final Fantasy XI, Everquest 2, Lineage 2, Guild Wars and World Of Warcraft everything started to go down from there.
Many of the ideas that were put into WoW, had been asked for, for YEARS on the EQ forums, and the Devs, being players themselves, saw the logic, and jumped on it.
They didn't start out with the idea that this was going to be the King of Games for the next Decade and a half.
This is also a good lesson to be learned from all our armchair developers that thinking the way it is, is the way it should be is the wrong approach, which was popular back then as it is today, and of course the mantra "If you don't like it, Leave"
Which is exactly what happened, people jumped from EQ to WoW, gave it a huge population boost, and then it exploded from there, we can see similar things happening in others games as well, which is why they spike up and then die off.
This of course builds on the two greatest core points of making an MMO.
1) Make a game you want to play.
2) Know your demographic, and target the fuck out of them.
This is something that way too many MMO's fail in these days. It's not about ingenuity, it's about lacking that connection to the game you are making. It's about knowing what you want to make, and who you want to make it for.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Thing is many of us would likely be very happy with a new game similar to Everquest 1. Quests are good to an extent but we don't need 1001 quests to guide us from start to finish doing mind numbing tasks. What most want is the social interaction environment with friends and guilds as well as doing activities like parties and raids that feel challenging and rewarding. Thing is things don't feel rewarding if gear and levels are just thrown at you like candy. The feeling of pushing hard for a new skill level being accomplished, finishing out a new specialization line that makes you different then every other player in your class, and actually getting meaningful gear pieces especially when drops aren't guaranteed.
Old days it was about growing as a group with our friends and guilds. That does NOT exist anymore today due to these fast and ease of gameplay and the solo environment for most of the game. Even in the old days competing for a spawn or dungeon access meant something and also helped create friends, enemies, and competition.
Thing is none of that is conductive to a fast easy money making scheme. Having players happy just being with friends doing stuff fairly and competitively w/o being able to buy an edge doesn't make money. It doesn't make money when it may take you a week or two of playing for a single level increase because that is time to farm potential new gear instead of being so rushed you look to buy it and access real money shops.
BDO for example is full of automation some downright stupid ideas.Wow is what I label as the ANTI rpg anti mmo in every part of it's design.
There are only a handful of games that started in the right direction but we have NEVER seen a single developer take that and improve on it.
The FIRST game that MIGHT do a little something is unfinished as of yet and that is the Steven Sharif game of which I already forget the title.The reason is because he is trying to create a WORLD that comes to life,you see structures rising up,areas change,so he is doing something more realistic with the World.
However there are a few core BASICS that still are either not yet done or missing in ALL games and that is ECO systems,housing,survival,living worldsk,weather,building,water zones.
Developers are not even trying to make good MMO or RPG's,they are simply doing as little as possible and sticking with what sells,makes money.If a developer thinks it can sell a 256x256 shoebox world with a cash shop selling mounts,that is all they would do.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.