For every million dollar investor equal's another loan that has to be paid back costing a rise in price. An invester is not anyone's friend, it's a business deal. Higher than a bank loan.
With every investor, means someone other than the costumer that needs to be pleased.
Think deeply about that !
Cosmetic shop is an absolute now, Funny how cash shop is in sync with another high investor.... Makes you think what the return on the investment conversation and promises that were made.
Investors is NOT a good thing. It means they squandered the money they have.
The problem isn’t investors. It’s missing timelines and exceeding budgets. Once that happens the money has to come from somewhere. Either it’s investors or it’s from players via crowdfunding. But just like investors, the more money the fans put into a game, the more they expect back. But in the fans’s case it’s not money but increased expectations about the game. Plus it frequently means pre-selling things like extra accounts or game time that just delay fresh revenue at launch.
The solution is to get an accurate project plan and budget at start. The further you vary from that, the worse it gets for everyone involved.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The problem isn’t investors. It’s missing timelines and exceeding budgets. Once that happens the money has to come from somewhere.
The solution is to get an accurate project plan and budget at start. The further you vary from that, the worse it gets for everyone involved.
While I agree missing timelines and exceeding budgets are major issues driving the need for more funding, I don't believe the solution you proposed solves everything, or is even possible.
It is very challenging to predict the future, and in software development there often are assumptions which have to be made at a project start which have a high risk of being incorrect.
Old PM joke was take the worst case or longest estimate, double it, then add a few more months and you probably will still miss your date.
A common estimating technique is to look back at similar previous efforts and go up from there based on differences and improvements the new product will have.
Everyone of these indie MMORPG efforts had to know from the start that they did not have the money to build a complete game even with the most optimistic projections, so they all got started using the money on hand counting on obtaining more from either fans or investors in the future which has worked with varying degrees of success.
Back to your first point though, due to all of the inefficiency and poor project oversight, the end always stays out of reach no matter how much more money keeps rolling in.
From CU, to Crowfall to SC each has steadily obtain more and more money from fan and investors alike, staggeringly so in some cases, yet still they have no promised finish date even 6, 7, or even 8 years later when one might think most of the uncertainty should have been removed by now.
Assuming of course some level of competency which I suspect is lower than one might think as you get what you pay for, and these folks don't have a lot to offer except perhaps of a better payday someday in the future.
The best resources are going to cost more and we've seen hiring and retention being an issue for some of these teams.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem isn’t investors. It’s missing timelines and exceeding budgets. Once that happens the money has to come from somewhere.
The solution is to get an accurate project plan and budget at start. The further you vary from that, the worse it gets for everyone involved.
While I agree missing timelines and exceeding budgets are major issues driving the need for more funding, I don't believe the solution you proposed solves everything, or is even possible.
How would a project plan and budget that was accurate NOT solve all the problems? By very definition they would... or they would not be accurate right? Now whether its possible is another question. A proper budget and timeline would have to account for the items you listed. And when the math says that the amount of time and money you will likely need is far more than you think you can raise at the start... well that's a big red flag that should be telling you to re-evaluate the project.
But the main point is that we cant blame the investors. The fault is with the developer who's poor planning forced the need for the investor to come in mid development.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But the main point is that we cant blame the investors. The fault is with the developer who's poor planning forced the need for the investor to come in mid development.
Software (and in extension game) development is complex. There are literally dozens of books and many frameworks (agile, scrum, Cynefin) trying to tackle the issue and there is still ongoing research on that front. Planning helps but failing on estimates often comes out of that complexity and the unknowns of the project, not due to the devs' poor planning.
OK. Here my take.
When project after project before you is years late and millions over budget. Maybe, just MAYBE you should factor that into the budget? I mean... who looks at the last 10 similar projects, sees them off by greater than 100% on budget and just ignores that information? If we do not LEARN from the mistakes of those that came before we are doomed to repeat them. And that is exactly what we are seeing.
So yes, maybe the first few could get excused. But when you are #50 in line and you are making the same budgetary and timeline mistakes then hell yeah that's poor planning on the developers.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But the main point is that we cant blame the investors. The fault is with the developer who's poor planning forced the need for the investor to come in mid development.
Software (and in extension game) development is complex. There are literally dozens of books and many frameworks (agile, scrum, Cynefin) trying to tackle the issue and there is still ongoing research on that front. Planning helps but failing on estimates often comes out of that complexity and the unknowns of the project, not due to the devs' poor planning.
Well.. not quite. A good project plan takes into account the risks and assumptions, then adds funding and time for covering the unknown.
If what is being built is well defined and quite similar to previous efforts this "fudge factor" can be small.
However if a team is new, forging ahead to create that which never has even been attempted before, perhaps relying on unproven technology, with no idea what the funding amount and availablity might be it's not unreasonable to multiply the worse case estimate by several time over.
I would say almost every indie MMORPG validates my view, seeing as all are running three, five or even 200 times past their original budgets with release timelines totally set aside anymore.
"It will release when it's ready", never were there better words to carve on a project failure tombstone.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
He's dead and things change. Especially if they realize that they can't survive without one.
"Hey guys, we've been looking at the project and we have come to the conclusion that there is no good way forward without having some sort of cash shop. Because of this, and because of our promise not to include one we are halting development.
We think keeping this promise to our backers and those interested is paramount.
Our apologies for this rather disappointing news but thanks for helping to fund Pantheon and for your interest."
Not going to happen.
edit: I'm not saying they will put one in, only that they could see that it's the only good option. We'll see.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
But the main point is that we cant blame the investors. The fault is with the developer who's poor planning forced the need for the investor to come in mid development.
Software (and in extension game) development is complex. There are literally dozens of books and many frameworks (agile, scrum, Cynefin) trying to tackle the issue and there is still ongoing research on that front. Planning helps but failing on estimates often comes out of that complexity and the unknowns of the project, not due to the devs' poor planning.
Even the earliest project estimation techniques, like COCOMO and Function Point Analysis, *might* have been more efficient in projecting schedules. Granted, COCOMO and FPA (and almost every other estimation techniques) relied on the expertise of the person performing the analysis. The principle has always been 'determine the amount of work required, then schedule'. I really don't see most of the crowdfunded developments having a solid grasp on the amount of effort required.
But that's not unique to game development. Before I became unable to work, you could see trends in IT to completely skip the analysis and design parts of software development. This was especially true in almost any business where software wasn't the primary business product -- banking, insurance, government, etc. These businesses rely on software houses to do the analysis and design (and development) these days. Even when they do their own development, it is very frequently done haphazardly. Sadly, simplistic languages like Cobol, RPG and Basic are still prevalent computer languages in business.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
No cash shop would be ideal. But even WoW has a cash shop. The ideal choice may not be a real choice. If they do need a cash shop and actually stick to cosmetics only it will be a better situation than the players of most MMORPGs endure.
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Ya know, offering refunds to those backers not happy with the new "deal" would be the honorable approach.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think Indy developers are about as competent as the Amazon hires. I understand we expect a lot from them because we put our own money in and want them to be succeed but the probability is far less likely that they do. They are working with a team that isn't backed by a huge money tree and even games backed by a huge money tree fail.
So when we talk about standards and lofty expectations it's all useless when everything is actually hanging on a hope and a prayer. However the money that has been spent is real. At this point with any Indie game the best thing you can hope for is that they are not crooks. I definitely feel in Pantheon's case they are not.
Lot of initial excitement and work will get tampered down with time and fatigue. That's normal but our expectations and hopes don't lose their fervour while the people on the project are getting tired and feeling hopeless in some cases. This is not in reference to Pantheon but generally in any of these crowd funded projects. While it may be good to say what we think they should be doing but they aren't able to keep up the faith.
Writing about what should be done will be better served by changing Kickstarter rules and requiring more detailed accounts. Just blowing air on these boards about why these games fail or why are they not more accountable won't make any difference until the rules change on the way these developers get their money and spend it. What is more important there also has to be clear remuneration for the efforts the developers put in. This has to be clearly set out too. They should not be required to work for free because they are passionately trying to make a game because passion isn't going to pay the bills and put food on the table, so that has to be clearly defined too.
That way they don't have to justify the expenses because it would be clearly set out as a percentage of the money that has been 'donated'. We clearly need a change because of the many scams this method has funded.
The remuneration bit has to be clear so they don't get to spend it on a Ferrari and a beach house. Clear rules and regulations are what is needed.
I am astonished we are still here after 10 pages, its only cosmetics for heavens sake! I look around at unfinished titles, GAAS, whale led development, gaming management not fit for purpose and posters are having angst about outfits being sold in a game.
I am astonished we are still here after 10 pages, its only cosmetics for heavens sake! I look around at unfinished titles, GAAS, whale led development, gaming management not fit for purpose and posters are having angst about outfits being sold in a game.
I think it is a feeling of betrayal that they changed their minds about something. No one is interested in the reality or the game actually coming out, they rather nurse their feeling of betrayal and get upset and write reams about what should be done and why isn't it being done. They don't want to compromise because it is like if they give in then it is over and their dream will shatter.
I rather have a game with cosmetics than not have a game. I also want them to make a lot of money so that the game will continue for some time and not get shutdown. It should be profitable and not just break even because it has to continue so we can play it.
I think Indy developers are about as competent as the Amazon hires. I understand we expect a lot from them because we put our own money in and want them to be succeed but the probability is far less likely that they do. They are working with a team that isn't backed by a huge money tree and even games backed by a huge money tree fail.
So when we talk about standards and lofty expectations it's all useless when everything is actually hanging on a hope and a prayer. However the money that has been spent is real. At this point with any Indie game the best thing you can hope for is that they are not crooks. I definitely feel in Pantheon's case they are not.
Lot of initial excitement and work will get tampered down with time and fatigue. That's normal but our expectations and hopes don't lose their fervour while the people on the project are getting tired and feeling hopeless in some cases. This is not in reference to Pantheon but generally in any of these crowd funded projects. While it may be good to say what we think they should be doing but they aren't able to keep up the faith.
Writing about what should be done will be better served by changing Kickstarter rules and requiring more detailed accounts. Just blowing air on these boards about why these games fail or why are they not more accountable won't make any difference until the rules change on the way these developers get their money and spend it. What is more important there also has to be clear remuneration for the efforts the developers put in. This has to be clearly set out too. They should not be required to work for free because they are passionately trying to make a game because passion isn't going to pay the bills and put food on the table, so that has to be clearly defined too.
That way they don't have to justify the expenses because it would be clearly set out as a percentage of the money that has been 'donated'. We clearly need a change because of the many scams this method has funded.
The remuneration bit has to be clear so they don't get to spend it on a Ferrari and a beach house. Clear rules and regulations are what is needed.
All this sounds great in principle but unfortunately almost impossible to apply in practice. It is hard to strike the perfect balance between too loose rules (which are abusable by the studios and provide no accountability) and too restricting rules (which will limit the creativity and needed self management of the studio or worse, hand over critical decisions to the mob of angry gamers). The example about remuneration is good: will KS or whatever, under the hypothetical new rules, let room for a studio to hire a very expensive but very talented lead with proven track record, which will benefit the project? Where are the limits drawn?
Maybe 3rd party arbitration/auditing is the answer. Or limits based on industry standards/averages (which leaves less room for wiggle as a downside). Dunno.
I have concerns about regulation too, our societies tend to veer from too little to too much depending on media portrayal of the given economic activity. But I think we have seen enough to say some must come in, industry standards are a good method as long as the board that decides such cases is not stuffed full of industry insiders, those who are activists against the industry or politicians. You need a careful balance.
Any governing body that would dictate standards would be as corrupt as the government that assigns them.Everything in life that runs through government also gets manipulated by lobbyists who are basically trying to BRIBE governments to follow their agenda.
WE already have the FTC for example and I'd give them a 1/10 as an absolute garbage organization that is nothing more than a LAZY entity waiting for a cash grab.They will act if they see a big payday otherwise they sit on their asses and make it VERY tough for anyone to file a complaint.Why make it tough to uncover illegal activity,well obviously they don't want to work,they want SIMPLE easy to win big money in the media paydays.
Even when the law half assed stepped in over loot boxes ,nothing changed in reality,i know of several games still operating a gambling operation without a gambling license.
Gaming is simply spread too far and too thin for the government to care and they don't care unless an issue becomes soooooo massively big that it hits every media outlet across the globe.
Point being,don't expect any changes to thwart big business and side with the consumer,not unless some government entity can find steady payoffs from it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Ya know, offering refunds to those backers not happy with the new "deal" would be the honorable approach.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
Eh.. I disagree.
I backed Crowfall, bought the $200 dollar backer thing, I think, I forget, but, it was a good chuck of change to jump in. Ultimately I don't think it's going to be the game for me, but you don't see me crying about demanding my money back. It was a risk I took that it Might have been a game I will enjoy.
Same with any game you buy into, it's a risk that it might be the game you will love, might not. Can you imagine back in 1999, you buy EQ box set, log in, hate the game, and try to demand a refund because it wasn't exactly what you wanted, they would have laughed in your face as they said, sorry buckaroo, like all games, that sale was final, and you're not getting the $10 sub back either.
I mean, I wish I could have gotten a refund from GW2, for HoT, because that expansion was a clusterfuck of everything I hated. But that is not how things work.
It is a risk you take.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Ya know, offering refunds to those backers not happy with the new "deal" would be the honorable approach.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
Eh.. I disagree.
I backed Crowfall, bought the $200 dollar backer thing, I think, I forget, but, it was a good chuck of change to jump in. Ultimately I don't think it's going to be the game for me, but you don't see me crying about demanding my money back. It was a risk I took that it Might have been a game I will enjoy.
Same with any game you buy into, it's a risk that it might be the game you will love, might not. Can you imagine back in 1999, you buy EQ box set, log in, hate the game, and try to demand a refund because it wasn't exactly what you wanted, they would have laughed in your face as they said, sorry buckaroo, like all games, that sale was final, and you're not getting the $10 sub back either.
I mean, I wish I could have gotten a refund from GW2, for HoT, because that expansion was a clusterfuck of everything I hated. But that is not how things work.
It is a risk you take.
You know, back in the late 80s to mid 90s one could return "bad" video games to the store, I recall doing such with Ultima IV as it wouldn't run on my IBM "clone" and support wouldn't or couldn't help me get it to run on my computer.
I returned games which had bad floppies, before devs started sending replacement sets directly, and on a few occasions some went back just for being poorly made or severely lacking in content. (Anything under 50 hrs was simply unacceptable)
Gaming is one of the few products which can't easily be returned for refund, and consumers often take it on the chin because of it.
To your original point, I've never asked Mark for a refund as I also considered it a donation just to see what might happen in this grand experiment called crowd funding.
Heh, was a great lesson, never backed another game, even told MJ once he was to blame, until CU released I wasn't going to ever back another so in a way, he did me a favor, right?
Who knows, I might have been suckered in to becoming a Star citizen, no telling how much I could have tossed away.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think Indy developers are about as competent as the Amazon hires. I understand we expect a lot from them because we put our own money in and want them to be succeed but the probability is far less likely that they do. They are working with a team that isn't backed by a huge money tree and even games backed by a huge money tree fail.
So when we talk about standards and lofty expectations it's all useless when everything is actually hanging on a hope and a prayer. However the money that has been spent is real. At this point with any Indie game the best thing you can hope for is that they are not crooks. I definitely feel in Pantheon's case they are not.
Lot of initial excitement and work will get tampered down with time and fatigue. That's normal but our expectations and hopes don't lose their fervour while the people on the project are getting tired and feeling hopeless in some cases. This is not in reference to Pantheon but generally in any of these crowd funded projects. While it may be good to say what we think they should be doing but they aren't able to keep up the faith.
Writing about what should be done will be better served by changing Kickstarter rules and requiring more detailed accounts. Just blowing air on these boards about why these games fail or why are they not more accountable won't make any difference until the rules change on the way these developers get their money and spend it. What is more important there also has to be clear remuneration for the efforts the developers put in. This has to be clearly set out too. They should not be required to work for free because they are passionately trying to make a game because passion isn't going to pay the bills and put food on the table, so that has to be clearly defined too.
That way they don't have to justify the expenses because it would be clearly set out as a percentage of the money that has been 'donated'. We clearly need a change because of the many scams this method has funded.
The remuneration bit has to be clear so they don't get to spend it on a Ferrari and a beach house. Clear rules and regulations are what is needed.
Huh? The owner of the company pays his staff. He (and they) are not “working for free”. They are working for a salary and or a stake in the company. If the game makes a ton of money... they get rich.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Ya know, offering refunds to those backers not happy with the new "deal" would be the honorable approach.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
Eh.. I disagree.
I backed Crowfall, bought the $200 dollar backer thing, I think, I forget, but, it was a good chuck of change to jump in. Ultimately I don't think it's going to be the game for me, but you don't see me crying about demanding my money back. It was a risk I took that it Might have been a game I will enjoy.
Same with any game you buy into, it's a risk that it might be the game you will love, might not. Can you imagine back in 1999, you buy EQ box set, log in, hate the game, and try to demand a refund because it wasn't exactly what you wanted, they would have laughed in your face as they said, sorry buckaroo, like all games, that sale was final, and you're not getting the $10 sub back either.
I mean, I wish I could have gotten a refund from GW2, for HoT, because that expansion was a clusterfuck of everything I hated. But that is not how things work.
It is a risk you take.
You know, back in the late 80s to mid 90s one could return "bad" video games to the store, I recall doing such with Ultima IV as it wouldn't run on my IBM "clone" and support wouldn't or couldn't help me get it to run on my computer.
I returned games which had bad floppies, before devs started sending replacement sets directly, and on a few occasions some went back just for being poorly made or severely lacking in content. (Anything under 50 hrs was simply unacceptable)
Gaming is one of the few products which can't easily be returned for refund, and consumers often take it on the chin because of it.
To your original point, I've never asked Mark for a refund as I also considered it a donation just to see what might happen in this grand experiment called crowd funding.
Heh, was a great lesson, never backed another game, even told MJ once he was to blame, until CU released I wasn't going to ever back another so in a way, he did me a favor, right?
Who knows, I might have been suckered in to becoming a Star citizen, no telling how much I could have tossed away.
There was a time when we could return video games, but too many abused that ability and it was swiftly removed.
That was on us the consumers, so we are not innocent victims all things said and done, in fact games going to Steam are because of people hacking and cracking games and doing all they can to get something for free.
So again, we are no angels.
If you want to blame MJ for your decisions, I am sure he in fact laughing about it, all things said and done.
No diss, but you sound like those old grumpy dudes fussing at the cashier that they will never Shop at the Quicky Mart again, because of them, and their poor service. Like screw you old man, they don't care, and the fact that you won't come back I bet makes them happy all things said and done, go be a pest to someone else.
No diss, but that is kind how you sound.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
THis site is funny now...here we have a thread about something that may never happen in a game that may never happen and there are over 240 posts.....If we take a game taht has launched and is well established, we get a handful of posts and the thread dies...... So much of this business is now what MIGHT happen instead of what is happening.
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Ya know, offering refunds to those backers not happy with the new "deal" would be the honorable approach.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
Eh.. I disagree.
I backed Crowfall, bought the $200 dollar backer thing, I think, I forget, but, it was a good chuck of change to jump in. Ultimately I don't think it's going to be the game for me, but you don't see me crying about demanding my money back. It was a risk I took that it Might have been a game I will enjoy.
Same with any game you buy into, it's a risk that it might be the game you will love, might not. Can you imagine back in 1999, you buy EQ box set, log in, hate the game, and try to demand a refund because it wasn't exactly what you wanted, they would have laughed in your face as they said, sorry buckaroo, like all games, that sale was final, and you're not getting the $10 sub back either.
I mean, I wish I could have gotten a refund from GW2, for HoT, because that expansion was a clusterfuck of everything I hated. But that is not how things work.
It is a risk you take.
You know, back in the late 80s to mid 90s one could return "bad" video games to the store, I recall doing such with Ultima IV as it wouldn't run on my IBM "clone" and support wouldn't or couldn't help me get it to run on my computer.
I returned games which had bad floppies, before devs started sending replacement sets directly, and on a few occasions some went back just for being poorly made or severely lacking in content. (Anything under 50 hrs was simply unacceptable)
Gaming is one of the few products which can't easily be returned for refund, and consumers often take it on the chin because of it.
To your original point, I've never asked Mark for a refund as I also considered it a donation just to see what might happen in this grand experiment called crowd funding.
Heh, was a great lesson, never backed another game, even told MJ once he was to blame, until CU released I wasn't going to ever back another so in a way, he did me a favor, right?
Who knows, I might have been suckered in to becoming a Star citizen, no telling how much I could have tossed away.
There was a time when we could return video games, but too many abused that ability and it was swiftly removed.
That was on us the consumers, so we are not innocent victims all things said and done, in fact games going to Steam are because of people hacking and cracking games and doing all they can to get something for free.
So again, we are no angels.
If you want to blame MJ for your decisions, I am sure he in fact laughing about it, all things said and done.
No diss, but you sound like those old grumpy dudes fussing at the cashier that they will never Shop at the Quicky Mart again, because of them, and their poor service. Like screw you old man, they don't care, and the fact that you won't come back I bet makes them happy all things said and done, go be a pest to someone else.
No diss, but that is kind how you sound.
LOL, well "no diss" but you come across as someone who would say "thank you sir, may I have another," but hey, you do you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Torval said: So they set out to build an "old school" mmo. It's what they sold Kickstarter backers. It's what they've billed their game as since.
To be fair, the Kickstarter failed, so anything and everything they promised at that point or during it, is null and void.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
Ya know, offering refunds to those backers not happy with the new "deal" would be the honorable approach.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
Eh.. I disagree.
I backed Crowfall, bought the $200 dollar backer thing, I think, I forget, but, it was a good chuck of change to jump in. Ultimately I don't think it's going to be the game for me, but you don't see me crying about demanding my money back. It was a risk I took that it Might have been a game I will enjoy.
Same with any game you buy into, it's a risk that it might be the game you will love, might not. Can you imagine back in 1999, you buy EQ box set, log in, hate the game, and try to demand a refund because it wasn't exactly what you wanted, they would have laughed in your face as they said, sorry buckaroo, like all games, that sale was final, and you're not getting the $10 sub back either.
I mean, I wish I could have gotten a refund from GW2, for HoT, because that expansion was a clusterfuck of everything I hated. But that is not how things work.
It is a risk you take.
You know, back in the late 80s to mid 90s one could return "bad" video games to the store, I recall doing such with Ultima IV as it wouldn't run on my IBM "clone" and support wouldn't or couldn't help me get it to run on my computer.
I returned games which had bad floppies, before devs started sending replacement sets directly, and on a few occasions some went back just for being poorly made or severely lacking in content. (Anything under 50 hrs was simply unacceptable)
Gaming is one of the few products which can't easily be returned for refund, and consumers often take it on the chin because of it.
To your original point, I've never asked Mark for a refund as I also considered it a donation just to see what might happen in this grand experiment called crowd funding.
Heh, was a great lesson, never backed another game, even told MJ once he was to blame, until CU released I wasn't going to ever back another so in a way, he did me a favor, right?
Who knows, I might have been suckered in to becoming a Star citizen, no telling how much I could have tossed away.
Steam lets you return video games... Which is why all the steam sales suck now.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Kyleran said: You know, back in the late 80s to mid 90s one could return "bad" video games to the store, I recall doing such with Ultima IV as it wouldn't run on my IBM "clone" and support wouldn't or couldn't help me get it to run on my computer.
I returned games which had bad floppies, before devs started sending replacement sets directly, and on a few occasions some went back just for being poorly made or severely lacking in content. (Anything under 50 hrs was simply unacceptable)
Gaming is one of the few products which can't easily be returned for refund, and consumers often take it on the chin because of it.
To your original point, I've never asked Mark for a refund as I also considered it a donation just to see what might happen in this grand experiment called crowd funding.
Heh, was a great lesson, never backed another game, even told MJ once he was to blame, until CU released I wasn't going to ever back another so in a way, he did me a favor, right?
Who knows, I might have been suckered in to becoming a Star citizen, no telling how much I could have tossed away.
There was a time when we could return video games, but too many abused that ability and it was swiftly removed.
That was on us the consumers, so we are not innocent victims all things said and done, in fact games going to Steam are because of people hacking and cracking games and doing all they can to get something for free.
So again, we are no angels.
If you want to blame MJ for your decisions, I am sure he in fact laughing about it, all things said and done.
No diss, but you sound like those old grumpy dudes fussing at the cashier that they will never Shop at the Quicky Mart again, because of them, and their poor service. Like screw you old man, they don't care, and the fact that you won't come back I bet makes them happy all things said and done, go be a pest to someone else.
No diss, but that is kind how you sound.
LOL, well "no diss" but you come across as someone who would say "thank you sir, may I have another," but hey, you do you.
I do sound like that.. don't I?
I mean even if my overall approach is really just being stoic and accepting my own bad choices and realizing that they were my choices, and I am to blame for them.
I get that.
But keep in mind, they don't owe you anything beyond making a game. They do not owe you any control over how the game gets made or how the company gets run.
If you think you should get to tell someone else how to run their company because you bought their product, sit back in your chair at your own job and think how much you love it when people tell you how to do your job.
Especially people who really should have no authority to do so.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
You realize brad talked about cosmetics multiple times right?
...but according to him you wouldnt want to wear cosmetic items in combat because they didn't have stats.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop. Make sure you understamd what the issue is. Its cash shops.
What they sell in the cash shop doesnt make much difference in the end. It will drive away a large portion of this games target demographic. Maybe those players will get replaced by those who dont mind cash shops? Unsure? It definitely wont end up with the same/current playerbase.
Comments
The solution is to get an accurate project plan and budget at start. The further you vary from that, the worse it gets for everyone involved.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It is very challenging to predict the future, and in software development there often are assumptions which have to be made at a project start which have a high risk of being incorrect.
Old PM joke was take the worst case or longest estimate, double it, then add a few more months and you probably will still miss your date.
A common estimating technique is to look back at similar previous efforts and go up from there based on differences and improvements the new product will have.
Everyone of these indie MMORPG efforts had to know from the start that they did not have the money to build a complete game even with the most optimistic projections, so they all got started using the money on hand counting on obtaining more from either fans or investors in the future which has worked with varying degrees of success.
Back to your first point though, due to all of the inefficiency and poor project oversight, the end always stays out of reach no matter how much more money keeps rolling in.
From CU, to Crowfall to SC each has steadily obtain more and more money from fan and investors alike, staggeringly so in some cases, yet still they have no promised finish date even 6, 7, or even 8 years later when one might think most of the uncertainty should have been removed by now.
Assuming of course some level of competency which I suspect is lower than one might think as you get what you pay for, and these folks don't have a lot to offer except perhaps of a better payday someday in the future.
The best resources are going to cost more and we've seen hiring and retention being an issue for some of these teams.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But the main point is that we cant blame the investors. The fault is with the developer who's poor planning forced the need for the investor to come in mid development.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When project after project before you is years late and millions over budget. Maybe, just MAYBE you should factor that into the budget? I mean... who looks at the last 10 similar projects, sees them off by greater than 100% on budget and just ignores that information? If we do not LEARN from the mistakes of those that came before we are doomed to repeat them. And that is exactly what we are seeing.
So yes, maybe the first few could get excused. But when you are #50 in line and you are making the same budgetary and timeline mistakes then hell yeah that's poor planning on the developers.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If what is being built is well defined and quite similar to previous efforts this "fudge factor" can be small.
However if a team is new, forging ahead to create that which never has even been attempted before, perhaps relying on unproven technology, with no idea what the funding amount and availablity might be it's not unreasonable to multiply the worse case estimate by several time over.
I would say almost every indie MMORPG validates my view, seeing as all are running three, five or even 200 times past their original budgets with release timelines totally set aside anymore.
"It will release when it's ready", never were there better words to carve on a project failure tombstone.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
They are only held to the KS advert if it succeeds, otherwise, it is just a advert with no legal weight.
Equally so, with the passing of The Vision, (RIP, you will be missed), the new CEO/Head of the company is not bound by anything the previous one said unless there was a written contract, which I am sure does not exist.
The No Cash Shop may have been Brad's Vision, but much like when he was removed from Sony, his Vision went with him. Sad really, but reality often is harsh and sad.
But then again, there's no honor among thieves, or game devs either, same difference I suppose.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So when we talk about standards and lofty expectations it's all useless when everything is actually hanging on a hope and a prayer. However the money that has been spent is real. At this point with any Indie game the best thing you can hope for is that they are not crooks. I definitely feel in Pantheon's case they are not.
Lot of initial excitement and work will get tampered down with time and fatigue. That's normal but our expectations and hopes don't lose their fervour while the people on the project are getting tired and feeling hopeless in some cases. This is not in reference to Pantheon but generally in any of these crowd funded projects. While it may be good to say what we think they should be doing but they aren't able to keep up the faith.
Writing about what should be done will be better served by changing Kickstarter rules and requiring more detailed accounts. Just blowing air on these boards about why these games fail or why are they not more accountable won't make any difference until the rules change on the way these developers get their money and spend it. What is more important there also has to be clear remuneration for the efforts the developers put in. This has to be clearly set out too. They should not be required to work for free because they are passionately trying to make a game because passion isn't going to pay the bills and put food on the table, so that has to be clearly defined too.
That way they don't have to justify the expenses because it would be clearly set out as a percentage of the money that has been 'donated'. We clearly need a change because of the many scams this method has funded.
The remuneration bit has to be clear so they don't get to spend it on a Ferrari and a beach house. Clear rules and regulations are what is needed.
I rather have a game with cosmetics than not have a game. I also want them to make a lot of money so that the game will continue for some time and not get shutdown. It should be profitable and not just break even because it has to continue so we can play it.
WE already have the FTC for example and I'd give them a 1/10 as an absolute garbage organization that is nothing more than a LAZY entity waiting for a cash grab.They will act if they see a big payday otherwise they sit on their asses and make it VERY tough for anyone to file a complaint.Why make it tough to uncover illegal activity,well obviously they don't want to work,they want SIMPLE easy to win big money in the media paydays.
Even when the law half assed stepped in over loot boxes ,nothing changed in reality,i know of several games still operating a gambling operation without a gambling license.
Gaming is simply spread too far and too thin for the government to care and they don't care unless an issue becomes soooooo massively big that it hits every media outlet across the globe.
Point being,don't expect any changes to thwart big business and side with the consumer,not unless some government entity can find steady payoffs from it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I backed Crowfall, bought the $200 dollar backer thing, I think, I forget, but, it was a good chuck of change to jump in. Ultimately I don't think it's going to be the game for me, but you don't see me crying about demanding my money back. It was a risk I took that it Might have been a game I will enjoy.
Same with any game you buy into, it's a risk that it might be the game you will love, might not. Can you imagine back in 1999, you buy EQ box set, log in, hate the game, and try to demand a refund because it wasn't exactly what you wanted, they would have laughed in your face as they said, sorry buckaroo, like all games, that sale was final, and you're not getting the $10 sub back either.
I mean, I wish I could have gotten a refund from GW2, for HoT, because that expansion was a clusterfuck of everything I hated. But that is not how things work.
It is a risk you take.
I returned games which had bad floppies, before devs started sending replacement sets directly, and on a few occasions some went back just for being poorly made or severely lacking in content. (Anything under 50 hrs was simply unacceptable)
Gaming is one of the few products which can't easily be returned for refund, and consumers often take it on the chin because of it.
To your original point, I've never asked Mark for a refund as I also considered it a donation just to see what might happen in this grand experiment called crowd funding.
Heh, was a great lesson, never backed another game, even told MJ once he was to blame, until CU released I wasn't going to ever back another so in a way, he did me a favor, right?
Who knows, I might have been suckered in to becoming a Star citizen, no telling how much I could have tossed away.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That was on us the consumers, so we are not innocent victims all things said and done, in fact games going to Steam are because of people hacking and cracking games and doing all they can to get something for free.
So again, we are no angels.
If you want to blame MJ for your decisions, I am sure he in fact laughing about it, all things said and done.
No diss, but you sound like those old grumpy dudes fussing at the cashier that they will never Shop at the Quicky Mart again, because of them, and their poor service. Like screw you old man, they don't care, and the fact that you won't come back I bet makes them happy all things said and done, go be a pest to someone else.
No diss, but that is kind how you sound.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I mean even if my overall approach is really just being stoic and accepting my own bad choices and realizing that they were my choices, and I am to blame for them.
I get that.
But keep in mind, they don't owe you anything beyond making a game. They do not owe you any control over how the game gets made or how the company gets run.
If you think you should get to tell someone else how to run their company because you bought their product, sit back in your chair at your own job and think how much you love it when people tell you how to do your job.
Especially people who really should have no authority to do so.
...but according to him you wouldnt want to wear cosmetic items in combat because they didn't have stats.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop. Make sure you understamd what the issue is. Its cash shops.
What they sell in the cash shop doesnt make much difference in the end. It will drive away a large portion of this games target demographic.
Maybe those players will get replaced by those who dont mind cash shops? Unsure? It definitely wont end up with the same/current playerbase.