Yes it is a scam and time for people to stop supporting it.I no longer support any subscriptions or monetization.
I am tired of being ripped off an I don't NEED any game,i am not some addicted junkie,i am the consumer,they need to conform to us not the other way around.
Utter idiots like this thinking they should get other people's hard work for free to enjoy are a waste of space so do NOT listen to these kind of idiots. If its a good product you should be willing to accept some form of price and not be some entitled brat thinking the world should be free.
I have always loved the irony of people spending hundreds and thousands of hours of their life breaths on a game they don't think it worth spending any money on.
For me.. if it is worth my time.. it is worth money.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Seriously of all the insidious money grabbing schemes in video games, ppl want to moan about an mmo that hasn't upped it's prices in like a decade and a half because they have to pay for the expansion while being subbed? The entitlement is astounding. Please go play any of the Asian mmos and get back to me about monetary corruption.
And furthermore you actually can play wow for free up to level 20 and get a ton of content now that you can go through all past expansions. You can also pvp in battlegrounds to your heart's content in that level bracket. I expect young naive ppl to be misinformed but why does it feel like the old people are more stupid?
Seriously of all the insidious money grabbing schemes in video games, ppl want to moan about an mmo that hasn't upped it's prices in like a decade and a half because they have to pay for the expansion while being subbed? The entitlement is astounding. Please go play any of the Asian mmos and get back to me about monetary corruption.
And furthermore you actually can play wow for free up to level 20 and get a ton of content now that you can go through all past expansions. You can also pvp in battlegrounds to your heart's content in that level bracket. I expect young naive ppl to be misinformed but why does it feel like the old people are more stupid?
When the point goes right over a person's head....priceless...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
Nope... a Sub should be for access to the game, to keep it going.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Seriously of all the insidious money grabbing schemes in video games, ppl want to moan about an mmo that hasn't upped it's prices in like a decade and a half because they have to pay for the expansion while being subbed? The entitlement is astounding. Please go play any of the Asian mmos and get back to me about monetary corruption.
And furthermore you actually can play wow for free up to level 20 and get a ton of content now that you can go through all past expansions. You can also pvp in battlegrounds to your heart's content in that level bracket. I expect young naive ppl to be misinformed but why does it feel like the old people are more stupid?
When the point goes right over a person's head....priceless...
Merry Christmas
I apologize for being mean in what I said. No matter how annoyed I get with ppl on the internet, it's not an excuse to be mean. But what point did I miss? I thought the point was that ppl felt taken advantage of b/c they have to pay for an expansion in addition to a monthly fee. What point was given in their side which I missed?
The only argument for their side that I can see goes something like, "I pay for some random video game once, and I don't have to pay keep playing it, so it's unfair that WoW makes me do this."
And they ignore that mmo's cost significantly more to maintain what with servers needing to manage hundreds of people concurrently interacting with each other, thus they charge subscription. The alternative would be the f2p model, I don't know any mmo that is both f2p and has no pay to win elements. The closest is GW2 but even their gems system seems P2W as it offers benefits that help you get better items. The only other thing that comes to mind is POE, and that's essentially no more an mmo than Diablo is.
So it's either subscription and monthly fee, or f2p and pay to win woes. One way or another maintenance and junk for mmo servers has to be collected through money. Also If ppl are pissed about not finishing Wow's story before having to commit to the monthly fee, it makes no sense. The story of an expansion essentially finishes years after the release when you take down the final big boss.
Edit: And just to kick a dead horse on WoW's fairness, if you are skilled enough, you can find ways to make enough gold ingame to be able to sell WoW tokens which essentially eliminate subscription for you. So they actually reversed the pay-2-win model. They made an available win-to-not-pay opportunity.
Edit2: I think in GW2 you can reasonably achieve what gems give you just by playing normally, so maybe gems are more just a catchup mechanc for casuals. In that case, GW2 may very well have achieved subscription-free non-p2w mmo model. Kudos to them!
Seriously of all the insidious money grabbing schemes in video games, ppl want to moan about an mmo that hasn't upped it's prices in like a decade and a half because they have to pay for the expansion while being subbed? The entitlement is astounding. Please go play any of the Asian mmos and get back to me about monetary corruption.
And furthermore you actually can play wow for free up to level 20 and get a ton of content now that you can go through all past expansions. You can also pvp in battlegrounds to your heart's content in that level bracket. I expect young naive ppl to be misinformed but why does it feel like the old people are more stupid?
When the point goes right over a person's head....priceless...
Merry Christmas
I apologize for being mean in what I said. No matter how annoyed I get with ppl on the internet, it's not an excuse to be mean. But what point did I miss? I thought the point was that ppl felt taken advantage of b/c they have to pay for an expansion in addition to a monthly fee. What point was given in their side which I missed?
The only argument for their side that I can see goes something like, "I pay for some random video game once, and I don't have to pay keep playing it, so it's unfair that WoW makes me do this."
And they ignore that mmo's cost significantly more to maintain what with servers needing to manage hundreds of people concurrently interacting with each other, thus they charge subscription. The alternative would be the f2p model, I don't know any mmo that is both f2p and has no pay to win elements. The closest is GW2 but even their gems system seems P2W as it offers benefits that help you get better items. The only other thing that comes to mind is POE, and that's essentially no more an mmo than Diablo is.
So it's either subscription and monthly fee, or f2p and pay to win woes. One way or another maintenance and junk for mmo servers has to be collected through money. Also If ppl are pissed about not finishing Wow's story before having to commit to the monthly fee, it makes no sense. The story of an expansion essentially finishes years after the release when you take down the final big boss.
Edit: And just to kick a dead horse on WoW's fairness, if you are skilled enough, you can find ways to make enough gold ingame to be able to sell WoW tokens which essentially eliminate subscription for you. So they actually reversed the pay-2-win model. They made an available win-to-not-pay opportunity.
Edit2: I think in GW2 you can reasonably achieve what gems give you just by playing normally, so maybe gems are more just a catchup mechanc for casuals. In that case, GW2 may very well have achieved subscription-free non-p2w mmo model. Kudos to them!
The OP was talking about buying the latest expansion and NOT being able to finish the story within the expansion, thus staying subbed until Blizzard decides to "let out" the next chapter. This seems to be a fairly recent practice for WoW as previously, the stories in the expansions were "complete(?)"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The OP was talking about buying the latest expansion and NOT being able to finish the story within the expansion, thus staying subbed until Blizzard decides to "let out" the next chapter. This seems to be a fairly recent practice for WoW as previously, the stories in the expansions were "complete(?)"
It still doesn't make sense. I checked all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King, which was released over 10 years ago. From the time of that expansion's release to the time of the final big patch for it where you finish off Arthas and end the story is over a year! So it's certainly not a new practice. The story of an expansion unfolds over the entire lifetime of the expansion in WoW... not sure why people are so offended by that.
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
Nope... a Sub should be for access to the game, to keep it going.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
LOL. Devs have come out and explained how minisucule the server costs are for each person. And guess what, they charge money for the expac launch content. $40 at least.
$40, plus a mandatory $15 sub, for 10 hours of leveling is a bit much imo. Which is why I've skipped the last two expansions. I don't care about dailies, end game gearing or pvp. Why the hell am I going to pay $55 for one month of wow? Screw that.
Other MMO's have it better in that regard. There's really no debate. I can return to LOTRO or SWTOR or Guild Wars 2 at any time. WOW requires me to pay them $15 even if I just want to log in on my char.
Now if they let me do the leveling content without a sub they may get me to commit to a sub. But the way they do it they get nothing and haven't for years.
The OP was talking about buying the latest expansion and NOT being able to finish the story within the expansion, thus staying subbed until Blizzard decides to "let out" the next chapter. This seems to be a fairly recent practice for WoW as previously, the stories in the expansions were "complete(?)"
It still doesn't make sense. I checked all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King, which was released over 10 years ago. From the time of that expansion's release to the time of the final big patch for it where you finish off Arthas and end the story is over a year! So it's certainly not a new practice. The story of an expansion unfolds over the entire lifetime of the expansion in WoW... not sure why people are so offended by that.
Thanks for that clarification. I don't follow WoW's storylines at all, so was guessing there
Either way, I took the emphasis of the point NOT as "OMG! I have to sub?!?", but rather more of a complaint about trying to follow the story.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
Nope... a Sub should be for access to the game, to keep it going.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
LOL. Devs have come out and explained how minisucule the server costs are for each person. And guess what, they charge money for the expac launch content. $40 at least.
$40, plus a mandatory $15 sub, for 10 hours of leveling is a bit much imo. Which is why I've skipped the last two expansions. I don't care about dailies, end game gearing or pvp. Why the hell am I going to pay $55 for one month of wow? Screw that.
Other MMO's have it better in that regard. There's really no debate. I can return to LOTRO or SWTOR or Guild Wars 2 at any time. WOW requires me to pay them $15 even if I just want to log in on my char.
Now if they let me do the leveling content without a sub they may get me to commit to a sub. But the way they do it they get nothing and haven't for years.
I had to edit my post, because, you bring up a solid point with this.
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
Nope... a Sub should be for access to the game, to keep it going.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
LOL. Devs have come out and explained how minisucule the server costs are for each person. And guess what, they charge money for the expac launch content. $40 at least.
$40, plus a mandatory $15 sub, for 10 hours of leveling is a bit much imo. Which is why I've skipped the last two expansions. I don't care about dailies, end game gearing or pvp. Why the hell am I going to pay $55 for one month of wow? Screw that.
Other MMO's have it better in that regard. There's really no debate. I can return to LOTRO or SWTOR or Guild Wars 2 at any time. WOW requires me to pay them $15 even if I just want to log in on my char.
Now if they let me do the leveling content without a sub they may get me to commit to a sub. But the way they do it they get nothing and haven't for years.
I had to edit my post, because, you bring up a solid point with this.
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
Mandatory sub games I'll agree have gone the way of the dodo, but many MMOs offer "optional" subs which offer benefits really too good for most to pass up, such as ESOs / FO76's unlimited crafting / scrap boxes.
The new model is to soak the customer in as many ways as possible, oh I meant offer multiple monetization options / opportunities for players to be separated from their money.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
Nope... a Sub should be for access to the game, to keep it going.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
LOL. Devs have come out and explained how minisucule the server costs are for each person. And guess what, they charge money for the expac launch content. $40 at least.
$40, plus a mandatory $15 sub, for 10 hours of leveling is a bit much imo. Which is why I've skipped the last two expansions. I don't care about dailies, end game gearing or pvp. Why the hell am I going to pay $55 for one month of wow? Screw that.
Other MMO's have it better in that regard. There's really no debate. I can return to LOTRO or SWTOR or Guild Wars 2 at any time. WOW requires me to pay them $15 even if I just want to log in on my char.
Now if they let me do the leveling content without a sub they may get me to commit to a sub. But the way they do it they get nothing and haven't for years.
I had to edit my post, because, you bring up a solid point with this.
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
Mandatory sub games I'll agree have gone the way of the dodo, but many MMOs offer "optional" subs which offer benefits really too good for most to pass up, such as ESOs / FO76's unlimited crafting / scrap boxes.
The new model is to soak the customer in as many ways as possible, oh I meant offer multiple monetization options / opportunities for players to be separated from their money.
Optional Subs?
Yah, Turbine did that with DDO at their their F2P launch back in 2009, so my first F2P MMO started with a Sub Option, we called it ViP, they also did the whole Free account and Paid Premium Account system, which I hear other MMO's are finally start to clue in on as well, so these are not new models to me, that is other games finally catching up to what Turbine/DDO put out over a decade ago.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The one aspect of mandatory sub games is that I hate paying a sub when I just want to level an alt. I think SWTOR has that aspect right at least. Server costs are negligible as it is, subs should be paying for endgame content that needs to be updated regularly post launch.
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
Nope... a Sub should be for access to the game, to keep it going.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
LOL. Devs have come out and explained how minisucule the server costs are for each person. And guess what, they charge money for the expac launch content. $40 at least.
$40, plus a mandatory $15 sub, for 10 hours of leveling is a bit much imo. Which is why I've skipped the last two expansions. I don't care about dailies, end game gearing or pvp. Why the hell am I going to pay $55 for one month of wow? Screw that.
Other MMO's have it better in that regard. There's really no debate. I can return to LOTRO or SWTOR or Guild Wars 2 at any time. WOW requires me to pay them $15 even if I just want to log in on my char.
Now if they let me do the leveling content without a sub they may get me to commit to a sub. But the way they do it they get nothing and haven't for years.
I had to edit my post, because, you bring up a solid point with this.
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
Mandatory sub games I'll agree have gone the way of the dodo, but many MMOs offer "optional" subs which offer benefits really too good for most to pass up, such as ESOs / FO76's unlimited crafting / scrap boxes.
The new model is to soak the customer in as many ways as possible, oh I meant offer multiple monetization options / opportunities for players to be separated from their money.
Optional Subs?
Yah, Turbine did that with DDO at their their F2P launch back in 2009, so my first F2P MMO started with a Sub Option, we called it ViP, they also did the whole Free account and Paid Premium Account system, which I hear other MMO's are finally start to clue in on as well, so these are not new models to me, that is other games finally catching up to what Turbine/DDO put out over a decade ago.
As far as I know, every sub MMO that went F2P still offered "optional subs." EQ, CoH, SW:TOR, etc all had optional subs when they went to F2P. I viewed these optional subs as just a way to get players into the cash shop because one had to go to the cash shop in order to receive "all the goodies."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I had to edit my post, because, you bring up a solid point with this.
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
Mandatory sub games I'll agree have gone the way of the dodo, but many MMOs offer "optional" subs which offer benefits really too good for most to pass up, such as ESOs / FO76's unlimited crafting / scrap boxes.
The new model is to soak the customer in as many ways as possible, oh I meant offer multiple monetization options / opportunities for players to be separated from their money.
Optional Subs?
Yah, Turbine did that with DDO at their their F2P launch back in 2009, so my first F2P MMO started with a Sub Option, we called it ViP, they also did the whole Free account and Paid Premium Account system, which I hear other MMO's are finally start to clue in on as well, so these are not new models to me, that is other games finally catching up to what Turbine/DDO put out over a decade ago.
As far as I know, every sub MMO that went F2P still offered "optional subs." EQ, CoH, SW:TOR, etc all had optional subs when they went to F2P. I viewed these optional subs as just a way to get players into the cash shop because one had to go to the cash shop in order to receive "all the goodies."
Really? That's lame, also kinda cheesy.
I mean, DDO didn't do that with their ViP which offered:
Additional character slots.
Premium Races and Class.
Elite (Now Reaper) Open.
All Paid Content (not including Expansions)
+10% stacking Exp Boost.
1 Free Gold Roll Per Week.
500 (roughly $7 store value) DDO points.
None of which did you have to open the store to gain access to, it was all instantly unlocked, pay and play, and you never needed to look at the store if you didn't want to.
The only thing you needed to open the store for, was if you wanted to spend your points, but otherwise it might as well have been invisible.
But then again. DDO sells Content Packs, which IIRC, is a slightly different model then what others do, which is sell loot boxes and other pointless shit, that has gear, cosmetics, and all the stuff you should be earning in game, in the box.
But I am noticing the system of selling content is also gaining traction among other MMO's where they will make and sell small DLC content packs, DDO used to use the term Adventure Module, and now calls them Adventure Packs, where you buy the pack and then earn the rewards.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I had to edit my post, because, you bring up a solid point with this.
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
Mandatory sub games I'll agree have gone the way of the dodo, but many MMOs offer "optional" subs which offer benefits really too good for most to pass up, such as ESOs / FO76's unlimited crafting / scrap boxes.
The new model is to soak the customer in as many ways as possible, oh I meant offer multiple monetization options / opportunities for players to be separated from their money.
Optional Subs?
Yah, Turbine did that with DDO at their their F2P launch back in 2009, so my first F2P MMO started with a Sub Option, we called it ViP, they also did the whole Free account and Paid Premium Account system, which I hear other MMO's are finally start to clue in on as well, so these are not new models to me, that is other games finally catching up to what Turbine/DDO put out over a decade ago.
As far as I know, every sub MMO that went F2P still offered "optional subs." EQ, CoH, SW:TOR, etc all had optional subs when they went to F2P. I viewed these optional subs as just a way to get players into the cash shop because one had to go to the cash shop in order to receive "all the goodies."
Really? That's lame, also kinda cheesy.
I mean, DDO didn't do that with their ViP which offered:
Additional character slots.
Premium Races and Class.
Elite (Now Reaper) Open.
All Paid Content (not including Expansions)
+10% stacking Exp Boost.
1 Free Gold Roll Per Week.
500 (roughly $7 store value) DDO points.
None of which did you have to open the store to gain access to, it was all instantly unlocked, pay and play, and you never needed to look at the store if you didn't want to.
The only thing you needed to open the store for, was if you wanted to spend your points, but otherwise it might as well have been invisible.
But then again. DDO sells Content Packs, which IIRC, is a slightly different model then what others do, which is sell loot boxes and other pointless shit, that has gear, cosmetics, and all the stuff you should be earning in game, in the box.
But I am noticing the system of selling content is also gaining traction among other MMO's where they will make and sell small DLC content packs, DDO used to use the term Adventure Module, and now calls them Adventure Packs, where you buy the pack and then earn the rewards.
Interesting. Many of the other games "big seller" was giving a specific amount of cash shop currency each month. That's what soured my attitude. There just wasn't much in the cash shops that I would use that currency for, so it went unused month after month
PS: [edit] I wanted to add that many players like the "buy as you play' option and I can't fault them. However, I've always been a proponent of all players playing the same game. Thus my dislike of any cutting up of MMOs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yah, Turbine did that with DDO at their their F2P launch back in 2009, so my first F2P MMO started with a Sub Option, we called it ViP, they also did the whole Free account and Paid Premium Account system, which I hear other MMO's are finally start to clue in on as well, so these are not new models to me, that is other games finally catching up to what Turbine/DDO put out over a decade ago.
As far as I know, every sub MMO that went F2P still offered "optional subs." EQ, CoH, SW:TOR, etc all had optional subs when they went to F2P. I viewed these optional subs as just a way to get players into the cash shop because one had to go to the cash shop in order to receive "all the goodies."
Really? That's lame, also kinda cheesy.
I mean, DDO didn't do that with their ViP which offered:
Additional character slots.
Premium Races and Class.
Elite (Now Reaper) Open.
All Paid Content (not including Expansions)
+10% stacking Exp Boost.
1 Free Gold Roll Per Week.
500 (roughly $7 store value) DDO points.
None of which did you have to open the store to gain access to, it was all instantly unlocked, pay and play, and you never needed to look at the store if you didn't want to.
The only thing you needed to open the store for, was if you wanted to spend your points, but otherwise it might as well have been invisible.
But then again. DDO sells Content Packs, which IIRC, is a slightly different model then what others do, which is sell loot boxes and other pointless shit, that has gear, cosmetics, and all the stuff you should be earning in game, in the box.
But I am noticing the system of selling content is also gaining traction among other MMO's where they will make and sell small DLC content packs, DDO used to use the term Adventure Module, and now calls them Adventure Packs, where you buy the pack and then earn the rewards.
Interesting. Many of the other games "big seller" was giving a specific amount of cash shop currency each month. That's what soured my attitude. There just wasn't much in the cash shops that I would use that currency for, so it went unused month after month
PS: [edit] I wanted to add that many players like the "buy as you play' option and I can't fault them. However, I've always been a proponent of all players playing the same game. Thus my dislike of any cutting up of MMOs.
The Piecemeal system is a huge hit in DDO. The reality of it is simple, everyone knows the people in the paid content are funding the game, and as harsh as this sounds, the freeloaders can fuck off. No one wants to be the whale that has to carry everyone else, and I love this idea, you wanna play? pony up, put your quarter in with everyone else and lets do this.
With that said, selling content is the best way to keep an MMO alive, as not only does selling content keep the game funded, it also keeps the game continually growing, as they need to keep making more new content.
On top of this, this allows for them to cultivate their market, know their client in a way no other game system can. See, this way, with independent packs, they can safely try new ideas, like that cool idea in some other game that is all the hot ass that everyone wants, if it goes over like a fart in the church, they make it a one-shot and try something else. With packs, it also allows them to update some graphics, maybe even rework some old content.
Case in point, in DDO, they released Epic versions of older Heroic Content, and in doing so fixed some long standing bugs.
But selling content is a great way to keep an MMO going, what sells is what you make more of, if you try something new and it tanks like a lead balloon, you are not married to it, you just don't make more of content like that, and design your next pack a different way that maybe is more attractive to your audience.
This allows the game to really knuckle down into catering to their client and allows players to truly vote with their wallet on what they want from the game, as opposed to them just selling some cosmetic that looks like some weird amalgamation of a floating glowing captains hat with boobs out of a RNG loot Box to a few whales to keep money incoming so they can support a legion of crying freeloaders, all the while they are left to just taking a guess what players want to play, which I think is moronic, but some games do in fact do this.. I'm looking at you GW2.
Ideally, selling content is the best way to roll an MMO, you can play in the free domains, and if you like it, you can buy more of it to enjoy, Simple as that. And not really any different than Expansions, so it's not like this is some new thing for MMO's.
This way, as opposed to lootboxes and RNG whale bait, Make an Adventure pack, and put the loot, mounts, mini pets, cosmetics, whateverthefuck, into the content for players to earn, and then Sell the Pack.
This way, all the players support the game.
To grasp this, I was playing with numbers with GW2, when I was actively playing it (no doubt things have changed since) and with the population numbers I had, and their income numbers I had, GW2 was making around $5 per person per quarter. Now their lowest Gem pack is $10, so that should give an idea how few people were paying into the game monthly.
Selling a game in parts is as old as Expansions, and they have been around for a long time now.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
For me.. if it is worth my time.. it is worth money.
And furthermore you actually can play wow for free up to level 20 and get a ton of content now that you can go through all past expansions. You can also pvp in battlegrounds to your heart's content in that level bracket. I expect young naive ppl to be misinformed but why does it feel like the old people are more stupid?
Mend and Defend
Merry Christmas
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
WOW allowing you to buy sub tokens for gold does get around that issue to an extent. Assuming you don't mind grinding for the gold necessary.
It does not suddenly become free for them to maintain the systems because you are leveling an alt.
Personally I think Turbine/DDO had the right plan. Sell Content, offer a Sub for easy access and some perks to players, or allow them to buy the content piecemeal, but they are gonna pay, one way or another.
The only argument for their side that I can see goes something like, "I pay for some random video game once, and I don't have to pay keep playing it, so it's unfair that WoW makes me do this."
And they ignore that mmo's cost significantly more to maintain what with servers needing to manage hundreds of people concurrently interacting with each other, thus they charge subscription. The alternative would be the f2p model, I don't know any mmo that is both f2p and has no pay to win elements. The closest is GW2 but even their gems system seems P2W as it offers benefits that help you get better items. The only other thing that comes to mind is POE, and that's essentially no more an mmo than Diablo is.
So it's either subscription and monthly fee, or f2p and pay to win woes. One way or another maintenance and junk for mmo servers has to be collected through money. Also If ppl are pissed about not finishing Wow's story before having to commit to the monthly fee, it makes no sense. The story of an expansion essentially finishes years after the release when you take down the final big boss.
Edit: And just to kick a dead horse on WoW's fairness, if you are skilled enough, you can find ways to make enough gold ingame to be able to sell WoW tokens which essentially eliminate subscription for you. So they actually reversed the pay-2-win model. They made an available win-to-not-pay opportunity.
Edit2: I think in GW2 you can reasonably achieve what gems give you just by playing normally, so maybe gems are more just a catchup mechanc for casuals. In that case, GW2 may very well have achieved subscription-free non-p2w mmo model. Kudos to them!
Mend and Defend
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It still doesn't make sense. I checked all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King, which was released over 10 years ago. From the time of that expansion's release to the time of the final big patch for it where you finish off Arthas and end the story is over a year! So it's certainly not a new practice. The story of an expansion unfolds over the entire lifetime of the expansion in WoW... not sure why people are so offended by that.
Mend and Defend
$40, plus a mandatory $15 sub, for 10 hours of leveling is a bit much imo. Which is why I've skipped the last two expansions. I don't care about dailies, end game gearing or pvp. Why the hell am I going to pay $55 for one month of wow? Screw that.
Other MMO's have it better in that regard. There's really no debate. I can return to LOTRO or SWTOR or Guild Wars 2 at any time. WOW requires me to pay them $15 even if I just want to log in on my char.
Now if they let me do the leveling content without a sub they may get me to commit to a sub. But the way they do it they get nothing and haven't for years.
Either way, I took the emphasis of the point NOT as "OMG! I have to sub?!?", but rather more of a complaint about trying to follow the story.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The reality is, this is a HUGE point of the success of F2P/Cash Shop games, and why they remain successful, and thus will not be going away anytime soon.
The biggest drawback to Sub based games is, of course paying the sub to return.
Since F2P games launched, this became a keynote in their development that players could just return to F2P games with ease, like an old shoe, they could come back anytime.
The sub functioned as a roadblock to returning. This is a well known fact.
Developers and the Money Market people have known this for a while now... which is why this precious Sub idea that people keep hoping will see a revival.. is never going to happen... for the exact reasons you just said "You can return to any of the non-sub games with ease" and you have to pay a sub to play a sub based game.
Eureka, you now have come to understand through you own personal realization why B2P/F2P games with a Cash Shop have won the MMO war on how money will be made.
Subs are dead, with very few hold outs, like WoW, and you have clearly shown why.
The new model is to soak the customer in as many ways as possible, oh I meant offer multiple monetization options / opportunities for players to be separated from their money.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yah, Turbine did that with DDO at their their F2P launch back in 2009, so my first F2P MMO started with a Sub Option, we called it ViP, they also did the whole Free account and Paid Premium Account system, which I hear other MMO's are finally start to clue in on as well, so these are not new models to me, that is other games finally catching up to what Turbine/DDO put out over a decade ago.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I mean, DDO didn't do that with their ViP which offered:
None of which did you have to open the store to gain access to, it was all instantly unlocked, pay and play, and you never needed to look at the store if you didn't want to.
The only thing you needed to open the store for, was if you wanted to spend your points, but otherwise it might as well have been invisible.
But then again. DDO sells Content Packs, which IIRC, is a slightly different model then what others do, which is sell loot boxes and other pointless shit, that has gear, cosmetics, and all the stuff you should be earning in game, in the box.
But I am noticing the system of selling content is also gaining traction among other MMO's where they will make and sell small DLC content packs, DDO used to use the term Adventure Module, and now calls them Adventure Packs, where you buy the pack and then earn the rewards.
PS: [edit]
I wanted to add that many players like the "buy as you play' option and I can't fault them. However, I've always been a proponent of all players playing the same game. Thus my dislike of any cutting up of MMOs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
With that said, selling content is the best way to keep an MMO alive, as not only does selling content keep the game funded, it also keeps the game continually growing, as they need to keep making more new content.
On top of this, this allows for them to cultivate their market, know their client in a way no other game system can. See, this way, with independent packs, they can safely try new ideas, like that cool idea in some other game that is all the hot ass that everyone wants, if it goes over like a fart in the church, they make it a one-shot and try something else. With packs, it also allows them to update some graphics, maybe even rework some old content.
Case in point, in DDO, they released Epic versions of older Heroic Content, and in doing so fixed some long standing bugs.
But selling content is a great way to keep an MMO going, what sells is what you make more of, if you try something new and it tanks like a lead balloon, you are not married to it, you just don't make more of content like that, and design your next pack a different way that maybe is more attractive to your audience.
This allows the game to really knuckle down into catering to their client and allows players to truly vote with their wallet on what they want from the game, as opposed to them just selling some cosmetic that looks like some weird amalgamation of a floating glowing captains hat with boobs out of a RNG loot Box to a few whales to keep money incoming so they can support a legion of crying freeloaders, all the while they are left to just taking a guess what players want to play, which I think is moronic, but some games do in fact do this.. I'm looking at you GW2.
Ideally, selling content is the best way to roll an MMO, you can play in the free domains, and if you like it, you can buy more of it to enjoy, Simple as that. And not really any different than Expansions, so it's not like this is some new thing for MMO's.
This way, as opposed to lootboxes and RNG whale bait, Make an Adventure pack, and put the loot, mounts, mini pets, cosmetics, whateverthefuck, into the content for players to earn, and then Sell the Pack.
This way, all the players support the game.
To grasp this, I was playing with numbers with GW2, when I was actively playing it (no doubt things have changed since) and with the population numbers I had, and their income numbers I had, GW2 was making around $5 per person per quarter. Now their lowest Gem pack is $10, so that should give an idea how few people were paying into the game monthly.
Selling a game in parts is as old as Expansions, and they have been around for a long time now.