Ashes of Creation: Bulwark on the Battlefield - Tank Alpha One Preview | MMORPG.com

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Ashes of Creation: Bulwark on the Battlefield - Tank Alpha One Preview | MMORPG.com

As the heart of any good unit, a Tank knows their duty and strength lie at the front lines of the fray. All around them, the battle ebbs and flows with the steady beating of that heart. Check out this exclusive developer journal from the Ashes of Creation team.

Read the full story here

Nanfoodle

I do love the flare they are doing with their class skills.

Slapshot1188

IMHO Warhammer Online had the best PvP tank implementation.  To work properly you need collision detection.

Xatsh

The game is PvX, not pure pvp. You fight world bosses, dungeon bosses and such just as you do other players.

Threat generation is needed for party non-pvp activities. This is also without modifying sub classes as alpha 1 does not have the sub class system. Tank/cleric or tank/bard very well could augment defensive traits to party. We just do not know yet

Truvidienn

I wonder if they'll showcase each race.

Blastoize

Truvidienn said:

I wonder if they'll showcase each race.

Dont worry these are just skills 1-10, you need to wait 10+ classes videos about skills 1-10 and then you will see race video, but probably not because they need to show each class skill videos 10-20, then 20-30, 30-40,40-50, 10 videos about game design + tons of jpgs to buy, new website livestream, then video behind scenes then video behind of behind scenes, video about upcoming features which they gonna make poll and wont care about votes, new ui, polishing, apocalypse 2.0 because why not they need more testing, video about new staff because again why not, why not hire 2 community managers for prealpha and then need more cms for alpha and then maybe you gonna see race video.

And race videos is going to be about race by race talking about passive skills then new series of race videos talking about race mounts, another one for race spawns etc etc etc and no steven is not roberts brother!

Xatsh

Ashes is not a PvP game though. Never been advertised as one. It is an open world group centric PvX game focused on risk vs reward. And you have to have pve related abilites to make pve work. If it was pure PvP then I would agree with you.

And stuff like no real tanks and healers does not work in pve at all especially when the focus is group play. At least I have yet to see it work in any PvE activity in a mmo before.

Wizardry

Looks good visually but a couple names used did not make any sense.
Javelin as we all know is a throwing spear which is does but the rest is a grappling hook idea NOT a spear idea.So as javelin i would give it some other added ability and NOT the grappling hook idea.

Myrmidon makes zero sense,you strike your target and that creates more mitigation,umm just adding an ability for the sake of adding an ability?If i was going to create higher mitigation abilities i would do it through SHIELD use or give another class the ability to cast magic armor on the tank which will mitigate magic and if need be anotehr magic spell to mitigate physical damage.Simply swinging your word should not give mitigation lol.

I am ok with the other abilities and pacing of the animations also seems to be really good.

However how is the balance in group play,are these TOO many abilities,what if 5 players all used the ability to make the enemies fall that would lock down the enemy infinitely.

Wizardry

I will add this,USUALLY when i see stuff showcased in games for the past 10 years i am immediately turned off by stupidity of design,animations,graphics like scantilly clad maidens in high heels nonsense but this is more up my alley of doing it right.
All they need to do is make sure ideas MAKE SENSE,don'tjust add a term and attach an ability because you want to,put some reasoning/logic in to the ideas.

Slapshot1188

Torval said:

If it has free and open PvP then it is a PvP game. Lineage 1 and 2 have the same PvPvE hybrid nature, but are still considered PvP games.

What does "real" even mean? Real as in how you see it? No. There can be dedicated tank/meat shield/defensive roles without artificial threat. "Threat" is a mechanic to prop up horribly stupid mob AI.

The problem with a threat/taunt mechanics is that is creates a skill, tactics, and strategy division between pve and pvp. Instead of that mobs should have good AI and make intelligent decisions prioritizing targets. Taunts and threat basically override what should amount to smart AI forcing mobs to make dumb decisions so DPS can burn them down. It's a simplistic and dated design. It's the main factor in dungeon and raid content being so dead simple.

When buffs, debuffs, and control are in play players can use tactics against both mobs and players. Mobs become another reckoning force on the battlefield along with players. If this game is anything worth its salt pvp and pve activities won't be separate. Players in a dungeon, facing a boss/raid mob, or doing any activity will have to be ready for pvp. It should be a natural part of the game play.

Totally agree.  And that dumb AI is also why mobs and bosses have ridiculous HP... which then drives the need for ridiculous DPS.  Its why its very very hard to be a game that excels at both.

Nanfoodle

Torval said:

Threat in a pvp game.... clueless bus pulling into crazy town *toot toot*.

How should it work? Meat shields should provide buffs/debuffs for their party and mob AI should be smart enough to calculate priority targets.

By going with a "threat" model it tells me these guys don't even have their heads in the right space when it comes to pvp. This is a PVP game but a lot of what I'm seeing regarding class design seems to built for PVE. What exactly are they thinking?

I dont pay allot of attention to the information on tanks, as I rarely play one. I do remember them saying that taunt/threat will play a roll in PvP. What it was I dont remember. May have been something like, a debuff that lowered the targets DPS by allot unless you attck the taunter. Also tanks will be CC in the battle field, with stuns. They are designed to change the shape of a battle field. Also there is collision in the game. Having tanks up front that can mitigate lots of damage while CCing. Will be a big thing. They will be viable in PvP and PvE.

Also, you have to remember you can pick 2 classes on one char and picking something like a Tank/Mage or a Tank/Rogue will play very differently then someone who picks a Tank/Tank.

Nanfoodle

Torval said:

If it has free and open PvP then it is a PvP game. Lineage 1 and 2 have the same PvPvE hybrid nature, but are still considered PvP games.

What does "real" even mean? Real as in how you see it? No. There can be dedicated tank/meat shield/defensive roles without artificial threat. "Threat" is a mechanic to prop up horribly stupid mob AI.

The problem with a threat/taunt mechanics is that is creates a skill, tactics, and strategy division between pve and pvp. Instead of that mobs should have good AI and make intelligent decisions prioritizing targets. Taunts and threat basically override what should amount to smart AI forcing mobs to make dumb decisions so DPS can burn them down. It's a simplistic and dated design. It's the main factor in dungeon and raid content being so dead simple.

When buffs, debuffs, and control are in play players can use tactics against both mobs and players. Mobs become another reckoning force on the battlefield along with players. If this game is anything worth its salt pvp and pve activities won't be separate. Players in a dungeon, facing a boss/raid mob, or doing any activity will have to be ready for pvp. It should be a natural part of the game play.

Ashes is a PvP game and everything is being designed around conflict. Steven has said clearly they will not be changing the focus of this game. PvP, large scale battles. Players will need to rely on other players to get most content done. There will be solo play but it will be limiting.

Nanfoodle

Combat in this game will be very much a attack skills and every attack of every class will have counter skills on another class. Not every class will have the counter for another class skills. This is part of the interdependency. Threat/Taunt will be just one skill set that does not counter everything when it comes to aggro, player or NPC. This was from Steven mouth when speaking about all skills. All skills have a counter skill.

Groqstrong

This game is looking really promising.

Nanfoodle

For people saying this is not a PvP game. Pls read about their flagging system. It becomes clear fast.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

Slapshot1188

Rhoklaw said:

As many PvP and PvE and hybrids of both that I've played, DAoC was probably the most fun of any game. As far as I remember, there was no collision detection in RvR and players still managed to use tactics to some degree without having to rely on a threat crutch.

As someone who played a tank (Hero) for a long time in DAoC at launch... I can assure you that they sucked at PvP.   Some tweaks were made which made it somewhat better like giving the ability to gain Mez immunity via Realm Rank skills but Warhammer's implementation of tanks was far superior.  And this is coming from someone that still thinks DAOC was the best game they ever played.

Slapshot1188

Nanfoodle said:

Torval said:

If it has free and open PvP then it is a PvP game. Lineage 1 and 2 have the same PvPvE hybrid nature, but are still considered PvP games.

What does "real" even mean? Real as in how you see it? No. There can be dedicated tank/meat shield/defensive roles without artificial threat. "Threat" is a mechanic to prop up horribly stupid mob AI.

The problem with a threat/taunt mechanics is that is creates a skill, tactics, and strategy division between pve and pvp. Instead of that mobs should have good AI and make intelligent decisions prioritizing targets. Taunts and threat basically override what should amount to smart AI forcing mobs to make dumb decisions so DPS can burn them down. It's a simplistic and dated design. It's the main factor in dungeon and raid content being so dead simple.

When buffs, debuffs, and control are in play players can use tactics against both mobs and players. Mobs become another reckoning force on the battlefield along with players. If this game is anything worth its salt pvp and pve activities won't be separate. Players in a dungeon, facing a boss/raid mob, or doing any activity will have to be ready for pvp. It should be a natural part of the game play.

Ashes is a PvP game and everything is being designed around conflict. Steven has said clearly they will not be changing the focus of this game. PvP, large scale battles. Players will need to rely on other players to get most content done. There will be solo play but it will be limiting.

And this is the dilemma of the unreleased MMORPG.  Fans will paint all their hopes and dreams on the canvas.  Right in this very thread you have people saying "It's NOT a PvP game" and others saying "It IS a PvP game".  

This is why inevitably... games are always better on paper.  Once they release reality hits and people find out that "their" vision of the game is not what actually exists.

Slapshot1188

Torval said:

Nanfoodle said:

For people saying this is not a PvP game. Pls read about their flagging system. It becomes clear fast.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

Good video. This is an evolution of the system mechanics introduced in Lineage 1 and subsequently carried over to Lineage 2. This has been the only MMORPG PvP system I've really enjoyed. It is one of the big strong points in their design in my opinion.

I do like the fact that you can attack anyone.  That always drives me nuts when people have flags that let them attack you and then 5 minutes thats have a flag that is Peace or whatever so they can dance around you. 

It will be really interesting to see how the whole Combatant vs Corrupted stuff works out because I can see guilds just designating the Kill squad that finishes folks off while the rest do the bulk of the damage but stay as Combatants.

If there is one thing we KNOW with 100% accuracy, its that PvP players will stress every system in every imaginable way to find that one corner case that gets them an edge.

Nanfoodle

Torval said:

Nanfoodle said:

For people saying this is not a PvP game. Pls read about their flagging system. It becomes clear fast.



https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

Good video. This is an evolution of the system mechanics introduced in Lineage 1 and subsequently carried over to Lineage 2. This has been the only MMORPG PvP system I've really enjoyed. It is one of the big strong points in their design in my opinion.

Ya Ashes has many Linage fans and when I saw this for the first time I thought of you Torval.

Wizardry

I hate to say it but NO,the level of intelligence of the npc enemies should be determined through common sense and NOT evedry mob should have high intelligence theory.

if it is considered a somewhat intelligent sentient being then sure ,give it some intelligent scripting.it is simply a Wolf or bear then it doesn't have high IQ intellignce and WOULD react to the first person creating HATE and likely remain on the most hated foe determined by pain/damage.

Think about it,if some dude is smashing a bear with a sword and another dude is off to the side spitting a pee shooter,the bear is going to remain locked on the sword dude OR retreat.The problem with retreat is it depends on the TYPE of game as to weather it would work or not.

For example In Atlas the mob AI is quite realistic and works but if that was done in a mmorpg i am pretty sure loads of complaints would come in.In Atlas it is more of a HUNT while in mmorpgs it is more of a rinse and repeat mechanic.

Hatefull

So...lineage 3. I remember how lineage 2 went and I am not doing that again. This game will be forgotten weeks after launch.

Nanfoodle

Wizardry said:

I hate to say it but NO,the level of intelligence of the npc enemies should be determined through common sense and NOT evedry mob should have high intelligence theory.

if it is considered a somewhat intelligent sentient being then sure ,give it some intelligent scripting.it is simply a Wolf or bear then it doesn't have high IQ intellignce and WOULD react to the first person creating HATE and likely remain on the most hated foe determined by pain/damage.

Think about it,if some dude is smashing a bear with a sword and another dude is off to the side spitting a pee shooter,the bear is going to remain locked on the sword dude OR retreat.The problem with retreat is it depends on the TYPE of game as to weather it would work or not.

For example In Atlas the mob AI is quite realistic and works but if that was done in a mmorpg i am pretty sure loads of complaints would come in.In Atlas it is more of a HUNT while in mmorpgs it is more of a rinse and repeat mechanic.

Taunt has never worked that way even in games as old as EQ. Threat was always something you had to watch for. I tank never had a magic taunt skill that made an NPC only attack them. DPS, Healers, CCers always had to calculate how much aggro a tank could keep.

We see AI in modern MMOs like Pantheon, ESO that have NPCs working together and often ignoring taunt to attack just the healer or the support class because thats the smart atcion to take. Ashes has talked about NPC perception of their surroundings, this is highly important as as nodes progress, the world changes.

Outposts become villages, villages become towns and the end major cities. Without an in depth AI, the amount of scripting needed for each NPC would get out of hand. Ashes has not gotten in depth about their combat AI for mobs but I cant see this end up being a area they will fail at, as the tech today makes this much easier to add to a game.

Matter of fact, devs have said that Ai is easiest part of making the game today. They could ramp up the AI to the point, no human could win. Often Devs need to dumb down things, so the average gamer will have fun.

This is a trinity game and a keystone of the trinity combat is taunt. How well Ashes develops that skill is what will matter. Not that the game does or does not have it. IMO, wait and see. Alpha one is here and the promise of much more steaming from players is coming soon.

Nanfoodle

Hatefull said:

So...lineage 3. I remember how lineage 2 went and I am not doing that again. This game will be forgotten weeks after launch.

You do realize you can take the flagging system from from a game and it not be the same game? Much like WoW was an EQ clone but was very different.

Morgenes83

Torval said:

Xatsh said:

The game is PvX, not pure pvp. You fight world bosses, dungeon bosses and such just as you do other players.



Threat generation is needed for party non-pvp activities.

This is also without modifying sub classes as alpha 1 does not have the sub class system. Tank/cleric or tank/bard very well could augment defensive traits to party. We just do not know yet

It is bad design in a pvp game because it introduces a skill set that is useless in pvp. This will make some tanks totally useless, or their skills useless in a lot of situations. It means the class will constantly be in a balance predicament.

Artificial threat isn't the only way tactical defense can be done. It's the easiest laziest way to design "tanks" and battlefield control, but it isn't the best.

While I also don't like this boring approach of only threat generating skills and would rather have some more different skills, e.g. block AOE damage behind you, shield your secondary friendly target, take damage from group, CC, .... It doesn't necessarily mean that those skills are useless for PvP.

You can still have some debuffs like taunted which may have one or multiple effects like: loose your current target, do less damage, receive more damage, ...

You just need to change the effect of threat when it is affecting a player character.

Mackaveli44

Torval said:

Threat in a pvp game.... clueless bus pulling into crazy town *toot toot*.

How should it work? Meat shields should provide buffs/debuffs for their party and mob AI should be smart enough to calculate priority targets.

By going with a "threat" model it tells me these guys don't even have their heads in the right space when it comes to pvp. This is a PVP game but a lot of what I'm seeing regarding class design seems to built for PVE. What exactly are they thinking?

It's an alpha aka lots of stuff is still changing and probably includes everything shown in this video.

Jumping to conclusions based on an early alpha video is no bueno my friend. And, I personally hope they don't shove PvP related stuff down our throats because it's already been proven that PvP based games really don't work. You HAVE to have a solid PvE experience with PvP tacked on as secondary. If its the other way around, its a recipe for disaster, as we've seen in countless PvP MMO's.

Scot

Torval said:

Xatsh said:

The game is PvX, not pure pvp. You fight world bosses, dungeon bosses and such just as you do other players.



Threat generation is needed for party non-pvp activities.

This is also without modifying sub classes as alpha 1 does not have the sub class system. Tank/cleric or tank/bard very well could augment defensive traits to party. We just do not know yet

It is bad design in a pvp game because it introduces a skill set that is useless in pvp. This will make some tanks totally useless, or their skills useless in a lot of situations. It means the class will constantly be in a balance predicament.

Artificial threat isn't the only way tactical defense can be done. It's the easiest laziest way to design "tanks" and battlefield control, but it isn't the best.

It won't be an issue as long as the skill set is seen as separate and for PvE. Unfortunately as we have often seen before these two skill sets are not considered separate. For example whatever class gets the threat generation skill should not have less skills for PvP. The way to balance this would be that all classes had a PvE skill say stunning, traps, etc that they do not get to use in PvP. If they don't see that tanks will either become regarded as underpowered or they will try to buff the other tank powers to make up for the deficit and that can easily go wrong.