I would be happy with a WOW 2 if they kept everything the same except for a new world environment, different races, and a new storyline. The only thing that bores me about WOW right new is I've been through the world so much that there is nothing new to discover.
I'm all about exploring new worlds. That's why I enjoy games so much!
I think that ship has sailed...I would rather see a brand new world like "World of Starcraft" or something like that.
Like @cameltosis said vanilla WoW is seriously the most themepark game ever made which is basically the opposite of vast open world with everything else you described. Can you maybe be a little more specific in what exactly YOU would want to see in a game rather than saying stuff like " kinda like this game but not like that game etc etc". Here let me give you an example of what I'd want to see in the future for MMO's based on my current gaming habits.
- Premade characters obtained in a variety of ways. Some by playing some by paying.
- Lobby MMO with player hub like Marvel Heroes & MXM to show off shinies.
- 3 tag out system like in Lego Minifigures Online, Injustice 1 & 2(mobile), MXM
- Variety of different zones/activities to queue for from lobby including open world'ish similar to wilderness areas in DDO. Queue system basically copying DCUO which greatly rewards you for everything you do.
- Loot system with BOOM that's similar to ARPG or a game I play called Gems of War(Steam) that gives you jackpot loot during any activity so you aren't forced into farming stuff in just one way.
- Tons of micromanaging/resource to keep you occupied with constant character improvement similar to mobile games like Summoners War and Marvel Strike Force
- Lots of social tools and rewards available as incentive to participate heavily with guilds/others.
- Game design + systems in place that allow both whales and ftp players to enjoy their experience without being too overwhelming risking burnout.
- If PVP exists don't make it a very serious aspect to the point where it makes players quit. My idea of a well designed pvp system is Gems of War because it has match 3 that throws RNG into the equation.
Make your list with specifics please cause I'd like to read it.
I think that ship has sailed...I would rather see a brand new world like "World of Starcraft" or something like that.
With a fast glance, Statcraft would be nice, But how would you be able to play a human character, your limited to being a Space Marine, after all how can you play a tank or any other heavy unit. Sure you could ride in them ?
Playing Zerg ?... how would that work.
It's doable but the game would have to be extremely revamped and have to make new classes. The Zerg would have to be non playable mobs.
If you really think deeply of the implications it would be hard to make.
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
Going to different places in WoW is like choosing which parks to go to. Once there, you are "railed"/restricted to the things that are designed for you to do there. The contents are designed to be ran through very specifically with clear progression (how to get the next step of a quest/story line, how to unlock an area or item, etc).
Sure you can play how you want within the confine of these parks, but that freedom is in all games, even single players one and even arcade games (albeit much more limited).
Sandboxes, in most cases, are designed as a settings first with very little scripted things (stories, progression for levels or gears, specific play style with classes, etc). It is up to the players to create their own contents. For example, in EVE, you and your friends can decide to just group up for mining together for a few hours, or go kill pirates, or attack another player corps space station. There's no quests for it. There's no one saying you have to do it, and you can just stop doing it if you want and do something else.
That's a sandbox -- the game mechanics are there for travel, combat, economy, socialization, etc, but the actual motivation for why a player would play is entirely up to the player.
There's a common argument (which is fair) that in theme-parks game, players can always choose how to play and what their end goals are (to hit max level, to complete a story line, to farm for drops, best in pvp, etc), and that theme parks game *can* also be a sandbox. And the good theme parks game have LOTS of end goals you can strive for (such as WoW).
However, I think the main difference is that in sandbox games, the *intent* of the design of the world is for players to inhabit it, and not provide contents that players can *beat* and complete by running through scripted contents (even if there's many). Game like EVE and Minecraft gives you the functionality of a world, but very little scripted contents and players must find and make their own by living in it.
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
Going to different places in WoW is like choosing which parks to go to. Once there, you are "railed"/restricted to the things that are designed for you to do there. The contents are designed to be ran through very specifically with clear progression (how to get the next step of a quest/story line, how to unlock an area or item, etc).
Sure you can play how you want within the confine of these parks, but that freedom is in all games, even single players one and even arcade games (albeit much more limited).
Sandboxes, in most cases, are designed as a settings first with very little scripted things (stories, progression for levels or gears, specific play style with classes, etc). It is up to the players to create their own contents. For example, in EVE, you and your friends can decide to just group up for mining together for a few hours, or go kill pirates, or attack another player corps space station. There's no quests for it. There's no one saying you have to do it, and you can just stop doing it if you want and do something else.
That's a sandbox -- the game mechanics are there for travel, combat, economy, socialization, etc, but the actual motivation for why a player would play is entirely up to the player.
There's a common argument (which is fair) that in theme-parks game, players can always choose how to play and what their end goals are (to hit max level, to complete a story line, to farm for drops, best in pvp, etc), and that theme parks game *can* also be a sandbox. And the good theme parks game have LOTS of end goals you can strive for (such as WoW).
However, I think the main difference is that in sandbox games, the *intent* of the design of the world is for players to inhabit it, and not provide contents that players can *beat* and complete by running through scripted contents (even if there's many). Game like EVE and Minecraft gives you the functionality of a world, but very little scripted contents and players must find and make their own by living in it.
At first I disagree, but as I read on I realize your describing recent retail WoW and I'm talking Vanilla WoW, I never specified in my description. Retail WoW is a completely different game as it's original game.
If you were talking about Vanilla WoW. moving from city to city or town to town and talking quest and doing them, farming materials or simply passing through. I still consider that freedom.
Sandbox description to me is you have almost nothing at all and you start with a crud axe and start chopping, sure you can have props prebuilt like 7 days to die, but your still crafting your own stuff to survive.
But then again, I could be wrong in this communities description.
I also don't think the OP understands the meaning of the word "basic". Go anywhere you want, play any way you want, do anything you want.....that's not basic. That is exceedingly complex.
Argument seems to be more along the lines of "sandbox is better than themepark", except delete keeps referring to WoW as being awesome, which is the very definition of a themepark.
More interesting, OP has actually never played any sort of sandbox style game, so mistakenly holds up WOW as the epitome of open world gaming...
Go figure....
I want to make a few points, but I'll answer this one too.
First I like what the poster just above this one said.... He used "feel like" several times. That's great, it suggest he has choices. Freedom !!..... Remember 15 years back when mmorpgs were on the rise. they were all good, they could do no wrong and people loved them so much. The only complaint was not your style, but that was ok because you had choices.
I played WoW, and tried talking someone at work into playing it. He wouldn't budge he liked Final Fantasy XI. In fact it had a reverse effect, he got me interested in trying FF11. I was hyped so I purchased it. Problem was I couldn't map the keys and cam to a desired combination no matter how hard I tried (all day). Finally I called him "what gives with the controls ?"..... This is where he admitted mainly for xbox, didn't know that !
Please, don't go into an explanation on how to make it work..... That's not the point. The point was their were a lot of choices for GREAT MMOPRG'S.
Not just GREAT MMORPG'S for my brand, but for everyone (millions). They were all loved. Their were no complaints here other than revelry (my game is better than yours).
Now what's F#%$ UP is, most everyone agrees that mmorpgs now days suck !!! Prove it: 1) Topics such as "go beck to days of old" topics are popular, MOST VIEWED.
2) People here are complete hypocrites.... They say one thing in one OP, then talk against it in another. Infact way more viewers than not..... Many here don't like what I say, they think I have no respect.... Well how could I.... their flat out hypocrites !!!!
3) Non the less, the over all vote is mmorpgs suck now !.... And nothing to play, and they say it, then turn around and argue against it..... it truly is F#%$ UP. My respect for this community is near zero, with few exceptions.
4) Going back a few years Pantheon was by far a "hot topic". Infact it had more views than the Pub itself. MOST loved it, the F2P group was small potato's compared to the likes. It's Old school.... The same hypocrites, that like old school, would say they hate old school. How can you have respect ?
The above is FACT, it's absolute.... To argue against it, is simply a crafty way of getting out of being accused of being a hypocrite. A crafty play on words !!!
@Kyleran I have some respect for you, at least you don't contradict what you say, you simply don't say what you like or dislike... you play a careful game of not being a hypocrite. You play a smarter game than most here. Your smart and careful not to get pined down like most here....Smart !
HOWEVER you know I want old school, yet you like to have fun like most others by leaving out the part that P1999 is a crap game. IT'S OLD AND DOES NOT WORK ! It can be forced to work, but only the Veterans of that era will try....It's crap.
You talk about me liking WoW. Yes I do !.... I like first and second generation mmorpg's. They have choices, different paths.... Freedom !
I'm not a Hypocrite like most, I say it. I keep no allegiance to Hypocrites.
I don't care that my spelling and grammar is awful. Anyone can come to my house will talk about it.... That way I can show you how you say one thing then another. 95% of you.
Firstly WoW even in its vanilla times was a very easy game. Your experience has been with WoW which is fine and nothing to be ashamed of. No need to be defensive about that.
However in my opinion you went into games like P99 which is almost the experience original Everquest was except easier since we have all come a long way since then and players are very generous on P99 and give away a lot of gear. You found the game was not something you could enjoy or play comfortably and this is not a criticism, you seized upon a reason to explain that reluctance you felt. You could not admit you didn't want to play it because you have professed loudly and frequently how much you want to play old school games.
The reason I'm saying this is that your grouse about Everquest P99 is not something you could not have overcome had you wanted to actually play the game. I've never found any issue with the UI and I was able to map everything to my mouse which is my favourite thing these days since I discovered multi button mice. I have doubts your inability to play has much to do with the UI. I just wish you would be honest about that.
This was only further demonstrated when you complained about FFXI. I do admit that the fact that you cannot see the UI until you hit alt, control or shift not sure which key, then it will pop on to the screen is a little disconcerting. However it wasn't something you could not have overcome with a little effort on your part. There wasn't any other problem with that game either except like Everquest these games do employ older UIs. An inconvenience someone with an actual desire to play them will find easy to accept.
In spite of your constant protestations that you enjoy old school games what you want is a game like WoW which isn't old school. That is the game you're comfortable in and quite honestly I don't see any issue with that. You don't have to prove anything to anyone and you do not have to malign P99 and call it a crap game because you could not like it.
Perhaps you found it unfathomable that your dear wish to play an old school game came face to face with the reality that they were not a lot of fun after all. These games are hard to like and may be you're right only us old veterans who played them originally like them however when I last played on P99 quite a few new players were on the forums who had never played Everquest were thrilled about the game and enjoying it.
I know you cherish your position on these forums as some sort of straight talker who is telling us all about what old school is and it would be embarrassing for you to admit you didn't like the old school games. I can see your quandary. I hope I am not giving your dictionary a workout.
A stagnant world with many avenues, many directions, choose your own path. A world where the player decides how he plays.
Sounds boring ?..... Counter intuitive for the people asking for more and more gimmicks ?
Well, seriously ask your self ?.... Gimmicks get old fast anyway right ?...... The best gimmick EVER sucks after X2 of being played.
- Dynamic Events where everyone runs to the excitement is a worn out gimmick. - Flash bang, boom of graphics is a warn out gimmick. - interactive puzzle solving is a worn out gimmick. - Personal story lines is a warn out gimmick. - Stop and watch a video is a warn out gimmick.
Lost is a gimmick free world where the players are handed a world, do what ever you want.
Let the player run free..... People would love a modern Everquest 1
We need more "gifted artist" to make a pleasant, charming world.... not hyped up kids on energy drinks making our games.
Many people put their faith in Visionary Realms as "gifted artist", but what were seeing is money hungry weird-o's making Pantheon.
To this day I can play Vanilla World of Warcraft. Stop and watch the sun set on the shores of Darkshore and smell the smells of the beach.
Obnoxious is at "level one", running for relief from a shaking screen in an all out war like in Rift. I hold them responsible for the brain tumor they removed in my head last year..... Very irritating !
If you disagree..... your hyped up on energy drinks..... Put that in your pipe and smoke it
Routinely critiquing and dismissing everything you dislike while endlessly professing that which you do to be the only true path is a worn out gimmick.
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
World of Warcraft is THE themepark.
It takes themepark elements from Everquest and distills them down to very easily digested bits.
A themepark game is a game where you solely run developer made content. Essentially "quests, raids, battlegrounds for points or whatever."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
WoW couldn't be any more theme park. Your level limits where you can go at all early on, and where you can progress effectively later on. Characters are locked into whatever narrow band of content is currently applicable to them, moving from one to another in orderly fashion from first level to the current maximum, whereupon they are largely confined to the gerbil wheel of the latest released endgame content.
I think that ship has sailed...I would rather see a brand new world like "World of Starcraft" or something like that.
With a fast glance, Statcraft would be nice, But how would you be able to play a human character, your limited to being a Space Marine, after all how can you play a tank or any other heavy unit. Sure you could ride in them ?
Playing Zerg ?... how would that work.
It's doable but the game would have to be extremely revamped and have to make new classes. The Zerg would have to be non playable mobs.
If you really think deeply of the implications it would be hard to make.
Well WoW is considerably different than Warcraft 3
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
To me, the predominant feature of a Themepark is in how XP is rewarded by the game. If the Quests give a majority of the XP as opposed to simply killing, I'll call it a themepark. WoW is most definitely a themepark by this definition, as are EQ2, SW:TOR and later games. while EQ1, DAoC, AC and UO weren't. Your experience may differ, but that works for me.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
More interesting, OP has actually never played any sort of sandbox style game, so mistakenly holds up WOW as the epitome of open world gaming...
Go figure....
Now what's F#%$ UP is, most everyone agrees that mmorpgs now days suck !!!
The above is FACT, it's absolute.... To argue against it, is simply a crafty way of getting out of being accused of being a hypocrite. A crafty play on words !!!
@Kyleran I have some respect for you, at least you don't contradict what you say, you simply don't say what you like or dislike... you play a careful game of not being a hypocrite. You play a smarter game than most here. Your smart and careful not to get pined down like most here....Smart !
I'm not a Hypocrite like most, I say it.
I learned a very long time ago what I like or dislike isn't really important to anyone but me so I tend to focus my conversations on what is or what isn't, trying to discern reality from people's perceptions.
Were you to check carefully you would sometimes find me arguing opposite positions, especially on the topic of whether modern MMORPGs suck, are dead etc. or not.
Every once in a while an old thread gets dredged up and I'm surprised to read some of the arguments I made back then.
More than once I've beaten both sides of a dead horse, I just change sticks.
What I focus mostly on is when others attempt to post their opinions or recollections as absolute facts which cannot be argued against.
Like a moth drawn to flame, I'll search the internet, employ a variety of forum chat techniques or tricks to disprove their assertions and reveal the "truth," as I see it of course.
In short, much like my Grandfather before me, I enjoy a good argument, regardless of topic, but others sometimes view my efforts as ing, go figure.
Finally, keep in mind, for me it's almost never personal, but I will confess my dark heart enjoys winding up people who clearly show great passion on a subject.
Why? Because I don't think gaming is a worthy subject to be passionate about so it's up to me to show them the error of their ways.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
WoW couldn't be any more theme park. Your level limits where you can go at all early on, and where you can progress effectively later on. Characters are locked into whatever narrow band of content is currently applicable to them, moving from one to another in orderly fashion from first level to the current maximum, whereupon they are largely confined to the gerbil wheel of the latest released endgame content.
First off, you knocked down my beloved Vanilla World of Warcraft down to a stinking pile of dog do-do.... That means WAR !!!!!..... Only kidding, I don't care
Second you accomplished TWO things not just ONE at the same time. You trashed WoW and made themparks sound real bad..... very crafty on your part
Last, I was about to understand what a thempark is by your definition until two post down we get another definition.... It's like this community does not really have a definition and still confused.
Until a good consensus is made.... I'll have to assume it's EVERY GAME, unless you start off naked with a rock in your hand and beat a tree with it to get some water in the middle of a desert to have enough stamina to fight the only snake in visible distance with the same rock...... And if the game has a single quest, then it's back to be considered a thempark...... Right ?... Did I nail it ?
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
WoW couldn't be any more theme park. Your level limits where you can go at all early on, and where you can progress effectively later on. Characters are locked into whatever narrow band of content is currently applicable to them, moving from one to another in orderly fashion from first level to the current maximum, whereupon they are largely confined to the gerbil wheel of the latest released endgame content.
First off, you knocked down my beloved Vanilla World of Warcraft down to a stinking pile of dog do-do.... That means WAR !!!!!..... Only kidding, I don't care
Second you accomplished TWO things not just ONE at the same time. You trashed WoW and made themparks sound real bad..... very crafty on your part
Last, I was about to understand what a thempark is by your definition until two post down we get another definition.... It's like this community does not really have a definition and still confused.
Until a good consensus is made.... I'll have to assume it's EVERY GAME, unless you start off naked with a rock in your hand and beat a tree with it to get some water in the middle of a desert to have enough stamina to fight the only snake in visible distance with the same rock...... And if the game has a single quest, then it's back to be considered a thempark...... Right ?... Did I nail it ?
No, generally the consensus is defined by the way previous games were commonly perceived.
Sandbox lists typically include UO, AC2, SWG, EVE, LiF, Darkfall, Ryzom, ED
Themepark list, WOW, EQ2, SWTOR, LotRO, AoC, Aion, FFXIV, TSW, GW2, ESO, and many more.
There's a lot of gray of course, so games like EQ1, Lineage 1/2, FFXI, New World don't fit neatly into either category, and for sure there are some who will argue a particular game belongs on the other list.
My view on sandboxes is like this, 'you know them when you play them' as the experience is far less directed.
Players often find themselves struggling to figure a direction to go as they aren't designed to push a player towards any specific path, unlike theme parks which clearly provide an optimal path which exists even if players choose to ignore it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
WoW couldn't be any more theme park. Your level limits where you can go at all early on, and where you can progress effectively later on. Characters are locked into whatever narrow band of content is currently applicable to them, moving from one to another in orderly fashion from first level to the current maximum, whereupon they are largely confined to the gerbil wheel of the latest released endgame content.
First off, you knocked down my beloved Vanilla World of Warcraft down to a stinking pile of dog do-do.... That means WAR !!!!!..... Only kidding, I don't care
Second you accomplished TWO things not just ONE at the same time. You trashed WoW and made themparks sound real bad..... very crafty on your part
Last, I was about to understand what a thempark is by your definition until two post down we get another definition.... It's like this community does not really have a definition and still confused.
Until a good consensus is made.... I'll have to assume it's EVERY GAME, unless you start off naked with a rock in your hand and beat a tree with it to get some water in the middle of a desert to have enough stamina to fight the only snake in visible distance with the same rock...... And if the game has a single quest, then it's back to be considered a thempark...... Right ?... Did I nail it ?
World of Warcraft has always been a theme park. I remember trying in in beta and thinking how streamlined and guided it was compared to Lineage 2.
At the time I thought that some of that could be incorporated into new mmorpg's, such as giving backstory to a quest as opposed to just going to a field to grind.
Sadly, my wish was fulfilled.
lastly, somewhere on this site is a large thread entitled "Sandbox vs Themepark" or some such thing where people go back and forth arguing what are the definitions of each.
I don't recall anyone ever saying that World of Warcraft was anything "but" a theme park."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
WoW couldn't be any more theme park. Your level limits where you can go at all early on, and where you can progress effectively later on. Characters are locked into whatever narrow band of content is currently applicable to them, moving from one to another in orderly fashion from first level to the current maximum, whereupon they are largely confined to the gerbil wheel of the latest released endgame content.
First off, you knocked down my beloved Vanilla World of Warcraft down to a stinking pile of dog do-do.... That means WAR !!!!!..... Only kidding, I don't care
Second you accomplished TWO things not just ONE at the same time. You trashed WoW and made themparks sound real bad..... very crafty on your part
Last, I was about to understand what a thempark is by your definition until two post down we get another definition.... It's like this community does not really have a definition and still confused.
Until a good consensus is made.... I'll have to assume it's EVERY GAME, unless you start off naked with a rock in your hand and beat a tree with it to get some water in the middle of a desert to have enough stamina to fight the only snake in visible distance with the same rock...... And if the game has a single quest, then it's back to be considered a thempark...... Right ?... Did I nail it ?
I was speaking of WoW in general as the theme park nature of the game has been consistent throughout so far as I know.
I wasn't trashing WoW, simply describing the nature of it. Seeing as WoW still has a large number of players what they do remains quite popular.
Gaming definitions and consensus are infrequent bedfellows.
Your description is more applicable to a survival game than anything else.
My shorthand view of the difference is this: If the game drives the players it is a theme park. If the players drive the game it is a sandbox.
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
Yeh, you don't understand what themepark and sandbox means.
A themepark game is exactly like a themepark in real life: you enter the park, choose your ride, and receive the experience that has been designed and curated for you.
The rides can come in the form of quests, dungeons, raids, or whatever. The point is that the content has been designed for you by a dev, and so everyone who experiences that content will experience pretty much the same thing.
Now, a themepark game can be either linear or non-linear, open-world or not open. The point is that the content is designed by the devs to be experienced in a specific way. You're on a ride.
A sandbox, conversely, is not about designed content. Just like real life, sandbox is about giving you the tools (sand, spade, bucket, flags etc) and then letting the player create their own experiences using those tools.
Now, if you don't give the players many tools, the sandbox won't be much fun. If you give them lots of tools then they have more options and create more interesting experiences.
PvP is the quintessential sandbox feature. The devs give us the tools (combat mechanics and a zone) but we, the players, create the experience.
Player cities in SWG are another example: devs gave us the tools, but we decided where to build the cities, where to place the houses and how to decorate them and what services to add.
So, when you look at WoW, the overwhelming majority of features in the game are themepark. They've been designed and curated by the devs. The only feature that is sandbox is it's PvP.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
Yeh, you don't understand what themepark and sandbox means.
A themepark game is exactly like a themepark in real life: you enter the park, choose your ride, and receive the experience that has been designed and curated for you.
The rides can come in the form of quests, dungeons, raids, or whatever. The point is that the content has been designed for you by a dev, and so everyone who experiences that content will experience pretty much the same thing.
Now, a themepark game can be either linear or non-linear, open-world or not open. The point is that the content is designed by the devs to be experienced in a specific way. You're on a ride.
A sandbox, conversely, is not about designed content. Just like real life, sandbox is about giving you the tools (sand, spade, bucket, flags etc) and then letting the player create their own experiences using those tools.
Now, if you don't give the players many tools, the sandbox won't be much fun. If you give them lots of tools then they have more options and create more interesting experiences.
PvP is the quintessential sandbox feature. The devs give us the tools (combat mechanics and a zone) but we, the players, create the experience.
Player cities in SWG are another example: devs gave us the tools, but we decided where to build the cities, where to place the houses and how to decorate them and what services to add.
So, when you look at WoW, the overwhelming majority of features in the game are themepark. They've been designed and curated by the devs. The only feature that is sandbox is it's PvP.
Great, totally cleared that up, very good in detail explanation. Thanks
I guess like theamparks then, First gen games must be in-between, because Yes, they have prebuilt cities, the quest are in the form of guides that suggest you can search something out if you choose.
Is EQ1 sandbox or thempark ?... Seems somewhat of a gray area, but leaning towards theampark in some ways. I guess it doesn't matter much if it is in a gray area. it's just a word anyway.
WoW was probably the first real themepark I played....EQ1 wasn't really a themepark, nor was Anarchy....EQ2 didnt become one until they revamped to WoW II.....I don't really remember any of the MMOs pre-WoW being true themeparks.
Themepark, I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
Yeh, you don't understand what themepark and sandbox means.
A themepark game is exactly like a themepark in real life: you enter the park, choose your ride, and receive the experience that has been designed and curated for you.
The rides can come in the form of quests, dungeons, raids, or whatever. The point is that the content has been designed for you by a dev, and so everyone who experiences that content will experience pretty much the same thing.
Now, a themepark game can be either linear or non-linear, open-world or not open. The point is that the content is designed by the devs to be experienced in a specific way. You're on a ride.
A sandbox, conversely, is not about designed content. Just like real life, sandbox is about giving you the tools (sand, spade, bucket, flags etc) and then letting the player create their own experiences using those tools.
Now, if you don't give the players many tools, the sandbox won't be much fun. If you give them lots of tools then they have more options and create more interesting experiences.
PvP is the quintessential sandbox feature. The devs give us the tools (combat mechanics and a zone) but we, the players, create the experience.
Player cities in SWG are another example: devs gave us the tools, but we decided where to build the cities, where to place the houses and how to decorate them and what services to add.
So, when you look at WoW, the overwhelming majority of features in the game are themepark. They've been designed and curated by the devs. The only feature that is sandbox is it's PvP.
Great, totally cleared that up, very good in detail explanation. Thanks
I guess like theamparks then, First gen games must be in-between, because Yes, they have prebuilt cities, the quest are in the form of guides that suggest you can search something out if you choose.
Is EQ1 sandbox or thempark ?... Seems somewhat of a gray area, but leaning towards theampark in some ways. I guess it doesn't matter much if it is in a gray area. it's just a word anyway.
No problem, and its no crime to enjoy themeparks, many players do, it's pretty much 95% of the market.
Sandbox vs Themepark isn't a binary label either, it's a sliding scale. No MMO I know of is exclusively one or the other but somewhere on the scale. If the majority of features are sandbox, then it's a sandbox, if the majority are themepark, its a themepark. If its a more balanced approach, then they're often referred to as sandparks.
EQ1, as far as im aware, was a themepark, but it was a bit before my time so can't say for certain. I do know it's the game that Blizzard primarily used for inspiration, taking the rough features of EQ1 and polishing them up for WoW and the mass market.
Where the conversation gets interesting for me is the suitability of each design approach for a long-term mmorpg.
With a themepark approach, its comparatively easy to design and implement, it's just time consuming to do so. The players will always consume the content faster than the devs can create. Always. So, retention of players relies on making repetition fun or worthwhile (e.g. raid loot to encourage us to repeat raids) or putting articificial barriers in place to slow down consumption. However, being told what to do and when is easy for players, we like it, we feel comforted knowing we're on the right track, enjoying the ride.
Sandboxes, on the other hand, are hard to design and implement, but can actually be much quicker to implement once you know what you're doing. Once you've implemented it, players can potentially play forever, finding new and creative ways to employ the tools you've given them. "Emergent Gameplay" is the buzzword/term you're looking for here, this is when players use the tools you've given them to play the game in ways unintended by the developers. This is much better suited to a long running game, however, players don't know what they're "supposed" to do. The systems are often very complex and confusing, so it can be very off-putting.
For reference, we've never had a AAA sandbox MMORPG. So, the whole design philosophy remains largely untapped, unrealised potential. This means any discussions on it being good or bad can't really be quantified, we still need a dev studio to take that risk and actually invest in it. Hopefully it would be a success, spawning a host of new sandbox games being developed, but it could equally be a failure.
My preference is for sandparks: a nice blend between themepark and sandbox. If think we need to sandbox systems to keep the game interesting long term, but I also think we need some quests, raids and dungeons to help direct gameplay and educate us on how all the systems actually work.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Comments
I think that ship has sailed...I would rather see a brand new world like "World of Starcraft" or something like that.
But how would you be able to play a human character, your limited to being a Space Marine, after all how can you play a tank or any other heavy unit. Sure you could ride in them ?
Playing Zerg ?... how would that work.
It's doable but the game would have to be extremely revamped and have to make new classes. The Zerg would have to be non playable mobs.
If you really think deeply of the implications it would be hard to make.
I don't think I understand the communities definition it. I View a themepark as on rails with a full story line. Sure WoW has a backround story, but one of the only ones, you DON'T play the story line.
WoW by my definition, you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want. And only limited to future level zones. You can even play dungeons solo if you high enough.
Everyone calls WoW a themepark.... I'm not sure ?
Sure you can play how you want within the confine of these parks, but that freedom is in all games, even single players one and even arcade games (albeit much more limited).
Sandboxes, in most cases, are designed as a settings first with very little scripted things (stories, progression for levels or gears, specific play style with classes, etc). It is up to the players to create their own contents. For example, in EVE, you and your friends can decide to just group up for mining together for a few hours, or go kill pirates, or attack another player corps space station. There's no quests for it. There's no one saying you have to do it, and you can just stop doing it if you want and do something else.
That's a sandbox -- the game mechanics are there for travel, combat, economy, socialization, etc, but the actual motivation for why a player would play is entirely up to the player.
There's a common argument (which is fair) that in theme-parks game, players can always choose how to play and what their end goals are (to hit max level, to complete a story line, to farm for drops, best in pvp, etc), and that theme parks game *can* also be a sandbox. And the good theme parks game have LOTS of end goals you can strive for (such as WoW).
However, I think the main difference is that in sandbox games, the *intent* of the design of the world is for players to inhabit it, and not provide contents that players can *beat* and complete by running through scripted contents (even if there's many). Game like EVE and Minecraft gives you the functionality of a world, but very little scripted contents and players must find and make their own by living in it.
If you were talking about Vanilla WoW. moving from city to city or town to town and talking quest and doing them, farming materials or simply passing through. I still consider that freedom.
Sandbox description to me is you have almost nothing at all and you start with a crud axe and start chopping, sure you can have props prebuilt like 7 days to die, but your still crafting your own stuff to survive.
But then again, I could be wrong in this communities description.
Firstly WoW even in its vanilla times was a very easy game. Your experience has been with WoW which is fine and nothing to be ashamed of. No need to be defensive about that.
However in my opinion you went into games like P99 which is almost the experience original Everquest was except easier since we have all come a long way since then and players are very generous on P99 and give away a lot of gear. You found the game was not something you could enjoy or play comfortably and this is not a criticism, you seized upon a reason to explain that reluctance you felt. You could not admit you didn't want to play it because you have professed loudly and frequently how much you want to play old school games.
The reason I'm saying this is that your grouse about Everquest P99 is not something you could not have overcome had you wanted to actually play the game. I've never found any issue with the UI and I was able to map everything to my mouse which is my favourite thing these days since I discovered multi button mice. I have doubts your inability to play has much to do with the UI. I just wish you would be honest about that.
This was only further demonstrated when you complained about FFXI. I do admit that the fact that you cannot see the UI until you hit alt, control or shift not sure which key, then it will pop on to the screen is a little disconcerting. However it wasn't something you could not have overcome with a little effort on your part. There wasn't any other problem with that game either except like Everquest these games do employ older UIs. An inconvenience someone with an actual desire to play them will find easy to accept.
In spite of your constant protestations that you enjoy old school games what you want is a game like WoW which isn't old school. That is the game you're comfortable in and quite honestly I don't see any issue with that. You don't have to prove anything to anyone and you do not have to malign P99 and call it a crap game because you could not like it.
Perhaps you found it unfathomable that your dear wish to play an old school game came face to face with the reality that they were not a lot of fun after all. These games are hard to like and may be you're right only us old veterans who played them originally like them however when I last played on P99 quite a few new players were on the forums who had never played Everquest were thrilled about the game and enjoying it.
I know you cherish your position on these forums as some sort of straight talker who is telling us all about what old school is and it would be embarrassing for you to admit you didn't like the old school games. I can see your quandary. I hope I am not giving your dictionary a workout.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Routinely critiquing and dismissing everything you dislike while endlessly professing that which you do to be the only true path is a worn out gimmick.
It takes themepark elements from Everquest and distills them down to very easily digested bits.
A themepark game is a game where you solely run developer made content. Essentially "quests, raids, battlegrounds for points or whatever."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WoW couldn't be any more theme park. Your level limits where you can go at all early on, and where you can progress effectively later on. Characters are locked into whatever narrow band of content is currently applicable to them, moving from one to another in orderly fashion from first level to the current maximum, whereupon they are largely confined to the gerbil wheel of the latest released endgame content.
Well WoW is considerably different than Warcraft 3
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Were you to check carefully you would sometimes find me arguing opposite positions, especially on the topic of whether modern MMORPGs suck, are dead etc. or not.
Every once in a while an old thread gets dredged up and I'm surprised to read some of the arguments I made back then.
More than once I've beaten both sides of a dead horse, I just change sticks.
What I focus mostly on is when others attempt to post their opinions or recollections as absolute facts which cannot be argued against.
Like a moth drawn to flame, I'll search the internet, employ a variety of forum chat techniques or tricks to disprove their assertions and reveal the "truth," as I see it of course.
In short, much like my Grandfather before me, I enjoy a good argument, regardless of topic, but others sometimes view my efforts as
Finally, keep in mind, for me it's almost never personal, but I will confess my dark heart enjoys winding up people who clearly show great passion on a subject.
Why? Because I don't think gaming is a worthy subject to be passionate about so it's up to me to show them the error of their ways.
Or maybe, I'm just an asshole.
Sing it Ronnie
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Second you accomplished TWO things not just ONE at the same time. You trashed WoW and made themparks sound real bad..... very crafty on your part
Last, I was about to understand what a thempark is by your definition until two post down we get another definition.... It's like this community does not really have a definition and still confused.
Until a good consensus is made.... I'll have to assume it's EVERY GAME, unless you start off naked with a rock in your hand and beat a tree with it to get some water in the middle of a desert to have enough stamina to fight the only snake in visible distance with the same rock...... And if the game has a single quest, then it's back to be considered a thempark...... Right ?... Did I nail it ?
Sandbox lists typically include UO, AC2, SWG, EVE, LiF, Darkfall, Ryzom, ED
Themepark list, WOW, EQ2, SWTOR, LotRO, AoC, Aion, FFXIV, TSW, GW2, ESO, and many more.
There's a lot of gray of course, so games like EQ1, Lineage 1/2, FFXI, New World don't fit neatly into either category, and for sure there are some who will argue a particular game belongs on the other list.
My view on sandboxes is like this, 'you know them when you play them' as the experience is far less directed.
Players often find themselves struggling to figure a direction to go as they aren't designed to push a player towards any specific path, unlike theme parks which clearly provide an optimal path which exists even if players choose to ignore it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
At the time I thought that some of that could be incorporated into new mmorpg's, such as giving backstory to a quest as opposed to just going to a field to grind.
Sadly, my wish was fulfilled.
lastly, somewhere on this site is a large thread entitled "Sandbox vs Themepark" or some such thing where people go back and forth arguing what are the definitions of each.
I don't recall anyone ever saying that World of Warcraft was anything "but" a theme park."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I was speaking of WoW in general as the theme park nature of the game has been consistent throughout so far as I know.
I wasn't trashing WoW, simply describing the nature of it. Seeing as WoW still has a large number of players what they do remains quite popular.
Gaming definitions and consensus are infrequent bedfellows.
Your description is more applicable to a survival game than anything else.
My shorthand view of the difference is this: If the game drives the players it is a theme park. If the players drive the game it is a sandbox.
Thanks
I guess like theamparks then,
First gen games must be in-between, because Yes, they have prebuilt cities, the quest are in the form of guides that suggest you can search something out if you choose.
Is EQ1 sandbox or thempark ?... Seems somewhat of a gray area, but leaning towards theampark in some ways. I guess it doesn't matter much if it is in a gray area. it's just a word anyway.